Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[EODM07]

GGs

You've improved so much from the last time we played. Keep it up.

Thanks. I seem to still struggle against zoning and aerial combat.
I wouldn't say I was facing against Din's Fire spam, since you were mixing it up, but I can tell you've improved a lot too, even though you've got school work and all that.

Also, did you go Kirby because I mentioned I'm considering using him?

 

[TTTTTsd]

GGs

You've improved so much from the last time we played. Keep it up.

We def need to play again. Dunno if I've gotten better or worse, but we had a lot of fun last time! When would you be willing to strike gloves yet again, sire?!

 

[Macchiato]

Thanks. I seem to still struggle against zoning and aerial combat.
I wouldn't say I was facing against Din's Fire spam, since you were mixing it up, but I can tell you've improved a lot too, even though you've got school work and all that.

Also, did you go Kirby because I mentioned I'm considering using him?

Yeah, my playstyle has really changed into a zoning/camping zelda.

maybe

 

[EODM07]

Yeah, my playstyle has really changed into a zoning/camping zelda.

maybe

I'm a bit disappointed I cannot upload my only win, due to it being 5 seconds over the time limit. D:
Oh well, might as well stick to uploading one loss which was kind of a close game.

I do feel like I might have to mix up my SH Side B a bit, since it's starting to becoming a bit of an auto-pilot thing for me. But if it does connect, it's a great set-up for Falling UAir > UTilt.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, my playstyle has really changed into a zoning/camping zelda.

maybe

Also glad to see you're still sticking it with Zelda!

Yes I still play Doc but I work on my Mario as well. I've decided that playing both is beneficial due to select Matchup coverage. It's worked out so far.

 

[Koiba]

Macchiato

I want to play yew again sometime sis

And then get destroyed



Please~?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Macchiato

I want to play yew again sometime sis

And then get destroyed



Please~? View attachment 87251

Same here, although maybe not get destroyed, who knows~.

Nice to see you back regardless, though.

 

[Macchiato]

Macchiato

I want to play yew again sometime sis

And then get destroyed



Please~? View attachment 87251

Of course sis, soon

 

[EODM07]

I'm still glad that I've improved a lot with Lucina though. Gotta thank TTTTTsd , evmaxy54 and @Rinku リンク for the help with improving my Lucina.

I think she's becoming my best character now. Just gotta keep playing like that and not lose my cool...

Oh the hell with it. Might as well do it.

And so that I "♪DON'T LOSE YOUR WAY~!♪".

 

[Antonykun]

who here has a 3ds and wants to smash with me?

 

[evmaxy54]

I'm very familiar with her attack ranges, I tried to pick her up as a secondary a few times (end lag + questionable kill setups are too much for me though) and spent a good deal of lab time with her.

My problem's harder to explain, I guess. Like...I'll identify threats and patterns and consciously think about them, but then...not actually do the things I'm thinking? A good example would be the last time I played (which I think was like 3 weeks ago if we don't count labbing), I got matched against this decent-but-predictable G&W. The first time I tried to punish his landing with usmash he double jumped, and I said to myself "Alright, he probably likes double jumping for landing fakeouts. Just wait next time and punish him when he doesn't have his jump." Second landing trap situation, I follow him to scare him into burning his double jump, and when he falls into usmash range...I hit the usmash again even though I expected it to whiff, and sure enough he double jumps. "Okay, that was dumb, but that confirms he likes double jump. Just go for a uair immediately next time and catch his dj." Except no, I still usmashed the third time, and the fourth time, and the fifth time, and dropped the game with him at kill percent last stock because even though I caught on to a fatally punishable recovery habit and was focused on punishes for it I just completely failed to do the thing.

my hands are dumb lol

What's your control setup? Because your G&W story sounds more like a case of poor execution as opposed to executing poor ideas (which aren't remotely related to one another).

 

[Lavani]

What's your control setup? Because your G&W story sounds more like a case of poor execution as opposed to executing poor ideas.

Default controls, I don't have any problems with the layout (aside from sh lemons as Megaman, but I've gotten a lot better at that lately too).

