Zelda Franchise Discussion

[Ember Reaper]

We weren't even talking about Ganondorf...
Yes OOT or even TP Ganondorf would represent him best. I haven't heard anywhere that people want WW styled Ganondorf. I only hear people being against that concept.
Using that logic then, the idea of Impa should be fading, and the concept of Toon Zelda should be brought back.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, unlike Tetra, Impa still has the potential of being that 'solo Sheik'. Toon Zelda / Tetra would just be a new character, possibly only being Luigified clones. Impa has more than that, plus, she's the only likely candidate besides Tingle who isn't from a remake.

 

[Ove]

I can really see SS Impa in Smash. Oracle Impa would be awesome. She could be like Fat Princess in PSBAR (;

Sheik won't probably be left out. It's difficult to imagine Zelda without her transformation. Sheik is Zelda, and if Zelda is in, so will Sheik be.

Toon Zelda/Tetra will probably have a bigger change being in when taking WW HD in consideration. Tetra is one of my all time favourite characters, so I really would like to see her in. As for Toon Zelda, not necessarily as important as Tetra...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Characters change every time. So Sheik = Zelda, and that that will forever stay like that cause it always been like that is a bad excuse. See Samus, she suddenly got Zero Suit Samus added into her moveset. Mario also suddenly got a new Down B in Brawl based on his latest major game release... See where I'm getting at?

 

[Ember Reaper]

Characters change every time. So Sheik = Zelda, and that that will forever stay like that cause it always been like that is a bad excuse. See Samus, she suddenly got Zero Suit Samus added into her moveset. Mario also suddenly got a new Down B in Brawl based on his latest major game release... See where I'm getting at?

ZSS didn't affect Samus' moveset. They are 2 entirely different movesets, and to play one pretty much says youre not playing the other.
Mario's down B was just moved to down aerial. So no I don't.

I also saw in the roster discussion that you hate Sheik more than Sonic and you're known for disliking Sonic. If your want for her to leave is based off of that dislike then say that. Don't go saying Sheik will likely be removed just because you don't like her. That's an opinion, not a fact.

 

[Diddy Kong]

My opinion of not liking her comes from her irrelevance, hence I feel she shouldn't be in.

ZSS and Samus aren't one moveset, but exactly that is what I meant. Zelda and Sheik are linked through their Down B moves, and rarely ANYONE plays them togheter anyway. At least, not in the way you're implied to play as them which is: do damage with Sheik, KO with Zelda.

Fact remains that Sheik is hugely irrelevant. And that's why I don't like her. I even sorta side-main her in Melee, and I still want her gone.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Fact remains that Sheik is hugely irrelevant.

Where? Where is this stated? Did Sakurai state this? Did Miyamoto say Sheik was irrelevant? Has anyone who works with Nintendo say this? You could say the same about Pit and Ice Climbers. Both are dead series, one shot (2 shot for KI in America), but here they are in Brawl and Melee respectively. To say that at least Ice Climbers is irrelevant makes sense. However they are in Brawl, and there's very little clamor for them to leave.
So no, that fact does not exist. She wasn't relevant in Brawl's days, yet she still made it in. It's likely safe to assume that melee characters who weren't cut are staying, including Sheik.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Retro characters obviously don't have to be relevant, that's against their purpose. I think it'll begin to mather as soon as more characters from the same franchise are being added. Say, we'd obviously rather include Palutena over the Eggplant Wizard. Hence, the roles characters play, and their overall relevancy mathers. And quite a lot.

And really, the pre-Brawl arguement can't be used all the time. If you paid a little attention, you basically see me rebunking this idea that apperantly stays in people their mind that Sheik returned cause she was considered to be in Twilight Princess, but got scrapped.

This may or may not been decided before Sakurai had his roster finished, but fact remains: she was considered again, so not dead yet. Now, she's pretty much dead. No concept art for her either in Skyward Sword, but hey, another Sheikah character DID appear in the next Zelda major console release. But it wasn't Sheik. It was Impa. And the next time, this will also happen. Sheik won't be in any Zelda game thats not called: 'The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time'.

