You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

[Fire Emblemier]

Would anyone really care about Roy if he had not appeared in Smash Bros? Ike, I can understand. He was an awesome character and a pleasure to have around in Smash Bros.

But Roy? I don't buy it.

Well if Ike was never in SSBB I would be rooting for him Smash4, tbh.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Everyone never bothers to mention Lucas who's just like Wolf

That is mostly because I do not like how sucky Brawl Lucas is but I love him in P:M. He is however so changed in P:M that he's a totally different animal, and while that's great it's not directly offical Smash's doing.

 

[Mirron]

I'm irked by such accusations of Lucina as well. Especially as it led to the tedious month's leading up to Marth's reveal of how he would be cut and replaced with Lucina.

And if Roy wasn't in Melee I wouldn't pick him to represent Elibe. But if Roy wasn't in Elibe I honestly don't think anything pre-Tellius would have a good shot of being in Smash outside of Marth.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Everyone never bothers to mention Lucas who's just like Wolf

That is mostly because I do not like how sucky Brawl Lucas is but I love him in P:M. He is however so changed in P:M that he's a totally different animal, and while that's great it's not directly offical Smash's doing.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

That is mostly because I do not like how sucky Brawl Lucas is but I love him in P:M. He is however so changed in P:M that he's a totally different animal, and while that's great it's not directly offical Smash's doing.

I actually prefer Brawl Lucas over PM, he just feels to different for me in PM. Yet, Ness is great for me in PM which is strange.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Would anyone really care about Roy if he had not appeared in Smash Bros? Ike, I can understand. He was an awesome character and a pleasure to have around in Smash Bros.

But Roy? I don't buy it.

Would anyone care about Captain Falcon, or the ICs, or ROB had they not been in Smash? The argument that Roy's popularity 'shouldn't count' because it originates from his appearance in Melee is silly on its face.

 

[Mirron]

Yeah, Project M Lucas is horrible for me. They changed him too much and I don't like it. I know why they did, but it caused me to drop Lucas as a whole, which is a disappointment. I much prefer him in Brawl.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I actually prefer Brawl Lucas over PM, he just feels to different for me in PM. Yet, Ness is great for me in PM which is strange.

Lucas is someone I want to main ... badly ... but I can't wrap my mind around his physics. The thing is he is as much of a button workout as a good Foxcolf and can get nearly as good, if not better results. I've started practicing with Fox everyday so I can warm up to Lucas; this is doing wonders for my Ike, too.

You probably don't like Luke in P:M because he became MUCH more offensive and button-mashy. This is kind of what I want in a main, though, so.

 

[Hong]

Would anyone care about Captain Falcon, or the ICs, or ROB had they not been in Smash? The argument that Roy's popularity 'shouldn't count' because it originates from his appearance in Melee is silly on its face.

I don't think that's what I was implying at all.

That said, I think plenty of people would be asking for Captain Falcon if he was not in the first or second game, actually. As for IC or ROB, we would not have been lacking anything good for the game had they not appeared.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Would anyone care about Captain Falcon, or the ICs, or ROB had they not been in Smash? The argument that Roy's popularity 'shouldn't count' because it originates from his appearance in Melee is silly on its face.

I still don't care about ROB or ICs. Competitive players hate the ICs. I never thought ROB was that popular tbf. I dunno if people will cry if he's cut.

The Exalted Captain would have found a way, for he is our salvation.

 

[Mirron]

Have to agree with Hong on Captain Falcon, though I'd extent it to Ice Climbers (assuming we got another retro rep in their place in Melee). We're seeing a bunch of people being requested from retro games because of the tradition, I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with the Ice Climbers gimmick (assuming they aren't in already). And Captain Falcon would probably be requested as well.

And I hate cuts of any sort, so I would be disappointed if either of them were cut.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Additionally, Shin, you'll notice the series you mention doesn't have a lot of options for representation.

FE is a completely different beast; one character making the cut means six others who didn't. It infuriates that Roy is still deemed worthy of inclusion.

 

[DraginHikari]

I'm irked by such accusations of Lucina as well. Especially as it led to the tedious month's leading up to Marth's reveal of how he would be cut and replaced with Lucina.

And if Roy wasn't in Melee I wouldn't pick him to represent Elibe. But if Roy wasn't in Elibe I honestly don't think anything pre-Tellius would have a good shot of being in Smash outside of Marth.

To be fair much of the Lucina-Marth argument was more of a discussion on whether or not Marth in and of himself had enough staying power to always be the absolute choice in the series. I don't know alot of people who assumed Marth was not returning at all, even in the original thread where that was taking place most people still gave Marth a pretty high chance of returning.

 

[Hong]

Have to agree with Hong on Captain Falcon, though I'd extent it to Ice Climbers (assuming we got another retro rep in their place in Melee). We're seeing a bunch of people being requested from retro games because of the tradition, I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with the Ice Climbers gimmick (assuming they aren't in already). And Captain Falcon would probably be requested as well.

And I hate cuts of any sort, so I would be disappointed if either of them were cut.

The fans would probably come up with a better moveset for the Ice Climbers.

As it stands, Ice Climbers being two characters makes them unique, but is not actually a fighting style for the majority end user. It scarcely changes how you play them. The only time it does is for advanced users, who desynchronize them and get infinite combos, something that's NEVER good. I can think of many ways they could be redesigned solo or as a team to actually be interesting.

