Zelda Franchise Discussion

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy would've probably been in Melee, f he was ever seriously considered I'd think.

See how bad that argument is?

Well, Diddy might've had troubles getting in at the exact time of Melee's development due to the Rare buyout. Ok, Donkey Kong made it in of coarse, and so did Dixie and K.Rool trophies, DKC based stages, and other stuff as Cranky on the background and the Barrel Cannon, but they might've been hesistant on putting in a full Rare-created character in as a playable character.

And eventually he made it in Brawl anyway. Tingle was definitely most popular in the pre-Brawl days. And he got the most attention cause of his own game and stuff. Am not expecting him yet. Maybe next game though.

 

[FalKoopa]

And eventually he made it in Brawl anyway. Tingle was definitely most popular in the pre-Brawl days.

Lol, Tingle was hardly popular pre-Brawl, especially how he was purposefully excluded from Twilight Princess.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Oh, there's also that yeah of coarse. Speaking of, I think the series might go for a more dark theme like in Twilight Princess again for Zelda Wii U.

 

[TheCreator]

Zelda Wii u so far is confirmed to be using an art style we haven't seen yet. And to be taking notes from Skyrim as far as the open world goes....****. YES.
Big ass open world yes yes yes.
But no, I think Tingle is the only sensible addition if we get another LoZ rep.

 

[cephalopod17]

Tingle or Toon Zelda/Tetra are logical and likely reps. I do not think Toon Link is going anywhere. Toon Zelda might be a clone, but not Tetra. Pirate based moves would be awesome.

 

[TheCreator]

Well Tetra was never planned...toon sheik was. I think it's been said before to all who thought that was tetra, but toon sheik was almost certainly toon sheik. if it was Tetra, it would probably say so. No other data codes are that bleak besides Olimar, and his is "Pikmin" which is still pretty obvious

 

[Diddy Kong]

Roy is totally called Emblem though.

Toon Sheik actually excisting is the dumbest thing ever.

 

[Frostwraith]

Toon Sheik actually excisting is the most awesome thing ever.

Fix'd it for ya.

Toon Sheik could actually be a codename for Tetra though...

 

[Deleted member]

Unlikely, since Brawl really doesn't use deceptive codenames for files. (The only case being "pra_mai", who people still don't know who that's supposed to be).

Melee did, but for very few characters. The most notable example, Roy being "Emblem", is most likely referencing the fact that Sakurai initially wasn't sure which Fire Emblem character he was going to add as Marth's clone. Just that he was going to add one.

Given that Smash uses an overall universal Link and Zelda, and Sakurai treats Toon Link as just another version of Link not unlike Dr. Mario was to Mario, Sakurai creating a "Toon" version Sheik to fit with the "Toon" version of Zelda is the most plausible scenario.

 

[cephalopod17]

Toon Sheik dose not exsit in any canon. The Twilight Sheik was un-used concept art for Shiek in Twillight Princess,but I do not know of any concept art for Tetra looking like or being Toon Sheik. (I am looking through Hyrule Historia under The Wind Waker concept art) Like said before Sakurai could just make a "Toon" Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

That "unused concept art" was specifically made for Smash.

EDIT: On another note, I just saw that there was to be a Tingle Train in Spirit Tracks, and it looks really frigging creepy.

It's not a Tingle-themed train; it's a train in the shape of Tingle. Ugh...

 

[Spire]

That "unused concept art" was specifically made for Smash.

That's bull****. It was designed for Twilight Princess and is featured in Hyrule Historia as part of its development. Miyamoto and Aonuma wouldn't have included it had it not truly been made for Zelda originally. It can be assumed that Zelda's hooded disguise took the place of the TP Sheik design considering it, too, bore a Sheikah Eye upon it.

 

[CalumG]

Unrelated, but can you imagine if the entire Smash fanbase got completely screwed with and the potential Zelda newcomer spot went to... not Impa, not Tingle, not Ghirahim, Zant, Midna or Classic Link, but a Phantom? As in, the Phantoms from Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks? There are playable Phantoms in both games after all, far more than can be said for many things in Zelda.

Sakurai: *Laughs*

 

[Deleted member]

That's bull****. It was designed for Twilight Princess and is featured in Hyrule Historia as part of its development. Miyamoto and Aonuma wouldn't have included it had it not truly been made for Zelda originally. It can be assumed that Zelda's hooded disguise took the place of the TP Sheik design considering it, too, bore a Sheikah Eye upon it.

Funny how you conveniently skip over how Hyrule Historia SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS that it was designed for use in Brawl.

You should really do your research before calling out something as bull****.

 

[Spire]

Funny how you conveniently skip over how Hyrule Historia SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS that it was designed for use in Brawl.

You should really do your research before calling out something as bull****.

