Zelda MU ratios

[Dark.Pch]

Let's see. if I was in this spot right now.......

First I need to know what frames her Nair comes out in. Peach Fair comes out in 15. 16 at most (I think its 16 when Peach spaces the move) If she moves in with the fiar after the turnip, I think you can clap the turnip and her before her Fair comes out. The move may have range, But it is not that quick. You can used the speed of her fair to your advantage. So I would try this.

If She pulls retreating fairs with the turnip tosses (Spacing game Peach is playing here, remember this) Z-grab the turnip, But don't go into her Fair. Then try to use the turnip against her in some way. Now Zelda has a projectile, F-B and a reflecter. Your defense has just increased a lil. And Peach would be more on the defense now cause you have a turnip and she does not wanna get hit. While Zelda is not good at approaching, the turnip gives you a few options to do so.

If She turips and fairs while moving in, I would try to Z grab it then pull away. I would let her swing, give a good amount of space so she can't follow up with Jab and try some options to hit her with the turnip. This all depends on who reacts first from this and how.

 

[KayLo!]

EDIT: Forget it, lol. I have a feeling I might've misread, but I'm not sure, and I don't feel like getting into it. (That's twice in one day, ****.)

 

[Dark.Pch]

Thats why I said if she moves in with the fair. If not then Just don't test it. Z-grab the turnip. Take it has her giving you a projectile. Cause she tosses it and spaces the move. You don't have to go into it. So for this just do what I said in the last Paragraph of my post.

And Don't think range is always everything. There is always a weakspot to everything. Fair has range. Weak spot to that is it is not quick. In some cases, Nair can help break her fair cause it is faster. But if she is spacing the move, just leave it alone. Don't test it. Peach will just be swinging at air while you look at her like if she is ********.

 

[KayLo!]

I edited. I'm just gonna read and nod. x.x

 

[Dark.Pch]

Oh

Well I'm sorry if I come off strong or anything. Just trying to help you guys out in this match up.

 

[Veggie123]

Usmash is probably one of the moves Peach wants Zelda to use A LOT, thanks to all the lag it has. It's very good to use out of shield against dair, but a Peach that knows the MU well will probably dair after baiting a usmash, not the other way around.

I myself like to usmash Peach when she has a fresh stock/when she's ready to get KO'd.

 

[KayLo!]

@DPch: It's all good. I disagree on a few points, but I'm trying to not debate here (as in on this character board) anymore. Makes people cry.

Anyways, I think the MU could push 35:65. Seems a bit extreme, but a campy, defensive Peach really is extremely hard to win against. Might be closer to 40:60, who knows, 5 points don't matter -- long story short, it's a really hard but not impossible MU.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well I am no Zelda main or expert. So I am not saying these things as facts. These are things I would try to do to makes things less stressful. I'm just thinking of stuff and seeing if they would work/help.

And this is you and me talking, if you disagree with what I have to say, then go ahead. The others don't have to get into it with you on this, again I am just throwing out ideas and things I would try to do if I was in that spot.

 

[MrEh]

Peach vs Zelda is no where near impossible.

That being said, it's a load of poo.

 

[GodAtHand]

Peach vs Zelda is no where near impossible.

That being said, it's a load of poo.

One of MrEh's little pearls of wisdom.

On that note. A mediocre Peach that knows the matchup > A great Peach who doesn't know the matchup. It is just one of those things where experience will make the biggest difference IMO.

 

[Darkmusician]

Knowing vs Zelda hurts the Zelda for sure.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Peach vs Zelda is no where near impossible.

That being said, it's a load of poo.

Interesting paraphrase there...


Also, the fact that well-spaced Dairs can outdo USmash doesn't mean that USmash is bad. If you can get Peach above you without her float, she's very easy to USmash juggle. It catches her out of her air dodge, and her combination of floatiness and mediocre air speed means she's easy to follow. Dair also can't beat USmash from directly above, and Peach really needs her float intact to reliably get Dair to beat USmash. She has basically no other options to defend herself. It's all down to how well you can predict her.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Interesting paraphrase there...


Also, the fact that well-spaced Dairs can outdo USmash doesn't mean that USmash is bad. If you can get Peach above you without her float, she's very easy to USmash juggle. It catches her out of her air dodge, and her combination of floatiness and mediocre air speed means she's easy to follow. Dair also can't beat USmash from directly above, and Peach really needs her float intact to reliably get Dair to beat USmash. She has basically no other options to defend herself. It's all down to how well you can predict her.

i don't think the float is that crucial in avoiding an Usmash, the second jump can do that as well. i think the Peach should just try to go away from Zelda or offstage when getting back down and go for the ledge, then no Usmash threat.

 

[PK-ow!]

How to beat Marth as Zelda:


Roll a lot, especially whenever he gets tricky for his tippers. Counter his counter-rolling strategy with spot dodging.


If Marth ever jumps, do an instant Side-B.


Abuse NAir like cheap hallucinogenic drugs. Marth ****ing hates it and it sets up gimps if you control the knockback properly at the edge.


