• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

Fernosaur

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
1,923
Location
Mexico
NNID
Fernosaur
Tournament today!

I'll be re-money matching the guy who took my $20 last tournament.

But with a twist...

Zelda ditto MM!

I CANT WAIT FOR HIM TO FALL OUT OF MY FSMASH
NEVER use Din's Fire or Phantom.

Like, don't even think about it.

And he does teleport up her vag.
 

Alacion

Sunny skies
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
8,061
Location
Vancouver, BC
NNID
Alacion
3DS FC
0216-0918-5299
Btw, if you want a full list on what my whole team is like with items and moves too:

Talonflame
Red Card
Gale Wings
Adamant
252 HP/252 Atk/6 Spd
Roost
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
U-Turn

Slowbro
Leftovers
Regenerator
Relaxed
128 HP/252 Def/128 SDef/4 SAtk
Icy Wind
Scald
Flamethrower
Slack Off

Mawile
Mawilite
Intimidate/Huge Power
Adamant
200 HP/252 Atk/58 Def
Protect
Sucker Punch
Play Rough
Iron Head

Tornadus-T
Life Orb
Regenerator
Timid
228 HP/30 SAtk/252 Spd
Protect
Tailwind
HP Ground
Hurricane

Landorus-T
Sitrus Berry
Intimidate
Brave
228 HP/252 Atk/30 Def
Knock Off
EQ
Rock Slide
U-Turn

Sylveon
Choice Specs
Pixiliate
Timid
252 HP/228 SAtk/28 SDef/4 Spd
Hyper Voice
Shadow Ball
Psyshock
Moonblast
Okay I have some comments with this team.

Bird - Takes huge recoil damage so I think Roost is wasted especially since it dies in like one hit, two max. Replace Roost with Protect. Not sure about that Red Card. Since you're running U-Turn I don't see why you couldn't run Choice Band.

Slowbro - Almost never see non-Mega Slowbro. Seeing as you already have Tailwind, plus Icy Wind doesn't do Slowbro any favours I'd drop it. Replace it with Psychic or Ice Beam. Replace Flamethrower with the other.

Mawile - fine as is.

Tornadus - Good luck catching that. Move usage directly copied from Global Link:

1Hurricane90.0%
2Tailwind90.0%
3Rain Dance90.0%
4Protect90.0%
5Taunt20.0%
6Air Slash10.0%
7Icy Wind10.0%

Also seems like Charti Berry is it's most popular item.

Landorus - Adamant or Jolly only. Adamant is more common. Scarf or AV only. Scarf is more common. Look at http://nuggetbridge.com/forums/topic/12571-assault-vest-landorus-ev-spread-help/?p=166105 for AV Lando.

Sylveon - Why are you running Timid with no speed investment? It's so slow anyway that Timid only bumps its base speed of 60 to 66. Run Modest instead. Also, I would personally not use Moonblast. Base power of Moonblast is 95x1.5 = 142.5. Base power of Hyper Voice is 90x1.3x1.5x0.75 = 131.625 (Base 175.5 on single target). Not a huge difference. Replace it with HP Fire or Ground. I think Fire is more common.
 
Last edited:

「 Derk 」

4th times the charm...
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
648
Location
Ellijay, Georgia
NNID
D3RK-SSB4
Switch FC
SW-6389-5985-3965
NEVER use Din's Fire or Phantom.

Like, don't even think about it.

And he does teleport up her vag.
Now that you can wave bounce without sacrificing your pivot smashes, Din's Fire is pretty useful for movement if anything. You can quickly slide away from attacks while doing an attack of your own. But yeah, in a Zelda ditto don't do anything with lots of lag unless you are baiting the teleport.
 

Soul.

 
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
19,659
The competitive boards are cancer.
I tried to clarify something on a patch thread; my post gets deleted. lol.
 

SBphiloz4

Gatekeeper of the Shadows
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
3,649
NNID
SBphiloz4
3DS FC
3325-2450-2084
lol Macchiato exposing a fraudulent Pit, then the dude switched to Robin but didn't do much better lmao
 

SBphiloz4

Gatekeeper of the Shadows
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
3,649
NNID
SBphiloz4
3DS FC
3325-2450-2084
@ Macchiato Macchiato PLS WHY ARE WE ARGUING IF USMASH IS A GOOD MOVE OR NOT.

