Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Kofu]

IIRC Zero is a fairly offensive player and he makes it work very well. Defensive play is easier at the lower levels because you're simply watching the opponent commit, letting you react to what options they have left. However, at high level play, playing defensively is very difficult because the players are more aware of what is safe, what pokes, and what can bait the defensive player into making a mistake. You know why no one else has gotten as good as results as Dabuz with Rosalina? It's because playing that way is very tiring and can be hard to yield rewards from. When you're on the offensive you can usually convert any hit into an advantage. Strong reaction time is more important to offensive play because you need to know how to stay in advantage and how to win neutral.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Anyway, Splatoon review copies seem to be out. Don't like how soon they are though.

Guess I'm not looking up anymore gamexplain. Only saw a tour of Inkopolis and the story mode intro.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's recovery probably could be maxed since Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump by themselves already cover a lot of distance and being able to use both allows for a lot of variety, Hydro Pump by itself makes Greninja hard to edgeguard since he can recovery in many different trajectories if the Greninja player is particularly creative with how he does it.

Greninja's defense would probably be pretty low though, but his offense I could imagine being close to maxed because he just gets so much reward upon hitting something.

I'm still surprised Greninja is middle-weight-ish, I expected him to be a lot lighter.

 

[Macchiato]

Characters that should have max stat things on Aero's website imo:

Recovery:
Speed:
Weight:
Difficulty:

 

[kenniky]

Difficulty:

Just because a character's bad doesn't mean they're difficult

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So in other news. (Large image)

Spoiler

I'm ok with this.

 

[Koiba]

Just because a character's bad doesn't mean they're difficult

is very light so she'll die early and you have to be smart with your rests.
is a very limited fighter in what he can do (No gimps, recovery, air game) which makes him harder to perfect and use.

 

[Macchiato]

Just because a character's bad doesn't mean they're difficult

no i think they are truly different hard to learn. They're fundamentals are completely different and both require extreme patience and perfect spacing. It's like completely learning a different thing in a way since they are both different from every character. Also for them not making mistakes are crucial.

 

[Alacion]

Oh I know at top levels of play defensive play doesn't work as well. Nobody I play in tournament plays the way you guys play.

Also, characters are way easier to master in this game too. In the time it takes you to be proficient in say 5 characters in Smash 4, you could maybe get away with 1-2 in Melee if one is Sheik/Marth, and probably 2 in Brawl.

In terms of Smash 4 character difficulty starting from most difficult, imo: Greninja, Rosalina, Shulk, then maybe Mac?

 

[Rizen]

IMO the competitive sites community is pretty good. But then again I tend to ignore jerks and things like the competitive impressions thread. Annoying trolls should be ignored as they feed on human misery like parasites.
The other social media communities like youtube etc can be very toxic but what else is new?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm glad everyone's so passionate about the max stats thing but there's actually numbers behind Weight/Speed at least so none of them will be changing.

Edit: Also Mac is really simple to play. It's not hard to play a character that only has half a moveset.

 

[Trieste SP]

no i think they are truly different hard to learn. They're fundamentals are completely different and both require extreme patience and perfect spacing. It's like completely learning a different thing in a way since they are both different from every character. Also for them not making mistakes are crucial.

I agree with this. I myself is trying to learn Little Mac and it's hard to be good with him. You have to be so on point or you're just going to die.

 

[Lorde]

but there's actually numbers behind Weight/Speed at least so none of them will be changing.

That's why I put the top 3 fatties on mine

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's why I put the top 3 fatties on mine

Bower's true weight is in a tier of its own though.

 

[kenniky]

Ok

Everyone agrees that Charizard is extremely lacking, no?

So therefore he's more difficult to play, in order to overcome his disadvantages one needs to play smart with what he has

Well

Spoiler: nope

 

[Space Stranger]

Ok

Everyone agrees that Charizard is extremely lacking, no?

So therefore he's more difficult to play, in order to overcome his disadvantages one needs to play smart with what he has

Well

Spoiler: nope

i.e.

FLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZ

 

[kenniky]

i.e.

FLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZFLAREBLITZ

DASH ATTACK LOL TOTALLY SAFE ON SHIELD
ROLLOUT IS LITERALLY THE BEST MOVE EVER

argument invalid

Difficulty pertains to how hard it is to play a character well, according to the arguments people are making.

