Every move
how manynerfs can we expect on the 15?
Have yew herd?
They're all broken!
Some are so broken they literally don't even function to the point of missing at point blank, or dropping characters before the final hit! :D
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Have yew herd?
They're all broken!
Some are so broken they literally don't even function to the point of missing at point blank, or dropping characters before the final hit! :D
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 19,659
mk: edgy kirby recolor
don't blame it all on me m8
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Lol, Greninja is B- in viability in Ubers. And Greninja is at least made of significantly more resistant wet paper at least.
warionumbah2
Smash Master
MK is only edgy in Smash just like how Bowser looks more 'rough and tough' in this game compared to his silly look in Mario games.
And Falcon being hotblooded and loud when in F-Zero GX he's that boring hero with the boring voice. List goes on.
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 19,659
It's B- because it's only used as a suicide lead (Spikes/Hydro/Ice Beam/filler). Useless after that.
it's still frail as ****. Almost every Uber Pokémon beats the **** out of it.
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Lorde
Let 'em talk
>72/67/71 defenses
>significantly more resistant
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Is this the meaning to life
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Compared to Pikachu's 35/40/50, it is =V
And Pikachu's defenses were even worse pre-Gen VI. If GF wanted to make the mouse more significant, then why the hell did they buff his defenses of all things? I can't even.
I was thinking about what changes could be good for the roster to be more balanced in general, and for characters' movesets to be more faithful to their (apparent) intended design. I was gonna write this up last night but SLEEP, so here it goes now...
@
Lavani
since you're probably the only person interested, I'm only gonna tag you 
Spoilered because tl;dr
Note: Please mind that I'm mentioning these changes completely from a game design PoV. I don't claim to be a Smash expert, but I've noticed a lot of the movesets in the game don't really stick true to the archetype each character represents.
This only takes into consideration non-custom movesets.
: Unchanged. He's got a very healthy balance of speed and power and decent recovery, which is how Mario should have been from day 1 - the "standard."
: Increase KBG on d-throw. Reduce Fair's sweetspot damage by 2%. Also increase fireball's endlag by some 3 or 4 frames. Luigi should suffer a bit more for his lack of mobility instead of having a good zoning tool.
: Slightly reduce U-smash's KBG. Make D-tilt's knocback upwards instead of downwards (it gets randomly teched sometimes) and give it a weaker hitbox far out that has lower kb but a chance of tripping, which I think is more appropriate for Peach's playstyle than having a random grounded meteor.
: Unchanged.
: Not quite sure. If anything, Yoshi strikes me as being in an awkward spot of being very powerful but at the same time not as powerful. So far I'll say unchanged.
: Reduce u-tilt and u-air sweetspot's BKB slightly (Luma only). Increase KBG on u-tilt sweetspot. Apart from the ridic early killpower on those moves, she's a very well designed and pretty balanced character IMO. People just struggle with her because it's really hard to remember you have two opponents instead of one.
: He's the toughest of the Mario characters, because his design doesn't really make it clear what the purpose of his attacks are. He has potential to be a good juggler and has some good CQC moves, but the nature of his specials would suggest that he's a zoner/camper, and they don't give him particularly complimentary tools. I personally don't think he needs to camp, but if anything I'd say any change should be in how his projectiles work. The Cannon ball should be faster and able to be angled up or down, and it should keep its hitbox properties while bouncing, similar to Brawler's Shot Put. Alternatively, it could remain in the battlefield for a while so that it could be grabbed like an item as well. The power would have to be reduced, though. Mechakoopa also needs a lot less endlag, similar to Diddy's bananas, and maybe they could be "charged" to increase the distance at which it is shot, not unlike ROB's Gyro. In more minute changes, the hitboxes on his F-smash shouldn't have a blindspot, and in general I'd say the move needs a little more horizontal range. U-air should deal 1 or 2% more in damage, and u-tilt should come out a bit faster.
