You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

[Robert of Normandy]

The one true great character in Awakening is Sully.

And the sad thing is that Sully's shtick is more or less copied From Cecille in FE3/12.

 

[Jaedrik]

anna pillow

Excuse me while I clean up my explosive nosebleed. . . .
No, if I had that, I don't think I'd be able to sleep easy, I'd sleep hard.
lolwut uh nothing

 

[Croph]

It's a shame, because I do admire the attempt at making the characters more quirky. A character with some sort of quirk is not an inherent problem, in fact it can help give a character an identity. But you have to make sure that one characteristic is not the sole thing going for them, otherwise you'll create a one dimensional character. You also got to make sure the characteristic is not obnoxious or uncomfortable, because if it's either it will create a negative response. Hence, why in my opinion I am not keen on certain characters like Tharja.

I think the only time you could get away with being a bit one dimensional if it compliments a ridiculous premise and feel, for example The Wonderful 101 exploits many cliches to ridiculous levels that actually crosses the line twice and becomes entertaining.

I agree. This kinda reminds me of something I wrote on character development, except you could probably replace "gender" with "quirk":

Gender, sexual orientation, race, etc., are characteristics. However, they should not be THE defining characteristic, especially creating well-written characters (but these aspects can certainly help with development/depth). Unfortunately, there are exceptions. I've seen too many cases where these characteristics ARE taken as the defining trait, and most of them lead to stereotypes (or perhaps the [flat] "token" [insert gender/sexual orientation/race/etc. here]... but I won't get into that). I like to remember characters for their good character development, growth, how well I could empathize with them, and especially learning morals and lessons from them regardless if my own gender, sexuality, etc. is different... among other things. But I don't want to make a huge argument on what makes a "well-written" character -- I think people have different definitions anyway...

With a big cast in Awakening, I wasn't expecting everyone to be super complex and deep. However, I found that some of these characters take the quirks/archetypes associated with them to an extreme, to a point where I'm almost irritated.

I'm going to pick on Kellam for a bit. The only thing I remember about is guy is that he wears big ass armour and nobody can see him. He's like totally ignored. And this gimmick happens in a lot of supports. I don't remember if he has good character development, nor do I know if he has a personality outside of his quirk. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but for me this quirk overshadows everything about him.

I like to compare Kellam to Canada from the anime Hetalia. Canada's in a similar boat where sometimes people cannot see him, like he's almost a ghost. And Canada doesn't appreciate when that happens (this is okay in the context of Hetalia though, as stereotypes are played up. But that's not what I'm getting at). For the most part, this quirk isn't turned up to 11 or at least there are other positive (and negative) characteristics I remember Canada by. Heck, and some of them I could take to heart and learn something.

Though, Canada's far from my fave character, for the fact that he doesn't get a lot of screen time. Russia all the way, da? ^ J ^

I think I've mentioned Libra undergoes some character development/growth. And I wasn't expecting Libra to be this deep. If there's any Awakening characters I could relate to, I'd probably be Libra and Olivia/Inigo (ignoring his flirty personality). And I don't think I've ever related this much to any other FE characters, it's kinda scary, but I guess it could be a good thing. I might expand on this later, but right now I'm feeling under the weather and need to rest.

 

[DraginHikari]

Character Creation and character development can be complicated because there are several ways to go about it and it sometimes can produce very different results. The two most common method is to try to make realistic character or utilizing more simplified tropes that bounce easily off of each other. There are clear advantages and disadvantages to both. The realistic approach tends to more often then not create deeper and something we can understand on a human level once we've been able to witness the characters actions. The danger in that though is they will not be initially interesting characters at first as their interactions with other characters may not always be clear and directly defined, sometimes making it possible for it to go clear over the head of a more general audience. While the Trope method, though cheap does make it easier for people to grasp what a character is and what actions they may take and how they interact with people of different tropes, the problem is of course that often times trope characters get trapped in their trope and become less interesting by the end of the story because you pretty much know what action they are going to take in the end.

