Your top ten list in Brawl+

[~tgm_Zeej]

Huh...I actually thought Ness was quite good. Nowhere near bottom five, but not exactly near top ten either. Sort of middle ground.

Apparently not.


I have no input on a top 10 currently.

 

[King Funk]

Kirby is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFKylgGk73I

 

[xMPx]

My top 10(No order):

Marth
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Kirby
Fox
Falco
Luigi
Wario
Shiek
Olimar

 

[Dokutayuu]

No idea about ten but Olimar and Squirtle both have to be in there.

 

[Roxas215]

Kirby is...

Originally Posted by SpoonyOne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFKylgGk73I

Truer words have never been spoken!

But i agree pit along with chairzard is probably the most underrated in the game!

 

[King Funk]

Originally Posted by SpoonyOne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFKylgGk73I

Truer words have never been spoken!

But i agree pit along with chairzard is probably the most underrated in the game!

Kirby has been certified un-****ing-believable by Christopher Walken.

I don't understand why Pit isn't even considered into top 10, he has a great moveset and a very good combo game. Maybe he's just underused because he's too irritating. ^^

 

[Roxas215]

Kirby has been certified un-****ing-believable by C and christopher Walken.

I don't understand why Pit isn't even considered into top 10, he has a great moveset and a very good combo game. Maybe he's just underused because he's too irritating. ^^

He's not even that irritating in brawl+ and is fun as hell to watch. He rarely needs to spam now. I played rogue pit and pit's combos are so crazy.

 

[Shoshidai]

Here's my top 10 (no particular order)

Lucario
Pit
Toon Link
Ike
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Snake
Marth

 

[Mattnumbers]

Here's my top 10 (no particular order)

Lucario
Pit
Toon Link
Ike
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Snake
Marth

Seriously? No Meta Knight? If this guy doesn't change anything Marth will be the only person that has never been left out.

 

[Roxas215]

Here's my top 10 (no particular order)

Lucario
Pit
Toon Link
Ike
Fox
Falco
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Snake
Marth

Where's mk?? You really think ike falcon sonic and tl are better then mk?

 

[Shoshidai]

Where's mk?? You really think ike falcon sonic and tl are better then mk?

whichever, these are all my honest opinions

 

[GHNeko]

Where's mk?? You really think ike falcon sonic and tl are better then mk?

Obviously he does if MK isnt on his list.

​

 

[TLMSheikant]

Neko- ur posts always make me laugh XD. But yeah its weird he thinks TL sonic and cf are better than mk o_O.

 

[crazycrackers]

Lol @ not including MK. *sigh...* (duck)

 

[Kief]

he probably just somehow forgot him.

 

[Andarel]

I don't think Pit is top 10 material, but it's possible. His combos are mostly DI-able and he's not as mobile in the air as I'd have thought for an angel (he makes up for this with 4 or 5 jumps, can't remember how many), but his moveset just works so well at every range and bair is amazing.

 

[FSLink]

No particular order top10:
Squirtle
Pikachu
Metaknight
Marth
G&W
Luigi
Kirby
Sheik
Falco
Lucario

Notables: ZSS, Peach, Lucas, Fox

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

I have only had Brawl+ for a short amount of time but so far these are the characters that I see doing well;

Marth
Shiek
Squirtle
Peach
Captain Falcon
Falco
Kirby
Pikachu
Fox
Meta Knight

No particular order.

 

[darkchaos59]

In no order.

Marth
Ike
Fox
R.O.B.
Wario
PT
Lucas
DDD
Mario
Lucario

 

[crazycrackers]

Oh someone necro'd the thread? W/e one more vote for Peach XD. Also darkchaos what is your reasoning behind D3?

 

[Kuga]

In no order.

Marth
Ike
Fox
R.O.B.
Wario
PT
Lucas
DDD
Mario
Lucario

No MK again.
You must DIE *Ugly Face*

 

[Plum]

No MK again.
You must DIE *Ugly Face*

It's not like MK is one of if not the best gimpers in the game, amazing range, transcendent priority, great combo game, and the best recovery in the game or anything.

