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Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

Berserker.

Berserker.

:^)
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The only character that feels blatantly better than the whole cast is Sheik but Sheik isn't anything like MK so it's alright. She's dumb and she definitely deserves a nerf but she isn't as overpowered as pre-patch cancer kong. All the top tiers have exploitable flaws. Like, I throw trash at Luigi for sure but tbh, he does have a lot of exploitable flaws which is why he never manages to ever reach top 8 in any national (aka: he's ass against lame gameplay). ZSS has a crap neutral and everyone knows that so whatever. Rosalina is over-reliant on Luma. Fox lacks safe options on shield. Sonic has a ****load of issues with landing. Captain Falcon's disadvantaged state is so horrendous (it's bad). Pikachu's range blows and it has trouble against players that box out. The top tiers (sans Sheik) aren't THAT better than the high tiers or, should I say the supposed high tiers. You still see characters from the high tiers get results like Mario or MK. Mid-tiers are noticeably worse than top tiers but they aren't that far from high tiers tbh, at least that's how it feels for me

The only outright flawed characters in this game are Zelda, Mewtwo and Samus but even then, Zelda and Mewtwo do get results and it's not impossible to win with them. Hell, even Samus gets results. You can work with anyone and manage to do well with anyone in Smash 4 for as long as your fundamentals are on point. It's just that when it comes to winning, you're better off sticking with the top 10 or hell top 5 is you're really wanting to win. Any character below top 10 is difficult tbh

The balance in Smash 4 is fine. I know I've crapped on Fox and Luigi for being dumb but they have glaring and exploitable weaknesses. Inevitably, there will be those characters that are better than the rest and there are those characters that just suck because... reasons. It's only a matter of how far the gap is and for the most part, it doesn't seem that bad at all in Smash 4

So yeah. This game is pretty balanced if you ask me. Probably the best in the series

Edit:

Also, it helps that everyone kind of feels the same at times. I mean, really

B-air being good 90% of the time
D-throw being a combo throw
B-throw being a kill throw
D-tilt being good
D-air having a lot of landing lag cuz reasons
 
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PUK

PUK

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Sonic Buddha said:
Nah. DDD is decent. Up air kills nicely, his forward tilt is good. Stupidly easy combos. (Down tilt to down tilt, etc. Down trow to Fair. In some cases nair to Up smash) Not to mention whenever a DDD is up a stock, we will try to DDDcide. lol
I think this game is really balenced and each character has a certain way that you have to understand to make use of them. Thats why I think a tier list for this game is going to be difficult.
Click to expand...
No, DDD is trash. He can be good in the right hand, and it's probably because of that that everyone think the game is balanced, but in the right hand any character in the first half of the tier list, with good knowledge of the MU, will destroy him.
Currently most player are not good. There is a lot of spacing mistake, or thing like pure knowledge (look at the M.R against i don't remember who, where ramin keep trying to meteor DDD on the way up), and punish are not optimized (we are not melee, you can't just see where the opponent go and throw a hitbox), people are trying to punish they can't or not trying to punish they can.
 
Shrokatii

Shrokatii

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So I celebrated my birthday yesterday (my actual birthday is on the 18th) and got a Zelda amiibo, so now I have two of them. Just had some friends over and played smash and played some cards. Fun times
 
JigglyZelda003

JigglyZelda003

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top and high tiers are roughly viable against each other but once you drop to mid tier it all just drops down hill very fast with those characters trying to take on the top and high tiers. They may do well against some but not all supposed 15 of them to be able to solo their way to a victory.

personally I feel Rosie is more like a borderline high tier like rollycario. They are good in a specific moment but once its gone they drop down.

also pls ban Freeoshi :secretkpop:
 
Berserker.

Berserker.