Hey, I stand corrected for the time being. I did not read that specific blurb in the book—though it irks me because it clashes with previous knowledge. I'm curious why Sakurai said [upon announcing Sheik for Brawl] that it was an unused design for Twilight Princess. I will quote him for good measure:

Sheik doesn’t appear in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but we based her model on a design that was drafted up during the development of that game.

I emphasize the word that. This is very different from Hyrule Historia's blurb on the matter:

The pictures at the bottom right represent what Zelda from Twilight Princess would look like if she transformed into Sheik. They were drawn for Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

It was not until the English version of Hyrule Historia debuted that people changed their perceptions of the TP Sheik design's origins. It very well could be a translation error, but I'm not going to try and prove that as I can't read Japanese. I do recall a translation discrepancy about Old Man Impa (the unused male design for Impaz). I don't recall the specifics, but there was an article on one of the Zelda sites about it.

As far as I'm concerned, and it's not because I want to win this debate, these two official statements about the matter conflict entirely. This is an english translation of Sakurai's words and an english translation of Aonuma/Miyamoto's words. I'd like to know the truth behind these designs because right now, I find no reason to believe either statement. They are equally contradictory and I find neither hold precedence over the other.

 

[Groose]

Unrelated, but can you imagine if the entire Smash fanbase got completely screwed with and the potential Zelda newcomer spot went to... not Impa, not Tingle, not Ghirahim, Zant, Midna or Classic Link, but a Phantom? As in, the Phantoms from Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks? There are playable Phantoms in both games after all, far more than can be said for many things in Zelda.

Sakurai: *Laughs*

That would be... disappointing. I also must confess it isn't outside of the realm of possibility.

EDIT: On another note, I just saw that there was to be a Tingle Train in Spirit Tracks, and it looks really frigging creepy.

It's not a Tingle-themed train; it's a train in the shape of Tingle. Ugh...

Oh, you mean the one in this picture? In my opinion, it does kind of blend in with the rest of the trains.

Toon Sheik could actually be a codename for Tetra though...

Eh... I'm not so sure. Why would they bother with a codename?

 

[NickerBocker]

Oh god. Talk about a **** train...

The phantoms arent out of the realm of possibility. Theyve been pretty prominant in the games. I mean, spirit tracks was all about phantoms, OoT had phantom ganon and poes (aactually, poes might be cool... hmmm...) WW had the puppet master, which is kind of like a phantom. Hell even SS had the one boss with 6 arms (cant recall his name) which seemed pretty "phantomish"

I dont support the phantom idea at all btw, I would much rather see a masked link (like from MM) represent supporting races of dekus, zoras and gorons

 

[Hong]

They may use something from Zelda Wii U HD (no real title yet), which has been kept from the public eye thus far. Would be kind of odd to have them next to Link, but everyone is kind of graphically modified in this entry to be closer to primary shades and colours, anyways. Should be noted that they have been working on this new HD LoZ since before the Wii U was even released, so the art assets are definitely there. If they don't show another LoZ character until 2014, it woudn't be a stretch.

 

[Spire]

Oh god. Talk about a **** train...

The phantoms arent out of the realm of possibility. Theyve been pretty prominant in the games. I mean, spirit tracks was all about phantoms, OoT had phantom ganon and poes (aactually, poes might be cool... hmmm...) WW had the puppet master, which is kind of like a phantom. Hell even SS had the one boss with 6 arms (cant recall his name) which seemed pretty "phantomish"

I dont support the phantom idea at all btw, I would much rather see a masked link (like from MM) represent supporting races of dekus, zoras and gorons

Try not to loosely throw around "Phantom" when describing other entities. I understand why you'd assume Koloktos to be a phantom, considering it is a suit of armor inhabited by a living darkness, much akin with the Phantoms found in PH and ST. Refer to this page of Zeldawiki for a list of all things phantasmal in the series: http://zeldawiki.org/Phantom_(disambiguation)

Phantoms are a type of ghost, so you are correct in affiliating them with poes, though, The Legend of Zelda has a particular address for phantoms. They are often dopplegangers, or cast-offs, rather than the departed. Bellum is the most threatening of phantoms within the series.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, I stand corrected for the time being. I did not read that specific blurb in the book—though it irks me because it clashes with previous knowledge. I'm curious why Sakurai said [upon announcing Sheik for Brawl] that it was an unused design for Twilight Princess. I will quote him for good measure:

I emphasize the word that. This is very different from Hyrule Historia's blurb on the matter:


It was not until the English version of Hyrule Historia debuted that people changed their perceptions of the TP Sheik design's origins. It very well could be a translation error, but I'm not going to try and prove that as I can't read Japanese. I do recall a translation discrepancy about Old Man Impa (the unused male design for Impaz). I don't recall the specifics, but there was an article on one of the Zelda sites about it.