My execution's been poor or at best inconsistent in every game I've ever played. My hands are dumb lol

 

[Ffamran]

Oh, wow... Now I know what's off about Zelda's blonde alt: her skin. She's pale which is whatever, but she has this "greenish" tinge that makes her look sickly. I don't know if its the lighting or what. Weird since her official render, art... thing has not-sickly skin and more like in Brawl and her other appearances where she's healthy-looking. Then again, Link's eyes looked normal for that, but in-game for the Wii U version, his eyes look really weird. Also, Fox having the blue-grey fur for his purple-blue alt also looks kind of weird. Yes, there are grey foxes, but they're not completely grey nor are they blue-grey. An arctic fox look might have been cooler. Or it could have been left alone and we'd be fine with regular red fox Fox in a purple-blue outfit.

 

[evmaxy54]

Default controls, I don't have any problems with the layout (aside from sh lemons as Megaman, but I've gotten a lot better at that lately too).

My execution's been poor or at best inconsistent in every game I've ever played. My hands are dumb lol

If you mess up execution, that should be end of your thinking of it. If you mess up consistently, go into the lab & grind it out. No point of thinking about it whilst playing in a game, it's just gonna keep you from playing it.

When practicing, calm yourself & focus on what your hands are doing. Focus on the motions that they're doing & how it feels. Even if it's something so basic as an Uair, grind it out & just feel how to perform it. Do this for 5-10 mins straight then stop & do something else

 

[Space Stranger]

I'm done

Ness's latest mixtape was definitely PK Fire. Lucas killed it with his lines.

 

[Cress!]

I went full BAN ZELDA over at SqB.

Yes, you did.
But I already know to BAN•ZELDA, you didn't have to remind me.
Unless you were spreading it on other threads, hmm?

 

[Lil Puddin]

Videos of the day. C:

Spoiler: All Zelda users IRL

Spoiler: Temmie Flakes

Yes, you did.
But I already know to BAN•ZELDA, you didn't have to remind me.
Unless you were spreading it on other threads, hmm?

Spreading da wurd, so it could be hurd. That's all we can ask for dis Sassmas.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Okay, is something going over my head? Because I'm seriously failing to see how Zelda is one of the worst characters in the game. I don't see how a character with multiple reliable kill options against even heavy characters at 70% is bad.

 

[EODM07]

Okay, is something going over my head? Because I'm seriously failing to see how Zelda is one of the worst characters in the game. I don't see how a character with multiple reliable kill options against even heavy characters at 70% is bad.

She's one of the worst because of how much sass she has.

She has so much that she needs to get banned.

 

[evmaxy54]

Okay, is something going over my head? Because I'm seriously failing to see how Zelda is one of the worst characters in the game. I don't see how a character with multiple reliable kill options against even heavy characters at 70% is bad.

So can Ganon. He's also considered one of the worst characters in the game.

Both characters have highly significant problems that p much kill their viability & overshadows whatever positives they do have.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Okay, is something going over my head? Because I'm seriously failing to see how Zelda is one of the worst characters in the game. I don't see how a character with multiple reliable kill options against even heavy characters at 70% is bad.

They aren't very reliable tbh. The elevator can be DI'd and LKs can do more harm to yourself than your opponent.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Okay, is something going over my head? Because I'm seriously failing to see how Zelda is one of the worst characters in the game. I don't see how a character with multiple reliable kill options against even heavy characters at 70% is bad.

you're right everyone here is just bad at the game i truly believe zelda is really broken

therefruit we must start the BAN•ZELDA movement to prevent people from abusing this cheap character in tourneys

let us pray in the daddy sakurai circle that zelda gets removed from the game in 3 days :^)

 

[Rickster]

Okay, is something going over my head? Because I'm seriously failing to see how Zelda is one of the worst characters in the game. I don't see how a character with multiple reliable kill options against even heavy characters at 70% is bad.

She's better than most people say she is, but she still has significant flaws that make her a bottom 5 (maybe 7 if you're feeling generous) character.

-bad MUs against some of the most common characters
-defensive play makes it extremely difficult for her to do anything, as she has no good approach and below average frame data
- generally bad mobility
- bad/situational projectiles
- lacking neutral game
- air game is weak save for Nair, which doesn't have enough vertical range
- terrible landing options all around. Perhaps one of her biggest weaknesses

That's all I can think of for now. To me, her lack of landing options and inability to deal with hyper defensive playstyles are her biggest flaws. Oh, and top tiers.

That's not to say she's completely useless though. She has good qualities, like her KO power, combo/string game, priority, range, OoS options, recovery, offstage game, and some of the strongest punishes in the game (lol@40% Elevator). Abusing rage works wonders with her. But if you can't get in or you're being overwhelmed with attacks (aka offensive Sheik,ZSS, Falcon etc), you can't do...any of that stuff.