The reality is you can make good stories with either of those types of characters. I like Awakening for what it was, honesty I don't think the character tropes were the problem more so in how they were utilized. They were obviously trying for something that could be more generally understood due to the state of Fire Emblem at the time of it's development but didn't really know how to expand on them beyond their tropes in a way that made sense all the way through.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

I also felt Chrom didn't face as much character development as Ike. In PoR, you could really see that Ike is new to being a leader, and grows gradually to become Tellius' greatest hero. When Ike's father, Greil died, it wasn't like Emmeryn where they mourned her for a chapter and they were over it, it stuck with him through the entire game, wondering if he could be as great as leader as him. Some, like Shinon and Gatrie felt he wouldn't make a good leader and even left the occupation as a mercenary.

Chrom when he became the king, he never really faced a problem like Ike, it just didn't seem like it would be realistic at all. He had no trouble being a leader, which baffled me, and they hardly touch on Emmeryn's death after the chapter they mourned her. They just didn't make you care for Chrom because they never gave him a struggle.

 

[DraginHikari]

Well that's mostly due to the simplification of storyline line then anything. Chrom was already leading the Shepherds prior to the start of the game so he was already playing a leadership role from the being of the game and most that were following him were still going to continue to follow. His issues with his sister was more in relation to his personality contrast to his sister's pacifism and the fact that he couldn't directly follow that path. It had a lot less to do with him feeling inadequate, its just wasn't expressed very well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

To be honest, I couldn't really get attached to any of the characters in the Fire Emblem games I've played aside from Awakening and PoR. Everybody was just kind of there for the most part. In the first GBA one, Lyn was basically the only character that stood out to me and I didn't really care about any of the characters in Sacred Stones or Shadow Dragon. As everyone has said, PoR's cast was great because it felt like a big family and that Ike was bringing together people that would have nothing to do with each other otherwise. In Awakening, characters just came together like in past games. *A wild Henry appeared* "Here, have a Cherche; enjoy."

As I mentioned before, I liked the support conversations in this game a lot more than the others and I really enjoyed the new pair up system. Even though it kind of weirded me out at first, I ended up enjoying the future kids aspect of the game because it showed a byproduct of the relationships in the first generation. People may disagree with me on this but I felt like the pair system made the characters feel more like part of an active team in game than in past games. For example, when it was time for the final battle, I had 8 couples and I felt a real sense of finality and significance in the chapter because of the support relationships all these characters had built through out the game. Perhaps I'm biased because I actually like all the romantic mushy stuff and liked that some of the couples I had were together for most of the game so their relationships actually meant something to me despite having virtually no impact on the story. Also, watching them on Youtube, I d'aww at almost all the confessions, no matter how cheesy they are...

Spoiler

I literally cried the first time I saw Sumia's. Isn't that what everyone is looking for when it comes to love? Cliche as all hell but it gave me such feels that I had to pause the video and give myself a few minutes to compose myself. My girlfriend still makes fun of me for it but she appreciates the sentiment... Cordelia, Lucina, and Cynthia's really pull at my heartstrings for some odd reason too.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Anyway, one question to bring up.

Will people still be satisfied with Chrom if he's heavily based on Marth or Ike?

 

[DraginHikari]

The funny thing is when I first saw Chrom I though he kind of a blend of Marth and Ike in that regards. He could probably use either of their styles and not have it look entirely out of place.

 

[Jaedrik]

I think I've mentioned Libra undergoes some character development/growth. And I wasn't expecting Libra to be this deep. If there's any Awakening characters I could relate to, I'd probably be Libra and Olivia/Inigo (ignoring his flirty personality). And I don't think I've ever related this much to any other FE characters, it's kinda scary, but I guess it could be a good thing. I might expand on this later, but right now I'm feeling under the weather and need to rest.

You have, and I agree entirely, he was one of the best characters. Same thing with Henry. I'm sure there's another that slips my mind.
Oh dear, get well soon!

Perhaps I'm biased because I actually like all the romantic mushy stuff and liked that some of the couples I had were together for most of the game so their relationships actually meant something to me despite having virtually no impact on the story. Also, watching them on Youtube, I d'aww at almost all the confessions, no matter how cheesy they are...

