Zelda Franchise Discussion

[Robert of Normandy]

Hylian that is a good point. Ness and Captain Falcon haven't had a game in awhile and were one gamers when first added. Ice Climbers as well.

Cap had two games. And I don't think the comparison to Ness is fair, since Mother only had two games at the time, and has very few recurring characters. Also, the Ice Climbers are retro.

I wouldn't mind see Ghirahim, I just think Skull Kid would have a more interesting moveset potential and be a better addition.

I don't want either of them. Honestly, I don't really want(or expect) to see a new Zelda character, but if I had to pick one it would probably be Impa, but not as a replacement for Sheik.

 

[volbound1700]

I'm a big Ghira fan, but isn't it true that Falcon had 2 games when 64 game out? F-zero and X? Otherwise, yeah, history does show one-timers CAN make it...hmm...

Yeah Falcon has about 4-5 games now but at the time he was put in Smash Brothers 64 I think he had only 1. I could be wrong on that. Either way there have been some 1 game characters added.

I don't want any of the 4 cut (although I wouldn't mind Shiek being seperated from Zelda and being another character a la Impa). I like Toon Link as well as Link and I am afraid he will be cut. (Clones don't bother me that much if they have different weights, move strengths, etc. In reality that makes them non-clones to me).

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Yeah Falcon has about 4-5 games now but at the time he was put in Smash Brothers 64 I think he had only 1. I could be wrong on that. Either way there have been some 1 game characters added.

X had been out for a year before Smash. That's 2 games(not counting the BS F-Zero games).

 

[Mirron]

I personally just don't enjoy the combo character aspect, and having played as just Zelda for so long, would really enjoy seeing the two split up. That and it's not really something applicable to any of the more modern games.

I hope they declone Toon Link further. He has a lot of potential to be a unique figure, but so far it's kind of squandered unfortunately. Up-B with the Deku Leaf, Side-B Hammer, and I'm sure a bunch of other potential ideas exist. Heck, could do a Down-B Iron Boots for a big stomp like effect, if they really wanted to. The only one I think that doesn't really warrant changing is his Up-B, since the Spin is what I associate most with Link. But a lot of options, either way.

And I really don't think Ghirahim warrants inclusion. I'm fine with people wanting him, but he doesn't feel like a figure who should be in. But as I said with Skull Kid, even if he isn't really deserving of being in (as his only real noteworthy inclusion would be MM, second TP), I still want him. *shrugs* Hopefully that makes sense. Though, Ness comes from a series with... only a handful of recurring characters. I think the only series that has less recurring figures would be FE (at least in terms of ratio).

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I hope they declone Toon Link further. He has a lot of potential to be a unique figure, but so far it's kind of squandered unfortunately. Up-B with the Deku Leaf, Side-B Hammer, and I'm sure a bunch of other potential ideas exist. Heck, could do a Down-B Iron Boots for a big stomp like effect, if they really wanted to. The only one I think that doesn't really warrant changing is his Up-B, since the Spin is what I associate most with Link. But a lot of options, either way.

I like Toon Link as he is. Only thing I could thing to do is make the changes see in P:M(minus the godawful ^B), and give him the ability to switch between arrowheads. Maybe give him the Whip instead of the Hookshot. But that's it. He's really fine as is. The ideas you've suggested seem like they'd feel gimmicky.

For the record, Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda.

 

[Mirron]

My main concern is that Toon Link (and Link in general) has a lot more than Boomerang, Bow, and Bombs. They can branch out a smidge and make him unique. Which is a lot more interesting to me. I enjoy Toon Link, but I'd like it a bit more if he felt more like his own figure than just Link with mechanical changes. Yes, the changes do make them different enough, but he can be more. It'd also represent some of the more interesting gadgets Link can have. Kind of why I like the idea of Dark Samus, since it means Samus could possibly have some different abilities too. *shrugs*

 

[Big-Cat]

Normals wise, I can't see what else they would need to do to differentiate him from Link beyond PM's changes. I do like the idea of having some way to change arrow heads. Bombs should stay. To differentiate a bit from Link though, Link should have the ability to roll the bombs as a grounded projectile, but Toon Link has a big hitbox on the bomb explosion. Toon Link's Side B as the whip would be nice allong with a Deku Leaf gliding ability. I think that would be enough to really set him apart from Link.

