Zelda Franchise Discussion

[Ember Reaper]

Basically, yeah, retro character's inclusion seems most random, at least it seemed to be the case for Ice Climbers. Cause they basically where picked for their 2 in 1 character potential. So yeah, if a cool, popular retro is fitting, they seem to be less hesistant putting such a character in. Around the time of Melee, it seemed to be the case for Marth as well.

I don't have a clue what you mean with Marth. He was the first Fire Emblem Lord it only makes sense to have him if Fire Emblem is included.

People forget to remember that Sheik's inclusion was probably decided on in 2005, in which she might very well still have been planned for Twilight Princess.

Okay. It still doesn't change the fact that she wasn't in TP,and we don't know how late in the game process she was cut from TP. Otherwise, good point.

You basically forget that Old Impa tells you what the Imprisoned's weaknesses are, and gives you hints battling him. Also, she's the first protector of the Triforce, even sealed it away, and personal bodyguard of the Goddess' mortal form. She does help BOTH Link and Zelda tremendously throughout their quest. Moreso than Sheik, who only tells you where the Hookshot is (in which she helps getting you into the temples) and teaches you songs so Link can be a lazy *** **** and warp around Hyrule just for the heck of it.

That's not true, she just tells you to stop him, not what the Imprisoned's weakness is. The triforce doesn't even come into play until Link gets it near the end of the game, and when he retrieves it, Zelda promises to protect it with him. So Impa isn't the first protector it's Zelda and Link. Yes she's the personal body guard. I wouldn't say tremendously, that's giving her too much credit. She helps very much yes, but you make it sound like Impa is the one who saved everyone in Skyward Sword.

It's a much better written character than Sheik, who just pops up tells you a tale as:

Water is deep,
Deep as my soul
Use the Iron Boots,
And sink through that hole.

And then disapears.

It is definitely not that simple. Sheik is far more poetic.

"We meet again, Link... If you came here to meet the Zoras, you wasted your time... This is all there is... With one exception, the Zoras are all now sealed under this thick ice sheet... I managed to rescue the Zora princess from under the ice, but... she left to head for the Water Temple... This ice is created by an evil curse... The monster in the Water Temple is the source of the curse. Unless you shut off the source, this ice will never melt.... If you have courage enough to confront the danger and save the Zoras, I will teach you the melody that leads to the temple. Time passes, people move.... Like a river's flow, it never ends... A childish mind will turn to noble ambition... Young love will become deep affection... The clear water's surface reflects growth... Now listen to the Serenade of Water to reflect upon yourself.... (learn Serenade of Water) Link... I'll see you again..."

Sheik is a rather complex character, to know so much, say so much in such a poetic way, and allow Link to continue his quest. Old Impa does that for Link in SKyward Sword, but only a few times within the few times he returns to the Sacred Grove. When Sheik appears to give advice at least once before every temple and sometimes multiple times for a temple. They both have good stories in their own way, but Sheik's influences OOT Link rather often compared to how Impa affects SS Link. Impa may help SS Zelda very much, but we don't see that enough. We know they were close friends because Zelda was sad her friend had died in her old age, but that's pretty much all we see.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Marth indeed was the best idea, but just to name a character where the most recent game / appearance didn't mather, cause of overall relevancy to the series.

Sheik wasn't in TP yes, but the fact that she was considered made her probably more viable than say, Midna. Given that she would appear again eventually. But in the next game they used Impa instead, and since both are Sheikah, it could've easily been Sheik, if they wanted to. That's my whole point.

Of coarse Impa didn't safe everyone, that was basically Link, but damn, did he need the help of Impa. You're right, Old Impa doesn't reveal his weaknesses, but at least she did, something. Memory is a little foggy, but she gives you tips and hints in how to beat him at least. There's also a lot of debt in Impa's character that isn't really observed as easily, but if you get the whole story, you'll see her part has quite an.. Impact. Which is why I feel she contradicts and adds to the character Sheik a lot. She was basically written as a 'reverse Sheik' in a way. Cannot explain how, but Impa really appears as a Sheik 2.5 in Skyward Sword. And intentionally so.

That made up poem was a joke though, as I know she's quite poetic, but do poems really justify her as a character? Check the Fire Emblem universe for example. Lots of poetic stuff in there, but I would still prefer the main characters as Marth, Ike, Roy and Chrom to be in over those. Levin from FE4 especially said some deep stuff. And unlike Sheik, he's got actual on screen fighting abilities. Just to give you a comparison...

 

[Ove]

On screen fighting abilities aren't relevant, and you know that. Sakurai can make a decent moveset out of characters that hasn't been seen fighting in their games.

 

[kikaru]

I see Sheik being equivalent to Falco in terms of relevance and time spent in Smash. The only difference is that The Legend of Zelda isn't dead. So if we're saying Sheik is losing relevance then in my opinion the same thing could be said about Falco.

In my opinion, if we see Skyward Sword's Impa in the next Zelda game (or some equivalent) then that character will have a higher probability to make it into the next Smash. If not I will give it to Sheik for being in more games in both the Zelda and Super Smash series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I see Sheik being equivalent to Falco in terms of relevance and time spent in Smash. The only difference is that The Legend of Zelda isn't dead. So if we're saying Sheik is losing relevance then in my opinion the same thing could be said about Falco.

