Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
............. why is anyone using Farore's OoS?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
~ Zelda Q & A / FAQs / Directory ~
- Thread starter RoyalBlood
- Start date
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
EDIT: You know what? Forget it, lol.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
MrEh
Smash Hero
The same reason why people use Zelda in the first place.
It's useless and funny. (although UpB OoS is actually decent)
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I don't understand why the Marth match up is so bad but the ROB match up is considered even. They're basically the same character except rob has projectiles and better recovery. I Feel as though Marth should be even.
Also I was wondering if someone could upload a vid or two of my Zelda so I can get it critiqued.
Also I was wondering if someone could upload a vid or two of my Zelda so I can get it critiqued.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Rob has a harder time killing Zelda, is far easier to LK, and has less priority for starters. He has ftilt and I guess dtilt to space us, but Marth has those and much more. Rob's recovery makes Dsmash kills harder to come by, too...
I'm more experienced vs. Rob than I am Marth though so I can't really compare the two. I just know that Rob really has nothing on him that Marth doesn't have, as far as critical points go.
I'm more experienced vs. Rob than I am Marth though so I can't really compare the two. I just know that Rob really has nothing on him that Marth doesn't have, as far as critical points go.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Excuse me . . . What?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Fundamentally speaking, they are the same for Zelda. They both outrange her on the ground, they both have aerial games that make hers pretty much a no-go, they both have effective moves against her OoS...
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
All joking aside, it can make a decent surprise manouever. Yes, in the majority of cases USmash and DSmash are better ooS options, but with up B, it makes your opponent think, 'WTF? Why did he do that?' and as they're thinking that you can Farore's straight down and end up i nthe same place for the second explosion.
Obviously this'll only work once or twice before they begin to catch on, mind you.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I'd have to disagree with marth kills and how he spaces. Marth has only two safe moves on shield dtilt and fair. The main downside of Marth game is his lack of safe kill moves and his lack of kill power in general. Not to say he can't kill you early because he can. However, move that will kill you at the lowest percentage which is a tipper fsmash and you really shouldn't get hit by that unless you've mad a mistake. The majority of marth moves have a lot of shield stun so that's where you need to take advantage of. Also need to remember that his fastest move is jab and Dancing blades which comes out frame four. So he's not that much faster than you. In those regards. So being able to punish after he hits your shield is a critical factor in the match up IMO. Also you should kill him sooner than he kills you. I'm not too sure if ROB is easier to hit with LK it seems about the same too me. Also ROBS ftilt is better than Marth's. I still don't see the reason why one match up is considered even while the other is considered a terrible match up. Especially when they're both virtually the same character.
They are basically the exact same character.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I didn't mean to word that as "Marth spaces you all day with ftilt", but they space you similarly.
Rob has to be treated exactly like how you would treat Marth, only Rob doesn't have the shopped game to limit Zelda. You have to shield his things as well, and really there's still ample time to punish a shielded move.
In my opinion, Rob's one of the easiest to kick. Honestly, he doesn't have any big protection like a sword to keep himself from getting kicked, and he's got the body size and length to make kicks simple. For the theorycraft factor, he's also big enough to be lightning kicked on a trip. I actually put that dtilt -> bair thing into practice against my friend that mains Rob, so I guess it could just be me and bias, but Marth's definitely harder for me to kick because they realize that fairing me will put themselves at a reasonable distance to be kicked most of the time.
Rob has to be treated exactly like how you would treat Marth, only Rob doesn't have the shopped game to limit Zelda. You have to shield his things as well, and really there's still ample time to punish a shielded move.
In my opinion, Rob's one of the easiest to kick. Honestly, he doesn't have any big protection like a sword to keep himself from getting kicked, and he's got the body size and length to make kicks simple. For the theorycraft factor, he's also big enough to be lightning kicked on a trip. I actually put that dtilt -> bair thing into practice against my friend that mains Rob, so I guess it could just be me and bias, but Marth's definitely harder for me to kick because they realize that fairing me will put themselves at a reasonable distance to be kicked most of the time.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
They may have similarities and all, but they're still not the same character.
I find that Rob is just so much more helpless in the air, it's really not that hard to keep him up there and his recovery doesn't make him any less floaty than he already is. Din's can actually pressure him during his up+b when trying to recover low and will usually force Rob to opt for high to try and counter camp with lasers/gyro, which means he'll still be above you.
I find that Rob is just so much more helpless in the air, it's really not that hard to keep him up there and his recovery doesn't make him any less floaty than he already is. Din's can actually pressure him during his up+b when trying to recover low and will usually force Rob to opt for high to try and counter camp with lasers/gyro, which means he'll still be above you.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Marth and ROB really aren't that similar, lol.
