Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Macchiato]

Have you ever heard of quality over quantity? Sure, Smash 4 has a lot of characters and the game is accessible for everyone, but when every character feels the same or very similar, you've got a problem.

Characters that were unique in Brawl:


Characters that are unique in Smash 4:

I'd say that are pretty unique

 

[Lorde]

I'd say that are pretty unique

Forgot about . I'll edit him in.

As for , she's gotten dumbed down a lot and lost a lot of what made her special imo. She's not like everyone else, but she's not unlike everyone else, if you know what I mean.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ S.F.L.R_9 you've played all my characters. Rank these characters from best to worst.

(did you forget her?)

 

[Ffamran]

Spoiler: Would you like a rant?

It's not even a matter of characters being bad. What you're talking about is bad execution. I'm talking about bad design. Bad moveset concepts. Not only did Sm4sh got execution wrong, it also completely butchered every character's concept design by making everyone do exactly the same things. We have a roster of 51 characters that are all basically the same.

In Sm4sh there's two types of characters. Those who grab you and then chain the same aerial attack 3 times, or those who have ONE special move that basically centralizes their whole moveset around it, with no unique or interesting individual qualities to them.

Zelda is the symbol of bad moveset concept. Her design is to be this really precise character that is extremely volatile when things are messed with like increased landing lag on really precise Fair and Bair which renders her without a way to approach in the air or do much in the air other than try to catch someone with Nayru's Love. Staying true to the series? Give me a freaking break. Nothing Zelda does actually stays freaking true to the series in Smash with Farore's Wind being close. Staying true to the series actually hurts her more than it helps since it makes her so limited, but then you look at characters like Wolf and even Pit.

Sakurai's faith in old fans or catering to old fans already killed several characters: Falco, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus, Mewtwo, Zelda, and I would even argue Pit and Palutena not to mention Dark Pit and Lucina are screwed over because of this stupid need to stay true to their "original" designs. There is nothing that suggests Falco jumps high since birds can't really jump high. The fact he was a clone in Melee killed everything about him. Oh, but he's a semi-clone. Yes, a semi-clone of a character whose design was to be a rushdown character. Tweaks aren't going to fix Falco when stuff like **** air speed is set in stone. Ganondorf? Rumors of him using a sword in Melee, but they ran out of time? That's poor management and poor ethics. Look, I love games, but the gaming industry is a freaking sweatshop and it's not surprising that more and more games are getting glitchier, getting more DLC, and getting more stuff cut. Ganondorf can work as a slow and mighty warrior, but he does not have to be a semi-clone of Captain Falcon, tweaked a bit, to actually be that. Ganondorf's main issues right now are that without a safe way to deal with stuff at a range even with his massive natural range, he's screwed. He has to get in to do stuff or make people get into his zone to do stuff. If he had a sword like Ragnell, he wouldn't have to do that and could space well. Even if his projectile was slow as sin, he could at least have something to zone a bit like Falco, but have durability to back that up. Speaking of which, what the hell is Falco even supposed to be? It seems like he's a zoner in Melee and his gear made it look like he was an anti-zoner in Brawl and SSB4, but we all know what he was in Melee, Brawl, and SSB4. He played games his designs don't suggest.

Toon Link should have represented the other iconic Zelda gear regardless if they're from Wind Waker, A Link to the Past, or Oracle of Seasons; he could have been the Link who represented the 2D games while Link represented the 3D games. I mean, has anyone ever seen 2D Link use a Jump Attack? He had the stall and drop Down Thrust with the Roc's Cape, but never did a Jump Attack. Samus's at least has moves that are true to her series and works as intended, but there are some things that are just weird like Dtilt, Side Smash, Up Smash, Fair, and her rolls. Dear lord, her rolls are messed up. They're slow as sin and she can't even "crawl" which would her crouch way more useful. Maybe a dash like in Prime or Other M for dodging, replace Dtilt with Bombs, have Bombs be Super Bombs, y'know, a timed explosive that would be wicked even if they're not that practical. Oh, and speaking of practical, let's give a tall character an Up Smash that practically ignores everyone who's shorter than her which is like 60% of the cast. Should I go on?