Quite frankly though, it saddens me that toolbox characters like Link and Samus are greatly limited by the game's control scheme in terms of a movepool, but at least Samus could finally have morph ball mode.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I don't mind that Toon Link isn't "unique." He actually does feel a lot different from normal Link to me, even though he shares animations with Link.

@Kuma I'd rather Whip be a Hookshot replacement than a special. Not sure how I feel about Deku Leaf.

 

[Mirron]

I personally like the idea of both, giving him a Side-B which can do a different grab than his normal one. Though, it's kind of hard to use the Hookwhip or whatever it's called (I really need to replay WW) as a Hookshot. And i like the idea of the Deku Leaf for gliding, I didn't want to replace his normal Up-B, but the Deku Leaf works well as a recovery.

Alternatively like the idea of Toon Link pulling out more gadgets for his A-moves. I just really like all of the different gear Link gets, and feel a bit disappointed he only uses such a small fraction of it.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I personally like the idea of both, giving him a Side-B which can do a different grab than his normal one. Though, it's kind of hard to use the Hookwhip or whatever it's called (I really need to replay WW) as a Hookshot. And i like the idea of the Deku Leaf for gliding, I didn't want to replace his normal Up-B, but the Deku Leaf works well as a recovery.

Alternatively like the idea of Toon Link pulling out more gadgets for his A-moves. I just really like all of the different gear Link gets, and feel a bit disappointed he only uses such a small fraction of it.

The reason Link uses the equipment he does in Smash is because it's his most recurring equipment. The rest of his arsenal is VERY game specific.

 

[Mirron]

I cite FLUDD as a good example of game specific not really mattering all that much. Doesn't matter how specific it is to one or two games in the series or not, it'd still do a lot to make him more interesting, at least for me. I'm not asking you to agree with me, merely stating why I want it. *shrugs*

 

[Diddy Kong]

Im totally there with you diddy kong, impa is one of my most wanted characters and i think she would definitely be a great addition. Most of the other sites i went to wouldnt even hear of her inclusion so yes it is good to see you guys are open to and for the idea.

Been advocading for her for a looooong time on here though. And its great to see new people show up and basically already come with the same exact idea. Just shows the potential for the character. And proofs naysayers wrong instantly.

 

[Mirron]

I'm not exactly new, just inactive. I was part of these forums back in 2006, pre-Brawl release. But yeah, Impa is an important figure in the overall Zelda series, which is really the only reason I want her in. As much as Sheik and the Down-B thing may annoy me, it's really the fact that Impa is the most recurring figure outside of the main three that makes me want her. Her roles may not always be that large, but then again not like Tingle's really are all that much normally either.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Exactly. And I doubt they're done with the character just yet. Skyward Sword prooved they have plenty ideas left for her in the overall storyline of Zelda. I think she'll return with even better roles or similar enough at least.

 

[Mirron]

I'm certainly hoping so. Zelda's nature kind of makes it hard to have recurring characters. So I'd like them to do a bit more with the ones they've included in multiple games. Even if this means more Tingle I'd be fine if it also means more Impa and Vaati (the other two major recurring figures that I can think of). Bringing back older characters would be nice as well.

 

[TheCreator]

Exactly. And I doubt they're done with the character just yet. Skyward Sword prooved they have plenty ideas left for her in the overall storyline of Zelda. I think she'll return with even better roles or similar enough at least.

As do I with Tingle

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I cite FLUDD as a good example of game specific not really mattering all that much. Doesn't matter how specific it is to one or two games in the series or not, it'd still do a lot to make him more interesting, at least for me. I'm not asking you to agree with me, merely stating why I want it. *shrugs*

But FLUDD sucked. The cape would be a better example, as it's actually useful.

Given that the various Links are composites of multiple Links, it makes sense that they'd only use reocurring equipment. The one piece of Toonie's equipment that isn't reocurring is his hookshot, hence why I could see it being replaced with the whip(from Spirit Tracks).

 

[Zuby]

But FLUDD sucked. The cape would be a better example, as it's actually useful.

Given that the various Links are composites of multiple Links, it makes sense that they'd only use reocurring equipment. The one piece of Toonie's equipment that isn't reocurring is his hookshot, hence why I could see it being replaced with the whip(from Spirit Tracks).