Therefore anyone who is significantly lacking (Charizard, Mii Swordfighter, Lucina) should be a very high difficulty

But obviously not.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ok

Everyone agrees that Charizard is extremely lacking, no?

So therefore he's more difficult to play, in order to overcome his disadvantages one needs to play smart with what he has

Well

Spoiler: nope

He's a really, really simple character who has LARGE and FAST hitboxes.

That doesn't make him "good" though because his best options are predictable, he's still susceptible to being camped despite his speed and he's combo fodder thanks to his weight and floatiness.

It's rly important you don't take these images as to how good a character is as a whole, but rather what parts of their kit they specialize in.

 

[Macchiato]

He's a really, really simple character who has LARGE and FAST hitboxes.

That doesn't make him "good" though because his best options are predictable, he's still susceptible to being camped despite his speed and he's combo fodder thanks to his weight and floatiness.

It's rly important you don't take these images as to how good a character is as a whole, but rather what parts of their kit they specialize in.

what do you think about Jiggs and L Mac's Difficulty?

 

[kenniky]

He's a really, really simple character who has LARGE and FAST hitboxes.

That doesn't make him "good" though because his best options are predictable, he's still susceptible to being camped despite his speed and he's combo fodder thanks to his weight and floatiness.

It's rly important you don't take these images as to how good a character is as a whole, but rather what parts of their kit they specialize in.

Little Mac specializes in ground play, no? Character doesn't seem too difficult if you can completely ignore five of their moves and the jump button.

EDIT: did not see edit to post above

still don't think Jigglypuff is that hard to play, it's literally just kick people in air and use Rest when overlapping

 

[Moydow]

@evmaxy54 please tell me not all of the top players in Ireland are salty For Glory sore losers. Just played one of the names on the Irish power rankings, and... well, I thought I did fairly well - almost beat him with Marth, switched to ZSS and two-stocked him, and then almost went to time in the third match, until he got a lucky b-air with about 5 seconds left. What did I get for my efforts? "ZEROSKILL" Normally I'd just laugh it off as FG being FG, but it's the fact I recognised the name (even seen him around SmashBoards a few times), and that he's supposedly one of the top players in the country, that's really gotten to me.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

what do you think about Jiggs and L Mac's Difficulty?

overwhelmingly simple. Both characters are missing half a moveset (no good offensive specials minus... Pound... Rest and Mac Up B, no aerial game (Mac), limited grounded game (Jiggs).

All you have to do to play both of those characters well is space properly.

Just because a character is BAD does not make them HARD TO PLAY

See:

Zelda - Bad, but needs a lot of precision to play effectively (LK, Up B OoS, Ledgecancels etc)
Lucina - Bad, but literally fsmash the character

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Little Mac specializes in ground play, no? Character doesn't seem too difficult if you can completely ignore five of their moves and the jump button.

EDIT: did not see edit to post above

still don't think Jigglypuff is that hard to play, it's literally just kick people in air and use Rest when overlapping

why are you quoting me and then agreeing with me but sounding like you're disagreeing at the same time

 

[Macchiato]

overwhelmingly simple. Both characters are missing half a moveset (no good offensive specials minus... Pound... Rest and Mac Up B, no aerial game (Mac), limited grounded game (Jiggs).

All you have to do to play both of those characters well is space properly.

Just because a character is BAD does not make them HARD TO PLAY

See:

Zelda - Bad, but needs a lot of precision to play effectively (LK, Up B OoS, Ledgecancels etc)
Lucina - Bad, but literally fsmash the character

Yes but one mistake could be the end of their stock even at a high percent. Jiggly dies too early and one whiff could do anything. Also that shield thing. Little Mac's recovery LOL. Zelda is good though :^)

 

[Alacion]

Mac I'm not sure but I feel like lacking that aerial game especially outside of For Glory makes things rather hard. I don't play him though so I can't be sure. Puff definitely is not up there in terms of difficulty.

Zelda isn't hard to use at all. Hard to win with her for sure though.

 

[UkeNicky]

Would Robin or Olimar be eligible for max difficulty?
They seem like hard to learn characters that yield good results when you have finally got them down but Idunno they both have those limiting factors (Limited spells/Pikmin)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yes but one mistake could be the end of their stock even at a high percent. Jiggly dies too early and one whiff could do anything. Also that shield thing. Little Mac's recovery LOL. Zelda is good though :^)

You being bad =/= the character being hard to play. It just means you're punished for being garbage harder.