I feel you, mang, I feel you, I love that romance.

 

[Croph]

What do you mean by "heavily based on Marth or Ike"?

You can make the argument that the only newcomer that was a clone in Brawl was Toon Link, but he's an exception because of Sakurai's "Toon Link must have the same moves of Link" rule. At worst, I think Chrom will be a Lucas/Wolf. Unless there like time restrains and they have to quickly finish Chrom or something... I dunno. But I'm not sure how I'll feel if he's a Lucas/Wolf. I really want Chrom to be as unique as possible, but I feel I bit uncertain because of his similarities/being based on Marth and Ike. And I know I should look past this, but I'm really sceptical when it comes with these things.

You have, and I agree entirely, he was one of the best characters. Same thing with Henry. I'm sure there's another that slips my mind.
Oh dear, get well soon!

Yeah, I'm sure there's some others that have good development. I'd love to find some more.

But thanks for the concern!

 

[Fatmanonice]

The funny thing is when I first saw Chrom I though he kind of a blend of Marth and Ike in that regards. He could probably use either of their styles and not have it look entirely out of place.

This. I've always seen Chrom as a mash up of those two not only in character design but also in personality. I think it's inevitable that he'll share some characteristics of Marth and Ike kind of like how Wolf has characteristics of both Fox and Falco.

 

[FlareHabanero]

What do you mean by "heavily based on Marth or Ike"?

The scenario where Chrom shares many of his moves with either Marth or Ike.

Basically I am saying this because currently Chrom is a (bizarrely) popular character, and people are (bizarrely) absolutely 100% confident that the character will be unique and cannot have relation to another character. But if the latter statement is defied, it will reveal the truth as to whether or not the character will still be cherished. People hate clones, and it can easily break a character's reception. If Chrom fails to bring anything new to the table, the opposite scenario will happen where people will moan that the character is a disgusting eyesore and should be scrapped.

I asked the original question to see if people will still like Chrom for being on the roster regardless if the scenario does happen.

 

[Fatmanonice]

As long as Chrom doesn't outright replace Ike, I don't care.

 

[Mirron]

See, I feel like an oddball because so far I'm loving most of the cast. The comic even helped me like a couple of characters I was relatively neutral on. *shrugs* I liked Path of Radiance as well, but the cast was smaller, and they didn't have the relationship thing in it. I imagine that if they had, it would have warped the supports some, which is what happened with Awakening.

 

[Niko Mar]

The scenario where Chrom shares many of his moves with either Marth or Ike.

Basically I am saying this because currently Chrom is a (bizarrely) popular character, and people are (bizarrely) absolutely 100% confident that the character will be unique and cannot have relation to another character. But if the latter statement is defied, it will reveal the truth as to whether or not the character will still be cherished. People hate clones, and it can easily break a character's reception. If Chrom fails to bring anything new to the table, the opposite scenario will happen where people will moan that the character is a disgusting eyesore and should be scrapped.

I asked the original question to see if people will still like Chrom for being on the roster regardless if the scenario does happen.

Eh, I can live with it. I would hope Sakurai would only add characters that bring uniqueness to the table (or look for unique aspects to expand within the characters), but if Chrom was less of a priority and only turned out as a semi-clone that'd be fine.

People seem to forget that Roy was even a blatant clone, but look how popular he is.

 

[lightdasher]

-peeks head in this topic-

-timidly walks to a corner-

Robin, Lyn, Shiida, Alm, Celica, Hector, Ephriam, Seth, EIrika, Leif, Sigurd or Eliwood for Smash? Regardless of "popularity" or "likeability of getting in Smash"

 

[FlareHabanero]

People seem to forget that Roy was even a blatant clone, but look how popular he is.

Solely going by Super Smash Bros., Roy wasn't favored by people until the realization that Roy failed to appear in Brawl. Before that, he was a niche character that was heavily overshadowed by Marth.

 

[Mirron]

Lightdasher, you listed a few I'd like to see in this game. Noteworthy is Eliwood, since he isn't very popular (which is a shame).