Also, Impa wasn't around pre-Brawl. Or at least, she wasn't relevant enough yet. So of coarse they didn't add her back then. They also refrained from adding any other new Zelda characters, cause Sakurai might've realised all TP characters where pretty much one-offs. However: they replaced the by-then irrelevant Young Link for Toon Link. And people generally didn't give a ****.

Now see why Impa replacing Sheik won't be even half as bad? Its just the conservative kids who don't want any changes, but hey: there where cuts from Melee to Brawl. And Brawl even has more characters than Melee, so likely there'll be cuts again. And then, would a Sheik replacement be so bad? Opposed to not having Sheik at all? Make that decision for yourself...

 

[Walzern]

Ganon won't be in SSB4.

He wasn't in Skyward Sword.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ganon is still relevant. Sheik is not. Next point?

 

[Walzern]

How is Ganon still relevant? His last appearance that wasn't a remake was Twilight Princess. And it hasn't been confirmed that he's in the Wii U Zelda either.

Spoiler

And it wasn't said Ganon was the only incarnation of Demise's Hatred/Malice.

 

[Diddy Kong]

He's still relevant to the series as a whole.

 

[Walzern]

And "Sheik" is Zelda's persona. Who is relevant to the series as a whole.

 

[Curious Villager]

Isn't she just only Ocarina of Time Zelda's persona? Not every single other Zelda's persona. Especially Wind Waker Zelda, who is Tetra's alter ego? :/

Not that I support Impa or Want Sheik gone or anything. They can do whatever they wan't with Zelda. So long as they keep "Toon Sheik" far away from Toon Zelda if she becomes playable. That transformation place belongs to Tetra. >:l

Oh wait I got what you mean. Sorry... ><

 

[Diddy Kong]

Tetra to. Might as well change a random Zelda from the latest Zelda game into Tetra.

What about Phantom Zelda? Yup, also Zelda. But just in one game? Yeah, we don't give a ****, let's ****ing do it. But be sure to give her a made up Skyward Sword design, cuz thats how we roll round here.



You guys basically sound like that.

I remember the times Toon Sheik was actually used in an arguement against Impa. Good times.

Yeah, it should be Tetra. No Toon Sheik.

 

[Curious Villager]

Oh no Diddy Kong. I'm not against Impa either. I just don't care what they do with Zelda. If they want to give her Impa as her transformation or whatever then fine. They wan't to give her a Sheik design then alright by me. I mainly play as Zelda anyway's and less as Sheik so I don't really care what they do with her.

I will care what they do with Toon Zelda's transformation though since I like Tetra a lot. Double standard I know.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You NINJA'D me, that's why. Wasn't directing at you at all.

I'm the opposite. I mainly play as Sheik, not Zelda. But thats irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Curious Villager]

Ah alright. Silly me. ^^;

 

[Walzern]

Zelda in the SSB games is not exclusively OOT Zelda or TP Zelda or SS Zelda or any other single Zelda.

She's a composite character. Like Link and Snake.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Link's Gale Boomerang, Ganondorf's sword taunt and Toon Link's Wind Waker taunts heavily disagree.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Link's Gale Boomerang, Ganondorf's sword taunt and Toon Link's Wind Waker taunts heavily disagree.

I fail to see how this means those characters aren't composites. In those instances, they just happened to have moves from their most recent incarnations.

 

[N3ON]

Zelda in the SSB games is not exclusively OOT Zelda or TP Zelda or SS Zelda or any other single Zelda.

She's a composite character. Like Link and Snake.

Pretty much all her moves are from OoT (though Link was the one to use most of them, and some worked a bit differently). I wouldn't call her a composite character.

IIRC the only thing not from OoT was her physical appearance in Brawl (and her most likely SS-based appearance in SSB4).