Every so often, throw out an Fsmash. The worst he can do is Fsmash you. You need the reflexes to act quickly if you traded.


Play an attrition game; do *not* chase him. Ever. If you hit, go back to the ground and keep trying to counter his spacing. If he hits you, get out of his combo, don't even try to get a reversal UNLESS he jumps into a Lightning Kick.
At a certain point, your **** will be lethal; he can only use aerials or tipped smashes.


If you go offstage you die. To edgeguard, just punish his recovery carry-over from Dolphin Slash. Do what you have to to make him recover low.



Don't use Nayru's Love.

Learn to use Farore's Wind to stop juggles. Don't do anything else with it.

Mix up dash grab and dash attack when Marth gets antsy.

Only use your other normals for punishing. Save Dsmash as much as possible. Don't bother saving Usmash.

Don't use utilt.




And there you have it.

Now get out there and prove this isn't 35:65.

 

[KayLo!]

Every so often, throw out an Fsmash. The worst he can do is Fsmash you.

Wait, wait.

Did you just say "the worst he can do is fsmash you"???

That's pretty freakin bad, especially since he'll likely be at tipper range if you're trying to fsmash him (+ the fact that Marths like to stay at ~tipper range for zoning purposes). @.@

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Okay... I think that this should've gone to the actual MU discussion. Anyway, here's what I don't agree with:

Roll a lot, especially whenever he gets tricky for his tippers. Counter his counter-rolling strategy with spot dodging.

Rolling is easy to read and punish if used much, especially for someone with aerial approach as good as Marth's.

If Marth ever jumps, do an instant Side-B.

If he's close to Zelda he'll hit her with his Fair and also negate Din in the process. If he's far he can airdodge or outpriorize with his aerial and gets free chance to better his spacing.

Abuse NAir like cheap hallucinogenic drugs. Marth ****ing hates it and it sets up gimps if you control the knockback properly at the edge.

He still outranges Nair so don't try to actually beat his attacks with it. It's good for punishing misspaced ones though.

Every so often, throw out an Fsmash. The worst he can do is Fsmash you. You need the reflexes to act quickly if you traded.

Trading Fsmashes with Marth is not something Zelda would want to do. He'll take 1% of damage and she'll take something around 15-20 with an added chance of being KO'd by a tipper. You do the math.

Learn to use Farore's Wind to stop juggles. Don't do anything else with it.

Farore's wind doesn't stop any juggle, it's too slow and easy to punish for that. It's a great way to get into air to be juggled again though.

However, it can be used to surprise Marth who's too eagerly and inpatiently trying to get Fairs in when Zelda's coming from above.

 

[KayLo!]

Rolling is easy to read and punish if used much, especially for someone with aerial approach as good as Marth's.

Yeah, I was gonna comment on this as well. Marth has a little thing called "Dancing Blade." x.x

When you (PK-ow!) say "Counter his counter-rolling strategy with spot dodging," you're just begging to get DB'd.

 

[PK-ow!]

Okay... I think that this should've gone to the actual MU discussion. Anyway, here's what I don't agree with:



Rolling is easy to read and punish if used much, especially for someone with aerial approach as good as Marth's.

Try it.

If he's close to Zelda he'll hit her with his Fair and also negate Din in the process. If he's far he can airdodge or outpriorize with his aerial and gets free chance to better his spacing.

Sorry, I meant when he jumps close. "instant side-B" is "short range Din's Fire".

Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his FAir blocks Din's Fire? 'cause I haven't seen it. Either my opponents aren't timing it, or it's not possible.


If he starts using DB's and Dolphin Slashes, he's playing a game that gives you openings. And the MU discussion to here says that's what Zelda wants.




Anyway, a Marth that *always* goes for tipper range is easy to beat.

I'll put it in four words:

Aim for his hand.

 

[KayLo!]

Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his FAir blocks Din's Fire? 'cause I haven't seen it. Either my opponents aren't timing it, or it's not possible.

It does. Short-range Din's has balls priority.... and Marth's fair has good priority/disjoint. It'll cut right through Din's.

Anyways, I disagree with a lot of your strategies for this MU, but apparently it works for you, lol.

 

[-Mars-]

PK-ow must be Godly with Zelda becaue I haven't had much success against Marth. The only time I beat Marth's with Zelda is if they have no matchup experience whatsoever.

 

[KayLo!]

That's because it's a sucky MU, lol. I hate Marth.... none of my characters do well vs. him, although at least Pika can keep up with him in terms of speed -- it's just spacing that's the problem.

Practice predicting + perfect shielding fairs/DB. Seriously, it'll make your life so much easier when you have to approach (which'll inevitably happen in most matches).

EDIT: That wasn't necessarily @you, Mars, just thinking/advising out loud. =X

 

[-Mars-]

lol it's all good

 

[MrEh]

Roll a lot, especially whenever he gets tricky for his tippers. Counter his counter-rolling strategy with spot dodging.

Dancing Blade will eat this for breakfast.

If Marth ever jumps, do an instant Side-B.

Prepare to get hit by an Fair.