 

[Hong]

I like to compare Kellam to Canada from the anime Hetalia. Canada's in a similar boat where sometimes people cannot see him, like he's almost a ghost. And Canada doesn't appreciate when that happens (this is okay in the context of Hetalia though, as stereotypes are played up. But that's not what I'm getting at). For the most part, this quirk isn't turned up to 11 or at least there are other positive (and negative) characteristics I remember Canada by. Heck, and some of them I could take to heart and learn something.

Though, Canada's far from my fave character, for the fact that he doesn't get a lot of screen time. Russia all the way, da? ^ J ^

Ah, and now you refer to Hetalia. Truly, we are destined for one another.

-peeks head in this topic-

-timidly walks to a corner-

Robin, Lyn, Shiida, Alm, Celica, Hector, Ephriam, Seth, EIrika, Leif, Sigurd or Eliwood for Smash? Regardless of "popularity" or "likeability of getting in Smash"

From those, I'll order five:

Robin
Celica
Eirika
Alm
Shiida

I think Eliwood would make a great weapon. You can pick him up and swing him like a bat, or opt to throw him as the need arises.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think Eliwood would make a great weapon. You can pick him up and swing him like a bat, or opt to throw him as the need arises.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

 

[Mirron]

Ooh, close up of Ike and Eliwood, yay. On an unrelated note, if you had to pick a character from each game, who would you pick? You can't pick the same character twice. For inclusion in Smash, that is. I'm curious what answers we'll see.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Ooh, close up of Ike and Eliwood, yay. On an unrelated note, if you had to pick a character from each game, who would you pick? You can't pick the same character twice. For inclusion in Smash, that is. I'm curious what answers we'll see.

1-Marth
2-Celica (I don't know any of the regular units just the lords, never played 2, tbh)
3-Tiki
4-Sigurd
5-Leif
6-Lilina Roy
7-Nino Lyn
8-Ephraim
9- PoR Ike is best Ike
10- Nephenee
Do 11 and 12 count? I'm guessing they do.
11-Caeda
12- My Unit is better than Robin
13- Lucina

 

[Shotguner159]

Hardin
Alm
Marth
Seliph
Leif
Marcus
Hector
Erika
Mist
Micaiah
Shiida
Tiki
Lucina

 

[lightdasher]

Are we assuming Marth or Ike is already in the game? I'll assume not

1. Marth
2. Celica
3. Tiki
4. Cuan
5. Leif
6. I would say Sue just because she's one of my favs, but I'm sure Lillina or Wendy would make for a better moveset
7. Lyn
8. Eirika
9. Ike I suppose....
10. Micaiah
11. Shiida
12. pffffffff.....errrr......Minerva?
13. Robin

 

[Deleted member]

A Chrom & Lucina duo ?
It would be beyond boring, if you ask me (no offense jaytalks).

Lucina & Male Robin as alternative skin for Chrom and Female Robin, and it's done.

~ Opinion-revising time ! ~

If done well, a Chrom/Lucina duo inspired by both PKMN Trainer, IC and Rosalina/Luma wouldn't be that bad IMO.

I still much prefer that it could be a Chrom/Robin duo, but at last, I wouldn't mind that much if Chrom/Lucina come instead, and Robin coming by his/her own.


Another questions for the much deeper fans that regularly watch this thread :
Do you think Fire Emblem is worthy to have 4 slots or is it too soon yet ?

For me, the ideal would be :

- Marth, the original Lord and "poster-guy" of the franchise.
- Ike, the most original Lord (is a Ranger at first), is considered as the face of the international releasing of Fire Emblem, uses a 2-handed sword, Ragnell, and is the 2nd most recurrent Lord.
- Chrom/Lucina, "poster-guys" of the most popular title of the franchise, would also represent the Dual Support system.
- Robin, the other and true hero of Awakening, would represent the second most-important class of Fire Emblem (the Tactician), would be the 'Krystal' of Fire Emblem in terms of gameplay potential.

I think this is the ideal, but also would be a bit too much.