TFW more arguments of Rejection/Flare being good pls
 

Kofu

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
The caffeine-free state
NNID
Atoyont
3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
:4gaw:: Disagree. He has quick, disjointed attacks that deal good damage with like no lag (except landing lag). He has a great, near-gimpable recovery. And his smashes are on the slow side, but they're still powerful for their risk because they have little end lag. I don't get why people think he's so bad personally. Maybe it's because he got nerfed hard from brawl? But at least he deserved the nerfs because his smashes were insane; now they're more in line with how they should be. He seems like a decent character in my opinion.
He's... an interesting character. I do think he's likely bottom 10, not because his kit is bad, but because it just barely falls short against a lot of characters.

To address the various points of your post:
  • His attacks do have low end lag. That's probably one of his biggest selling points. I don't know if I'd call his attacks fast on startup though. Only jab, dash attack, DTilt, NAir, UAir, and his grabs come out in under 10 frames out his normals. Not horrible but not great either.
  • His disjoints are great and can wall people out just fine. Unfortunately they don't help much with approaching, especially since none of his aerials low jump autocancel (a trait which only Shulk and Mega Man share). Note that the lowest lag of any of his aerials is, IIRC, 12 frames.
  • His recovery is fantastic, no complaints there tbh.
  • His smashes feel a little too slow for the reward you get, mainly because two of them require a sweetspot to really kill. I probably wouldn't mess with USmash because of its invincibility cheese, but personally I would increase FSmash's power and shave one or two frames off of DSmash's startup. Having slow smashes would be workable if he had better kill options but he really doesn't. UAir kills at about the same percents as his smash attacks but it's hard to land (I believe you can combo into it out of DThrow with a good read, it may also be confirmed at specific percents but I need to work on my timing).
  • Rage generally works against him. Unlike other lightweights, Game & Watch doesn't have a quick-and-dirty kill move to end stocks. Jigglypuff has BAir and Rest, Mewtwo has UThrow, FAir, and arguably USmash, Rosalina has Luma stuff, and Fox has USmash/UAir. Kirby and Pikachu are kind of in the same boat, but Kirby can lead into USmash/DSmash from DAir with some level of consistency and has two killing throws to fall back on if push comes to shove, and Pikachu has far superior stage control to help him with traps. I honestly think they balanced Game & Watch with how quickly stocks can end from Judge 9 and Oil Panic. Unfortunately the first is inconsistent and the latter is risky to set up or simply unusable in a lot of matchups.
He generally loses to swordsmen because they can wall him out. Even Link beats him because of his projectiles. Robin I'm not sure about, it's probably even. He loses to heavies because they are difficult to kill, kill him early in return, and have big hitboxes to deny his approaches. Those MUs are kind of volatile though since Game & Watch can combo them well. He tends to lose to characters with fast mobility, especially ground mobility, because they can punish most of what he attempts to do. He also struggles against characters with fast frame data (hi Sheik).

He has good points for sure, but lacking a good approach really hurts him. When people don't know the MU he can be pretty abusive, but I'd they learn it his efficacy goes downhill quickly.
 

evmaxy54

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Messages
2,476
Location
I hate Tr4sh
NNID
maXywashere
Isn't 60:40/6:4 the same as a +1? How is that not a small advantage?
55:45 always seemed like a +1 MU to me, because it is only a slight advantage. 60:40 is an noticeable advantage to one character over another without the MU being one-sided, hence why it's an moderate advantage/+2 IMO

Since the ratios are usually interpreted as the theoretical number of wins (from a total of 100 matches) of two players of equal levels of skill & knowledge of their respective characters & their opponents characters playing against each other in a tournament setting. 60:40 means one character beats a certain other character 60 matches out of 40 given the aforementioned circumstances in theory.

What @ Macchiato Macchiato suggested in his MU spread is that we beat Robin & BJ 65:35, which means we should beat both characters 65 times out of 100 matches if we played a player of equal skill as us. And that is not a moderate advantage, that's theoretically & soundly kicking their ass.
 