Oh wait...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Now that we have reached 50 I feel I should post this here. I think a good use for this would be for the WBR to see how much explaining they need to do to justify buffing a character high on this list. This is not because this list is correct, but because this list signifies the public opinion on Brawl+.

36 out of 40 characters made it onto this list (PT is counted as a character)
Marth is the ONLY character that EVERYONE had on their list
I think I should PM this to some WBR member just as a way to guage how much complaining they will get over buffing certain characters.
Again I'm not in any way saying that this list is correctly ordered, and I HIGHLY doubt that it is.
Out of 50 (remember some people might just forget characters)....
Marth: 50
MK: 48
Fox: 44
Squirtle: 40
Luigi: 34
Kirby: 34
Sheik/Zelda: 30
Falco: 29
Olimar: 22
Captain Falcon: 21
ZSS: 17
Lucario: 15
Pikachu: 14
Diddy: 14
Snake: 13
Peach: 11
Wario: 9
G&W: 6
Wolf: 5
Sonic: 5
R.O.B.: 5
Ivysaur: 4
DK: 4
Toon Link: 4
Lucas: 4
Ike: 4
Pit: 3
Mario: 3
Jigglypuff: 2
Charizard: 2
DDD: 2
PT: 1
Samus: 1
Link: 1
Ganondorf: 1

 

[Kief]

Go for it. While this isn't 100% accurate, or a tier list, it's a very good way to show the collective opinion of the community on how good each character is. I wouldn't suggest this as a way to show which characters would need buffing, but instead an idea of some characters that could use a few nerfs. Because we're not voting on which characters are bad, just which ones are the best.

 

[Roxas215]

How anyone doesn't have fox or mk on their list is beyond me. Like thats not even debatable.

 

[Zodac]

Marth: 50
MK: 48
Fox: 44

marth - 2nd and 3rd best moves have been nerfed.
MK - nerfed to hell.
Fox - too many changes i can't keep up with

Wario: 9 - godly
G&W: 6 - very good
Wolf: 5 - decent
Sonic: 5 - good
R.O.B.: 5 - good
Ivysaur: 4 - below average
DK: 4 - good
Toon Link: 4 - good
Lucas: 4 - below average
Ike: 4 - decent
Pit: 3 - good
Mario: 3 - good
Jigglypuff: 2 - decent
Charizard: 2 - decent
DDD: 2 - below average
PT: 1 - ???godly¿¿¿
Samus: 1 - decent
Link: 1 - decent
Ganondorf: 1 - below average

AND:
yoshi, ness, bowser. vote less. they're all pretty bad, except ness has infinte recovery now so he is un-killable @


i don't think there is a problem with balance, better than Vbrawl anyway.

edit: nice work on flaming the guy with 12 posts for having an opinion on the previous page.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

no order..

fox
falco
marth
metaknight
wario
squirtle
ganon
diddy
olimar
ivysaur

imo. cant think of others

 

[Mattnumbers]

Marth: 50
MK: 48
Fox: 44

marth - 2nd and 3rd best moves have been nerfed.
MK - nerfed to hell.
Fox - too many changes i can't keep up with

How has MK been "nerfed to hell" in any way?

 

[Zodac]

lowered weight, fair disjoint removal (3rd best kill move), slower air speed, weaker UP B (2nd best kill move), weaker and slower down smash (best kill move), nerfed tornado, 50% more ALR than the rest of the cast.

i meant from Vbrawl if you didn't understand.

 

[JCaesar]

-MK Downsmash both hitboxes KBG changed to 80 from 93, BKB changed to 30 from 40
-MK Shuttle Loop BKB 55 and KBG 83, from 90 and 60
-MK Fair outer hitbox on 1st and 2nd swipe now does nothing
-MK Tornado change Comes out .75 speed (hits frame 16 instead of 12) & 1.5x as much landing lag
-MK's whorenado now cannot change vertical height due to increased gravity

These are MK's changes taken straight from the changelog. He is not lighter than vBrawl (that change was removed a while ago), nor is he slower in the air, nor does he have more ALR than everyone else.

Everyone seems to think Marth is the best but MK is definitely Marth's worst matchup, so how could MK not be top 10?