: Unchaged. Solid aerial design imo.
: Bucket should be able to get "cancelled" when successfully absorbing a projectile, similar to Ness's PSI Magnet. Other than that, I think some of his Brawl stuff should come back, like his F-smash not having a sweetspot and having a lingering hitbox. His turtle having the landing hitbox would help him wonders, IMO, since it was able to poke shields iirc. U-smash's hitbox should be way bigger too. Maybe not MARIO bigger, but considerably.
: Fully charged aerial DK punch doesn't leave helpless. Other than that I am not entirely sure how to make DK much better. Maybe give his limbs invincibility on tilts and smashes, so that his attacks get the "Bowser" treatment of superarmor. He's never gonna stop being combo food, so at least he should be able to space better.
: Reduce damage of most attacks by at least 1 or 2%. Give Fair some landing lag. If it's gonna have the same range as Marth's attacks, then it should receive the same treatment, making Diddy unable to spam the move defensively or offensively. Increase uair's BKB a bit and decrease it's KBG significantly. Also, tweak that hitbox not to be a ridiculous move that covers most of Diddy's everything. His U-smash should be weaker as well, if not one of the weakest in the game. With those changes I think Diddy goes back to being a speedy character that can combo a lot but that has to work harder for his kills.
: Fix his grab's farthest hitbox so that the claw actually grabs. Remove D-air's spike so that the sweetspot becomes a powerful vertical finisher as it was before. Link's subpar recovery doesn't make it so d-air is a usable meteor, and it took away a wonderful killing option to throw into his mindgames. Other than that, Link is also a pretty well balanced character I think, specially in this iteration of Smash. Perhaps the Balanced Brawl treatment in which he could use his clawshot out of Up-B would be nice but his recovery isn't nearly as bad as it ever was anymore.
: Make a new character (?). Make U-smash a real attack. Maybe not as ridiculously huge as it was in Brawl, but make the hitboxes substantial so that Zelda is very hard to approach from the air. Make Nair autocancel (which it might already do) and reduce it's landing lag considerably. Phantom should be storeable and Zelda should be able to act as soon as the Phantom is out. Phantom should have a hitbox for the whole duration of its animation, similar to Villager's Pushy Lloyd. I guess this would have to reduce the power on the final hit, though. If we're gonna stick to its original design, Din's Fire travel distance should be 150% longer, and its speed should be comparable to Din's Flare (the quick one I think). Reduce endlag and landing lag on lightning kicks slightly, and increase BKB and very slightly KBG on whiffed kicks. U-air's hitbox should go back to being massive as well.
: Make needles work as Fox's laser, losing the ability to make the opponent flinch at a distance longer than roughly two Sheiks. Also reduce their damage even further past this distance (0.6% or so per hit maybe). Bouncing Fish's hitbox size reduced for it not to be dumb, and it's hit on shield should make Sheik "recoil" more slowly and at half of the distance traveled. B-air sweetspot should have lower KBG. Fair should have some landing lag (a la Marth) so as to not make it nigh-infinitely string, specially on heavyweights. The grenade shouldn't really leave her helpless...
: Wizard's Foot should restore his second jump like in the old days, and maybe he should have super armor on most of his smashes (and u-tilt :'D). His Up-B should cover some more vertical distance as well, and Side-B could have armor on hits that deal less than 12%.
Omg I've been typing this up for like an hour and I'm not even 1/4 of the roster in. WHAT IS LIFE.
@
Lavani
since you're probably the only person interested, I'm only gonna tag you Spoilered because tl;dr
Note: Please mind that I'm mentioning these changes completely from a game design PoV. I don't claim to be a Smash expert, but I've noticed a lot of the movesets in the game don't really stick true to the archetype each character represents.
This only takes into consideration non-custom movesets.