Come on, guys, step it up.
Come on, guys, step it up.
MrEh
Smash Hero
ROB vs Zelda is not even. It's like, 40-60.
I lol'ed. Hard.
Then you need to play better Marths.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I have a harder time thus far against good ROBS than marths. But that may change...
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Maybe but I don't go for the dtilr>bair. I'd rather dsmash especially Marth.
Rob can fair your Dins and keep it moving I used to think the same way. The both have blind spots underneath them.
They are really similar IDK what you mean.
That would hurt if you weren't the same guy who posted something bout up B OOS.
LoL@ play better Marths what Marths are you playing that has you knowing the match up so much better than me?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Please don't attempt to make me look incompetent. When I said UpB OoS is great, I was 100% serious.
Can someone decipher this sentence for me please?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
. . . That's half the cast
He's incredulous that you've ever played against a good marth with Zelda.
Still not even close.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Care to explain what makes them so much different?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
pretty much everything. I mean they are as different as any two characters in Brawl. I'm honsetly confused as to why you would consider them similar at all.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Marth and Rob are still faster in pretty much the same aspects that matter against Zelda.
Honestly, Marth is just better at it all, but you approach them the same way.
Honestly, Marth is just better at it all, but you approach them the same way.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Because they're the same character. DK is also similar to them.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I'm just gonna throw this out there because I just got back from a night out and doesn't give a ****.....
If you think Marth, ROB, and DK are the "same" or even similar characters, you're stupid and should quit Brawl immediately. Or play better Marths/ROBs/DKs.
Seriously. They're three completely different characters. Saying lolbutyouapproachthesame is kind of a horribly weak argument.
If you think Marth, ROB, and DK are the "same" or even similar characters, you're stupid and should quit Brawl immediately. Or play better Marths/ROBs/DKs.
Seriously. They're three completely different characters. Saying lolbutyouapproachthesame is kind of a horribly weak argument.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
especially considering Zelda approaches most things.
That's similar to comparing Metaknight to Link because zelda can't camp either of them. And they both have swords! They are like the same character I tell you!
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
DK's bair
Marth's fair
ROB's fair
DK's ftilt
Marth's ftilt
Rob's ftilt
DK's dtilt
ROB's dtilt
Marth's dtilt
DK's utilt
Marth's utilt
Rob's utilt
All extremely long ramge great spacing tools. The utilt can all juggle at low percentages. Dtilt locks against walls. Each of them are weak when they're above someone. All three are great at edge guarding. LoL@play better with out knowing who i've played or play this is a sick joke ROFL get a clue seriously.
@mr eh lol nice pic but that doesn't remove the fact that these 3 characters are similiar.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Except Link doesn't have the frame adv. against Zelda that MK does. By making that comparison you made it clear that you never really understood exactly why I said "lolbutyouapproachthesame." This is why it's nice to leave sarcasm out of discussions. It may help to note that I'm not talking about Zelda's lolapproach specifically though it does play a part - I'm talking about how you generally have to treat either character to win.
All I'm saying is that Marth and Rob have the ground speed and range combination against Zelda and they are gonna use those advantages against her. They are gonna space against her in fundamentally the same way. Believe it or not, fair-spamming Marth = easier Marth. All they both have to do is stand outside of her range and they can either 1) poke at her while she figures out a way to close in, or 2) wait for her to take an action and react to it, which they'll be able to because they don't need to be in dtilt range to deal with her.
Of course they aren't the same exact character. Nobody is saying (or at least I'm not saying) that Marth can shoot gyros and that Rob has Up B OoS with invincibility frames. They have enough similarities, especially in where they hold advantages against Zelda, that it doesn't really matter however. Biggest difference is aerial games but Rob's is still enough to deal with Zelda.
All I'm saying is that Marth and Rob have the ground speed and range combination against Zelda and they are gonna use those advantages against her. They are gonna space against her in fundamentally the same way. Believe it or not, fair-spamming Marth = easier Marth. All they both have to do is stand outside of her range and they can either 1) poke at her while she figures out a way to close in, or 2) wait for her to take an action and react to it, which they'll be able to because they don't need to be in dtilt range to deal with her.
Of course they aren't the same exact character. Nobody is saying (or at least I'm not saying) that Marth can shoot gyros and that Rob has Up B OoS with invincibility frames. They have enough similarities, especially in where they hold advantages against Zelda, that it doesn't really matter however. Biggest difference is aerial games but Rob's is still enough to deal with Zelda.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
They're three. Completely. Different. Characters.