 

[Walzern]

Where did Link in TP have a fairy?

And where did anybody use in TP any of Zelda's B moves. Where was Zelda's fire magic when Zant's group attacked Hyrule Castle?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Pretty much all her moves are from OoT (though Link was the one to use most of them, and some worked a bit differently). I wouldn't call her a composite character.

IIRC the only thing not from OoT was her physical appearance in Brawl (and her most likely SS-based appearance in SSB4).

Her FS is from TP(and WW). Those are the only games she uses the Light Arrows herself.

And, to be fair, I don't think she showcased many other abilities in TP that you could draw from. Though I haven't finished TP, so I could be wrong.

 

[N3ON]

Her FS is from TP(and WW). Those are the only games she uses the Light Arrows herself.

And, to be fair, I don't think she showcased many other abilities in TP that you could draw from. Though I haven't finished TP, so I could be wrong.

True, the Light Arrows are in more games than just OoT, but all I meant is that all her attacks could in theory solely come from OoT. She didn't use those magic spells in OoT either, Link did, like the arrows, but her attacks could all be seen as being based on one game.

She doesn't mix elements that exist solely in separate games (not that she needs to), but, like you said, she really didn't have too much to work with pre-Brawl or pre-Melee other than the OoT stuff she didn't actually do herself.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I'd like to add that Link is definatley a composite character. In 64 and Melee, despite being based visually on Adult Link from OoT, he was able to use the Boomerang, which only Young Link could do. His uAir and dAir came from Zelda 2. Seems like a composite character to me.

 

[Walzern]

And he had a fairy with him in Brawl. Which he did not have in TP.

 

[Big-Cat]

We weren't even talking about Ganondorf...
Yes OOT or even TP Ganondorf would represent him best. I haven't heard anywhere that people want WW styled Ganondorf. I only hear people being against that concept.
Using that logic then, the idea of Impa should be fading, and the concept of Toon Zelda should be brought back.

Really, I usually wave about WW Ganondorf when the topic comes up. It's a sadly often overlooked option.

On the topic of composite characters, we could argue that Zelda could've transformed into the two or three alter egos she has if we want to go that far. As Diddy pointed out several times, part of the problem, in Smash, is that people usually play one of the other because they are so different in playstyle. They're not complementary like how similar characters with a couple of opposite traits would work (like real life opposites attract). Rather, they're polar opposites and that usually doesn't work in regards to synergy. Complementary would be Gen's Mantis and Crane stances as those two are essentially two movesets for one character.

 

[Arcadenik]

And he had a fairy with him in Brawl. Which he did not have in TP.

LOL you mean to tell me there were no fairies in Twilight Princess? No fairies to keep in bottles in Twilight Princess?

 

[Frostwraith]

TP Link had no fairy companion. In fact, that fairy comes from the Wii version of TP, where it only serves as a pointer. Bottle fairies are pink, while the fairy from Link's taunt and pointer is blue, like Navi from OoT. Another point is that in SSE, Link is being followed by the same blue fairy when he grabs the Master Sword.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Where did Link in TP have a fairy?

And where did anybody use in TP any of Zelda's B moves. Where was Zelda's fire magic when Zant's group attacked Hyrule Castle?

In the Wii version the fairy was your cursor in TP.

TP Zelda should've used her rapier I felt.

But yeah, of coarse some of the moves of characters come from other games. But still, the idea of Link using those moves from other games isn't so farfetched cause after all its the same Link who incarates everytime. Same spirit so to say.

Which is also why I feel using SS Zelda as a base for a new character could work best in a way of revamping her, cause she's the first Zelda, the first incaration of Hylia. So they can rewrite her moves better.

Sheik would then not even be needed, but her moves could easily be revamped in Impa. Not even suggesting she would be a clone, just give her a similar playstyle, and maybe keep only Sheik's aerials.