Except Falco has been in every Starfox game and he has had a huge role in each of them. Sheik appeared once. Was important for one game. And has never appeared again.

 

[Spire]

I could easily see Star Fox reps dropping to just Fox, with Krystal as a maybe second. That series really seems to be dead. Seems like Nintendo Land was Nintendo's way of saying, "here are the things we care about the most right now," but with Kirby and Fire Emblem absences as well, Star Fox may just be on the backburner.

Also, just gotta say this: anyone think that Miis should have been based on Animal Crossing Villagers? For the first time ever, it seems that would have been a really smart thing to do.

 

[DMurr]

I could easily see Star Fox reps dropping to just Fox, with Krystal as a maybe second. That series really seems to be dead. Seems like Nintendo Land was Nintendo's way of saying, "here are the things we care about the most right now," but with Kirby and Fire Emblem absences as well, Star Fox may just be on the backburner.

The Metroid game in Nintendo Land was originally made as a Star Fox level, but they converted it to Metroid. This was because the way the ship flies doesn't really work for an arwing or something.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I see Sheik being equivalent to Falco in terms of relevance and time spent in Smash. The only difference is that The Legend of Zelda isn't dead. So if we're saying Sheik is losing relevance then in my opinion the same thing could be said about Falco.

In my opinion, if we see Skyward Sword's Impa in the next Zelda game (or some equivalent) then that character will have a higher probability to make it into the next Smash. If not I will give it to Sheik for being in more games in both the Zelda and Super Smash series.

As has been said, Falco is in every Star Fox game. Even Adventures. So he definitely has that over Sheik. He's also been Luigified greatly, so that shows he did have potential to be more than Fox's clone as in Melee. :falcobrawl:

Sheik also hasn't been in more games than Impa. Skyward Sword Impa is one appearance yeah, but it's more fighter potential and overall an more influential role than Sheik's. And if you count OoT3D as a new appearance, Impa is also still a character in OoT. So that alone debunks your whole argument.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Sheik wasn't in TP yes, but the fact that she was considered made her probably more viable than say, Midna. Given that she would appear again eventually. But in the next game they used Impa instead, and since both are Sheikah, it could've easily been Sheik, if they wanted to. That's my whole point.

Sheik and Zelda are the same person, that wouldn't make sense because then Sheik(Zelda) would grow into old age protecting Zelda(herself) and then die, but actual Zelda would continue living to protect the triforce. The roles are not reversible. They can be compared, but Impa is Zelda's protector and Sheik is Zelda's fighting side.

Of coarse Impa didn't safe everyone, that was basically Link, but damn, did he need the help of Impa. You're right, Old Impa doesn't reveal his weaknesses, but at least she did, something. Memory is a little foggy, but she gives you tips and hints in how to beat him at least. There's also a lot of debt in Impa's character that isn't really observed as easily, but if you get the whole story, you'll see her part has quite an.. Impact.

That's implying Sheik did nothing in OOT which I've said multiple times just isn't true. You get hints throughout the entire game in SKyward Sword. There's literally a stone with challenges in skyloft that has walk through videos on how to do everything. I'm not kidding it's behind the sword academy. It will walk you through the game holding your hand, both hands in some cases. You made the Impact joke already, yes it's a good one.

Which is why I feel she contradicts and adds to the character Sheik a lot. She was basically written as a 'reverse Sheik' in a way. Cannot explain how, but Impa really appears as a Sheik 2.5 in Skyward Sword. And intentionally so.

This makes no sense. I have no clue what you're trying to convey at all.

That made up poem was a joke though, as I know she's quite poetic, but do poems really justify her as a character?

A joke?!??! really???? I looked forward to those parts so much. They were always sayings to bring 2 friends together. They helped you on the way, they left you as a player understand the lore and story better. That's very similar to saying any dialogue that is artsy could be considered a joke. That's a lot of very serious points in video games to call jokes.
And that's what makes her character, just how wise and knowledgeable she is. In a way that can help you.

Check the Fire Emblem universe for example. Lots of poetic stuff in there, but I would still prefer the main characters as Marth, Ike, Roy and Chrom to be in over those. Levin from FE4 especially said some deep stuff. And unlike Sheik, he's got actual on screen fighting abilities. Just to give you a comparison...

I'm not saying the poetic stuff makes her smash worthy, I'm saying that adds to her character, and to the game lore as a whole.
And on creen abilities??? Fox, Falco, Ness, Captain Falcon, ROB
You never see them do things outside their ship/racer, the fighting screen, or ... well he stacks things... Great movesets were made for all.... Falco could use a bit more diversification, but it's getting there.

 

[Curious Villager]

Sorry Ember Reaper, but I just had to facepalm to some of your counterarguements.

When Diddy was reffering to the poem being a Joke, he was referring to his own made up poem, not the Game's poem.

And you need to remember that at the end of the day, the character's are just toy's. Zelda and Impa can easily work together if the designers want to. Just like how they made the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon share their damage counter together.

