Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Rickster]

That hair flip animation is still so disgusting to me......


Eww



Also, Zelda is dressed so strangely. She has this really low cut tank top like dress and then big goofy shoulder pads that must barely be hanging onto the thin straps around her shoulders. Then she has the long elegant gloves that go past her elbow. Then the Hylian symbol thing that is probably stitched into her skin.


But really how does she fight with earrings?

Speaking of her earrings, her ears aren't even pierced. I was looking at the concept art for TP Zelda and there's a note explaining how the earring just "clasps the earlobe".

No wonder she looks so annoyed in Smash. That doesn't sound very comfortable lol.

 

[r_greening1]

@ ぱみゅ I think you'll find this very interesting. I came across this months ago when I first joined the site.

Spoiler: Lots of text

Fairness, neutrality, and polarization
As easy it is to recognize fairness, there's an insidious trap that scrubs will lay. This is an attack on the principle of fairness when they say "that's not fair!", "that's cheap!", "that's over-powered"/"That's OP", "That's too good", or "That's broken!"/"busted!".
But, philosophically speaking, where does the boundaries really lie when something is broken enough to warrant an action to be taken?

Once again, referring to Sirlin's "Playing to Win", the criteria to a ban is three fold:
A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted.
Click to expand...
(8)

As much as I agree with the content of the writing I believe the labels (not the content) could be better worded:

"A ban must be warranted, discernible, and enforceable."

The reason I changed "discrete" to "discernible" is because it flows better and seems to be more readily understood to the general audience - the context says it must be "well defined" which is to say it must be able to be identified.

The reason I changed the order fore this guide is due to a system of hierarchy: If a claim to ban is not warranted first and foremost than there is no reason to continue with analysis because there would be no warranted reason to do so. Sirlin says this himself: "If it isn’t warranted to ban something, we don’t need to even consider whether it’s enforceable or discrete." (8)

Anyone making claim that something must be banned, limited, changed, or "fixed" has the burden of proof on them/their claim. There is no reason why anyone needs to defend why something should not be banned. Keep that in mind.

Likewise, any additional rulings that change tournament results regardless of in-game results must have proof as well (ledge grab limits, suicide, ties/stalemates/time-outs, etc.). If there is no reasonable proof for these imposed rules then violation of competitive principles are suspect.
Speaking of in-game rules...

Unfortunately for customs (as of right now), they fit the criteria for a ban.
1). Warranted?
Can be argued on the grounds that not every player has access to all customs, thus creating an uneven playing field
2). Discernible?
Can be defined to only customs
3). Enforceable?
Yes, because they aren't all unlocked from the beginning

What also scares me is that those same arguements an be used against DLC characters
Link to the guide:http://smashboards.com/guides/competitive-philosophy-for-super-smash-bros.91/

 

[Antonykun]

私はあなたの冗談を理解していません。

あなたは、私が東アジアの御井ファイター剣術に出席最高とだけトーナメントだ知っている必要があります。

the joke was that i was making a follow up of me saying that i'm one of the best mii swordfighter players by default and if you are not around i am indisputably the best swordfighter player here so when you showed up i was like "dang" and posted an image

just you wait one of these days i will get on stream with my swordfighter

 

[LonkQ]

I'm mixed on Customs. Close Combat is beautiful. Palutena also has that nice Super Speed and Lightweight combo. On the other hand, it doesn't help Roy at all. I'm looking only at the potential benefits for the characters I play, everyone else be damned.

 

[Soul.]

Samus is bad in every game but Melee smh.
If I remember correctly, top players on Twitter said **** customs but they use them to #Play2Win. Then Shofu with the hate, lol. What ever happened to his "Custom Moves Are The Future" video?

 

[Antonykun]

@ ぱみゅ I think you'll find this very interesting. I came across this months ago when I first joined the site.

Spoiler: Lots of text

Fairness, neutrality, and polarization
As easy it is to recognize fairness, there's an insidious trap that scrubs will lay. This is an attack on the principle of fairness when they say "that's not fair!", "that's cheap!", "that's over-powered"/"That's OP", "That's too good", or "That's broken!"/"busted!".
But, philosophically speaking, where does the boundaries really lie when something is broken enough to warrant an action to be taken?

Once again, referring to Sirlin's "Playing to Win", the criteria to a ban is three fold:
A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted.
Click to expand...
(8)

As much as I agree with the content of the writing I believe the labels (not the content) could be better worded:

"A ban must be warranted, discernible, and enforceable."