It's bad everything. From giving characters the ability to stun and spam lasers, to an incredibly fast spike, really fast and powerful aerials, little to no end lag, useless moves like what the hell is Captain Falcon's Ftilt even there for when you have the godplayer jab? There's a way to make a game appeal to both casuals and able to be competitive and from what people have said about recent "fighters" like Smash 4 and Mortal Kombat X, they've failed horribly since they're spammy and certain characters just overpower everything. Superman in Injustice, anyone? I get it, Superman's all powerful, but in a fighting game, he doesn't need to be all powerful like that. There's a reason why Algol was banned in Soul Calibur IV and was nerfed to be a reasonable fighter in Soul Calibur V.

Oh, and there's a third type of character: characters that don't work. They're the characters so overshadowed that they could be removed right now and people would only complain about their removal with no legit argument for why they should be in the game. "Oh, Falco can edgeguard with Fair." Y'know who else can? EVERYONE. "But Marth has tippers!" SO DOES LINK AND PIT! EVEN SHEIK HAS SPACED HITS THAT ARE MORE POWERFUL!

Tbh the only characters I find to be interesting by design are Rosalina, Pac-Man, Shulk, Villager and Bowser. The rest are just carbon copies with different colors and different visuals. The only thing that differentiates characters is whether they're strong due to execution and frame data or not, and by now I've grown bored of this.

Add in Ganondorf, Mega Man, and Duck Hunt. Ganondorf literally plays the counter game that ironically, characters with counter don't. Little Mac is somewhat interesting, but when the game doesn't factor in input lag, he's really annoying. Mega Man being based on his own series which explains all the projectiles already sets him apart from everyone else and even if he's a ***** to fight, he's at least someone who doesn't bum rush you like Fox, Captain Falcon, Diddy, Meta Knight, Palutena, Sheik, and more. Duck Hunt and Pac-Man are the closest things we have to Snake who could lay traps, play incredible mindgames, and control the stage so interestingly. Oh, and there's Jigglypuff if you like dealing with a cloud that hovers and wants to murder you.

By design, at least Link, Toon Link, and Samus have their own, wall out game play, but it's at a point where it's annoying, so I don't give a damn.

Brawl was a terrible game due to its crappy mechanics, slow engine and a bunch of other problems, but at least the character design was great. Peach was unique, the ICs were unique, Zelda was unique, Ness was unique, Snake was SUPER unique, Olimar was unique, DDD was unique, Link was unique, even the three furries were unique when grouped together and in comparison to the rest of the cast. Characters actually felt different from each other, and you had to give some time to every character in order to find the potential of all of their tools.

In Sm4sh everyone does the same thing. Grab, d-throw, fair/nair/uair... and that's it. Sure, there are other moves and whatnot, but in general everyone is basically just the same thing.

That's why Sm4sh's design is bad, not because characters have dumb frame data or reach. It's because barely any character in this game has individuality.

Peach at least had a mechanic that set her apart from everyone else and even then, it doesn't take that to make a character unique. I mean, look at Little Mac and his mechanic which does nothing, but irritate people. The Ice Climbers are cool in concept, but the fact that nobody addressed their grab shenanigans is one thing that makes me hate them. I'm sure SSB4 would have, but we'll never know because the New 3DS wasn't released and adopted by everyone at the time and it still isn't adopted by everyone.

Tripping alone was stupid. Smash 4 is basically Brawl without tripping, edgehogging, chaingrabbing, and other dumb stuff like Falco's dumb*** lasers or Meta Knight being a poorly executed character. That alone makes Smash 4 better in a sense there's no dumb RNG unless you're playing Mr. Game & Watch and sort of Peach and Villager, but at least those weren't a universal and persistent problem because they were designs intended to make the characters unique in some way and not **** up everything.

If I had it my way, I would thoroughly go through every character and if that means the roster gets reduced to 25 characters because that meant too much time to work with everyone, then so be it. 50+ characters is a lot for game and for a fighting game, it's massive. It's no surprise that a lot of the characters do the same thing or similar things, but when it borderlines that it's character design like Fox and Falco, Link and Toon Link, Pit and Dark Pit, Marth and Lucina, and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, it's at that point of why even bother adding so many characters if that means so much is diluted? This isn't Mario Kart where characters are just visual and audio representations and separated in weight classes or a freaking first-person shooter where appearances don't really matter except for camouflage which the game sometimes handles on it own.