Abuse NAir like cheap hallucinogenic drugs. Marth ****ing hates it and it sets up gimps if you control the knockback properly at the edge.

No. Marth's air game will destroy Nairs.

Every so often, throw out an Fsmash. The worst he can do is Fsmash you. You need the reflexes to act quickly if you traded.

If you're throwing out attacks at random with no point, then you're probably not a good player. (or you're sandbagging)

To edgeguard, just punish his recovery carry-over from Dolphin Slash

....

You can't punish a Marth out of his Dolphin Slash if he sweetspots the ledge. Trying to do that is asking to get hit by it. It's a freaking DP, it has invincibility. If the Marth is not sweetspotting the ledge, then the Marth is terrible.

Learn to use Farore's Wind to stop juggles.

No. You'll just be hit again by another aerial. Using Farore's Wind to reset the situation does not work against a competent player. Marth will hit you in the half second startup.

Don't do anything else with it.

Don't recover with UpB. Got it.

And there you have it.

I wish. That would have been it[/ if you knew what you were talking about.

 

[PK-ow!]

Do you know what Recovery Carry-Over is, MrEh?


Marths suck at the ledge. They discuss this as one of their great fears. And that's aside from the RCO.

If you're throwing out attacks at random with no point, then you're probably not a good player. (or you're sandbagging)

The point is to hit him.

So how are you doing with the Marth matchup?

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

lol I'm lucky I picked up DK, otherwise I'd have a terrible time with Marths. What's funny is both sides think the other has a slight adv. but it's pretty even, so if you don't like top tiers so much you might wanna give DK a try.

 

[-Mars-]

DK actually is a pretty good Zelda secondary.

You got Marth, MK, Oli, G&W, Snake, Lucario, all covered.

 

[Kataefi]

I sense an imminent storm brewing in these vast lands!

I find din's really meh against Marth and don't really touch the move unless he's way offstage somewhere.

You could always try powershielding the fairs.

 

[MrEh]

Do you know what Recovery Carry-Over is, MrEh?

Yes I do. And Marth just does an aerial and the lag is gone.

Marths suck at the ledge.

You know who sucks more at the ledge? Zelda. You know who's more exploitable on the ledge? Zelda.

The point is to hit him.

And if you're throwing out random moves, you are not thinking. If you were thinking, you can hit your opponent regardless. Throwing out random moves is a terrible piece of advice to give anyone. Even if you're trying to "trick" your opponent, you don't do that by throwing out random moves. Mixups are not random moves.

So how are you doing with the Marth matchup?

Simple. I win.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

You could always try powershielding the fairs.

And practically everything else too. If both Zelda and Marth are playing the range game it's pretty much the best and most secure tactic to powershield and punish. His grab range is too short to punish from far away and Fsmash's multiple hitboxes make it harder for him to use the same tactic.

Then again, it requires excellent powershielding skills and good eye for noticing the openings to truly work.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Marth ***** Zelda so much. I do that matchup a lot. Fair/Dtilt/DB punishment/marth's juggling is just too much for zelda :/. Btw u can counter marth's fair by powershielding it then OoS dash attack ASAP. U can also angle ftilt up but its hard to time it.

 

[KayLo!]

Hyphen usmash after perfect shielding fair also works if you're going for the kill. Otherwise, yeah, dash attack or ftilt are better since they won't stale your KO moves.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yes I do. And Marth just does an aerial and the lag is gone.

That's not quite true. It cancels some of the lag, but not all of it. Your aerial landing lag will be larger than normal.

 

[MrEh]

That's not quite true. It cancels some of the lag, but not all of it. Your aerial landing lag will be larger than normal.

It's no where near enough to be "Marth's worst fear."

That's rediculous.

 

[-Mars-]

I would imagine that at higher levels of play it could make quite a big difference.

 

[GodAtHand]

I haven't a clue on what Recovery Carry over is... So someone should explain it to me. please?

 

[mountain_tiger]

I haven't a clue on what Recovery Carry over is... So someone should explain it to me. please?

You know how if you land while in a helpless state, you suffer noticeable landing lag?

Well, with certain characters, if you grab the ledge while falling helplessly, the lag is 'saved', and the next time you land you suffer that lag rather than the normal landing lag.

 

[MrEh]

I would imagine that at higher levels of play it could make quite a big difference.

But not when you're Zelda.

I haven't a clue on what Recovery Carry over is... So someone should explain it to me. please?

When Marth sweetspots the ledge with his UpB, the next time he lands on the ground, he gets this bizarre lag. It's the same lag when you do your UpB and you land on the stage. It's about 10 frames. The lag can be reduced by doing an aerial or something similar.

Remember that Zelda does not have this lag, and yet she still gets massive lag after using her upB. If anyone has exploitable lag, it's Zelda. (and Ganon)

 

[GodAtHand]

Is it Marth specefic or does it happen to other characters as well?

 

[MrEh]

Is it Marth specefic or does it happen to other characters as well?

It's not Marth specific, so it happens to a few other characters as well. iirc, Mario was one of them.

I can't find the thread that listed all the characters though. :/

 

[GodAtHand]

I looked for one too :/