:^)
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Messages
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Whenever people want balance, they should think about what true balance is. That being that the whole roster is basically the same character or clone of each other

We don't want that at all. Balance is an impossible concept. The closest we'll get when it comes to "balance" in fighting games is that the gap between characters or tiers (which don't exist atm) aren't that big. There will be those characters that will suck compared to the rest of the cast and sure, it's fixable via patches but inevitably after those patches, there will be a new batch of characters that are worse than the cast. There are those characters that are marginally better than the others and those characters will always exist. Bad characters and good characters will always exist based on how they scale with the roster or cast

It just irks me out to see people wanting balance in the game but no matter how many times a character is buffed or nerfed, there will be a new king or queen of top/bottom tier that will be requested for nerfing or buffing. It's a cycle that not much people understand at all. If you want a good example of a "balanced" fighting game, refer to Persona 4 Arena or Guilty Gear but both games' rosters aren't nearly as big as Smash 4's. You guys have to admit, the staff did a good job in their attempt to balance the roster

And if you guys talk about how mid-tiers and below are not viable/mid-tiers are semi-viable then the rest are unviable, that's the case for every fighting game and those characters will always exist regardless of whatever happens with patches. Can't do anything about that even if you patch the game because after a patch, someone will go down a tier because everyone got better and another will go higher because their bad MU's were nerfed, etc. Really the only thing that needs to be patched or fixed are the OP characters (Sheik) and the screwed up characters (Zelda, M2, and Samus) and maybe some QoL buffs for the mid to bottom tiers but even then there will be those characters that will become marginally better or worse in comparison to the roster. You guys really need to think it through when it comes to asking for balance. Sure some of the dumb exploits should be patched out (ex: Jab lock, Diddy Kong's stupid hoo hah, Sheik's needles) but there will always be that character that will rise to the top and the combos and set-ups that the character is capable of will be nerfed because well... he or she or it's the new best character.

tldr: balancing is difficult business so yeh

Just needed to post this somewhere because I always thought about balance. Then I realize, it's really difficult to balance a 50+ roster. So when it comes to Smash 4's balance, I think we should all be thinking, "It could have been worse" than "the balance isn't that good." Like I said, they did a surprisingly impressive effort and job to balance the roster. I mean, we don't want anything like UMvC3 right? Lol
 
EODM07

EODM07

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Berserker. said:
Just needed to post this somewhere because I always thought about balance. Then I realize, it's really difficult to balance a 50+ roster. So when it comes to Smash 4's balance, I think we should all be thinking, "It could have been worse" than "the balance isn't that good." Like I said, they did a surprisingly impressive effort and job to balance the roster. I mean, we don't want anything like UMvC3 right? Lol
Click to expand...
Don't you mean MvC2 where only six characters were considered viable and the rest were not that good? :secretkpop:

And don't forget Roll Tier too.

Plus, even though UMvC3 is a broken mess that didn't really balance alot of things out. The Top 8 really did shake things up. Since we had Hulk/Haggar/Sentinel win this year's EVO. And before a Wolverine/Haggar/Shuma came third too.
 
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Soul.

Soul.

　
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You know Dedede wouldn't be tr4sh if he was mostly unchanged from Brawl. He has some redeeming qualities, but I don't think that's enough. Only move safe on block is BAir like wtf. That is slow. Dtilt is less laggy than Brawl, cool, unfortunately not safe on shield. Multi hit DAir is gone smh. He's perceived to be a 'polarizing' character in that he wins or loses some MUs. Eh?

Fortunately, I don't think D3 mains care about him being bad. They just love the character lol.

Also people have said this a million times but if a top tier character gets nerfed, another one will come on top, everyone whines, character is nerfed, another one comes on top, and the cycle repeats itself until every character is weak as Samus.

Our community tends to ***** instead of adapting what is on the screen. Find a workaround instead of asking for patches.

inb4 QA is cancer
 
meleebrawler

meleebrawler

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Isn't the thing about UMvC3 that any character can potentially win if the other guy screws up due to near omnipresent touches of death?

You would think the fact that there are no characters harshly invalidated by others in this game would speak to it's balance but whatever.
 
Dee-SmashinBoss

Dee-SmashinBoss

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So basically instead of nerfing top tiers, buff the more situational lower characters?
I think that's fair tbh.
So sad how even some good characters(PAC,Peach,Kirby,Megaman?) Have little representation, giving some people the thought that they are bad characters or are just......well...idk. They just seem to be looked down upon.
 
Berserker.

Berserker.