Also, Link with Skyward Strike and other new moves from Skyward Sword would also be a good base to create a new moveset for him. Possibly making him somewhat quicker. Vertical spin attack could also be his new Up B in the air and make him recover differently than before. And maybe use his Double Clawshot for recovery if that's possible someway. Also, I suggest a very quick AAA combo which is like Marth's Side B but quicker and weaker, less knockback, semi high damage and just 3 hits.

Toon Link could inherrit mostly the old Link playstyle; Bombs, Boomerangs, and Arrows. Also, Hurricane Spin WW style for him please. He even has it in Phantom Hourglass. To make him more like a classic Link, give him Fire and Ice effects on his full charged arrows.

Ganondorf: either should be Ocarina of Time moveset based or Wind Waker. Personally, I can't choose. But OoT's boss battle seems most iconic for him. And it's also more likely the next Ganondorf boss fight in the next Zelda game would not have him with twin blades. As awesome as that would be... OoT Ganondorf could be used as a new 'staple' moveset for Ganondorf. I think it's either that or he'll just get further Luigified from Captain Falcon... Hopefully not. Wind Waker's style would surely be more unique but I feel its less likely to happen...

 

[Robert of Normandy]

TP Zelda should've used her rapier I felt.

She's a princess, not a Lord, so I don't think she could have.

 

[Diddy Kong]

TP Zelda can do a dimensional warp in space and time with down B in Brawl. I think she'd be able to figure out how a sword works. :zeldabrawl:

Also, Zelda had a specific OoT costume in Brawl, same with a OoT Sheik. Guess they figured out they had to. Dark Toon Link also never excisted but was nice however.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Also, Zelda had a specific OoT costume in Brawl, same with a OoT Sheik. Guess they figured out they had to. Dark Toon Link also never excisted but was nice however.

You mean color swap? Not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Walzern]

In the Wii version the fairy was your cursor in TP.

The cursor was not a companion of Link in TP Wii. This is not case for SSB Link, since a fairy can clearly be seen accompanying Link in SSE in the vein of Navi or Tatl.

But yeah, of coarse some of the moves of characters come from other games. But still, the idea of Link using those moves from other games isn't so farfetched cause after all its the same Link who incarates everytime. Same spirit so to say.

No it isn't, Wind Waker Link has no relation to the OOT Link. OOT Link interacts with TP Link as the Hero's Shade.

Which is also why I feel using SS Zelda as a base for a new character could work best in a way of revamping her, cause she's the first Zelda, the first incaration of Hylia. So they can rewrite her moves better.

By doing what? Swinging a sword around?

Sheik would then not even be needed, but her moves could easily be revamped in Impa. Not even suggesting she would be a clone, just give her a similar playstyle, and maybe keep only Sheik's aerials.

And what's Impa makes more worthy here than in OOT? And why would she get in instead of Ghirahim if we're looking at characters who were prominent in SS?

Ganondorf: either should be Ocarina of Time moveset based or Wind Waker. Personally, I can't choose. But OoT's boss battle seems most iconic for him. And it's also more likely the next Ganondorf boss fight in the next Zelda game would not have him with twin blades. As awesome as that would be... OoT Ganondorf could be used as a new 'staple' moveset for Ganondorf. I think it's either that or he'll just get further Luigified from Captain Falcon... Hopefully not. Wind Waker's style would surely be more unique but I feel its less likely to happen...

SSB4 Ganon will probably be based on Demise appearance and voice wise. Don't be surprised if he's still based on Captain Falcon.

Also, I doubt anybody in the development team really cares that much over what the characters can actually do in their games. If they do, then how can Zelda even fight Ganon without being smashed into the ground?

 

[Arcadenik]

TP Zelda can do a dimensional warp in space and time with down B in Brawl. I think she'd be able to figure out how a sword works. :zeldabrawl:

Also, Zelda had a specific OoT costume in Brawl, same with a OoT Sheik. Guess they figured out they had to. Dark Toon Link also never excisted but was nice however.

Dark Toon Link did exist. It was in Four Swords Adventures for the Gamecube.