Okay, they all have long-ranged ftilts and weak from underneath. So what? They're both faster than and outrange Zelda on the ground. SO WHAT? You just described more than ROB and Marth, lol. That's the story of her life.
They're different weights, different sizes, different in terms of the priority/disjoint of their moves because they have completely different movesets, different fall speeds, different recoveries, different damage outputs on their moves.
There may be some similarities (as you're bound to find between any two characters), but going so far as to say that you play each MU the same shows a real lack of inexperience on your part. No two MUs are the same, because there are lots of little details that change how you have to play each one. I guarantee that if you use a winning strategy vs. a pro Marth, then go and play a pro DK (lol if they exist), you will have to change your gameplay.
Marth's options =/= DK's options, and Marth's general attributes =/= DK's, so if you go into the DK MU trying to play it like Marth, you're going to lose at high levels of play, I promise you. That goes for any two MUs.... every character is unique, and while you can take bits and pieces from one MU to help with another, they're never THAT similar to call them "the same character."
If they were the same character, they'd both be called Marth. If they were the same character, they'd both be occupying the same spot on the character select screen.
I say "Play better Marths/ROBs/DKs" because the mindset you guys have is way too general to be applied at high levels of play. When you get past mid-level Smash, these sorts of generalizations don't cut it at all, and the vast number of differences between characters become more important as you understand MUs at a deeper level.
But whatever. This is such a ridiculous argument, I'm kind of upset that I just wasted time talking about it. You guys are so right, Marth and ROB are like clones.
Okay, they all have long-ranged ftilts and weak from underneath. So what? They're both faster than and outrange Zelda on the ground. SO WHAT? You just described more than ROB and Marth, lol. That's the story of her life.
They're different weights, different sizes, different in terms of the priority/disjoint of their moves because they have completely different movesets, different fall speeds, different recoveries, different damage outputs on their moves.
There may be some similarities (as you're bound to find between any two characters), but going so far as to say that you play each MU the same shows a real lack of inexperience on your part. No two MUs are the same, because there are lots of little details that change how you have to play each one. I guarantee that if you use a winning strategy vs. a pro Marth, then go and play a pro DK (lol if they exist), you will have to change your gameplay.
Marth's options =/= DK's options, and Marth's general attributes =/= DK's, so if you go into the DK MU trying to play it like Marth, you're going to lose at high levels of play, I promise you. That goes for any two MUs.... every character is unique, and while you can take bits and pieces from one MU to help with another, they're never THAT similar to call them "the same character."
If they were the same character, they'd both be called Marth. If they were the same character, they'd both be occupying the same spot on the character select screen.
I say "Play better Marths/ROBs/DKs" because the mindset you guys have is way too general to be applied at high levels of play. When you get past mid-level Smash, these sorts of generalizations don't cut it at all, and the vast number of differences between characters become more important as you understand MUs at a deeper level.
But whatever. This is such a ridiculous argument, I'm kind of upset that I just wasted time talking about it. You guys are so right, Marth and ROB are like clones.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Short form of whatever I was gonna say:
- never said only Marth and Rob have those advantages against Zelda. Did say that those two have those advantages. This is the most important point to keep in mind.
- I don't think I've even implied that they're 100% the same, or even 90%. Just that, yes, even at "high levels of Smash", Zelda has to deal with the range and speed issues Marth and Rob presented, and unless I'm totally blind here, there's a fair bit of overlap in the matchups, moreso than you'd find in Marth vs. Zelda and ICs vs. Zelda. Relatively speaking, Marth and Rob hold similar advantages against Zelda. Range and speed are most of the reason why they beat her.
- Unless you were talking to AL, I didn't say I played each matchup the same. In fact, every claim you've made that's directed towards me and includes "they're not the same" doesn't mean anything to me because I'm not claiming that they're the same exact character, though I guess "fundamentally the same" is gonna come across as that. Not that I expected anyone to seriously believe that I never noticed they are located in two spots on the character selection screen.
- Finally, the "so what"s in your post have been answered already: They both have those advantages on Zelda so you can't say you lose to one and not the other, as those advantages are big.
- never said only Marth and Rob have those advantages against Zelda. Did say that those two have those advantages. This is the most important point to keep in mind.
- I don't think I've even implied that they're 100% the same, or even 90%. Just that, yes, even at "high levels of Smash", Zelda has to deal with the range and speed issues Marth and Rob presented, and unless I'm totally blind here, there's a fair bit of overlap in the matchups, moreso than you'd find in Marth vs. Zelda and ICs vs. Zelda. Relatively speaking, Marth and Rob hold similar advantages against Zelda. Range and speed are most of the reason why they beat her.