: Unchanged. He's got a very healthy balance of speed and power and decent recovery, which is how Mario should have been from day 1 - the "standard.": Increase KBG on d-throw. Reduce Fair's sweetspot damage by 2%. Also increase fireball's endlag by some 3 or 4 frames. Luigi should suffer a bit more for his lack of mobility instead of having a good zoning tool.: Slightly reduce U-smash's KBG. Make D-tilt's knocback upwards instead of downwards (it gets randomly teched sometimes) and give it a weaker hitbox far out that has lower kb but a chance of tripping, which I think is more appropriate for Peach's playstyle than having a random grounded meteor.: Unchanged.: Not quite sure. If anything, Yoshi strikes me as being in an awkward spot of being very powerful but at the same time not as powerful. So far I'll say unchanged.: Reduce u-tilt and u-air sweetspot's BKB slightly (Luma only). Increase KBG on u-tilt sweetspot. Apart from the ridic early killpower on those moves, she's a very well designed and pretty balanced character IMO. People just struggle with her because it's really hard to remember you have two opponents instead of one.: He's the toughest of the Mario characters, because his design doesn't really make it clear what the purpose of his attacks are. He has potential to be a good juggler and has some good CQC moves, but the nature of his specials would suggest that he's a zoner/camper, and they don't give him particularly complimentary tools. I personally don't think he needs to camp, but if anything I'd say any change should be in how his projectiles work. The Cannon ball should be faster and able to be angled up or down, and it should keep its hitbox properties while bouncing, similar to Brawler's Shot Put. Alternatively, it could remain in the battlefield for a while so that it could be grabbed like an item as well. The power would have to be reduced, though. Mechakoopa also needs a lot less endlag, similar to Diddy's bananas, and maybe they could be "charged" to increase the distance at which it is shot, not unlike ROB's Gyro. In more minute changes, the hitboxes on his F-smash shouldn't have a blindspot, and in general I'd say the move needs a little more horizontal range. U-air should deal 1 or 2% more in damage, and u-tilt should come out a bit faster.: Unchaged. Solid aerial design imo.: Bucket should be able to get "cancelled" when successfully absorbing a projectile, similar to Ness's PSI Magnet. Other than that, I think some of his Brawl stuff should come back, like his F-smash not having a sweetspot and having a lingering hitbox. His turtle having the landing hitbox would help him wonders, IMO, since it was able to poke shields iirc. U-smash's hitbox should be way bigger too. Maybe not MARIO bigger, but considerably.: Fully charged aerial DK punch doesn't leave helpless. Other than that I am not entirely sure how to make DK much better. Maybe give his limbs invincibility on tilts and smashes, so that his attacks get the "Bowser" treatment of superarmor. He's never gonna stop being combo food, so at least he should be able to space better.: Reduce damage of most attacks by at least 1 or 2%. Give Fair some landing lag. If it's gonna have the same range as Marth's attacks, then it should receive the same treatment, making Diddy unable to spam the move defensively or offensively. Increase uair's BKB a bit and decrease it's KBG significantly. Also, tweak that hitbox not to be a ridiculous move that covers most of Diddy's everything. His U-smash should be weaker as well, if not one of the weakest in the game. With those changes I think Diddy goes back to being a speedy character that can combo a lot but that has to work harder for his kills.: Fix his grab's farthest hitbox so that the claw actually grabs. Remove D-air's spike so that the sweetspot becomes a powerful vertical finisher as it was before. Link's subpar recovery doesn't make it so d-air is a usable meteor, and it took away a wonderful killing option to throw into his mindgames. Other than that, Link is also a pretty well balanced character I think, specially in this iteration of Smash. Perhaps the Balanced Brawl treatment in which he could use his clawshot out of Up-B would be nice but his recovery isn't nearly as bad as it ever was anymore.: Make a new character (?). Make U-smash a real attack. Maybe not as ridiculously huge as it was in Brawl, but make the hitboxes substantial so