It doesn't matter if we've never seen Fox or Falco physically fight before smash. Its easy to imagine that they have done some combat training back at Corneria or something. Fox even asked General Pepper about why he couldn't take his blaster in Starfox Adventures implying he has used it before at some point.

And honestly, its your own fault if you keep using the Sheikah stone in that game. No one forces you to use it. And if you don't, why make a big deal over it?

 

[Frostwraith]

Add Impa, keep Sheik. Everybody's happy.

"OMG herp teh designs derp herp"

Add a pinch of Skyward Sword artstyle to a mix of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess designs. Put them on a blender and hit frappé!

Fox and Falco's designs are a mix of their SF64 and Command designs and Pit got a whole new design for Brawl, unlike, you know, the Ice Climbers.

Zelda in Smash always had the Sheik transformation, so why would it be changed because of a trivial reason like design? It doesn't make sense.

Impa can have a different moveset... could perhaps have darkness attacks (like Ganon), since you know, she's the Sage of Shadow. Could still be ninja styled, being speedy, similar to Sheik, but would have a touch of dark magic into the mix. She could have moves like throwing knifes and shoot dark magic blasts.

 

[Diddy Kong]

She has different sort of magic in Skyward Sword though, implies to looks most like Nayru's Love kind of magic. Especially the barrier. Instead of throwing knifes, she could use those magic balls perhaps to slow down time (like the Lanayru Orbs in SS). Her being the Sage of Shadow could give her teleporting abilities, but I'd still like to see the Deku Nut for Down B, just because it was an item in Brawl and could work very well in her moveset.

Sure Sheik and Impa could both be on the roster, but I don't think that's too likely to happen.

Oh and about the Triforce part: Sure, Link and Zelda take care for it, after those 1000 +/- years happened, as they left it with Impa in the 'distant past' and went back to the future. By the time they came back, the Triforce was on the same place as before: the Goddess Statue from Skyloft. Meaning in the meanwhile, Impa had to take care of it. And I doubt Link and Zelda would live a thoussand years like she did.

Anyways, what I meant to say is that with Impa, they basically rewrote the role Sheik had, and added up to it. Sure, Sheik's poems had kind of debt in it, but action speaks louder than words.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Sorry Ember Reaper, but I just had to facepalm to some of your counterarguements.


When Diddy was reffering to the poem being a Joke, he was referring to his own made up poem, not the Game's poem.

ah darnit....

And you need to remember that at the end of the day, the character's are just toy's. Zelda and Impa can easily work together if the designers want to. Just like how they made the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon share their damage counter together.

I don't mind if Impa gets in, I really don't. The issue I have is replacing Sheik.
I have said this before so many times. Have alternate costumes, where we have stylized Zelda who can transform into SHeik, and then the same Zelda who can swap with Impa. I would be entirely fine with that and everyone would be happy. but not to replace Sheik.

It doesn't matter if we've never seen Fox or Falco physically fight before smash. Its easy to imagine that they have done some combat training back at Corneria or something. Fox even asked General Pepper about why he couldn't take his blaster in Starfox Adventures implying he has used it before at some point.

He was using the on screen argument against Sheik. And Fox's moveset for smash 64 was made before Adventures, so I'm talking back in Starfox/64 days

And honestly, its your own fault if you keep using the Sheikah stone in that game. No one forces you to use it. And if you don't, why make a big deal over it?

You face palmed so much over all this stuff? It seems you misinterpreted every point.
Diddy was saying how Old Impa helped you, but I was saying you literally got help everywhere, and enough help to make Old Impa seem negligible in help compared to that stone. I used that stone only once.... I didn't realzie I could catch the bee's with the net...

And no DIddy, Impa never gets a hold of the triforce. Link gets it from Sky Keep, uses it against Demise and brings it back to Zelda himself once she reawakens. Impa never once holds onto it in Skyward Sword.

 

[kikaru]

When I said relevance I did not mean relevance in their own respective games, I meant relevance in Super Smash. Of course Falco is relevant in Star Fox... >__> My main argument is that Sheik has appeared and survived through two Smash games so I don't see Sheik being dropped entirely. As far as adding Impa never did I imply that I wouldn't like it to happen. As far as I can see Impa has a chance of getting in, but to completely replace Sheik is too far in my opinion.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, depending or not if they gonna use Skyward Sword styles, I think it'll determine wether they use Sheik or not. Cause Impa would fit the deal quite well, and would add new moves to the character. Implying of coarse, they gonna add new moves in general.

Besides, Skyward Sword models would mix up better with Toon Link's Wind Waker style, and would not give such a contrast like in Brawl. Do a free for all with Toon Link, Sheik and Ganondorf on the Pirate Ship, and you'll see.

And I do not think they'll skip adding in a new character anyway for Zelda. Much like Mario, both series where kinda overlooked in Brawl for newcomers (outside of Toon Link, who I more consider like a Luigified Young Link- so in that sence, Falco and Ganondorf would also be 'newcomers'). And it's obvious the Zelda characters need a huge revamp.

Hence why I think if they gonna go lazy mode, they keep the current cast, give Link and Zelda Skyward Sword designs, and Ganondorf a Wind Waker design, Luigify Ganondorf and Toon Link more, and make Impa the seprate Sheik. Lazy mode: give her Sheik's entire moveset + Deku Nut for Down B. I cannot think of another character that has both the potential to be entirely unique, of a 'solo Sheik'. In both sences, it's wise to look at Impa for a new character. Wether it'll be a total new / unique addition or not. It'll certainly beat a Captain Falcon- copied moveset for Ganondorf.

