Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Fernosaur]

Well i want to know as much as i can before giving a verbal smackdown if needed

I remember reading up on the Villager boards that Rosalina was one of the hardest MUs for Villager, but honestly after fighting quite a good number of them with my own, I can say it's the same problem everyone used to have with her before. They were all trying to camp her and zone her out because lawl Villagers, but the thing is you have to play footsies with Luma all the time while trying to get Rosalina with turnips or nairs. Nair is actually an incredibly useful tool in the MU because it stuns Luma for a second while knocking Rosalina back slightly. As long as you keep separating them a little bit you're gonna be fine.

Another thing to note which is VERY important: Don't use ledge-bowling ball to try and kill Rosalina (unless she's recovering completely vertical). F-smash on ledge is super useful because it will instantly get rid of Luma, which is something Villager is terrible at doing thanks to his low-knockback or multihit attacks.

I still think it's an advantage on Rosalina's side, but it's definitely not as bad as most Villagers think it is. GP is not a completely free spammable move, and you can start baiting it out anyways. On top of that, it doesn't really pose a real threat or risk to Villager, unlike Reflectors.

 

[EODM07]

Hmm, I just wondered something, what if Fox had SSB4 Falco's/Brawl Wolf's Bair? Same power, hit frames, and all. Also, what if Zelda's Bair and/or Fair were changed to SSB4 Falco's/Brawl Wolf's Bair? No longer sweet-spots, the range is the same as her current Bair and Fair while having same power, hit frames, and all as SSB4 Falco's/Brawl Wolf's Bair.

Did I just create two monsters?

If Zelda could JC her Neutral B just like Fox/Falco's Down-B in Melee, then yes. You'll have created a glorious monster. We will call it... @ Ffamran 's Monster.

 

[Alacion]

Anybody wanna play? Have 30mins-ish to spare.

 

[Locuan]

@ Lavani , forget what I said about

I did not like Gen V but that Gen did have something amazing and it's my favorite ghost/pokémon which I forgot about because gen V hate. My second favorite typing is water so you might guess where I'm going with this. FREAKING JELLICENT.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, this thread exists: http://smashboards.com/threads/moves-that-could-work-as-taunts.398837/. Have fun.

Did Falco's Dair clank with Fox's Bair here? Fox's Bair probably doesn't make him invincible and Falco's late hitbox on his Dair should have hit... Is hit lag the cause of this? Or maybe Fox's fall speed?

If Zelda could JC her Neutral B just like Fox/Falco's Down-B in Melee, then yes. You'll have created a glorious monster. We will call it... @ Ffamran 's Monster.

I feel there should be a day where we theorycraft ways to break characters even more, like give Ganondorf Mario or Sheik's frame data.

 

[BJN39]

Can I make a Zeldaganda request?
It'd be amazing if someone photoshopped Zelda's face onto the woman's face in the gif. The man on the floor could be either Irrelevina, Diddy, or Cancer. The woman holding the man down could be anyone.

Spoiler: The Gif

View attachment 47330

tysm ily u all

Uhh, there IS a frame of that GIF where you can see it all fyi risqué

 

[Lorde]

K here goes:

Spoiler

About Luigi: I guess you're right. Doesn't really make that much of a difference I guess And oh I was talking about Fair and Nair's sweetspot. I still think Fair does too much damage for the move's frame data, though.

About Peach: I guess that does make sense too. I think her Fair is unexpectedly powerful in this game, but I'm also not sure how much it would hurt her (read: probly a lot) if it was slightly nerfed. She does have quite a bit of kill options in this game, though, so maybe it wouldn't hurt her as much.

About DK: Then dunno LOL.

About Diddy: Didn't I write up nerfs to his uair? I was sure I did. Anyways yeah more BKB, less KBG on uair, and the hitbox shouldn't be as ridiculously big as it is currently.

About Zelda: The thing is, Zelda would still have trouble getting in because Zelda. Even if nair-FW was a guaranteed finisher, I don't think that's necessarily too bad since she still retains most of her weaknesses. I don't thikn giving Zelda a kill confirm would be as terrible since 90% of her moveset is already really unsafe anyways. At least Nair shouldn't have the ridiculous amount of landing lag it does have.