If you put a lot of dedication into her, she can actually be quite competent, as can any character. But the amount of time it takes to actually be good with her isn't worth the payoff. That's why all the Zelda mains are masochists.

 

[EODM07]

If you put a lot of dedication into her, she can actually be quite competent, as can any character. But the amount of time it takes to actually be good with her isn't worth the payoff. That's why all the Zelda mains are masochists.

But @|ven| got 33rd at EVO.

That's really good for Zelda. Shame he missed out on Top 32 though. Oh well, fingers crossed for GENESIS 3.

 

[Lavani]

- terrible landing options all around. Perhaps one of her biggest weaknesses

Is she really worse in that aspect than most of the cast? Lots of characters have poor aerials for landing with, Zelda at least has Nayru's, B-reverse Phantom, or if you're well-practiced with its range/physics FW ledge cancel becomes a mixup option too.

 

[evmaxy54]

Is she really worse in that aspect than most of the cast? Lots of characters have poor aerials for landing with, Zelda at least has Nayru's, B-reverse Phantom, or if you're well-practiced with its range/physics FW ledge cancel becomes a mixup option too.

Being floaty & having slow aerial speed are two strikes off the bat. Nayru's is incredibly laggy & loses to anything with a lingering hitbox. Phantom is also really laggy plus the momentum change from B-reverse/wavebouncing isn't all that great because of Zelda's aerial speed. And FW ledge cancels require a specific position to be at & sometimes a specific direction, huge risk between SD'ing or going into huge amounts of lag if we miss the ledge, takes a while to disappear (about 20 frames).

 

[Lavani]

Phantom is also really laggy plus the momentum change from B-reverse/wavebouncing isn't all that great because of Zelda's aerial speed.

It feels a hell of a lot better than Rosa's B-reverse Star Bits and actually puts out a phantom+hitbox instead of just leaving luma in the air shooting stars at nothing. If we consider that a valuable landing mixup I feel like you're way underrating Phantom. (edit: the more I experiment with this the more jealous I get, I'd love this on Rosa)

Nayru's may be unsafe when anticipated but it's still an option. Very few characters can throw out an airborne move with invincibility to beat anti-airs, it's not something to completely disregard.

FW ledge cancel is risky and takes a hell of a lot of skill but if I mained Zelda it's definitely something I would lab hard.

 

[Rion]

It feels a hell of a lot better than Rosa's

But Rosalina is actually a f'ing amazing character. Yeahhh...

 

[Lavani]

But Rosalina is actually a f'ing amazing character. Yeahhh...

Which says to me that Zelda's landing options aren't as bad as they're being made out to be.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Which says to me that Zelda's landing options aren't as bad as they're being made out to be.

Banned for showing optimism instead of penissism

 

[Lorde]

Does LL count as a landing option for Rosalinda? Once the patches stop and the metagame can stabilize, I believe that all (or at least most) of Rosalinda's landings should use LL because it's such a useful tool. I don't want to sound like a knock-off cultist or anything, but Rosalinda's potential is only partially tapped as of now. I'd imagine her being terrifying in a few years.

Of course, anti-Luma tactics are going to get better and better, but Rosalinda players are also going to get better at protecting Luma. Hopefully it gets to the point where she becomes an aggressive and pressure-based character, instead timing out everyone like she is now.

Too bad that like 99.9% of Rosalinda mains are waifuf** trash.

 

[Rion]

Which says to me that Zelda's landing options aren't as bad as they're being made out to be.

Errr, I'm not entirely sure about this.

I mean, let's look at what exactly she has:

Fair/Bair is pretty risky, even riskier if you don't sweetspot (which while trying to land on the ground might be pretty rough). Not to mention the horrendous landing lag.

Nair is definitely not safe on shield, nor has any good coverage below her.

Dair could be okay, but again is not safe on shield and if trading with someone (if at all), you're still kinda stuck in the same situation as before.

Din's is out of the question.

Farore's to the ground or to a ledge can be okay! Though against faster / ranged characters this won't really fly so well. Teleporting into them can be a surprise attack once or twice, but they probably won't fall for it much more after that.

Phantom's can be circumvented by running behind her, or just being directly below her. Or I mean, you could just hit her too since she'd be a complete sitting duck while charging...

Nayru's can be okay, and at least you have a little invul? But there's no vertical range to hit people below her, and if you get shielded/use it too early, it's gonna hurt. It's risky!