That'd be good, but if we're going for the most recurring items then I'd give him the grappling hook, since he uses it in both The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass and (I think) is exclusive to Toon Link, whereas he shares the whip with adult Link in Skyward Sword.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

That'd be good, but if we're going for the most recurring items then I'd give him the grappling hook, since he uses it in both The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass and (I think) is exclusive to Toon Link, whereas he shares the whip with adult Link in Skyward Sword.

Does he? Well, I haven't played PH much, so I didn't know. Grappling Hook then.

 

[Mirron]

They aren't really composite. They certainly don't feel composite at least. *shrugs* And I can cite a bunch of moves, like Peach's turnips, or... I'm sure there are more, but I don't really feel like thinking about it too much. I think there is enough to give Toon Link more unique B-moves and other attacks in general.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

They aren't really composite. They certainly don't feel composite at least. *shrugs* And I can cite a bunch of moves, like Peach's turnips, or... I'm sure there are more, but I don't really feel like thinking about it too much. I think there is enough to give Toon Link more unique B-moves and other attacks in general.

Link is definatley a composite. In Smash 64, he was asthetically based on Adult Link from OoT(and used the Jump Attack from OoT as his fSmash). However, he used the boomerang, which Adult Link couldn't use in OoT. He also got his uAir and dAir from Zelda 2.

Young Link in Melee is also a composite of his MM and OoT versions. He uses the Wooden Shield, which he only had in OoT, but he uses weapons he only had in MM.

Given that all the other Links are composites, it stands to reason that Toon Link might be a composite as well.

 

[Mirron]

I suppose I'll just agree to disagree and end it here, even if I hate that term, because I wouldn't really call any of that particularly true composite. Kirby is closer to being a composite of his various Copy abilities, but still is falling short of that, than Link (normal, Young, or Toon) were of the various Links.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I'd also like to add this:

His design is taken from specific Links, but he shows traits of [being a composite character], such as his boomerang being blue like in the original and A Link To The Past, or his intro in Brawl being the warp tornado, again from the original, instead of the Twilight transportation more fitting for Link from Twilight Princess. His Dair and Uair also come from Zelda II for the NES, and even in his Twilight Princess design he has the previous Link's sword moves, like his jab combo.

Source

You might say it's just a coincidence(or something), but at the very least it's clear Smash Link isn't any one of the Links from one specific game.

 

[FalKoopa]

I want toon link to use the weapons specific to him - gust jar, mole mitts, for example.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I want toon link to use the weapons specific to him - gust jar, mole mitts, for example.

Would the Mole Mitts really be that practical? And given that Gust Jar/Deku Leaf wouldn't be very different from FLUDD, I doubt they'd be very effective either.

 

[Curious Villager]

One other recurring item in the Zelda series is the Hammer and for Toon Link's case the Grappling Hook. (But the Grappling Hook seem's to be an item I'd rather see Tetra use if she were to become playable.) The Skull Hammer or the Hammer he used in Phantom Hourglass would basically work in two way's. When he stand's still he bashes it to the ground (basically how he does it in Wind Waker in order to press larger switches or crush his enemies etc) or he uses it in a homerun like fashion when he uses it while moving. (The other alternative way he uses it in Wind Waker)

The Grappling Hook could probably be useful at snagging items from opponents like he could in Wind Waker and if his opponent isn't holding any items he could use the grappling hook as another grab move. If not, keep the snagging item bit out and just have him use it as another grab move.

Though I think the Deku Leaf is better off as a part of his spin attack. So it would work like Peach's and Mr. Game & Watch's Up Special's. Mainly, use the spin attack mid air and then take out the deku leaf to make it to safety easier. Also he should definitely be able to perform the Hurricane Spin if he charges his spin attack on the ground. I wonder why they didn't let him do that in Brawl. They can make it work like the Project M's one.

He should be able to toggle his arrow heads so he can shoot either normal, fire or ice arrows, if not then randomizing is also fine.

And maybe give him the Mirror Shield instead so he could have a chance at deflecting certain projectiles. He could still be animated the way he was in Brawl in order to not make the shield too overpowering or like a Franklin Badge that sticks to him forever or something.

That's basically the only changes I could see for Toon Link in smash 4 if he would receive any... Or maybe that would make him too overpowered?