that Zelda is very hard to approach from the air. Make Nair autocancel (which it might already do) and reduce it's landing lag considerably. Phantom should be storeable and Zelda should be able to act as soon as the Phantom is out. Phantom should have a hitbox for the whole duration of its animation, similar to Villager's Pushy Lloyd. I guess this would have to reduce the power on the final hit, though. If we're gonna stick to its original design, Din's Fire travel distance should be 150% longer, and its speed should be comparable to Din's Flare (the quick one I think). Reduce endlag and landing lag on lightning kicks slightly, and increase BKB and very slightly KBG on whiffed kicks. U-air's hitbox should go back to being massive as well.: Make needles work as Fox's laser, losing the ability to make the opponent flinch at a distance longer than roughly two Sheiks. Also reduce their damage even further past this distance (0.6% or so per hit maybe). Bouncing Fish's hitbox size reduced for it not to be dumb, and it's hit on shield should make Sheik "recoil" more slowly and at half of the distance traveled. B-air sweetspot should have lower KBG. Fair should have some landing lag (a la Marth) so as to not make it nigh-infinitely string, specially on heavyweights. The grenade shouldn't really leave her helpless...: Wizard's Foot should restore his second jump like in the old days, and maybe he should have super armor on most of his smashes (and u-tilt :'D). His Up-B should cover some more vertical distance as well, and Side-B could have armor on hits that deal less than 12%.Omg I've been typing this up for like an hour and I'm not even 1/4 of the roster in. WHAT IS LIFE.
Cenizas
The Zelda We Need, But Not the One We Deserve
Anyone up for some games?
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Since Meta Knight was mentioned, I find it kinda funny that he's pretty much a nerfed Kirby recolor since he's locked into pretty much just one ability while Kirby has everything and only needs to eat stuff in order to get powers of all kinds. Plus Meta Knight gets beaten up by Kirby on an almost regular basis.
Plus if Amazing Mirror is anything to go by, Kirby is probably better or at least just as good at using the Galaxia than Meta Knight himself despite that being the first time he ever touched it, lol.
Plus if Amazing Mirror is anything to go by, Kirby is probably better or at least just as good at using the Galaxia than Meta Knight himself despite that being the first time he ever touched it, lol.
Lorde
Let 'em talk
To celebrate Mewtwo's return to Smash in two days (!!!), I've been playing a ton of Ivysaur lol.
Holy ****, I need my frame 4 14% nair back. Bair is also frame 4 (I think), and has great range. I need Ivysaur back so badly.
Holy ****, I need my frame 4 14% nair back. Bair is also frame 4 (I think), and has great range. I need Ivysaur back so badly.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
OMG IVE BEEN CONSISTANTLY BEEN LANDING DAIR TO REST YES
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Cenizas
The Zelda We Need, But Not the One We Deserve
Kirby doesn't have a sick ride like the Halberd or a sexy accent though.
Lorde
Let 'em talk
How does this work? I've been trying to do this after seeing it on the Puff boards and I can't get it to work.
I'll play (wii U right?), just give me 5 minutes to get dressed. Add me up in the meantime!
Macchiato
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 19,659
you main puff now?
SpiralGalaxies
Smash Lord
Hello friends! How is everyone doing today?
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
Hahahah yeah I'm sorry drinks up @berserker.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I'm now picturing Kirby with Meta Knight's accent and it's hilarious.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
warionumbah2
Smash Master
The protagonist NEVER lose its a fact, if they do lose its only because they were unprepared for the fight. MK only went all out once against Kirby but even then its without intent to kill, he fights Kirby mostly to prepare him for tougher fights.
Like you play as MK in super star and fight the so called strongest warrior in the galaxy and beat him..
Going with Sakurai made Kirby games(the ones that matter) MK never went all out against Kirby because end of the day he's "ugh" a good guy(even edge Lord MK in Brawl saved Lucas and Red like he's batman).