- Unless you were talking to AL, I didn't say I played each matchup the same. In fact, every claim you've made that's directed towards me and includes "they're not the same" doesn't mean anything to me because I'm not claiming that they're the same exact character, though I guess "fundamentally the same" is gonna come across as that. Not that I expected anyone to seriously believe that I never noticed they are located in two spots on the character selection screen.
- Finally, the "so what"s in your post have been answered already: They both have those advantages on Zelda so you can't say you lose to one and not the other, as those advantages are big.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'm upset that any more than this even needs to be said on the issue.
Are Marth and ROB similar? sure... in the sense that they are both characters in Smash. There are some similarieites that ALL characters have, but they have more differences than similarities, and there are characters more similar to either of them than the other is.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
You can't say characters are the same based only on few of their moves, similar playstyles or just part of their attributes. Otherwise I could say that every character with projectile is very similar because they can attack from afar and that Luigi = Mario because their earials resemble each other.
That's the only thing I'm going to say about this. Why? Because we're coming to the point where nobody actually listen to anything others say or understand it completely wrong thus making any kind of commentary useless and any reasoning futile.
As far as I can see, both sides of the argument are right now saying the exact same thing (not sure about AL though): Marth and Rob have some things in similar. These similarities give them the same advantages and disadvantages versus Zelda. However, they also have some things that are different and these differences give them different advantages and disadvantages against her. So, when all's put together: they're partly similar and partly different so they also need to be fought just as much similarly than differently.
If that's not what you all are saying I'm sorry for misunderstanding. However, with the way this argument is going right now there's no chance of it convincing anyone about anything.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
^ Third paragraph is exactly what I've been saying the whole time, though I emphasized the similarities because I think everyone here has enough intelligence to realize that Rob shoots lasers and Marth does not.
Thank you for putting it out there without "taking a side."
Thank you for putting it out there without "taking a side."
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'd like to point out that THIS is the reason the "debate" started. So, if you were arguing any point that wasn't in this post, you may have been right, you may have been wrong, but, ultimately, you were being useless by debating something resembling, but not actually being the actual point.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Note that the discussion didn't remain static on that point and actually addressed multiple points and moved on - if it didn't move on nobody would have said anything else.
Stop making useless posts that attempt to claim others as being useless. Just because you were hung on that point doesn't mean the rest of us were. /hypocrite
Stop making useless posts that attempt to claim others as being useless. Just because you were hung on that point doesn't mean the rest of us were. /hypocrite
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
don't be hung on the point if you don't want to be. But if someone says "I believe 'A'" and they are told that "A" is wrong, and you start an argument about point "B," all it does is stretch on this meaningless argument for pages that doesn't help anyone.
It would be like if AL came in here saying how oranges should be treated exactly like apples because they taste exactly the same. So if you like one, you should like the other. And then 2 or 3 people tell him he's insane and you come in saying "Well, he has a point, they ARE both fruit." What the hell does that matter and how does it help? It doesn't. It's arguing for the sake of argument over something about which nobody ever wanted to argue.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
"Marth and rob are the same right"
"no"
"well they do have some overlap in how you deal with them"
"they're different characters"
"yeah but they still have enough similarities between them"
You: That wasn't the main point you were being useless.
Pretty sure the main point was done and over with because obviously every character isn't exactly the same, and then it went on to something else. If it didn't go on to anything else there wouldn't be a discussion up there. If nobody wanted to argue it nobody would have said whatever they said in such a manner that it would just beg for an argumentative response.
Your analogy sucks because I never agreed with the characters being one in the same, only that there was some overlap between them (read: "well, they ARE characters" was never said), but once again just like with the MK/Link comparison you aren't grasping it. Unsurprisingly.
"no"
"well they do have some overlap in how you deal with them"
"they're different characters"
"yeah but they still have enough similarities between them"
You: That wasn't the main point you were being useless.
Pretty sure the main point was done and over with because obviously every character isn't exactly the same, and then it went on to something else. If it didn't go on to anything else there wouldn't be a discussion up there. If nobody wanted to argue it nobody would have said whatever they said in such a manner that it would just beg for an argumentative response.
Your analogy sucks because I never agreed with the characters being one in the same, only that there was some overlap between them (read: "well, they ARE characters" was never said), but once again just like with the MK/Link comparison you aren't grasping it. Unsurprisingly.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
I fail to see how does this^, all of it fits into something one would call a question.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Responses in Quotes.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I'm pretty sure everyone would appreciate if we just let this die.
*waves white flag*
I don't really care enough to keep arguing against a brick wall. Let's just say we agree to disagree.
*waves white flag*
I don't really care enough to keep arguing against a brick wall. Let's just say we agree to disagree.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I wouldn't say I'm a brick wall.