 

[Ove]

@Diddy Kong, Sheik isn't outdated. With that argument, we would never have Mr. Game & Watch in Smash.

Sheik played a big roll in OoT, you can't just forget that. Sakurai didn't remove Sheik in Brawl, even though she hadn't appeared since OoT. Why would he do it now?

Sheik has been in two Smash games, no character that have been in the series for so long has been left out so far.

 

[Diddy Kong]

COULD PEOPLE STOP BRINING RETRO CHARACTERS TO THIS? They obviously do not count. They are retros, they DONT HAVE TO BE RELEVANT. There's a big difference between reviving an old skool character for Smash (Pit, Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, R.O.B.) than adding a second character from an existing, popular, long running franchise (Mario, Donkey Kong, Metroid, ZELDA).

Relevance has no issue for a character from a series that's not even relevant at all. Am sick debating that, and fail to see how people fail to see.

He'd remove Sheik now cause now she wasn't even planned for the latest major console Zelda, aka Skyward Sword. She WAS however planned for Twilight Princess pre-Brawl. And: Impa is now relevant, and more awesome. And actually has fighting potential. Better yet, she's a separate character.

And no, I don't feel Sheik has a big role in OoT. If she has however, be prepared to get blown away by Skyward Sword's Impa.

Really, it's not just my preferences. I usually am a ***** in preferences, as in, extremely picky. And usually back my **** up, if I can be bothered.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Relevance has no issue for a character from a series that's not even relevant at all.

....What? that's a rather confusing statement, it's tough to follow.
Wouldn't that mean every single retro should get into smash no problem? So smash 4 should have the characters: duck hunt dog, lip, bubbles, mach rider, mr. stevenson, demille, prince sabure, sheriff, etc... no problem?

He'd remove Sheik now cause now she wasn't even planned for the latest major console Zelda, aka Skyward Sword. She WAS however planned for Twilight Princess pre-Brawl. And: Impa is now relevant, and more awesome. And actually has fighting potential. Better yet, she's a separate character.

I think not being in Twilight Princess would have been enough reason to cut Sheik. Yes there was a design for her, but that could have been kept secret and we may have never known.
Bold = opinion.
Sheik has fighting potential... she's pretty much a ninja... a Shiekah trained by Impa to be able to protect herself, so she can definitely fight even if we haven't seen her do so in a Zelda title. I don't see how being a separate character makes her better than Sheik.

And no, I don't feel Sheik has a big role in OoT. If she has however, be prepared to get blown away by Skyward Sword's Impa.

Well that's just wrong! Without Sheik you are unable to get into each temple as an adult. That's a huge deal! That's literally more than half of the game right there. The second sentence doesn't make sense.... Also Impa never really helps Link... she just mocks you and runs away... The old woman on the other hand is helpful, who is Impa, but she doesn't help as many times as Sheik does.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Basically, yeah, retro character's inclusion seems most random, at least it seemed to be the case for Ice Climbers. Cause they basically where picked for their 2 in 1 character potential. So yeah, if a cool, popular retro is fitting, they seem to be less hesistant putting such a character in. Around the time of Melee, it seemed to be the case for Marth as well.

People forget to remember that Sheik's inclusion was probably decided on in 2005, in which she might very well still have been planned for Twilight Princess.

You basically forget that Old Impa tells you what the Imprisoned's weaknesses are, and gives you hints battling him. Also, she's the first protector of the Triforce, even sealed it away, and personal bodyguard of the Goddess' mortal form. She does help BOTH Link and Zelda tremendously throughout their quest. Moreso than Sheik, who only tells you where the Hookshot is (in which she helps getting you into the temples) and teaches you songs so Link can be a lazy *** **** and warp around Hyrule just for the heck of it.

It's a much better written character than Sheik, who just pops up tells you a tale as:

Water is deep,
Deep as my soul
Use the Iron Boots,
And sink through that hole.

And then disapears.