 

[Zodac]

slower air speed.
-Character Specific Momentum Settings
Pikachu: 85%
Lucario: 75%
Lucas: 120%
D3: 70%
MK: 75%

lighter

Character Specific Gravity and Jump Power Modifications:
Grav:
0.950

ALR
MK and Samus alr is 100% (rest at 50%, falcon and link even lower)

Everyone seems to think Marth is the best but MK is definitely Marth's worst matchup, so how could MK not be top 10?

i had him 1st, not sure why marth match-up makes him auto top ten though.

 

[Deleted member]

where the hell did you get those values from? these are the values from the official 4.1 set

-Character Specific Momentum Settings
Pikachu: 85%
Lucario: 75%
Lucas: 120%
D3: 70%
MK: 75%
Sonic: 175%
ZSS: 110%
Global 92.5%

also a note here that before nearly NO momentum transferred, so all I can say is that MK got buffed LESS. also note that he equalls lucario and D3 is even lower.

grav is not weight!

weight is KB resistance, as in bowser and D3 are heavy, not as in fox is heavy. the grav values only affect fallspeeds and vertical KB restance, which is you actually read MK has compensated

Chara ID SH FH FF DGrav Grav Filler
MK 16 0.900 1.000 1.300 1.100 0.950 0

you see that? MK has a Dgrav of 1.1 making the total 1.045 (multiply), so MK actually dies less quick from the top than before.

and these are the ALR values

- Aerial Lag Reduction (ALR)
-Most characters reduced to 50%
-Captain Falcon reduced to 40%
-Lucas has 40% ALR
-Link reduced to 35%

I rest my case.

 

[shanus]

He actually dies at the same percentage as before, I tested it. That negligible of a dgrav does nothing to his in game kill %s.

Also, the lower momentum doesn't mean slow air speed. It means they had a weird value before with the momentum code where they would rocket across the screen without it, sometimes making it barely usable as a character. For example, sonics fair couldn't link if he had full ground to air speed, same with lucario fair strings with his momentum at 100% (its absurd)

 

[Cirno]

-MK Downsmash both hitboxes KBG changed to 80 from 93, BKB changed to 30 from 40
-MK Shuttle Loop BKB 55 and KBG 83, from 90 and 60
-MK Fair outer hitbox on 1st and 2nd swipe now does nothing
-MK Tornado change Comes out .75 speed (hits frame 16 instead of 12) & 1.5x as much landing lag
-MK's whorenado now cannot change vertical height due to increased gravity

These are MK's changes taken straight from the changelog. He is not lighter than vBrawl (that change was removed a while ago), nor is he slower in the air, nor does he have more ALR than everyone else.

Everyone seems to think Marth is the best but MK is definitely Marth's worst matchup, so how could MK not be top 10?

MK definitely has the attributes to be top ten ( multiple jumps, high priority, disjointed hitboxes, ect.) but the best characters in fighting games always revolve around how easily you can be effective (SSBB: DDD chain grabs, SF4: Sagat Tiger Shot, SC3: Cervantes grab combos).

With MK's nerfs he is still a shotgun, deadly in everyway as Shiek is in vBrawl, but the ease in which you are able to use it is like putting him in a sniper position. MK's feeling a lot like Marth did in vBrawl now, he has pretty good matchups and is overall a good character but fails in comparison to Marth. Given new weaknesses to add on to ones he already had, and then taking away components to remove weakness( no more lagless tornado due to increased gravity) can make the effort to be as effective as MK can be seem pointless and thus he doesn't make it onto all tier list opinions.

As far as MK being Marth's worst matchup I'd agree, but I wonder what it is now? Marth was a character in vBrawl winning more tournaments solo than our current 3rd tier character who also has a 50:50 matchup compared to his 65:35 against MK. That alone makes me feel that 65:35 mu for vBrawl is inaccurate. Taking that information over to Brawl+ I have to wonder if Marth's worst mu (MK) is merely a 50:50. In a game that is moving towards a balance system similar to Melee (characters you are advantaged against can mess you up just as badly as you can mess them up--Fox v Peach) tier lists are going to vary with characters of difficulty very often.

In the same sense I feel DK is very good when played well but compared to the effort needed to be safe as such a huge target compared to a character like Squirtle who can **** just as hard and be safer, DK falls on my personal tierlist.