If I could, I would make this game more like King of Fighters XIII which was balanced since you could use anyone, characters each had their own niche and there are about 30? characters, but I would have to make it easy to get into since KoF isn't exactly a pick up and play game. At the same time, I don't want Smash to become like Marvel vs. Capcom which with 3, is basically Melee or Brawl where there are select characters way too damned good.

Funny, I was thinking of doing an animation project by redrawing and redoing some of Falco's moveset just to test out gif making and stuff, but now that I look at it, I might destroy Falco's "beloved" moveset and make it actually different.

Also, screw Ike's Specials frame data. Everything is so messed up!

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

why is this game so ridiculous and janky

 

[SBphiloz4]

im the best brawl player in the world tbh i bet i can beat all of u stupid scrubs fite me on brawl online

but if it lags im blaming u and if i lose because lag i won't count it as a loss because i have perfect record

fite me now FC: URASCRUB101

imma wreck u all wiff zelda on luiuuiugis' mansion thx to my smash ballz

 

[Soul.]

Have you ever heard of quality over quantity? Sure, Smash 4 has a lot of characters and the game is accessible for everyone, but when every character feels the same or very similar, you've got a problem.

Characters that were unique in Brawl:


Characters that are unique in Smash 4:

I'd like to know which characters feel the same. Is it because everyone combos off down throw? I get that almost everyone is unique in Brawl; I miss the feel of some characters in the game, but... I don't know, maybe, maybe IF Brawl still had Wi-Fi everyone who doesn't like Smash 4 would be playing it.

Wiimmfi sucks but it's the closest thing people will get to a functional online server in which people can play Wii and DS games online.

 

[Macchiato]

Forgot about . I'll edit him in.

As for , she's gotten dumbed down a lot and lost a lot of what made her special imo. She's not like everyone else, but she's not unlike everyone else, if you know what I mean.

yeah, but I'd still say shes unique due to her float ability.

I think I'm about to quit playing online because lag is really getting on my nerves now.

we all have those days.

The only things I miss from Brawl are Pika CGs, NAir doing 12% instead of 8%, and uhm, yeah. I didn't mention QAC because it's still in Smash 4, and I'd rather have Smash 4 QA.
Smash 4 makes everything simplified; I honestly don't think this is a bad thing. Yeah, Brawl characters were unique... so?

I miss peach's float cancel, turnip ledge cancel, glide tossing, peach bomber ledge cancel, slingshot bomber, smash bomber. those made peach so unique

 

[Burgundy]

is super unique because of Monado Art fun times

 

[Macchiato]

(did you forget her?)

No, I gave up on WiiFit. REALLY? ROBIN? I didn't think that mine was that good. also this is customs off right? im p sure without customs my lucina goes down pretty far.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Everyone in Brawl was so unique. That's what I loved about it. Every character had a different playstyle and gameplan. Almost everyone in Smash 4 feels the same, Zelda doesn't feel right, and she somehow was made worse...honestly the only reason I'm still playing is because it's the current game. I wish Brawl still had wifi.

RIP 2008-2013

No, I gave up on WiiFit. REALLY? ROBIN? I didn't think that mine was that good. also this is customs off right? im p sure without customs my lucina goes down pretty far.

Yeah customs off. Your Robin is amazing and easily the best I've ever played. No, your Lucina is very good and you play her with a ton of precision

 

[Furret]

Have you ever heard of quality over quantity? Sure, Smash 4 has a lot of characters and the game is accessible for everyone, but when every character feels the same or very similar, you've got a problem.

Characters that were unique in Brawl:


Characters that are unique in Smash 4:

is unique in that he is good

 

[Spirst]

Indeed, is unique in being the most irritating character in any Smash game.

 

[Lavani]

why is this game so ridiculous and janky

lol, charging a smash against a max rage 120w autolink hitbox as the second lightest character in the game

 

[Kofu]

why is this game so ridiculous and janky

Loling

Looks like a combination of rage, high baseknock back on a move meant to hit more after that, and the smash charge vulnerability DANG IT LAVANI

Curious who the Game & Watch was though.

 

[Macchiato]

Everyone in Brawl was so unique. That's what I loved about it. Every character had a different playstyle and gameplan. Almost everyone in Smash 4 feels the same, Zelda doesn't feel right, and she somehow was made worse...honestly the only reason I'm still playing is because it's the current game. I wish Brawl still had wifi.