I almost feel like it's best for Zelda to not try and retaliate and just get back her footing asap in this situation. Either that or try and get to the ledge so at the very least your opponent has to guess your get up option which is less risky than her options while airborne and trying to land.

She just doesn't have any really good solid answers for people attacking her from below. At best they're a bit of a crapshoot/require you to pray that it works and hope your opponent reacted badly, which is... not good for you!

That's all just off the top of my head of course.

 

[FullMoon]

So I ended up going to an anime con with my sister because she really wanted to go but my dad would only let her go if I went with her and after I initially refused she got all sad and started to cry because she has been doing nothing at all at home for like a month and this was like the only thing she could go to with her friend. Since I'm a pushover I ended up going with her because I wanted to see her happy.

As it turns out there's a Smash area in the building so I stayed there while she did stuff with her friend. They were doing a small tournament there so I decided to join in. There was actually a lot of good players there, including Brazil's best Sm4sh player.

I ended up getting 2nd, not dropping a game until I ran into said player who proceeded to 3-0 me with Sheik (and forcing me to switch from Greninja to Lucas after 2-stocking me game 1 as a desperate measure that didn't quite work but I managed to do better still) and then later at GF I lost 3-1 going only Greninja and they were all pretty close matches overall.

The guy was really chill too, after I played with him he said he really liked my Greninja and gave me some tips about bad habits I had that I need to work on and we even played some friendlies with each other. His Sheik was really good too, he caught up to my habits really quick and overwhelming me really badly at first.

So yeah I ended up having a lot more fun than I thought I would and got to meet and talk with some really nice people. Good karma, I guess.

/deardiary

 

[Rickster]

Is she really worse in that aspect than most of the cast? Lots of characters have poor aerials for landing with, Zelda at least has Nayru's, B-reverse Phantom, or if you're well-practiced with its range/physics FW ledge cancel becomes a mixup option too.

Well its just that...they're all so risky and laggy. You choose an option, and if it doesn't work, you'll probably get punished hard for it. It's like a game of chance, lol.

Phantom works pretty well against any character that doesn't have super fast ground speed (or a reflector) at least. I use it quite often, but not B-Reversed.

I usually just Dair on my way down, since it seems to beat out a TON of Uairs for some reason (exceptions include ones like Rosalinda's and Palutena's). If that doesn't work, I might try doing an empty landing into a Jab, Dtilt, or dodge. If that still isn't working I just go for the ledge, snapping from above if possible.

Ok, they might not be THAT bad, but they're still bad. Especially compared to characters like Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Mario, etc.

 

[Antonykun]

So I ended up going to an anime con with my sister because she really wanted to go but my dad would only let her go if I went with her and after I initially refused she got all sad and started to cry because she has been doing nothing at all at home for like a month and this was like the only thing she could go to with her friend. Since I'm a pushover I ended up going with her because I wanted to see her happy.

As it turns out there's a Smash area in the building so I stayed there while she did stuff with her friend. They were doing a small tournament there so I decided to join in. There was actually a lot of good players there, including Brazil's best Sm4sh player.

I ended up getting 2nd, not dropping a game until I ran into said player who proceeded to 3-0 me with Sheik (and forcing me to switch from Greninja to Lucas after 2-stocking me game 1 as a desperate measure that didn't quite work but I managed to do better still) and then later at GF I lost 3-1 going only Greninja and they were all pretty close matches overall.

The guy was really chill too, after I played with him he said he really liked my Greninja and gave me some tips about bad habits I had that I need to work on and we even played some friendlies with each other. His Sheik was really good too, he caught up to my habits really quick and overwhelming me really badly at first.

So yeah I ended up having a lot more fun than I thought I would and got to meet and talk with some really nice people. Good karma, I guess.

/deardiary

I love how you went undefeated until you met Greninja's natural predator

 

[McKnightlíght]

So I ended up going to an anime con with my sister because she really wanted to go but my dad would only let her go if I went with her and after I initially refused she got all sad and started to cry because she has been doing nothing at all at home for like a month and this was like the only thing she could go to with her friend. Since I'm a pushover I ended up going with her because I wanted to see her happy.

As it turns out there's a Smash area in the building so I stayed there while she did stuff with her friend. They were doing a small tournament there so I decided to join in. There was actually a lot of good players there, including Brazil's best Sm4sh player.

I ended up getting 2nd, not dropping a game until I ran into said player who proceeded to 3-0 me with Sheik (and forcing me to switch from Greninja to Lucas after 2-stocking me game 1 as a desperate measure that didn't quite work but I managed to do better still) and then later at GF I lost 3-1 going only Greninja and they were all pretty close matches overall.