About Sheik: I fail to see how a frame 3 move that is as disjointed as Sheik's fair is would end up being useless if it couldn't chain into itself more than three times. Seriously, frame 3, disjointed. Maybe up the damage by like 1% but that move is still ridiculous as ****.

About Ganon: I didn't say superarmor on Side B, though. More like the kind of armor Snake had on his Cypher, which was like a 7% armor or something like that. The idea is that some tilts and smashes could still cancel it out but not long-lasting multihit moves, etc. Superarmor on Wizard's Foot sounds okay I guess. The move is kinda difficult to intercept with an attack in any case.

Heck, tbh, if it was up to me I'd completely redesign Ganon and Zelda to make them more loyal to their respective incarnations (and more useful as well). In that vein, Ganon would be able to levitate, use magic projectiles, and would have a sword. But that's borderline fanwank so I'm not going there...

Other character thoughts:

: Fix her tilts not to be weird long-lasting multihits, but single hit faster attacks instead. The animations are fine, it's just that her staff doesn't have to do so many turns. Also, change Reflect Barrier to neutral B, Super Speed to regular Side-B, and Auto-Reticle to Down-B. Lightweight is broken as **** so I won't even talk about that one.

: Giving her more range comparable to C. Falcon's attacks (but not jab lol) would honestly make her a very good character. F-smash, D-smash, F-air (!!!), B-air, U-tilt, D-tilt (could have a range similar to Villager's), and maaaaybe F-tilt's front hitboxes need to have an extra hit bubble. Maybe give them all a sweetspot when closer to WFT a la Roy, but the extra range would help so much. I'd be wary of giving U-smash more vertical reach, but it should at least have sourspot hitboxes to the sides like Marth's and Peach's.

: Goodbye kill throws. Goodbye super strong u-smash. I think giving him an armor of like 4% on Spin Dash could help him out with zoners (cough Megaman) if you took away his killpower in lieu of the hit and run.

: Nair's initial hitbox that's close to MM's body honestly shouldn't be there in the first place. Same thing for jab. Focus on the projectiles for the hitboxes and his melee attacks for CQC, I don't see why nair and jab should do both while also keeping closing opponents away.

: Slightly more range on his smashes wouldn't hurt.

: Give him his b-air strings back, maybe dealing less damage, but he needs more combos in order to be a good character in comparison to Link.

I don't think slightly nerfing Peach's fair would affect her very much. It's a really slow move so maybe making it a few frames faster and lowering landing lag, but reducing BKB/KBG could possibly improve her. She has a ton of other kill options, so it's not like she's super reliant on fair. In fact, Sm4sh Peach should be very conservative with fair because it's so slow and laggy.

I strongly agree that Sonic should be reverted back to his Brawl incarnation. A character of his speed should not have super strong kill throws and kill moves in general. He should have to deal with slower moves for his kills (fsmash, bair, etc.).

WFT with more range actually sounds pretty scary. Her lacklustre range is probably the biggest thing holding her back.

I think TLink needs to have a ton less lag on his aerials. Like, why does swinging a tiny, plastic sword cause like 20+ frames of lag? Other than that, I think he's pretty well designed.

Uhh, there IS a frame of that GIF where you can see it all fyi risqué

lol i didn't even see that. forgive me, sisT.

 

[Macchiato]

you have a 3DS?

No

 

[Fernosaur]

I don't think slightly nerfing Peach's fair would affect her very much. It's a really slow move so maybe making it a few frames faster and lowering landing lag, but reducing BKB/KBG could possibly improve her. She has a ton of other kill options, so it's not like she's super reliant on fair. In fact, Sm4sh Peach should be very conservative with fair because it's so slow and laggy.

I strongly agree that Sonic should be reverted back to his Brawl incarnation. A character of his speed should not have super strong kill throws and kill moves in general. He should have to deal with slower moves for his kills (fsmash, bair, etc.).

WFT with more range actually sounds pretty scary. Her lacklustre range is probably the biggest thing holding her back.

I think TLink needs to have a ton less lag on his aerials. Like, why does swinging a tiny, plastic sword make causes like 20+ frames of lag? Other than that, I think he's pretty well designed.


lol i didn't even see that. forgive me, sisT.

There you go for Peach I guess.