The reason I changed "discrete" to "discernible" is because it flows better and seems to be more readily understood to the general audience - the context says it must be "well defined" which is to say it must be able to be identified.

The reason I changed the order fore this guide is due to a system of hierarchy: If a claim to ban is not warranted first and foremost than there is no reason to continue with analysis because there would be no warranted reason to do so. Sirlin says this himself: "If it isn’t warranted to ban something, we don’t need to even consider whether it’s enforceable or discrete." (8)

Anyone making claim that something must be banned, limited, changed, or "fixed" has the burden of proof on them/their claim. There is no reason why anyone needs to defend why something should not be banned. Keep that in mind.

Likewise, any additional rulings that change tournament results regardless of in-game results must have proof as well (ledge grab limits, suicide, ties/stalemates/time-outs, etc.). If there is no reasonable proof for these imposed rules then violation of competitive principles are suspect.
Speaking of in-game rules...

Unfortunately for customs (as of right now), they fit the criteria for a ban.
1). Warranted?
Can be argued on the grounds that not every player has access to all customs, thus creating an uneven playing field
2). Discernible?
Can be defined to only customs
3). Enforceable?
Yes, because they aren't all unlocked from the beginning

What also scares me is that those same arguements an be used against DLC characters
Link to the guide:http://smashboards.com/guides/competitive-philosophy-for-super-smash-bros.91/

here's actual page where this is from
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

 

[r_greening1]

I'm p sure I'm a Zelda main at this point. Once I heard that I'm going to a tournament, I've changed to Zelda right away. I'm a Zelda main that refuses to be one lol.

View attachment 62807
Ehh.... hour, schmour. You'll be back, you always come back.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Rizen, gurl, is not liek I avoided to address your post, but there are many fundamentally wrong things with your post that there is not much I can say against it.

For starters, you say "camping" is different from "good fundamental play", which is wrong. To be able to camp you need to understand and effectively limit your opponents' options. Camping is a legit strategy because it wins, like it or not.
As much as they were powerful exploits, no custom won the event, and there were actually few custom moves at the Top 8, the only significant one was HSB which ESAM fished for so badly he made the rest of his game lousy and still won. Was his victory because of HSB? Hardly.

And the rest of the post becomes a mess between calling customs "jank" and calling Brawl bad. None of them being clearly defined.


And ICs were powerful because MK was there, and as such, stages were limited. If the game had more varied stagelist and IC would've been severely nerfed.[/u]

 

[FullMoon]

I don't know how I'm doing it but somehow I'm getting a lot of gimps on Captain Falcon because when I go for the stage spike only the first hit of B-Air connects and that leaves the Cap in hitstun for long enough that his Up-B won't reach the ledge anymore lol

Just clutched a victory against one with it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Meanwhile, Lucina, the inferior Marth. Meanwhile, worse than a Melee clone, Dark Pit. Meanwhile, Zelda and Samus. Would you rather just be a custom move or horribly designed characters who stain their franchise's name?

The irony being that at least Dark Pit isn't absolute trash compared to his original. Dark Pit legitimately has a bunch of matchups where he's superior, unlike those "superior" clones like Falco and Lucas.

 

[Trieste SP]

the joke was that i was making a follow up of me saying that i'm one of the best mii swordfighter players by default and if you are not around i am indisputably the best swordfighter player here so when you showed up i was like "dang" and posted an image

just you wait one of these days i will get on stream with my swordfighter

Oh cool, thanks for clarifying.

And to you too. I'll record my Swordfighter someday as well.

Spoiler

場合にのみ、私はオンライン対戦の一部を保存し、記録装置を持っていました。

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I don't know how I'm doing it but somehow I'm getting a lot of gimps on Captain Falcon because when I go for the stage spike only the first hit of B-Air connects and that leaves the Cap in hitstun for long enough that his Up-B won't reach the ledge anymore lol

Just clutched a victory against one with it.

bair's hitboxes are weiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiird.

The irony being that at least Dark Pit isn't absolute trash compared to his original. Dark Pit legitimately has a bunch of matchups where he's superior, unlike those "superior" clones like Falco and Lucas.

What. Falco and Lucas aren't clones at all. Unless the emote is supposed to be denoting sarcasm? I honestly cannot tell.

 

[KenMeister]

All these people whining about banning things. lol

Learn 2 adapt.