And I'm not really hating Sheik, I just don't think she has enough reasons to stay a staple in Smash. Especially regarding the previous difficulties with her, character balance for Zelda, and relevancy. It all adds up. I'm not picking on her for nothing, she really appears to be the weakest link in Brawl's cast. Not counting retro's, but otherwise, only the Ice Climbers do I consider worse perhaps...

Hope I cleared that up a little. Sure, I'd actually LIKE TO SEE a Impa vs Sheik fight in Smash. However, it just seems like it's either one or the other at this point. Which is kind of a shame. For the record: I even play Sheik in both Melee and Brawl. :sheikbrawl:

Here's a cool picture to make it up though:

Spoiler

Also, fans of Ganondorf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxxYVT0kylo . :ganonmelee:
More: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMiLZWZYg3s :linkbrawl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg7shY64_ZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxDaizGjIp4 :sheikbrawl:"

All made by the maker of the above image. Some cool ****.

 

[Walzern]

ITT: Nobody in Smash Bros. has a design that didn't come from a specific game. Like Wolf.

 

[Curious Villager]

It was mostly about your poem arguement where I facepalmed the most since you were getting all defensive for nothing but yeah...

Yes of course they can go for both Sheik and Impa and I'm sure that's the best way for everyone. At the end of the day, I'm a Zelda player so I personally wouldn't care what they would do with her transformation. The only reason I don't go supporting a made-up Skyward Sword Sheik is because it would feel like supporting a made-up Wind Waker Sheik, especially when Wind Waker Zelda already has Tetra (and Phantom Zelda if we count Spirit Tracks). That's just the way I feel about this. That's why I just don't care what they do with Skyward Sword Zelda's transformation. I'm not against Sheik, mind. I'd much rather she stayed and just add Impa instead of cutting one over the other etc.

Yes I know you were specifically talking pre-smash 64. I'm only mentioning Adventures since it pretty much confirmed that Fox at least had other types of training in the past besides flight, tank and submarine training by vehicle. The game itself showed that Fox was perfectly capable of fighting by foot. But that's besides the point.

That's my point. Yes the game has features that gives you hint's thrughout the game. But optional ones such as the Sheikah stones really shouldn't be used as an arguement for this since that's hint's that you basically asked to see, not forced upon you by the game. That's like me complaining that the Hint system of the Professor Layton games is making the puzzle's easier for me. Yes of course they do if I myself choose to activate them in the first place, of course it will be easier for me and its my fault for doing so. Their just there if your a little stuck and need some extra help. I'ts like a virtual strategy guide. If you want the maximun difficult experience, avoid using things like these unless you really need them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

ITT: Nobody in Smash Bros. has a design that didn't come from a specific game. Like Wolf.

The entire Zelda cast would a word with you. While they are meant to be conglomerations of different iterations of the same character and their movesets and animations reflect that, their models are each based off of a particular game. Link's, Zelda's and Ganondorf's models were all based on their TP models. Sheik was given a TP treatment and Toon Link's model was based off the Wind Waker and the Phantom Hourglass.

Even more, Ike's appearance is just his Path of Radiance look.

 

[Onyx Oblivian]

The entire Zelda cast would a word with you. While they are meant to be conglomerations of different iterations of the same character and their movesets and animations reflect that, their models are each based off of a particular game. Link's, Zelda's and Ganondorf's models were all based on their TP models. Sheik was given a TP treatment and Toon Link's model was based off the Wind Waker and the Phantom Hourglass.

Even more, Ike's appearance is just his Path of Radiance look.

See, but I am really anticipating, and maybe even betting, to see that this Smash will see a unique style for the Zelda crew. With the next game not coming out even remotely soon, the Zelda cast will have original art types that best reflect the series as a whole. They might just take Link from the "HD tech demo" like they did with Link from Melee and the Space world demo, and then style everyone similarly with iconic wear. I really think this is going to be the case.

Also: I strongly believe deep down that we will NOT be seeing Zelda "Skyward" pink dress style. And since Ganondorf doesn't have that art style as well this makes my "original art style" prediction a lot more likely, I feel.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I would rather have the zelda cast look more like an amalgamation of various zelda games, becoming unique characters rather than just going with whatever new zelda looks came out last

 

[Onyx Oblivian]

I would rather have the zelda cast look more like an amalgamation of various zelda games, becoming unique characters rather than just going with whatever new zelda looks came out last

I agree, 100%. But its funny to think what would have happened if Wind Waker came out significantly before Melee. Would they have gone with that art style? Haha

 

[Ember Reaper]

Yes of course they can go for both Sheik and Impa and I'm sure that's the best way for everyone. At the end of the day, I'm a Zelda player so I personally wouldn't care what they would do with her transformation. The only reason I don't go supporting a made-up Skyward Sword Sheik is because it would feel like supporting a made-up Wind Waker Sheik, especially when Wind Waker Zelda already has Tetra (and Phantom Zelda if we count Spirit Tracks). That's just the way I feel about this. That's why I just don't care what they do with Skyward Sword Zelda's transformation. I'm not against Sheik, mind. I'd much rather she stayed and just add Impa instead of cutting one over the other etc.