I don't think Sonic should fully revert to his Brawl incarnation, cause to be quite honest he was kinda bad. I don't think his U-smash shouldn't be a kill move. It's perfectly fine as a finisher, the thing is the move is too powerful for it to last as long as it lasts. It should start killing at 120% ish, like Zelda's. I think his f-throw is fine as a finisher because iirc it only kills past 140 or 150%.

And WFT... the thing is her bad range isn't holding her back, it's making her almost pointless. There are people who try to rep her but I've never seen anyone win with her except for Macchiato against certain people. But tbh, even if she's mobile, etc, her range and lack of kill options limit her TOO much. I think she's got it even worse than Zelda.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ Lorde

I hope this is what Zelda does to Diddy when the patch comes out on Wednesday :^)

 

[Lorde]

I don't think Sonic should fully revert to his Brawl incarnation, cause to be quite honest he was kinda bad. I don't think his U-smash shouldn't be a kill move. It's perfectly fine as a finisher, the thing is the move is too powerful for it to last as long as it lasts. It should start killing at 120% ish, like Zelda's. I think his f-throw is fine as a finisher because iirc it only kills past 140 or 150%.

I think Sonic's a stupid character and shouldn't have been in Smash 4 to begin with, so I'm perfectly fine with him being terrible. Fthrow is fine, but stuff like guaranteed 30% combos out of Spin Dash and bthrow being super strong need to go. His moves are simply too rewarding for a character of his speed.

And WFT... the thing is her bad range isn't holding her back, it's making her almost pointless. There are people who try to rep her but I've never seen anyone win with her except for Macchiato against certain people. But tbh, even if she's mobile, etc, her range and lack of kill options limit her TOO much. I think she's got it even worse than Zelda.

Uair, ftilt, smashes, fair spike, and header spike are all kill moves. With customs, she gets Volatile Breathing and the SS that gets smaller when you charge it. Deep Breathing helps her out a lot with killing, but she does seem to be kinda reliant on it. Her range is obviously an intentional thing. Possibly it's to balance out Deep Breathing since it could be stupidly good if she had range. Imo, Zelda and WFT are very close to each other on the tier list. I'd even say they'd be right next to each other.

@ Lorde

I hope this is what Zelda does to Diddy when the patch comes out on Wednesday :^)

It's fantastic. The only thing is that you can see the woman's breast for a second. Sorry I didn't notice it. You could cover it up with a Jigglypuff or something lol.

 

[Macchiato]

WFT with more range actually sounds pretty scary. Her lacklustre range is probably the biggest thing holding her back.

Her dsmash and fsmash definitely need faster start up and less landing lag. I would complain about usmash but you can combo into it at 80% and it's crazy strong.

Her utilt IMO should just be removed.

Back hit of ftilt should be just a little stronger.

Also they should increase her healing. Really? 1%. IMO a fully charged SS should be 5% while a deep breath should be 10%, then 5%, then 3%.

 

[Lorde]

I forgot that people don't get alerts when you edit the tag into your post.

@ BJN39 can you merge my above posts (and delete this one)? tysm sis

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Lorde

I hope this is what Zelda does to Diddy when the patch comes out on Wednesday :^)

My friend tagged me on the full video on facebook, its a shame people go out to body slam each other like wrestlers.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@berserker. Thank you.

OMFGGGGGGG

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH

 

[Furret]

Her dsmash and fsmash definitely need faster start up and less landing lag. I would complain about usmash but you can combo into it at 80% and it's crazy strong.

Her utilt IMO should just be removed.

Back hit of ftilt should be just a little stronger.

Also they should increase her healing. Really? 1%. IMO a fully charged SS should be 5% while a deep breath should be 10%, then 5%, then 3%.

were you complaining in TKbreez stream earlier? I feel like I heard some of these unneeded changes there as well

 

[Lavani]

Did Falco's Dair clank with Fox's Bair here? Fox's Bair probably doesn't make him invincible and Falco's late hitbox on his Dair should have hit... Is hit lag the cause of this? Or maybe Fox's fall speed?

Respawn invuln.

About Sheik: I fail to see how a frame 3 move that is as disjointed as Sheik's fair is would end up being useless if it couldn't chain into itself more than three times. Seriously, frame 3, disjointed. Maybe up the damage by like 1% but that move is still ridiculous as ****.