Last edited:

SBphiloz4

Gatekeeper of the Shadows
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
3,649
NNID
SBphiloz4
3DS FC
3325-2450-2084
If rejection reflects then the utility is the same as Nayru's Love which is just to keep people away and reflect.
More start-up, less active frames, less range, more ending lag iirc. It's awful.

Also on the Twitch chat right now.

Macchiato: @ SBphiloz4 SBphiloz4 Zelda is high tier
Sbphiloz4: high tier in sucking lmao
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,950
Location
Colorado
When did the ratio system change? Back in Brawl it was 0 even, +/-1 small advantage, +2 moderate advantage, +3 strong advantage and +4 nearly not losable. I think people are getting confused because I think of 6/4 MUs as a moderate advantage, not slight advantage.
:4ganondorf:: Disagree. He just has so many more positive attributes than Zelda. His risk/reward ratio is incredibly good compared to Zelda's. He has one of the highest damage outputs, punishes harder than Zelda, has KO moves that are safer on shield (shield stun + they tend to push the shield away), is very dangerous off-stage, and is heavy. His moves are actually worth the risk.

:4charizard:: Disagree. His attacks are for the most part just better; super armor smashes with great power, super fast & powerful upsmash, two super armor recoveries, better mobility. He's bad but his moves have more redeeming qualities than Zelda's in my opinion.
I think you're probably right about the others but I still disagree with these 2^.

:4ganondorf:is strong but he has few real attack chains except flame choke. Even though he hits for 20-something damage (I'm not at home and don't have the data) he only gets one solid hit in at a time. His frame data is horrible. Jab, his fastest ground attack is frame 8 iirc. He is big with terrible ground and air mobility. At least Zelda has some frame 4 attacks (Dtilt iirc) and a much better grab and recovery. People are afraid of Ganon because he hits so hard but, like Brawl, he also gets shutdown extremely hard. His recovery is terrible too. He's better than Brawl and not the worst but still has the same basic problems.

:4charizard:
is very limited and predictable. It's huge and juggle bait even with armored rocksmash. It has bad air speed and slow fallspeed without any quick dropping aerials like Bowser's Dair. If the opponent knows how to space right :4charizard: has a heck of a time getting down. It has a good run speed but is big and easy to wall off. Its ground game is extremely linear and air game has terrible mobility all with a big hurtbox. Flare blitz is a good punish/recovery but doesn't help with :4charizard:'s key issues, same with rocksmash. Aside from flareblitz Char's recovery isn't very good, 2 short mid-air jumps and upB but with a huge hurtbox and bad air and fall speed. Exposing Charizard's blind spots is super effective.
 

SBphiloz4

Gatekeeper of the Shadows
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
3,649
NNID
SBphiloz4
3DS FC
3325-2450-2084
Someone on stream just backslashed his opponent and stage spiked him to take the set WUT
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Whoa, Pit's E3 2010 voice actor for Uprising sounds really... weird compared to Antony Del Rio who adds this charm to him sort of like how Mike Kelly sounds weird for Ratchet while James Arnold Taylor fits Ratchet more. Also, I'm pretty sure Palutena's voice actress wasn't Ali Hillis in the E3 2013 trailer either. She sounded much more calm like if she was Rosalina, Aerith, Aqua, or if Zelda actually had a voice actress, well, Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess Zelda since Skyward Sword Zelda would be more energetic and Hyrule Warriors might need someone who sounds badass. Ali just adds to that troll feel to Pally with her tone. Back to Pit, I think his E3 2010 voice actor would sound all right for Dark Pit with his voice deeper, but Dark Pit is more of a clone rather than a twin like Vergil who would end up growing up differently than Dante and end up with a different voice and such. Eh, I'm not really sure.
 

Gay Ginger

Make Smash Bros. Gay Again
Joined
Dec 23, 2014
Messages
924
Location
Massachusetts
Switch FC
3923-4397-1697
Lol at Zelda having a 65:35 MU in her favor.

(Lol at Zelda even having any MU in her favor :secretkpop:)

Sorry sis @ Macchiato Macchiato your denial optimism is too stronk for me.
 
Top Bottom