As far as I'm concerned, and it's not because I want to win this debate, these two official statements about the matter conflict entirely. This is an english translation of Sakurai's words and an english translation of Aonuma/Miyamoto's words. I'd like to know the truth behind these designs because right now, I find no reason to believe either statement. They are equally contradictory and I find neither hold precedence over the other.

Except that it is entirely possible for the design to be drafted during TP's development while still being made specifically for Brawl. Neither statement contradicts the other.
Remember that when Brawl was starting development, TP was being worked on at the same time.

 

[TheCreator]

I hope Tingle appears in Zelda Wii U. Playable in some way. lol

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Oh, you mean the one in this picture? In my opinion, it does kind of blend in with the rest of the trains.

I had forgotten about these. I feel like a few of them belong in other series, like the first looks like it would be run by armstrong from full metal alchemist, and and the one next to it looks like one of dr wily's creations. But geez that tingle train, dare i even ask where the coal goes in that one?

 

[Arcadenik]

I would laugh if that Spirit Train stage did feature that weird Tingle train with steam blowing out of Tingle's butt.

 

[FalKoopa]

I would laugh if that Spirit Train stage did feature that weird Tingle train with steam blowing out of Tingle's butt.

I'm pretty sure the Tingle train would be a stage hazard.

 

[Arcadenik]

I'm pretty sure the Tingle train would be a stage hazard.

Yes... with the steam out of Tingle's butt hurting characters because it is poison gas.

 

[memememe]

Tingle Train for Smash Bros.

 

[Groose]

Tingle Train for Smash Bros.

How would you guys feel if the Tingle Train was an alternate, randomly-spawning version of the Spirit Tracks stage?

 

[Zuby]

How would you guys feel if the Tingle Train was an alternate, randomly-spawning version of the Spirit Tracks stage?

It would be strange since it didn't make it into Spirit Tracks when so many other trains did. But since I usually only play short timed matches it wouldn't really bother me much.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I'm thinking the main three Zelda characters will definitely be in.

Link
Zelda
Ganondorf

I think maybe Sheik might be removed.

ToonLink might be replaced, hopefully by Ghirahim, I would love to see Ghirahim added.

 

[TheCreator]

Link is confirmed.
Zelda might as well be, with sheik.
Ganondorf might as well be with a revamped moveset.
Ghirahim has....about a 0.001% chance.
Some other link incarnation might as well be announced.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Don't speak for facts. Sheik may very well be removed.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Besides Sheik representing the role of the Sheikah, let's face it Impa would be a better Sheikah rep than Sheik.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Besides Sheik representing the role of the Sheikah, let's face it Impa would be a better Sheikah rep than Sheik.

I'm pretty sure, Sheik is just representing a popular character who could be incorporated into Zelda's moveset.

If Sakurai thought representing the different races in Hyrule was important, we would have gotten a Goron or a Zora rep by now.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I'm pretty sure, Sheik is just representing a popular character who could be incorporated into Zelda's moveset.

If Sakurai thought representing the different races in Hyrule was important, we would have gotten a Goron or a Zora rep by now.

I don't think we've had a single reoccurring Goron or Zora character, except for Biggoron. I am probably wrong about this, but all the same-- there really isn't a noteworthy Goron or Zora candidate. Unfortunate, too, since I think they're pretty badass.

The main thing is that Sheik at this point doesn't really represent any aspect of the Zelda series except Ocarina of Time. She definitely doesn't accurately represent Zelda's character throughout the series.

Which is why I still think Sheik should be separated so she can independently represent the wonderful game that is Ocarina of Time. Toon Link can represent the toonish part of the series, Link/Zelda/Ganondorf can just represent themselves from all their appearances, and perhaps Impa could represent Skyward Sword.

I would still love another Zelda game where you can control a goron and a zora again. Ahh, Majora's Mask... how great you are.

 

[Arcadenik]

I'm pretty sure, Sheik is just representing a popular character who could be incorporated into Zelda's moveset.

If Sakurai thought representing the different races in Hyrule was important, we would have gotten a Goron or a Zora rep by now.

How about killing three birds with one stone? Masked Link from Majora's Mask... transforms into Deku Link, Goron Link, and Zora Link.