About Ganon: I didn't say superarmor on Side B, though. More like the kind of armor Snake had on his Cypher, which was like a 7% armor or something like that. The idea is that some tilts and smashes could still cancel it out but not long-lasting multihit moves, etc. Superarmor on Wizard's Foot sounds okay I guess. The move is kinda difficult to intercept with an attack in any case.

: Fix her tilts not to be weird long-lasting multihits, but single hit faster attacks instead. The animations are fine, it's just that her staff doesn't have to do so many turns. Also, change Reflect Barrier to neutral B, Super Speed to regular Side-B, and Auto-Reticle to Down-B. Lightweight is broken as **** so I won't even talk about that one.

: Giving her more range comparable to C. Falcon's attacks (but not jab lol) would honestly make her a very good character. F-smash, D-smash, F-air (!!!), B-air, U-tilt, D-tilt (could have a range similar to Villager's), and maaaaybe F-tilt's front hitboxes need to have an extra hit bubble. Maybe give them all a sweetspot when closer to WFT a la Roy, but the extra range would help so much. I'd be wary of giving U-smash more vertical reach, but it should at least have sourspot hitboxes to the sides like Marth's and Peach's.

: Goodbye kill throws. Goodbye super strong u-smash. I think giving him an armor of like 4% on Spin Dash could help him out with zoners (cough Megaman) if you took away his killpower in lieu of the hit and run.

Spoiler

's fair isn't disjointed, and it's frame 5. The things that make the move crazy good are the fact that it's safe on shield spaced because of the autocancel and it starts strings (mainly into more of itself). Unfortunately I'm not really sure how it can be made less safe without ruining its potential as a combo tool as well - I'm not defending things like fair strings across the stage, but I think things like fair>BF and fair>bair are positive for the character, and are going to stop working if fair>fair stops working. I guess at the very least it could autocancel later in a way that sh rising fair>stuff works but not landing fair, which'd also make it worse against shields.

idk I guess having the one grab with pseudo-grab armor wouldn't be the worst thing, it just strikes me as a weird design choice to put armor on a grab.

I think the concept of her tilts as lingering hitboxes is fine and unique, they just need less startup (ftilt's slower to start than her smash attacks) and less end lag (she's already stuck in place forever spinning her staff, she doesn't need to be stuck in place even longer afterward). Damage could stand to be increased too because even when they hit the reward is garbage.

Can agree with more range, I was messing around with this character last night and it was kind of depressing. Namely her grab should extend further downward, because it whiffs so many short/crouching characters. I'd also increase the buff duration on Deep Breathing; move takes quite a bit of time to initiate, but its duration is so short opponents can easily just not engage and wait it out.

Armor on spin dash is a really bad idea imo, most characters use their jabs to beat out spin dash and it's going to beat those if it beats pellets. He can keep fthrow for kills, bthrow is too good though. Unsure if usmash really needs nerfs either, it's frame 19 and pretty unsafe, though it does kill kinda early and is brutal with Hammer Spin Dash.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

It's fantastic. The only thing is that you can see the woman's breast for a second. Sorry I didn't notice it. You could cover it up with a Jigglypuff or something lol.

No problem gorl. I edited my post with the SFW, Jiggly filled version :^)

 

[Fernosaur]

Uair, ftilt, smashes, fair spike, and header spike are all kill moves. With customs, she gets Volatile Breathing and the SS that gets smaller when you charge it. Deep Breathing helps her out a lot with killing, but she does seem to be kinda reliant on it. Her range is obviously an intentional thing. Possibly it's to balance out Deep Breathing since it could be stupidly good if she had range. Imo, Zelda and WFT are very close to each other on the tier list. I'd even say they'd be right next to each other.

Sure, those are all kill moves and wtv, but the thing is, a kill move doesn't matter much if it's nigh impossible to land it. What I was saying was that those moves need more range with perhaps a sweetspot mechanic if they're closer to WFT.

Also they should increase her healing. Really? 1%. IMO a fully charged SS should be 5% while a deep breath should be 10%, then 5%, then 3%.

Yeah no. Just no :'D. Deep breathing healing 5% already seems super excessive to me. SS could heal 2% at most.