 

[Ffamran]

Y'know, if Shulk's frame data was that bad, Ike should be bottom too, but this dude never mentions him... Or Marth and Lucina who I think have similar frame data as Robin's or Robin's just slightly slower while moving much, much slower. Meanwhile, easily gimped Dr. Mario whose recovery barely is better than Little Mac shouldn't be low tier. Why is this dude so obsessed with frame data? Different game, but Vergil's fastest attack was like frame 5 in UMvC3 while everything else was frame 10 and above and he's regarded as one of the best characters for many reasons including frame data. Bad frame data does not automatically mean a character is bottom. If it did, then Captain Falcon despite his awesome speed would be mid tier at best.

Falco top 20? We playin' Brawl here or Smash 4? Falco at best would be ranked in the 35-55 region. Those buffs were helpful. Keyword: helpful. They were not game changing. Game changing would have to be something like Falco had a frame 1 Side Smash. That would broken as **** and game changing in the worst way possible.

Seems alright but I can't really agree with dr. Mario wft and Jigglypuff being that low. I also don't see how shulk and Robin aren't in the bottom of the cast.

Also I really really think highly of Falco right now and I think he can be considered a threat. I'd put him in the top 20 before dark pit. I think Falco is on the come up. His mobility on the ground leaves a lot to be desired but he has some really good things going for his.

 

[NekoJubei]

People want customs banned becuz they lazy af and don't want to work hard

 

[Antonykun]

All these people whining about banning things. lol

Learn 2 adapt.

are we still debating over customs

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

amazing.

 

[r_greening1]

Y'know, if Shulk's frame data was that bad, Ike should be bottom too,

 

[Ffamran]

View attachment 62934

Ike is one letter different than "uke", so he's definitely a bottom.

 

[Trieste SP]

Falco top 20? We playin' Brawl here or Smash 4? Falco at best would be ranked in the 35-55 region. Those buffs were helpful. Keyword: helpful. They were not game changing. Game changing would have to be something like Falco had a frame 1 Side Smash. That would broken as **** and game changing in the worst way possible.

Definitely, Falco just have too little going for him to be place anywhere near top 20. Although, I really wouldn't mind him to continue getting buffs in the future patches. I hope they decrease the endlag for some of his moves.

 

[Antonykun]

Y'know, if Shulk's frame data was that bad, Ike should be bottom too, but this dude never mentions him... Or Marth and Lucina who I think have similar frame data as Robin's or Robin's just slightly slower while moving much, much slower. Meanwhile, easily gimped Dr. Mario whose recovery barely is better than Little Mac shouldn't be low tier. Why is this dude so obsessed with frame data? Different game, but Vergil's fastest attack was like frame 5 in UMvC3 while everything else was frame 10 and above and he's regarded as one of the best characters for many reasons including frame data. Bad frame data does not automatically mean a character is bottom. If it did, then Captain Falcon despite his awesome speed would be mid tier at best.

Falco top 20? We playin' Brawl here or Smash 4? Falco at best would be ranked in the 35-55 region. Those buffs were helpful. Keyword: helpful. They were not game changing. Game changing would have to be something like Falco had a frame 1 Side Smash. That would broken as **** and game changing in the worst way possible.

*checks out ikes frame data*
holly schist @ McKnightlíght was not kidding when he said Swordfighter is faster

 

[BJN39]

Ike is one letter different than "uke", so he's definitely a bottom.

 

[smokebomb12]

I like customs.

 

[FullMoon]

bair's hitboxes are weiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiird.

This whole character is weird

Why the hell does he have different frame data for his rolls

 

[Antonykun]

Definitely, Falco just have too little going for him to be place anywhere near top 20. Although, I really wouldn't mind him to continue getting buffs in the future patches. I hope they decrease the endlag for some of his moves.

maybe Falco should not get buffs so my friend @ArhyLis doesn't traumatize me with Falco

 

[McKnightlíght]

My goodness gorls, I wasn't gone for that long and you guys are all like

CUSTOMS ARE GOOD

Spoiler

CUSTOMS ARE BAD

Spoiler

And at first I was like

Spoiler

But some people may actually be legitimately mad and I don't want this family torn apart

Spoiler

 

[Soul.]

Banning moves is dumb.
Customs are good though I'll give you that. Logistics is a sad word.

 

[r_greening1]

Ike is one letter different than "uke", so he's definitely a bottom.

Low is one letter from "slow" and I gotta go fast

Spoiler

 

[Rizen]

Rizen, gurl, is not liek I avoided to address your post, but there are many fundamentally wrong things with your post that there is not much I can say against it.