The guy was really chill too, after I played with him he said he really liked my Greninja and gave me some tips about bad habits I had that I need to work on and we even played some friendlies with each other. His Sheik was really good too, he caught up to my habits really quick and overwhelming me really badly at first.

So yeah I ended up having a lot more fun than I thought I would and got to meet and talk with some really nice people. Good karma, I guess.

/deardiary

I wish I randomly ran into national Sm4sh tournaments....

 

[Lavani]

She just doesn't have any really good solid answers for people attacking her from below.

Well its just that...they're all so risky and laggy. You choose an option, and if it doesn't work, you'll probably get punished hard for it. It's like a game of chance, lol.

Phantom works pretty well against any character that doesn't have super fast ground speed (or a reflector) at least. I use it quite often, but not B-Reversed.

I usually just Dair on my way down, since it seems to beat out a TON of Uairs for some reason (exceptions include ones like Rosalinda's and Palutena's). If that doesn't work, I might try doing an empty landing into a Jab, Dtilt, or dodge. If that still isn't working I just go for the ledge, snapping from above if possible.

Ok, they might not be THAT bad, but they're still bad. Especially compared to characters like Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Mario, etc.

And how is this worse than if you were to play someone like ? Nobody, not a single character in the game, wants to be above their opponent. Some characters have burst movement such as Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, or Monkey Flip to help them escape the situation, and that's why they're top tiers. For everyone else, you have to figure out how to land past disjointed anti-airs, and that is pretty much universally "challenge it with something risky or throw them off with weaving and b-reverses" unless you're a puffball with multiple jumps "Zelda's landing options suck" is probably true as a general statement, but relative to the cast I can think of worse characters to be.

Ganondorf's run speed > Yoshi's air speed, for what that's worth.

Banned for showing optimism instead of penissism

I'm okay with calling a bad character bad, I'm not okay with acting like she's uniquely horrible at landing when she has more options than characters more viable than her.

Does LL count as a landing option for Rosalinda? Once the patches stop and the metagame can stabilize, I believe that all (or at least most) of Rosalinda's landings should use LL because it's such a useful tool. I don't want to sound like a knock-off cultist or anything, but Rosalinda's potential is only partially tapped as of now. I'd imagine her being terrifying in a few years.

Of course, anti-Luma tactics are going to get better and better, but Rosalinda players are also going to get better at protecting Luma. Hopefully it gets to the point where she becomes an aggressive and pressure-based character, instead timing out everyone like she is now.

Too bad that like 99.9% of Rosalinda mains are waifuf** trash.

If Luma's not dead and in a usable position and you can hit the autocancel so you don't get punished during landing lag and the opponent doesn't shield or use an attack that beats it out while you wait to fall to the ground before starting your attack, sure. The problem is that it requires Luma to be in a useful position and even then is about as useful position/frame-wise as ZSS falling into jab.

 

[Antonykun]

It's a sad day when you realize that Zelda has possible more realistic landing options than Swordfailure

 

[Rizen]

Link can do a lot to his opponent from above because Dair, Nair and bombs but I agree that in a disadvantaged state being above is a bad place for anyone. Zelda's landing options are not great but they are okay. Speaking as someone who plays Charizard, Ganon and Bowser, there are worse landers lol.

IMO Zelda's easily bottom 5. I think she wasn't designed for 1vs1s. She probably does much better in FFAs and gets a big wifi boost due to being less punishable.

 

[Lorde]

If Luma's not dead and in a usable position and you can hit the autocancel so you don't get punished during landing lag and the opponent doesn't shield or use an attack that beats it out while you wait to fall to the ground before starting your attack, sure. The problem is that it requires Luma to be in a useful position and even then is about as useful position/frame-wise as ZSS falling into jab.

LL is definitely situational, but when Luma's in a favorable position, I feel like it's almost required for you to LL. If timed correctly, it's literally a free hitbox. You can throw it out and shield immediately (after taking the required soft/hard landing lag, so I guess it's not free, but it's close). How many characters can throw out disjointed hitboxes with nearly 0 lag every time they land?

It's not like you can't throw out an aerial on your way down, and then LL after it ends. All you need is a single frame to LL. That's what I meant when I said that most of Rosalinda's landings will probably use LL in the future.

However, all the good aerials you'd want to LL are frame perfect, so that's a considerable barrier in the way of its accessibility and usefulness.