Edit: there's waaaay too many good guys in Smash bros.
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Antonykun
Hero of Many Faces
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2014
- Messages
- 6,727
- 3DS FC
- 1049-0472-0051
Does Villager count as a good guy?
Sure :'Du@Fernosaur wanna play until ceniza comes back?
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 19,659
"We need more villains!!!"
Macchiato
Smash Hero
I'll host
warionumbah2
Smash Master
Animals:Does Villager count as a good guy?
Minding their own business:
Neutral:
and hopefully soon Bad Guys:
Good guys,fight for justice,love and friendship!!!: THE REST OF THE CAST!!
I'm not asking for evil dudes like Ganon but there's too many goody toe shoes in Smash, i can see why people want King.K.Fool.
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FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Well, Kirby can beat Galacta Knight as well so -shrug-
Also I love how you take issue with Meta Knight being a good guy even though there was never anything that implied otherwise. Even in the Revenge of Meta Knight he was still shown to be a nice guy even though he wanted to take over Dreamland for... Reasons.
Honestly Revenge of Meta Knight is such a big lipped alligator moment. Like, MK is trying to take over Dreamland for reasons and then gets beaten up by Kirby and then all is well and he never tried to do anything of that sort again because why the heck did he even bother trying to take over Dreamland in the first place? And why is it called Revenge of Meta Knight when Kirby (or anybody really) never really did do anything to him?
I guess they needed an excuse to make Meta Knight the villain of the story, even if it derails the character.
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Lavani
Indigo Destiny
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
- Messages
- 7,256
hmm
I'm not shielding enough.
Ever since I started using usmash more on Rosalina I've just been trying to beat out attacks (with a laggy af attack) instead of shielding them. It gets me punished more, it's usually a worse punish than what grab or shielddrop jab would get me, and it's only been making it harder to kill (I have people living to 180%+ so much and getting dumb ~70% rage kills on me)
I need to go back to my old habit of utilt antiair too, the disjoint is much better than usmash with less startup and less endlag (can actually punish airdodges after utilt, but they're safe after usmash)
Fair doesn't have a sweetspot and is his weakest aerial, did you mean bair? I don't think fireball nerfs are warranted if dthrow's combo potential is nerfed; the character has no approach and his slipperiness gives him a horrible time trying to punish even moderate strength attacks on his shield, giving him the one low-commitment projectile in the game to help him out in neutral seems fair.
I believe dtilt is designed with the intent of being techable to limit Peach's combo game; she has rather powerful aerials, including her fair which is a potent kill move. Dtilt having a ton of range, being fairly safe, and comboing into these things is likely something they didn't want to be 100% guaranteed but wanted to keep in as an option. Replacing the far hit with a trip could be interesting, but I'm not well-versed enough in the character to say if it'd be better or worse for her than the move's current function.
His ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, and uair all make his limbs/head invincible already lol
Are the uair nerfs implied?
Reducing nair's landing lag would make ff nair>FW a free kill combo at ~60% and would take a lot of risk out of the character's early kills without mitigating reward.
Fair has landing lag, the reason it gets away with all the dumb stuff it does is because it has a frame 11 autocancel (lol). The problem I see with balancing the move is, if it doesn't start strings it's going to be worthless because its damage is pathetic.
Armor on dsmash/fsmash/utilt could be fun; keep it off usmash though, that move only has 20 frames of endlag, has forward disjoint, and is safe on shield on top of its ridiculous damage and kill power. I'm really leery of superarmor on sideB, the typical answer to superarmor is grabs but you can't shieldgrab a command grab...if he needed a superarmor approach move I'd consider Wizard's Foot for it - from Sakurai's design viewpoint that'd likely be too abusable at casual levels of play though.
Everything else I either agree with, wouldn't object to, or don't know what I would do with the character myself anyway (see: Bowser Jr).
I'm not shielding enough.