RIP 2008-2013

Yeah customs off. Your Robin is amazing and easily the best I've ever played. No, your Lucina is very good and you play her with a ton of precision

Yeah now everyones either rushdown, defensive, or campy. Nothing else really.

hmmmmM Thats interesting. I've been waiting for Roy but in theory. Lucina sounds better than Roy.

 

[Lorde]

I'd like to know which characters feel the same. Is it because everyone combos off down throw? I get that almost everyone is unique in Brawl; I miss the feel of some characters in the game, but... I don't know, maybe, maybe IF Brawl still had Wi-Fi everyone who doesn't like Smash 4 would be playing it.

Wiimmfi sucks but it's the closest thing people will get to a functional online server in which people can play Wii and DS games online.

Imo, it's more separated into archetypes in which everyone is pretty similar. Something like this:

Fast characters:


Fat:


Swords/Spacing:


Defensive/Patient:


Spam:


"All-Around":

There are more categories but I don't really feel like doing them all rn. Also these are my opinions so I don't need 97786446 people quoting me, saying which character belongs in which category tysm.

 

[Furret]

Indeed, is unique in being the most irritating character in any Smash game.

someone hasn't played against melee puff then

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'm playing All star to get Ike's customs and I just witnessed a CPU perfect pivot. wtf

 

[2004Zilla]

I am now fully convinced that a Mortal Kombat-style Smash game, complete with Mortal Kombat-esque fatalities, would be the ****.

 

[evmaxy54]

Hi

 

[Fernosaur]

The thing is that those archetypes @ Lorde listed aren't even something that truly separates the characters. 80% of the cast has the same d-throw combo which is lame as ****. 80% of the cast relies heavily on grabs for damage racking, and the characters that don't isn't because they have interesting grab options, it's because their grabs flat out suck and provide nothing noteworthy or interesting.

Literally those archetypes are just "fast" and "heavy" and "defensive." But that's NOT enough to define a character. That's super simplistic and basic.

I also don't think falls into the "unique" category because even though the shot-can gimmick gives him stage control, blah blah, it's still a single special gimmick on which he relies WAY too much. It's not like Pac-Man, who has a million different tools to do a million different things and pull off a million different set ups. Duck Hunt just camps with the same thing and attempts to hit with his ****ty normals. Not even Peach feels unique because even though she can float, she only does it to do the same aerial over and over.

Also, lol, every Up-B in the game is a finisher.

 

[FullMoon]

Uuugh I'm feeling really frustrated right now, I need to do something else to relax.

 

[kenniky]

lol, charging a smash against a max rage 120w autolink hitbox as the second lightest character in the game

*third lightest

 

[Spirst]

Hi

 

[Lavani]

*third lightest

*second lightest against vertical KOs

 

[r_greening1]

@ Ffamran I'm not sure I can agree with you when there are some discrepencies. "characters each had their own niche" "Ganondorf's main issues right now are that without a safe way to deal with stuff at a range even with his massive natural range, he's screwed." IMO Ganon's niche is a walking death machine that hands out damage. How balanced would the game be if "If he had a sword like Ragnell, and could space well" ? You even said for example, "Superman in Injustice, anyone? I get it, Superman's all powerful, but in a fighting game, he doesn't need to be all-powerful like that." Ganon is a an absolute powerhouse, but he doesn't need to dominate the entire cast because "he doesn't need to be all-powerful like that" Why? Well, "There's a reason why Algol was banned in Soul Calibur IV and was nerfed to be a reasonable fighter in Soul Calibur V." What I'm trying to say is that you're being way too critical of something you can't change. Yeah, some changes weren't needed or wanted, but at the end of the day that's what we're left with. You say that Sakurai shouldn't stay true to the series, but look at us for example. Earlier, we were saying that he shouldn't have changed some of Zoroldo's moves and that it doesn't make sense, so imagine if he changed the entire moveset? He changed Down-B, most players just forgot it even existed.

 

[kenniky]

Also, lol, every Up-B in the game is a finisher.

????

(I have killed someone with 's up-B before though)

 

[Macchiato]

The thing is that those archetypes @ Lorde listed aren't even something that truly separates the characters. 80% of the cast has the same d-throw combo which is lame as ****. 80% of the cast relies heavily on grabs for damage racking, and the characters that don't isn't because they have interesting grab options, it's because their grabs flat out suck and provide nothing noteworthy or interesting.