I don't really care how they do it as long as Sheik isn't cut, they could even do OOT zelda with Sheik, TP zelda with Sheik, and SS zelda with Impa. fine by me. That's probs make everyone happy too, which is best.

Yes I know you were specifically talking pre-smash 64. I'm only mentioning Adventures since it pretty much confirmed that Fox at least had other types of training in the past besides flight, tank and submarine training by vehicle. The game itself showed that Fox was perfectly capable of fighting by foot. But that's besides the point.

That's my point. Yes the game has features that gives you hint's thrughout the game. But optional ones such as the Sheikah stones really shouldn't be used as an arguement for this since that's hint's that you basically asked to see, not forced upon you by the game. That's like me complaining that the Hint system of the Professor Layton games is making the puzzle's easier for me. Yes of course they do if I myself choose to activate them in the first place, of course it will be easier for me and its my fault for doing so. Their just there if your a little stuck and need some extra help. I'ts like a virtual strategy guide. If you want the maximun difficult experience, avoid using things like these unless you really need them.

Don't go agreeing with me and then using it against me. It doesn't make sense.
I'm not complaining at all. If I was complaining about SS I would say it's too easy, but I think that stone would help new players to think more in terms of what Zelda games are asking for. But to me someone who has played all the 3d titles and then some of the 2d (not all, hoping to soon...) that stone is nothing because I refused to use it. I don't understand how you see me as complaining at all when I'm trying to make a point, but seeing as we seem to have reached a happy medium with alternate costumes or both characters being in being okay with everyone, I see no point in pushing that point further. Especially if it has been misunderstood twice.


I'm not hoping for anything in particular, but I think the best way to represent each character is to have Link and Zelda be SS based, Ganon be OOT or TP based, Toon Link be WW based, and the newcomer pending on who it is:
Ghirahim/Impa: SS
Vaati/Tingle/Toon Zelda: WW

Then alternate costumes for each game would be cool too, so people could play TP Link and such

 

[W1nedown]

Give some credit to the creators who have a strong connection to the characters and not just to satisfy u.
Only characters that should be removed is characters who dont have popularity and who dont have character!!!!PERIOD My argument is that the game needs more Villains, The great battle of good vs evil is something we all can relate too ;}
Are We still On Ghirahim? This just feels my heart with rainbows, hahahlol

I am not gonna use any Midna example since she is not a villain. but ill use Zant which is another character which everyone compares with Ghirahim along with Majora.

These are the common argument used on Ghirahim while being compared with Zant, Majoras "they are all one shots, they are unimportant, they are not even the main villain. they were the recent game by the time smash came so if Zant and Majora's didn't make it then Ghirahim won't" here's my counter argument and my answer to your question.

1. how about we start with the fact that Ghirahim comes from the most prequel game of Zelda franchise, and in the game we notice that Ghirahim was one of the responsible villain that caused ALL the Zelda cycle to happen. Both Skyward sword and Ghirahim makes Majora's Mask and Zant/Twilight princess look like fillers.

2. Unlike Zant and Majora, Ghirahim had the most presentation as a villain for one game.

3.Unlike Zant and Majora, Ghirahim had many battles with Link than just one battle to end it all.

4.Unlike Zant and Majora, Ghirahim was successful, his goal was to free his master and he did.

5. some says he was not the final boss, technically, when you think about it, he is.

6. Ghirahim showed a lot of moveset potential in his game. Zant also has his, but this has to be pointed anyways.

7. most recent Zelda game...yeah i know it's not a strong valid point, but it's still something, the same way Zelda characters got Twilight treatment just because it was latest game.

8. Ghirahim is CURRENTLY one shot, but his game is too recent, it's too early to categorize him as someone who ended only as one shot like Majora and Zant when we don't know if Nintendo still or will have plans for the character. Ganondorf was once a one shot, Ganon as well, Vaati too, and Dark Link as well, who says that they are the only ones that won't be one shots?

9.This is my opinion but i see potential in Ghirahim coming back, not only he was actually a relevant villain that had something to do with the main stories, but because his very identity was good material, he is like the dark version of the master sword, used by the god incarnation of Ganondorf, not bringing him back would actually be a waste. you can tell they put a lot of heart into this character.

And no i don't think his chances are 100% but i think his chances are higher than Zant and Majora.

 

[Arcadenik]

Vaati wasn't in Wind Waker...

It still amazes me how some people are in denial of historical facts. Skull Kid (Majora's Mask) and Zant (Twilight Princess) were the most recent villains at the time Melee (for Skull Kid) and Brawl (for Zant) were developed and they did not get in. If Ghirahim isn't in Smash 4, I think it will be safe to say that all the future one-time villains in all the future Zelda games will never get in Smash.

 

[Gene]

Vaati wasn't in Wind Waker...