Ever since I started using usmash more on Rosalina I've just been trying to beat out attacks (with a laggy af attack) instead of shielding them. It gets me punished more, it's usually a worse punish than what grab or shielddrop jab would get me, and it's only been making it harder to kill (I have people living to 180%+ so much and getting dumb ~70% rage kills on me)
I need to go back to my old habit of utilt antiair too, the disjoint is much better than usmash with less startup and less endlag (can actually punish airdodges after utilt, but they're safe after usmash)
This is a pretty interesting read. I've got some thoughts on some of your changes:I was thinking about what changes could be good for the roster to be more balanced in general, and for characters' movesets to be more faithful to their (apparent) intended design. I was gonna write this up last night but SLEEP, so here it goes now...
@
Spoilered because tl;dr
Note: Please mind that I'm mentioning these changes completely from a game design PoV. I don't claim to be a Smash expert, but I've noticed a lot of the movesets in the game don't really stick true to the archetype each character represents.
This only takes into consideration non-custom movesets.
Omg I've been typing this up for like an hour and I'm not even 1/4 of the roster in. WHAT IS LIFE.
Fair doesn't have a sweetspot and is his weakest aerial, did you mean bair? I don't think fireball nerfs are warranted if dthrow's combo potential is nerfed; the character has no approach and his slipperiness gives him a horrible time trying to punish even moderate strength attacks on his shield, giving him the one low-commitment projectile in the game to help him out in neutral seems fair.I believe dtilt is designed with the intent of being techable to limit Peach's combo game; she has rather powerful aerials, including her fair which is a potent kill move. Dtilt having a ton of range, being fairly safe, and comboing into these things is likely something they didn't want to be 100% guaranteed but wanted to keep in as an option. Replacing the far hit with a trip could be interesting, but I'm not well-versed enough in the character to say if it'd be better or worse for her than the move's current function.His ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, and uair all make his limbs/head invincible already lolAre the uair nerfs implied?Reducing nair's landing lag would make ff nair>FW a free kill combo at ~60% and would take a lot of risk out of the character's early kills without mitigating reward.Fair has landing lag, the reason it gets away with all the dumb stuff it does is because it has a frame 11 autocancel (lol). The problem I see with balancing the move is, if it doesn't start strings it's going to be worthless because its damage is pathetic.Armor on dsmash/fsmash/utilt could be fun; keep it off usmash though, that move only has 20 frames of endlag, has forward disjoint, and is safe on shield on top of its ridiculous damage and kill power. I'm really leery of superarmor on sideB, the typical answer to superarmor is grabs but you can't shieldgrab a command grab...if he needed a superarmor approach move I'd consider Wizard's Foot for it - from Sakurai's design viewpoint that'd likely be too abusable at casual levels of play though.Everything else I either agree with, wouldn't object to, or don't know what I would do with the character myself anyway (see: Bowser Jr).
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elusiveTranscendent
Smash Lord
No one cares but I've dropped Sheik
And now I'm only gonna use Robin for fun
I want to be able to excel with this character, I really do, but the slow movement, lack of setups, folds under pressure, etc.
I've picked up Gekkouga though
Pit, who I messed around with when I solely played 3DS is going to be used more
*Hugs, not noticing that I GET MY TONGUE SCARF ALL OVER YOU*
whoops..
Welcome to the frog army, Wolfie~ >:3
some additions made for my amusementAnimals:
Minding their own business:
Stretch those legs!:
Neutral:
reckless:
Bad Guys:
Good guys,fight for justice,love and friendship!!!: THE REST OF THE CAST!!
YOU WILL BE PURIFIED (with bad voice acting):
I'm not asking for evil dudes like Ganon but there's too many goody toe shoes in Smash, i can see why people want King.K.Fool.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
That's okay. Those Sing kills though, totally unexpected XD@
Cenizas
The Zelda We Need, But Not the One We Deserve
Sorry, too poor for a wii u. For now.