I personally feel that any character with a disjoint should always be in the top ten(unless a large majority have them-- then it comes down to most abusable), but I can understand not seeing MK on some peoples lists.

Still building my own but I can see Marth is clearly the best. In order so far, I see it as:

1 Marth
2 Dancing Blade
3 Wario

tl;dr

Top ten tierlist is gonna differentiate with characters who are great but have a risk/reward dilema compared to others.

Oh, and is that list of changes recent?

My version of Brawl+ has some other changes I noticed that affect MK aswell:

No auto ledge snap
Up air's IASA frames have been brought waaaay up like comparable to Marth's in it's usefulness

I just hope Roy can be made seperate from Marth somehow. As a Marth clone he'll obviously be top ten, but I really like the original attribute he has like the way the tip works.
Roy's r boy.

Keep up the good work on the game though guys. Being able to play this with people who don't like vBrawl ftw.

 

[Cytrs]

yoshi isn't bad. hes a beast. all he needs is some of the bair hurtboxes moved (which cant be done as of now) to better bair's priority.

 

[cobaltblue]

Go for it. While this isn't 100% accurate, or a tier list, it's a very good way to show the collective opinion of the community on how good each character is. I wouldn't suggest this as a way to show which characters would need buffing, but instead an idea of some characters that could use a few nerfs. Because we're not voting on which characters are bad, just which ones are the best.

Popularity contests would be a horrible way to show which characters might need nerfs. The fact we have no idea of the skill level of everyone here or the level of who they play agaisnt just adds to it. For example my list would have MK pretty low simply because no one near me plays a good MK and my sonic dominates everyone I face.

The best way is still tournaments and looking at characters who are just a no **** Sherlock good/bad like MK and Bowser.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Still building my own but I can see Marth is clearly the best. In order so far, I see it as:

1 Marth
2 Dancing Blade
3 Wario

Are you using the 4.1 codeset? Because Dancing Blade was nerfed a lot. The final down hit isn't even safe on hit anymore.

 

[slimpyman]

YOSHI!!!

hes broken and number 1

 

[Plum]

Everyone seems to think Marth is the best but MK is definitely Marth's worst matchup, so how could MK not be top 10?

i had him 1st, not sure why marth match-up makes him auto top ten though.

Matchups can play a HUGE role in your tier placement.
My favorite example in both vBrawl and Brawl+ is G&W. (Yeah, it is because he is my vBrawl main )

There is no doubt that G&W is a powerhouse, and he has the ability to dominate a majority of the cast with his wall of priority and disjointed range. Couple that with his ability to punish mistakes so well for some stupidly early kills, and G&W looks like he should be one of the best characters.

Then you have to look at his matchups. His only problem matchups come from other top ranked characters. G&W may have more favorable matchups then other top ranked characters (in vBrawl for instance he is considered a soft counter, as in at least 6:4 against 27 characters, going even with another 5, and having 4 disadvantage matchups) but when his hard matchups are from other well represented and top ranked characters it creates problems for him.

If things were based purely on matchups G&W would be ranked a few, if not several places higher than he is (iirc, there was a matchup tier list for vBrawl not too long ago that had him ranked second or third based on his matchup numbers alone). While matchups is one way to rank characters, it is flawed because it doesn't consider in other factors that determine success. G&W is hurt by those other factors, and in a tier list that considers all of those factors rather just matchups it shows.

So as far as MK goes, even if he had one good matchup against Marth and then the rest were even or slight disadvantage he would still be ranked much higher then somebody who was in the same situation but instead having a good matchup against Bowser.

Let's say there were two versions of MK available to play. Each would have the exact same matchup numbers in every single matchup except two. MK 1 goes 65:35 against Marth, and 50:50 against Bowser. MK 2 goes 65:35 against Bowser and 50:50 against Marth. Which one would do you think people will play?

By being the best counter in the game for the best character in the game MK is instantly going to be a fairly good character; factor in all of MK's other traits and there is no doubt he is the second best in my opinion.

If MK could still kill onstage then I would go and put him in first place myself.

 

[JCaesar]

Well said Plum.

It's just a fact that as long as some characters are better (and better represented in tourney) than others, some matchups matter significantly more than others.