 

[FalKoopa]

Would the Mole Mitts really be that practical? And given that Gust Jar/Deku Leaf wouldn't be very different from FLUDD, I doubt they'd be very effective either.

Oh, I forgot the cane of Pacci. Might be similar to the star rod. Or could make the enemy trip.

 

[Mirron]

Then what qualifies as composite for you and I is different is all. A minor reference here or there in the moveset isn't the same as truly being a composite character, because both of them have a lot more references they could pull to make themselves more unique. *shrugs* But like I said, just one of those things we're not liable to agree upon, and ultimately moot as I doubt Toon Link will be much different, though I certainly hope for more of a Luigi treatment.

Deku Leaf can be used as a recovery part after the Up-B as suggested by Kikwi, or as a Glide option, either of which would be pretty different.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Deku Leaf can be used as a recovery part after the Up-B as suggested by Kikwi, or as a Glide option, either of which would be pretty different.

After the Up-B would be acceptable to me. Actually, if they did that, I wouldn't have a problem with him having the pitifully showt ^B from P:M.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

And maybe give him the Mirror Shield instead so he could have a chance at deflecting certain projectiles. He could still be animated the way he was in Brawl in order to not make the shield too overpowering or like a Franklin Badge that sticks to him forever or something.

He already had the mirror shield, but giving it some of the benefits it actually had would be nice.

 

[Curious Villager]

He already had the mirror shield, but giving it some of the benefits it actually had would be nice.

What? Really? I thought he used the Hero's Shield in Brawl...

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

What? Really? I thought he used the Hero's Shield in Brawl...

no wait your right, my bad. Strange though for some reason i felt like id seen him with it during brawl. I guess it has been a while haha

 

[Zuby]

Oh, I forgot the cane of Pacci. Might be similar to the star rod. Or could make the enemy trip.

The Gust Jar and Mole Mitts were also added to Skyward Sword, albeit renamed. Toon Link's running out of exclusive items that could actually work in-game. The Sand Wand would be great but would be very hard to implement due to needing sand to work.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I thought Toon Link's Deku Leaf and Link's Sailcloth could be used as sort of 'glide-like' moves? Where you would just push the jump button and they'd use the items like in the games. I imagine Dixie's helicopter spin working similar to it.

 

[Curious Villager]

Oh darn I forgot Skyward Sword Link also had his sail cloth. Guess they both could end up with a parachute like item if Sakurai wanted to... not that that's a bad thing since the sail cloth and deku leaf could help them greatly as a recovery tactic whether its a part of their up special or "gliding" move. But we could probably be back with the whole "clone" issue again... =/ Maybe Toon Link's Deku Leaf could let him cover larger distances than Skyward Sword Link's Sail Cloth? I don't know...

 

[Arcadenik]

I cite FLUDD as a good example of game specific not really mattering all that much. Doesn't matter how specific it is to one or two games in the series or not, it'd still do a lot to make him more interesting, at least for me. I'm not asking you to agree with me, merely stating why I want it. *shrugs*

Mario's cape is only in Super Mario World too. Peach's vegetables are only in Super Mario Bros. 2. Bowser's Down+B move is only in Super Mario Bros. 3. Yoshi's Final Smash is only in Super Mario World too.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Since Link would be based off of Skyward Sword he would use the various items from that game.

From the sailcloth to glide and the ability to roll bombs, to the whip/claw shots for grapple and the beetle for some distance (to help pick up items).

Obviously the sword, shield, and bow are still there.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

...the beetle for some distance (to help pick up items).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOGSiTXyBzk&t=0m6s

Replacing Boomerang with beetle is a terrible idea. The Beetle would be completely useless in matches without items. At best it could see it being a crappy version of Snakes Nikita.

Edit: Also, I don't see rolling bombs being implemented. For one, it's not that useful. Second, bombs in Smash don't really work like they do in Zelda anyway.

 

[Curious Villager]

Or maybe the beetle could just work like the boomerang's did in the past. That is. It flies the direction you send it off then it turn's and comes back to you as well as being able to grab any items for you if there are any... Then again, they might as wel design for him a boomerang to use...

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't want the Beetle either... Skyward Sword Link should use Skyward Strike. That's way more iconic to the game and the overall series in general.