OMFGGGGGGG

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH

I know you do~

 

[Macchiato]

were you complaining in TKbreez stream earlier? I feel like I heard some of these unneeded changes there as well

No lol

Sure, those are all kill moves and wtv, but the thing is, a kill move doesn't matter much if it's nigh impossible to land it. What I was saying was that those moves need more range with perhaps a sweetspot mechanic if they're closer to WFT.



Yeah no. Just no :'D. Deep breathing healing 5% already seems super excessive to me. SS could heal 2% at most.


I know you do~

1-2% healing is pretty useless

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

How's the Waifu doing this fine afternoon? :3

*slaps* >: (

I was gonna borrow it from a friend once he was finished with it. Is it really that bad?

Nooooooo. It's amazing! It's tied between Kirby Air Ride as my personal recommended best spin off.

Amazing music, creative and hard level design. Introducing a new element every stage.

And the mini games are heaven. Pure fanservice bliss.

I only have two negative complaints. The main villain, and the final boss.

 

[Fernosaur]

No lol

1-2% healing is pretty useless

Yeah but healing isn't the only thing those moves do. It's basically just an extra. SS is already a chargeable projectile that can kill at high percents and DB boosts her attack power. I agree with Lavani that it should last for much longer, though.

 

[Macchiato]

@ CatRaccoonBL I main the space waifu

I remember when all the coffee pals were always here. Now it's just me and @ Lavani :^(

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

@ CatRaccoonBL I main the space waifu

Except you don't. Tell me that again in a month.

Then we can talk about the space waifu.

 

[Macchiato]

Except you don't. Tell me that again in a month.

Then we can talk about the space waifu.

I mained her for 2 months on my banned alt account. So does that count?

 

[Lorde]

Except you don't. Tell me that again in a month.

Then we can talk about the space waifu.

I've mained her since the release of the 3DS version. Can I join the exclusive Space Waifu club?

 

[Lavani]

When we all had Rosalina avatars I was the last person to switch

I'm the realest space waifu fan

 

[Macchiato]

Except you don't. Tell me that again in a month.

Then we can talk about the space waifu.

Nvm, I like Wii fit trainer

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I mained her for 2 months on my banned alt account. So does that count?

A little bit yes...but mostly no. What matters is how much you care now. Which, even if you had previous knowledge, doesn't mean you are going to main her this time. After all, you did leave her once in that case.

I mean really, you apparently had a good peach and zelda, and yet you left them. You have almost no reason to stick with her after seeing that.

I've mained her since the release of the 3DS version. Can I join the exclusive Space Waifu club?

Yes!

Nvm, I like Wii fit trainer

 

[Macchiato]

A little bit yes...but mostly no. What matters is how much you care now. Which, even if you had previous knowledge, doesn't mean you are going to main her this time. After all, you did leave her once in that case.

I mean really, you apparently had a good peach and zelda, and yet you left them. You have almost no reason to stick with her after seeing that.


Yes!

Ehh I gave up on peach. Zelda is on the brink of being gave up on. I came back to waifu trainer

 

[FullMoon]

I'm back home gurls

 

[Soul.]

lol goes back to Wii Fit.

 

[warionumbah2]

You're gonna stay at that same level by bouncing from character to character uncontrollably.

You should stop saying 'main' and instead say 'a new character im using' because you don't even properly main that character to say you actually 'main' them.

 

[Antonykun]

You're gonna stay at that same level by bouncing from character to character uncontrollably.

You should stop saying 'main' and instead say 'a new character im using' because you don't even properly main that character to say you actually 'main' them.

Why am I not surprised the metaknight main is saying such harsh truths

 

[Ffamran]

Respawn invuln.

Oh... derp.

Edit: @Omega Tyrant made another Volcano Kick montage.

 

[|ven|]

2 days left.​

 

[Antonykun]

i just realized the E shop is going to crash due to everyone downloading Mewtwo T.T

 

[Blossom ✿]

All of a strange sudden, I'm starting to really enjoy playing Ike. I might seriously consider picking him up as a secondary.

 

[Lorde]

View attachment 47354
2 days left.​

There's only like 3.5 hours left of today. At this point, you can say that there's only 1 day left, sis.

 

[Ffamran]

View attachment 47354
2 days left.​

Celebratory dancing commences.