For starters, you say "camping" is different from "good fundamental play", which is wrong. To be able to camp you need to understand and effectively limit your opponents' options. Camping is a legit strategy because it wins[/s], like it or not.
As much as they were powerful exploits, no custom won the event, and there were actually few custom moves at the Top 8, the only significant one was HSB which ESAM fished for so badly he made the rest of his game lousy and still won. Was his victory because of HSB? Hardly.

And the rest of the post becomes a mess between calling customs "jank" and calling Brawl bad. None of them being clearly defined.

And ICs were powerful because MK was there, and as such, stages were limited. If the game had more varied stagelist and IC would've been severely nerfed.

I never said camping isn't fundamental play, you made that up. I main Link; I know camping. What I said was the game becomes more campy and that makes it less enjoyable to watch. By campy as opposed to fundamentals I mean that customs make SSB4 much more about avoiding the opponent and relying exploits or jank. When villager planks he puts the opponent in a bad position to approach then he can repeat the same actions until he's compromised. Then go to another ledge after a few attacks, rinse and repeat. This kind of play hurt Brawl at high levels in terms of popularity, sponsorship and representation.

Yes, they were defined. I have good points that you have no answer to. Really you haven't addressed any key points about balance. The closest thing you've said to support customs is they make WFT and Palutena viable but that's easily defeated by all the worse MUs and characters customs create. You're just finding elaborate ways to ignore that fact that customs make SSB4 less balanced, more reliant on abusing exploits or avoiding them, create more polarized MUs, and make matches take longer to setup.

 

[Trieste SP]

maybe Falco should not get buffs so my friend @ArhyLis doesn't traumatize me with Falco

You're having trouble with Falco?

 

[Antonykun]

You're having trouble with Falco?

not really its just when he is in advantage i just ask myself
"why is this bird allowed to do these things?"
and @ArhyLis laughs at my misery

 

[LancerStaff]

bair's hitboxes are weiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiird.

What. Falco and Lucas aren't clones at all. Unless the emote is supposed to be denoting sarcasm? I honestly cannot tell.

They're clones. Are you seriously arguing this?

Clone: Similar in style, flavor, or appearance. In video games, it refers to characters made with another as a base and still have large similarities.

All these people whining about banning things. lol

Learn 2 adapt.

I have. Rather have the balance.

 

[smokebomb12]

Who the hell said Shulk and Ike suck?

 

[FullMoon]

I was looking at Smash wiki about Greninja's pros and cons and...

All Smash Attacks have a sweetspot at the edge of Greninja's Water Swords. This is mostly noticeable in his Up Smash, which deals negligible knockback if it doesn't sweetspot.

Lack of range in many moves.

Weak grabs that cannot KO even at higher percentages.

The Substitute doll/wooden block is created after the counter triggers can be attacked by opponents and hit Greninja.

Limited options for KO, specially in the air

I can't even

Water Shuriken cannot be stored like other chargeable projectiles. It also has considerable startup lag. The projectile is also not so fast compared to other charging projectiles.

Water Shuriken is a slow projectile

 

[Antonykun]

I was looking at Smash wiki about Greninja's pros and cons and...







I can't even



Water Shuriken is a slow projectile

i'm afraid of the swordfighter page @ Trieste SP do my bidding and scout the area for me while i go to bed
nvm its actually pretty good

 

[McKnightlíght]

*checks out ikes frame data*
holly schist @ McKnightlíght was not kidding when he said Swordfighter is faster

Dude, Ike is a brick cannon. It's like a glass cannon but instead of shattering it just take 45,000 frames for Fsmash to come out and he's punishable like a brick wall for 20 days and 18 hours.


I'll admit that analogy got away from me a little bit.

 

[Trieste SP]

not really its just when he is in advantage i just ask myself
"why is this bird allowed to do these things?"
and @ArhyLis laughs at my misery

Oh, I know what you mean.

 

[Soul.]

lol smashwiki

 

[FullMoon]

i'm afraid of the swordfighter page @ Trieste SP do my bidding and scout the area for me while i go to bed

They actually didn't even bother.

It just shows how much people care about this character lol.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

This whole character is weird

Why the hell does he have different frame data for his rolls

I have no idea. Ask Sakurai. x_x

They're clones. Are you seriously arguing this?

Clone: Similar in style, flavor, or appearance. In video games, it refers to characters made with another as a base and still have large similarities.

T'was confused about the emote to see if you were serious or not.

I can rattle off a long list of things in disagreement. I, personally, would call them semi-clones, whilst characters like Dark Pit and Lucina would be clones. It all comes down to a matter of semantics and personal opinion.

I can't even

GG, smash wiki.