 

[lightdasher]

Considered the face of international releasing to who? If you ask me that goes to Eirka or Lyn. Ike's just popular because he's in Smash, just like Roy.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Considered the face of international releasing to who? If you ask me that goes to Eirka or Lyn. Ike's just popular because he's in Smash, just like Roy.

Ike's popular only because of Smash, huh? Then explain why he got a sequel even before Brawl came out. He's a bigger face for the international lords mostly because Lyn while popular isn't the true lord of her game. Eirika has to share her lord status with Ephraim, and imo nothing special. and.. yes i played PoR before Brawl.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Considered the face of international releasing to who? If you ask me that goes to Eirka or Lyn. Ike's just popular because he's in Smash, just like Roy.

Ike is a good Lord, but I can't dispute this. The reason I played PoR, or any FE game at all was Brawl.

Yes, if anyone is the face of Western FE, it's Lyn.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Lyn while popular isn't the true lord of her game.

Considering the FE community aspires to actively erase the collective memory of He Who Must Not Be Deployed Yet We Are Forced To Do So, I don't think this argument works against Lyn much.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Considering the FE community aspires to actively erase the collective memory of He Who Must Not Be Deployed Yet We Are Forced To Do So, I don't think this argument works against Lyn much.

What's with you and making Eliwood depressed, jeez Lordling

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He must pay for birthing the atrocity that haunts my waking hours and my nightmares.

 

[Croph]

The scenario where Chrom shares many of his moves with either Marth or Ike.

Basically I am saying this because currently Chrom is a (bizarrely) popular character, and people are (bizarrely) absolutely 100% confident that the character will be unique and cannot have relation to another character. But if the latter statement is defied, it will reveal the truth as to whether or not the character will still be cherished. People hate clones, and it can easily break a character's reception. If Chrom fails to bring anything new to the table, the opposite scenario will happen where people will moan that the character is a disgusting eyesore and should be scrapped.

I asked the original question to see if people will still like Chrom for being on the roster regardless if the scenario does happen.

Okay, I think I understand.

But like I said before, judging by Brawl, I don't think Chrom will be a Toon Link, but there is still a possibility of him not being 100% unique (him having similar characteristics to Marth and Ike makes me sceptical). In the event that Chrom does share similar moves to Ike/Marth, I think I'd feel a little disappointed, and there may be some Chrom supporters who might feel the same. Unlike the scenario with Roy, I don't think Chrom will be a late addition (if there happens to be time restrains or whatever, I think he'll be a Wolf/Lucas at worst).

I think any FE newcomer will become popular, but if said newcomer doesn't live up to some people's expectations or doesn't offer anything new, then there is the possibility of people disliking the character. I don't know though... did people dislike Wolf for having similar specials to Fox? And the same deal with Lucas?

 

[Mirron]

I think that Fire Emblem is deserving of four slots potentially, or at least has the potential to utilize them better than most other series (more so than Zelda does, regardless of Toon Link's importance to the series). Though if they were to do that then I'd want Roy to return. Not for any particular liking or not of him, but because I dislike cutting characters, and it allows us to represent the Elibe games.

And everyone needs to stop picking on Eliwood.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wolf is the model of what a semi-clone of a character should be.

Hell he's barely a semi-clone.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

And everyone needs to stop picking on Eliwood.

I wish every uninitiated braindead Smash fan would stop calling Lucina genderbent Marth

But that ain't gonna happen either

 

[Hong]

Would anyone really care about Roy if he had not appeared in Smash Bros? Ike, I can understand. He was an awesome character and a pleasure to have around in Smash Bros.

But Roy? I don't buy it.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Wolf is the model of what a semi-clone of a character should be.

Hell he's barely a semi-clone.

Everyone never bothers to mention Lucas who's just like Wolf

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Would anyone really care about Roy if he had not appeared in Smash Bros? Ike, I can understand. He was an awesome character and a pleasure to have around in Smash Bros.

But Roy? I don't buy it.

I will avoid responding to this because I'm lecture and do not want to be reduced to a rabid growling maniac frothing at the mouth.

Take it away, folks.