 

[TheCreator]

Saying sheik has a chance to be removed is like saying Zelda could be removed. It's just ridiculous Impa fans trying to find a way that she could be in. Sheik has about as much chance of getting cut as ZSS. Why would they cut ZSS you ask? Exactly. Sheik is pretty damn likely to return, and Impa is pretty damn likely to not be in the game. If she does, It'd be as an assist trophy. If LoZ gets a newcomer, most likely it's another incarnation of Zelda, or Tingle. those are pretty much the only two with a chance. Impa would probably sit somewhere behind ghirahim in chances....and his chances are pretty clearly about .5%

 

[SmashShadow]

Saying sheik has a chance to be removed is like saying Zelda could be removed. It's just ridiculous Impa fans trying to find a way that she could be in. Sheik has about as much chance of getting cut as ZSS. Why would they cut ZSS you ask? Exactly. Sheik is pretty damn likely to return, and Impa is pretty damn likely to not be in the game. If she does, It'd be as an assist trophy. If LoZ gets a newcomer, most likely it's another incarnation of Zelda, or Tingle. those are pretty much the only two with a chance. Impa would probably sit somewhere behind ghirahim in chances....and his chances are pretty clearly about .5%

What you're saying isn't comparable.

Shiek=Transformation of Zelda that occurs in 1 game
Zelda=The main character that occurs in almost every game

You can't honestly put them on the same level of importance as each other. Sheik is NOT going to be in the game or any LoZ game for that matter if Zelda isn't. That should say enough as is.

There's also a big difference between ZSS and Shiek. ZSS can be seen in most Metroid games at some point whether it's just a minor cutscene or not. Secondly, after her playable appearance in Zero mission, she was playable again in Other M. Within her series, Sheik isn't ever seen again after OoT in any way. Their resume's are vastly different as they actually did something with ZSS after puting her in smash. The only thing they have in common is being transformation characters.

I'm not saying that Sheik is likely or unlikely to be cut but rather it's definitely possible for her to be cut. She's likely going to return just based on the fact that she was in the last 2 games.

I also disagree that Impa is that unlikely. She's one of 7 recurring cast members in the LoZ series(4 of which are already in Smash) and she recently had a big role in the last Zelda game. Sheik could honestly work as either her competition or gateway to getting in Smash as her design/existence is based off Impa. Impa could do any of the following: Replace Sheik, replace Sheik and take her moveset, be included alongside Sheik, be included alongside her as a clone, be excluded due to Sakurai seeing them as too similar, be excluded due to competition. You can't possibly put her behind a one-shot villain who is more likely not going to be in the next game especially when we've seen how Smash has handled these kind of characters already.

 

[TheCreator]

What you're saying isn't comparable.

Shiek=Transformation of Zelda that occurs in 1 game
Zelda=The main character that occurs in almost every game

You can't honestly put them on the same level of importance as each other. Sheik is NOT going to be in the game or any LoZ game for that matter if Zelda isn't. That should say enough as is.

There's also a big difference between ZSS and Shiek. ZSS can be seen in most Metroid games at some point whether it's just a minor cutscene or not. Secondly, after her playable appearance in Zero mission, she was playable again in Other M. Within her series, Sheik isn't ever seen again after OoT in any way. Their resume's are vastly different as they actually did something with ZSS after puting her in smash. The only thing they have in common is being transformation characters.

I'm not saying that Sheik is likely or unlikely to be cut but rather it's definitely possible for her to be cut. She's likely going to return just based on the fact that she was in the last 2 games.

I also disagree that Impa is that unlikely. She's one of 7 recurring cast members in the LoZ series(4 of which are already in Smash) and she recently had a big role in the last Zelda game. Sheik could honestly work as either her competition or gateway to getting in Smash as her design/existence is based off Impa. Impa could do any of the following: Replace Sheik, replace Sheik and take her moveset, be included alongside Sheik, be included alongside her as a clone, be excluded due to Sakurai seeing them as too similar, be excluded due to competition. You can't possibly put her behind a one-shot villain who is more likely not going to be in the next game especially when we've seen how Smash has handled these kind of characters already.

But they are not vastly different in the fact that they are both transformations of the same character. I'm here to say as long as Zelda is in this game, Sheik will be too.

And Impa's role in SS is no bigger than the role she had in OOT. Sheik won't be cut or replaced, so there's no way that Impa could have her moveset either. And I do put her alongside ghirahim. Because while ghirahim is super popular and won't be in because he was a one shot, Impa won't be in because overall, she isn't super important, like so many people say she is. Just because she's part of the story in a supporting way really doesn't go for much considering the role could have easily gone to someone else. While Tingle is the same way, (actually MORE occurring, nut LESS important to the story) He is a ton more likely considering the fact that he has his own series. Even with his hatebase. impa fans usually just grasp at straws and have lots of people support it.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

All i want is some change, any change at this point. It would be a hugely wasted opportunity if they all just ended up TP designed and the same as the last game. I want new moves to explore, and the zelda series needs a boost in many ways this time around.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Agreed. The series' potential is heavily limited with a roster as Link, Zelda with bad bad bad gimmicks + irrelevant Sheik, Clonandorf and Clone Link.