It still amazes me how some people are in denial of historical facts. Skull Kid (Majora's Mask) and Zant (Twilight Princess) were the most recent villains at the time Melee (for Skull Kid) and Brawl (for Zant) were developed and they did not get in. If Ghirahim isn't in Smash 4, I think it will be safe to say that all the future one-time villains in all the future Zelda games will never get in Smash.

Pretty much this. And like I said a few pages ago, the only Zelda villain we need is Ganondorf.

 

[Arcadenik]

Agreed. I really hope Ganondorf is further decloned and gains speed and dual swords from Wind Waker HD. But with Sakurai, you never know... I can already picture Sakurai trolling with a screenshot of Ganondorf pulling out two swords as his new taunt on the Dojo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Majora wasn't really a filler though, if anything, Skull Kid / Majora is rather similar to Ghirahim / Demise. Both the 'actual' end bosses show up their faces at the last moment, Skull Kid and Ghirahim appearing to be mere puppets for them. Skull Kid probably more so, but that doesn't mean he lacked personality at all. Plus, the Skull Kid was also re-occuring. He's possibly the same Skull Kid you meet in Twilight Princess for example.

Ganondorf however also wasn't really created to be a one-shot. His name first appeared in Link to the Past, where he was reffered to as 'King of Thieves'. Later in Ocarina of Time, he first showed his face in human form. Same as Impa really, who was also 'always there' but first began showing her face in Ocarina of Time. Besides, Ganondorf is GANON's human form. Ganon has been in Zelda since the beginning. Of coarse he would show his face again in a next game after Ocarina of Time.

Sheik had the same potential, but next major console release after Majora's Mask (which was basically a side quest to Ocarina of Time, a sequel) they shamelessly replaced Sheik with Tetra. Scrapped her from her role in Twilight Princess, and then in Skyward Sword, they choose Impa as the Sheikah character. See how many times she got the boot? And still people wanna see her in Smash?

 

[Spire]

Majora, Zant, and Ghirahim are all currently one-shots, but remember: Sheik was one-shot as well. Sure, she gets credit for being Zelda, but Sheik has appeared in as many Legend of Zelda games as those villains. Ghirahim is definitely the most important of these three villains, and while Vaati has appeared in three games, one of them is barely a game (Four Swords), one is more or less an expansion of that game (Four Swords Adventures), and the other was a decent handheld (The Minish Cap). Ghirahim is the featured villain of Skyward Sword, undeniably one of the biggest releases in the series' history. Main console games take precedence, and Vaati has neither been featured in one, nor has he returned since 2005's Minish Cap. He's as relevant as Agahnim at this point.

As of now, I would say Impa and Ghirahim have an equal chance of getting into Smash. Impa could co-exist with Sheik, but she would most likely replace the transformation. Given their sheer similarity (and you could do something inventive, but Sakurai stated he wanted to focus on unique characters) Impa would most likely be a Sheik replacement. If Ghirahim made it, he would fill that secondary villain slot.

I have a feeling that Ghirahim will return in the next Zelda game, be it for 3DS or Wii U. If so, that may just cement him as a Zelda mainstay, thus awarding him a slot on the Smash roster. My dream representation in Smash would be:

• Link
• Zelda
• Ganondorf
• Toon Link
• Impa
• Ghirahim

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't really care how they do it as long as Sheik isn't cut, they could even do OOT zelda with Sheik, TP zelda with Sheik, and SS zelda with Impa. fine by me. That's probs make everyone happy too, which is best.

Yes I know you were specifically talking pre-smash 64. I'm only mentioning Adventures since it pretty much confirmed that Fox at least had other types of training in the past besides flight, tank and submarine training by vehicle. The game itself showed that Fox was perfectly capable of fighting by foot. But that's besides the point.



Don't go agreeing with me and then using it against me. It doesn't make sense.
I'm not complaining at all. If I was complaining about SS I would say it's too easy, but I think that stone would help new players to think more in terms of what Zelda games are asking for. But to me someone who has played all the 3d titles and then some of the 2d (not all, hoping to soon...) that stone is nothing because I refused to use it. I don't understand how you see me as complaining at all when I'm trying to make a point, but seeing as we seem to have reached a happy medium with alternate costumes or both characters being in being okay with everyone, I see no point in pushing that point further. Especially if it has been misunderstood twice.


I'm not hoping for anything in particular, but I think the best way to represent each character is to have Link and Zelda be SS based, Ganon be OOT or TP based, Toon Link be WW based, and the newcomer pending on who it is:
Ghirahim/Impa: SS
Vaati/Tingle/Toon Zelda: WW

Then alternate costumes for each game would be cool too, so people could play TP Link and such

Dude you sound a little pissed. Did I offend you or something? Honestly, I'm literally laughing out loud right now. XD I don't have the time to reply to you right now since I'm in College but we can talk later about it if you like. If not then forget about it. I didn't mean to drag the confo longer than it should have been. =p

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree with Spire actually.

 

[bubbaking]

People shouldn't forget: Technically, you fought Demise four times as opposed to Ghirahim's three times. I had a much more memorable time trying to keep the ominous Imprisoned One from reaching the top of the Sealed Grounds than I did fighting that.....clown (although he was much more epic when he transformed).