Literally those archetypes are just "fast" and "heavy" and "defensive." But that's NOT enough to define a character. That's super simplistic and basic.

I also don't think falls into the "unique" category because even though the shot-can gimmick gives him stage control, blah blah, it's still a single special gimmick on which he relies WAY too much. It's not like Pac-Man, who has a million different tools to do a million different things and pull off a million different set ups. Duck Hunt just camps with the same thing and attempts to hit with his ****ty normals. Not even Peach feels unique because even though she can float, she only does it to do the same aerial over and over.

Also, lol, every Up-B in the game is a finisher.

let me see what character has a dthrow combo

wow 14/52

 

[r_greening1]

????

(I have killed someone with 's up-B before though)

Tell me more

 

[kenniky]

let me see what character has a dthrow combo

wow 13/52

uhhh

whaaaat

did you forget a word

such as "not"

Tell me more

I flew at them, they jumped backward

off the stage

they were DK so they died

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Peach is still unique even without all her brawl techs. her unorthodox moveset plus float will forever set her apart as one of the most unique of the cast because no one feels quite like her even in her simplified state of Sm4sh.

Rosalinda is Zelda+assist trophy

@ Ffamran I'm not sure I can agree with you when there are some discrepencies. "characters each had their own niche" "Ganondorf's main issues right now are that without a safe way to deal with stuff at a range even with his massive natural range, he's screwed." IMO Ganon's niche is a walking death machine that hands out damage. How balanced would the game be if "If he had a sword like Ragnell, and could space well"

Ganon kills in 5 hits and moves pretty well, swords would have made people made because Ganon would have lost power because of it lol

Well, "There's a reason why Algol was banned in Soul Calibur IV and was nerfed to be a reasonable fighter in Soul Calibur V."

OMG SCV the death of SC. I think this goes to show that dumbing down a series to make it more ACCESSIBLE only kills the series. Algol was still dumb in SCV just everyone else was dumb down and dumb so he wasn't the only dumb. and only like 2 characters actually took any skill to use for that game. /ihatebamco

 

[Rizen]

Lol it took me way too long to figure out what (or rather who) stood for.

Edit has no Dthrow combo it's based on reads.

 

[Soul.]

Yeah um. Played Brawl again just to try things out.
Pika is still the GOAT. Brawl Tink is love, and um. **** ICs.

 

[Spirst]

=

 

[Macchiato]

Peach is still unique even without all her brawl techs. her unorthodox moveset plus float will forever set her apart as one of the most unique of the cast because no one feels quite like her even in her simplified state of Sm4sh.

Rosalinda is Zelda+assist trophy


Ganon kills in 5 hits and moves pretty well, swords would have made people made because Ganon would have lost power because of it lol


OMG SCV the death of SC. I think this goes to show that dumbing down a series to make it more ACCESSIBLE only kills the series. Algol was still dumb in SCV just everyone else was dumb down and dumb so he wasn't the only dumb. and only like 2 characters actually took any skill to use for that game. /ihatebamco

SCV litarally felt like a street fighter with better graphics. They took out Fan Favorites too with no good reason. Seung Mi Na, Talim, Taki, Cassandra, Dhaslamel. Viola is like the only hard chatacter to learn, yet shes incredibly broken.

 

[r_greening1]

Ganon kills in 5 hits and moves pretty well, swords would have made people mad because Ganon would have lost power because of it lol

That's my point lol If he changed something people would've gotten mad and he didn't people are still mad. It's a lose-lose situation for him, even though he tried his best to compromise. Game design isn't killing the game, we are

 

[Trieste SP]

um. **** ICs.

Yes

 

[kenniky]

Things I miss from Brawl:


's fair
feeling good to play

 

[Fernosaur]

????

(I have killed someone with 's up-B before though)

12/51 Up-Bs that don't kill :'D. VARIETY.

let me see what character has a dthrow combo

wow 14/52

I'm assuming you meant these characters don't have a d-throw combo, because otherwise your post doesn't make sense. As an addendum to that, Greninja's up-throw functions basically the same as everyone else's d-throw, and Kirby uses d-throw to fair (I think?). Wii Fit's d-throw looks like it was meant to be a combo starter but it doesn't really work because lawl hitboxes.