:^)
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FullMoon said:
All this talk about balance just makes me think of this:


It doesn't apply 100% to Smash but it's a valid view point.
Click to expand...
I actually remember this during some class I attended

Which reminds me, I should sub to this channel
meleebrawler said:
Isn't the thing about UMvC3 that any character can potentially win if the other guy screws up due to near omnipresent touches of death?

You would think the fact that there are no characters harshly invalidated by others in this game would speak to it's balance but whatever.
Click to expand...
Some characters are just plain bad and others are simply overpowered in comparison to the other characters. Doctor Doom, Morrigan, Vergil, Zero, C.Viper were all insane and nuts in UMvC3. Then there are those characters that can't function at all or have serious issues like Phoenix Wright, Hsien Ko, Thor, Tron Bonne, Arthur, She-Hulk, etc. Then again, this may be perfect imbalance but there are a lot of "broken" mechanics in the game. So much to the point where I'm not sure if perfect imbalance is in play with this game

Then again, it's just my opinion. I could be wrong though especially since in the last EVO, the winner of the tournament used Hulk, Haggar and Sentinel (KaneBlueRiver) so yeah
 
FullMoon

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
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Honestly the only character I see being a problem is Sheik just because she's too above the rest.

If you bring her down a bit, then she becomes just another top character among many. Characters that struggled hard with her will be able to compete a little better (they might still lose to her but not as bad) and I think at that point we reach the point of "cyclical unbalance" from the video I linked.
 
erico9001

erico9001

You must find your own path to the future.
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FullMoon said:
All this talk about balance just makes me think of this:


It doesn't apply 100% to Smash but it's a valid view point.
Click to expand...
What, this video, what? He didn't even show that perfect balance is a bad thing, he just showed it's hard to achieve, which we all know already. Counterbalancing is cool, but it is not imbalance. It's rather weighing -5 and 5 together to make 0, than having 2 0's.

We could use more opportunities to counterbalance in Sm4sh. This is why nerfing Sheik is good. Sheik does not have much going against her. A few characters supposedly go even or might have a slight advantage. Because of her power, there is no cycle like what was explained in the video.
 
kenniky

kenniky

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I feel like when people say balanced they mean the gap between top tier and bottom tier isn't as large. Like you look at Melee or Brawl where you have Fox/MK and then Kirby/Ganondorf and it's kind of sad, but this game doesn't have that sort of huge gap.

I think.
 
r_greening1

r_greening1

Hey
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kenniky said:
I feel like when people say balanced they mean the gap between top tier and bottom tier isn't as large. Like you look at Melee or Brawl where you have Fox/MK and then Kirby/Ganondorf and it's kind of sad, but this game doesn't have that sort of huge gap.

I think.
Click to expand...
Ganon is B-tier in Melee btw :^)

He's also #1 in Brawl with items
It's pretty great
 
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JigglyZelda003

JigglyZelda003

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Dee-SmashinBoss said:
So basically instead of nerfing top tiers, buff the more situational lower characters?
I think that's fair tbh.
So sad how even some good characters(PAC,Peach,Kirby,Megaman?) Have little representation, giving some people the thought that they are bad characters or are just......well...idk. They just seem to be looked down upon.
Click to expand...
I wish Peach was good, she is still stuck with sm4sh 1.0 Marth syndrome. She's just getting by because nobody is using peach and learning the matchup.

whoever doesn't feel Mega is at least decent needs to fight one that gives them lemons to make their lemonade stand :secretkpop:
 
ZombieBran

ZombieBran

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Long ago, during the demo days, the even more scrubby than me scrubs at reddit were sure Mega Man was garb and Link was the best demo character. They might hold that conviction to this day.
 
ZombieBran

ZombieBran

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ooP
I think I got the "Is Samus the worst character?" thread closed.
(the answer to the title is 'yes')
 
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PUK

PUK

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EODM07

EODM07

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Just got back from my meal out. Was very nice, and I'll try and have some cake tonight as well.

Doubt I'll be able to eat it all though, I feel rather full. :V
 
Koiba

Koiba

코이바 ❤
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Happy b-day @EODM07~ :happysheep:

:disco::4palutena:x:4lucina: :disco:~
:love:

:disco: :4darkpit::disco::4jigglypuff::disco::4sheik::disco::4pit::disco::4myfriends::disco:
:rolleyes:
 
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