Ghirahim is more similar to Vaati than Zant. It would at least make sense for him to return, seeing as he's the counterpart to the Mastersword. Ghirahim is strong, and death means virtually nothing in the Zelda universe. Zant is an ordinary Twili without Gannondorf. If he returned, it would be seen (and be, period) half-***ed. And, Demise isn't the main villian of Skyward Sword. He does nothing besides fight Link in the game. Litterally nothing. Your goal in the game wasn't stopping Demise's evil plot, it was Ghirahim's. I think I've made this comparison before, but saying Demise is the main villian of SS means you're saying that Palpitine is the main villian of the first Star Wars movie instead of Darth Vader.

Ok fine, Vaati's the same deal, honestly. Vaati ultimately ended up being that 'almost-final-boss' whose strings were just being pulled by the main puppeteer, Ganon himself. Ghirahim didn't just die. If he did, he could be re-incarnated somehow. He ceased to exist after Demise's fight, which would explain why he never shows up in ANY other LoZ games (which all take place after SS in the storyline) while Demise, Zelda, Link, and Impa are all re-incarnated in some shape or form. It would be extremely awkward to bring Ghirahim back for this one reason (past games that are ahead in the timeline screw it up).

Ghirahim coming back would be as "half-***ed" as Zant coming back, especially when there's no Demise to revive. Ghirahim was NOT the main villain of SS; Zant was even more of that than Ghirahim was. At least Zant wanted to rule the entire world, both shadow and light. Ghirahim simply wanted to revive his master so that Demise could rule the world. That's hardly 'hardore main villain' status, more like bi***-ni***.

Your goal throughout all of SS was to STOP Demise from being freed from his seal. Why do you think you had to fight the Imprisoned One so many times? Demise breaking free was way more important and disastrous than anything Ghirahim could muster.

Tl;dr - Demise was more important than Ghirahim, just as Ganondorf overshadowed Zant.

She was also heavily mentioned in Twilight Princess by Impaz.

Impaz practically WAS Impa, lolz!

You do realize Sheik was revealed to be in Melee before Zelda? Go back and look at the trailer. The entire starting roster is revealed, save for Zelda. The newcomers revealed are Bowser, Ice Climbers, Peach, and Sheik. Not Zelda. If she's such a side character why was she revealed first?

Yet Sheik wasn't a selectable character. She was another form + moveset that you had to access via Zelda. She wasn't exactly a "side character" but she definitely wasn't as important as Zelda, not until Brawl at least.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry for the double post, but I really wanted to get these out of the way before I went to sleep.

I haven't heard anywhere that people want WW styled Ganondorf. I only hear people being against that concept.

Wow, seriously? You haven't spent much time in this thread then. I haven't asked for him myself (I like TP Ganon) but I can definitely say that there are several people here who want WW Ganon to be in Smash 4, especially with the announcement of LoZ: WW HD.

Sheik is a rather complex character, to know so much, say so much in such a poetic way, and allow Link to continue his quest. Old Impa does that for Link in SKyward Sword, but only a few times within the few times he returns to the Sacred Grove. When Sheik appears to give advice at least once before every temple and sometimes multiple times for a temple. They both have good stories in their own way, but Sheik's influences OOT Link rather often compared to how Impa affects SS Link. Impa may help SS Zelda very much, but we don't see that enough. We know they were close friends because Zelda was sad her friend had died in her old age, but that's pretty much all we see.

I disagree with this strongly. I personally felt like a much stronger connection was forged between the player and Impa than was forged between the player and Sheik. Sheik showed up briefly to give cryptic messages and then disappeared. Old Impa had numerous quite lengthy dialogues with Link, as well as several short ones, and her info was extremely helpful. Her actions caused her to strike me as a sort of motherly figure, watching over your and Zelda's progress. She could always be found easily, unlike the unreliable Sheik. I felt a much greater sadness when Old Impa revealed who she was and what she had had been spending her entire life doing, and when she died, than when Zelda sent you back to the past or when Navi left your side for good. Her connection to both Link and Zelda was also, to me, more wholesome than Sheik's existence as Zelda's alternate persona.

Young Impa imparted a sense of urgency when she told you that you weren't good enough and that you were almost too late for Zelda, and there was a sense of duty and companionship when you sprung in front of Ghirahim to protect her after the Demon 'Lord' struck down her force field. It was like she had challenged you to improve, and when you saved her, she finally acknowledged your skills. This feeling of comradeship made the shock even greater when you found out that she was the Old Lady and had dedicated her entire life towards helping you and Zelda a second time.

To me, Impa, in both forms, was just as important, if not more so, both emotionally and physically, as Sheik was, and she was just as helpful and crucial to the drive of the story. Without her, there would have been no LoZ. It makes sense that her role was so important. It was the only way to justify her multiple reincarnations in later games, despite not being a main character like the other reincarnated characters.

Sheik and Zelda are the same person, that wouldn't make sense because then Sheik(Zelda) would grow into old age protecting Zelda(herself) and then die, but actual Zelda would continue living to protect the triforce. The roles are not reversible.