 

[Soul.]

If we're talking about difficulty I'm not sure where the **** would I put Pikachu in.

 

[Rizen]

Difficulty playing a character has nothing to do with how good they are. For example Link is extremely dificult to play competitively. He's very unforgiving but also incredibly versatile. You don't just press B to spam; all his projectiles are incredibly complex and need to work with his other moves. Arrows need the right charge to go the right distance. Boomerangs have a soft and hard throw at 3 angles each. Bombs have a ton of ATs, soft and hard throws in 4 directions each, Zair drop, dodge>zair not to drop, a ticking timer and put Link in a different state when he holds them. You have to keep track of 4 or 5 things in every match at most times.
And Link is a bad character.
Ganon is worse than Link but much easier to play. Falcon is much better than Link and much easier to play.

IMO Link is the hardest character to use at a competitive level.

 

[Macchiato]

You being bad =/= the character being hard to play. It just means you're punished for being garbage harder.

idk for me peach was easy to learn but it took me a month to learn jigglypuff. I still can't little mac. idk maybe its just me but characters like peach and greninja were super easy to learn.

 

[Lavani]

Spoiler: evidence.zip

 

[Alacion]

Would Robin or Olimar be eligible for max difficulty?
They seem like hard to learn characters that yield good results when you have finally got them down but Idunno they both have those limiting factors (Limited spells/Pikmin)

Agree with Robin, disagree with Olimar.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Would Robin or Olimar be eligible for max difficulty?
They seem like hard to learn characters that yield good results when you have finally got them down but Idunno they both have those limiting factors (Limited spells/Pikmin)

Both characters are pretty simple because they're zoners.

Throw **** at the opponent and punish how they react to it, hitconfirms from Side B and B are quite easy. idk I think i gave robin a 6 or 7.

Zelda isn't hard to use at all. Hard to win with her for sure though.

Disagree

I can see why people think difficulty is an inverse tier list though.

If we're talking about difficulty I'm not sure where the **** would I put Pikachu in.

rly ****ing hard tier i guess

 

[Alacion]

Think I'm struggling to draw the line between success and being proficient in a character. Like Robin... I think her poor speed makes her difficult to do much with ease but whether that comes down to a "character being easy" or inherent skill I can't be sure.

Zelda is not difficult based on how good she is at low-mid levels of play. Requires so little skill and very little need for side aerials. Spotdodge/shield, up b, c-stick. Next to no combo game makes it even easier.

Smash 4 is the easiest version to master some characters like Pikachu and Peach.


Need I remind you guys of Zelda's recovery in Brawl vs. Smash 4?

 

[UkeNicky]

This topic is difficult

 

[SBphiloz4]

Meanwhile, bad players can get away with using and on For Glory and win because lag and roll spam and stupidness.

These two characters made my chips I had today more... flavourful than it usually has been.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Think I'm struggling to draw the line between success and being proficient in a character. Like Robin... I think her poor speed makes her difficult to do much with ease but whether that comes down to a "character being easy" or inherent skill I can't be sure.

Zelda is not difficult based on how good she is at low-mid levels of play. Requires so little skill and very little need for side aerials. Spotdodge/shield, up b, c-stick. Next to no combo game makes it even easier.

Zelda's always been a noobstomper though, I mean so many people at the release of Brawl (and even here in Smash 4) called Din's Fire "overpowered", and Zelda "high tier".

But I'm talking about difficulty where your opponent ISN'T a vegetable and actually moves and presses buttons. lol

 

[Rizen]

Some characters do very well in lag and others are nerfed for sure.

Anyone want to wifi? (lol)

 

[Soul.]

rly ****ing hard tier i guess

i dunno, mastering QA takes a while but it's nothing hard. "combos" are basic stuff. Then after that it's.... How to use Jolts/Thunder properly, how to jab lock effectively, how to use grabs.
Real practice is nothing like the **** I see on FG with scrub Pikachu spamming Jolts, dsmash and Thunder instead of doing something else.

I could be wrong.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Difficulty should be defined as how hard it is to play a character to their fullest potential. Very difficult characters to play would be Peach and Shulk, whereas Zelda and Charizard would not be difficult characters because even though it can be difficult to win with them, they're not very hard to play to their fullest potential