Actually, this could have worked as a never-ending time loop (like how Harry Potter continually saves himself in the Prisoner of Azkaban; there are other well-known instances of time loops like this, as well), albeit a somewhat complex one. Zelda would have grown a little older protecting the Triforce with Link and then taken a time gate (as Sheik) to the past to around the time when Zelda fell from Skyloft. There, she would escort Zelda and reprimand/encourage Link. After their adventure was over (in the FAR past), she would do what Impa actually did in SS and wait at the Sealed Grounds until Zelda fell from Skyloft so she could begin her role as a guiding hand and source of information to both Zelda and Link. After the end of THIS role, she could die after revealing to Zelda that the two of them were the same person. Thus, the cycle would be restarted anew once Zelda realized that she would have to go to the past herself to keep the cycle going.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik would've easily fit into Skyward Sword. Instead of chasing Zelda and Impa, Link would meet Sheik, who is literally just Zelda in disguise, but she hides herself cause she's now growing aware of that she is / was Hylia. Impa was chosen cause she would fit in the story better. And the eventual result: a character much better written than Sheik. In role, and character. Bubbaking explained this very well.

Impaz was kinda interessting though. Sure, she was mere an old woman, but before Skyward Sword, there was never no Old Impa in the games actually. Sure, she specifically stated she was named after the 'great one who build this village such a long time ago' (aka: Impa) but still, she sorta served as the Old Impa. With her guarding the old Kakariko Village in the name of the Royal Family, and her having the knowlegde how to fix up the Dominion Staff. Implying the Sheikah had some sort of connection to the Ooccaa? Who might as well be living in the Skyloft of old??

 

[TheCreator]

Give some credit to the creators who have a strong connection to the characters and not just to satisfy u.
Only characters that should be removed is characters who dont have popularity and who dont have character!!!!PERIOD My argument is that the game needs more Villains, The great battle of good vs evil is something we all can relate too ;}
Are We still On Ghirahim? This just feels my heart with rainbows, hahahlol

I am not gonna use any Midna example since she is not a villain. but ill use Zant which is another character which everyone compares with Ghirahim along with Majora.

These are the common argument used on Ghirahim while being compared with Zant, Majoras "they are all one shots, they are unimportant, they are not even the main villain. they were the recent game by the time smash came so if Zant and Majora's didn't make it then Ghirahim won't" here's my counter argument and my answer to your question.

1. how about we start with the fact that Ghirahim comes from the most prequel game of Zelda franchise, and in the game we notice that Ghirahim was one of the responsible villain that caused ALL the Zelda cycle to happen. Both Skyward sword and Ghirahim makes Majora's Mask and Zant/Twilight princess look like fillers.

2. Unlike Zant and Majora, Ghirahim had the most presentation as a villain for one game.

3.Unlike Zant and Majora, Ghirahim had many battles with Link than just one battle to end it all.

4.Unlike Zant and Majora, Ghirahim was successful, his goal was to free his master and he did.

5. some says he was not the final boss, technically, when you think about it, he is.

6. Ghirahim showed a lot of moveset potential in his game. Zant also has his, but this has to be pointed anyways.

7. most recent Zelda game...yeah i know it's not a strong valid point, but it's still something, the same way Zelda characters got Twilight treatment just because it was latest game.

8. Ghirahim is CURRENTLY one shot, but his game is too recent, it's too early to categorize him as someone who ended only as one shot like Majora and Zant when we don't know if Nintendo still or will have plans for the character. Ganondorf was once a one shot, Ganon as well, Vaati too, and Dark Link as well, who says that they are the only ones that won't be one shots?

9.This is my opinion but i see potential in Ghirahim coming back, not only he was actually a relevant villain that had something to do with the main stories, but because his very identity was good material, he is like the dark version of the master sword, used by the god incarnation of Ganondorf, not bringing him back would actually be a waste. you can tell they put a lot of heart into this character.

And no i don't think his chances are 100% but i think his chances are higher than Zant and Majora.

Stopped reading when I figured out this was pointless and didn't prove anything. And as for the last sentence, yes. You are right sir.

As for sheik....nobody is going to convince me that she has any reason to leave. And nobody is going to tell me that Impa is more important to her. Because sheik is princess Zelda; that's like saying robin is better than Bruce Wayne, but NOT batman.
Edit: I'm not sure this is the right way to get my point across lol

 

[Diddy Kong]

Tetra > Sheik. In that sence, Tetra should be regular Zelda's transformation.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Stopped reading when I figured out this was pointless and didn't prove anything. And as for the last sentence, yes. You are right sir.

As for sheik....nobody is going to convince me that she has any reason to leave. And nobody is going to tell me that Impa is more important to her. Because sheik is princess Zelda; that's like saying robin is better than Bruce Wayne, but NOT batman.
Edit: I'm not sure this is the right way to get my point across lol

Well, actually if the game was a Batman fighting game, and we got Bruce Wayne instead of Robin, I would prefer Robin than having Bruce Wayne added

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ok, I know who's Batman, I kinda know who's Robin. But who's Bruce Wayne?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Ok, I know who's Batman, I kinda know who's Robin. But who's Bruce Wayne?

Batman

You probably don't know who D.ick Grayson is either

 

[TheCreator]

Batman

You probably don't know who D.ick Grayson is either

Let's not talk about batman guys. And it was an analogy lol

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nope.

I do know Batman is the Hero Gotham City deserves, but not the one it needs right now.