 

[Mirron]

Eh, I'm on GFAQs quite a bit, where the concept of Marth just not showing up at all seemed not only plausible, but far more likely at times. Which honestly felt immensely... short-sighted to me. *shrugs*

And I imagine part of the Ice Climbers issue is when they joined (Melee). Kirby could have a vastly more interesting moveset, but it wasn't until Brawl that more oddball movesets were being made.

 

[DraginHikari]

Eh, I'm on GFAQs quite a bit, where the concept of Marth just not showing up at all seemed not only plausible, but far more likely at times. Which honestly felt immensely... short-sighted to me. *shrugs*

And I imagine part of the Ice Climbers issue is when they joined (Melee). Kirby could have a vastly more interesting moveset, but it wasn't until Brawl that more oddball movesets were being made.

On Gamefaqs? I can definitely see that, I don't really look at the discussions there so I can't speak much for them, I was mostly referencing the discussion as it took place here.

 

[Hong]

What I gather from Roy is a nobility complex.

Those that are born in a noble home are nobles.
Those that are born commoners are commoners, and need to become ennobled to become more.

Bringing back Roy and having him worth the development time to make something that is not a clone, even Luigified, isn't free. There are many characters even from outside the franchise who could make better use of that time if we want to make better use of our money if we are going to make something completely new. I hate the idea of bringing him back because he was literally squeezed into Melee. It's completely different for a character like Mewtwo who came into the fight on their own and don't need to be drastically altered to function.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Would anyone really care about Roy if he had not appeared in Smash Bros? Ike, I can understand. He was an awesome character and a pleasure to have around in Smash Bros.

But Roy? I don't buy it.

Roy is more so a case of Americans Hate Tingle.

He's more cherished in Japanese markets due to being the main star of Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade, which is treasured due to it revitalizing the franchise and is one of the highest rated games.

Meanwhile in other regions, the reception is different due to people disliking Roy for being a pain to raise.

 

[Hong]

Roy is more so a case of Americans Hate Tingle.

He's more cherished in Japanese markets due to being the main star of Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade, which is treasured due to it revitalizing the franchise and is one of the highest rated games.

Meanwhile in other regions, the reception is different due to people disliking Roy for being a pain to raise.

Not sure if the second camp even matters much when maybe 100k? people outside of Japan have played Binding Blade, including translated ROM image.

In any event, looks like we better start worshiping Awakening, then.

 

[Mirron]

Honestly, I don't think people hate Roy, whether Japan or America. I see plenty of requests to bring him back. From people who have played Fire Emblem, the issue seems to be mostly that there are more interesting options available, and that they didn't like how he was executed in Smash. If he were in this game, I'd hope he'd be decloned majorly.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I hate Roy

Probably enough to make up for everyone that doesn't

 

[Robert of Normandy]

That said, I think plenty of people would be asking for Captain Falcon if he was not in the first or second game, actually.

I doubt this. Given the state F-Zero has been in, do you really think that any F-Zero character would have THAT much support?

Additionally, I should point out that Falcon's hammy personality in Smash, which is what endears him to fans, does not originate from the F-Zero games. In the games, he's much more stoic and reserved(to the point of being labelled "comically serious" by some in GX). On his own merits alone, I doubt he'd have much of a following had he not been included in Smash 64.

Additionally, Shin, you'll notice the series you mention doesn't have a lot of options for representation. FE is a completely different beast; one character making the cut means six others who didn't.

Fair enough.

It infuriates that Roy is still deemed worthy of inclusion.

I could say this about most of the plausible FE newcomers. As much as most of us here would probably like to see someone like Robin, Anna, or Tiki, if we're being honest our "plausible" newwcomers are probably Roy and Chrom, neither of whom strike me as particularly interesting(though if I had to pick one, I'd rather take Roy).

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Edit: Double post

 

[Hong]

I hate Roy

Probably enough to make up for everyone that doesn't

I actually liked Binding Blade and Roy, myself. Not my favourite lord by any means, but he's a good kid. He is in the wash of bland lords that thrived up until Blazing Sword.

That said, that is also why he is one of the last lords I would want in Smash Bros.

I doubt this. Given the state F-Zero has been in, do you really think that any F-Zero character would have THAT much support?

Additionally, I should point out that Falcon's hammy personality in Smash, which is what endears him to fans, does not originate from the F-Zero games. In the games, he's much more stoic and reserved(to the point of being labelled "comically serious" by some in GX). On his own merits alone, I doubt he'd have much of a following had he not been included in Smash 64.

I never intended to say he would have as much love as he does now. That said, I think it would exceed many of the retro one-offs like Mach Rider.

At the very least, I could only imagine Captain Falcon being a fast character. Doubt many fans would come up with a super sentai motif for him like Sakurai did, though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

One of the biggest issues with Roy though is that he is by and far the most lackluster unit you'll use. FE6 already has many mechanical issues: Thrones too strong, maps too large [this is somewhat subjective though] and weapons too inaccurate, coupled with wave after wave of sucky units with terrible bases and growths. You can cobble together a passable team, certainly, but you really have to struggle until the later chapters where Percival and Minerva descend from the Heavens to deliver thee from suffering until the good units roll in. Roy got saddled with super mediocre stats and growths; perhaps he can eventually become adequate but he'll never be an MVP like Ike, Lyn, or Hector or fulfill a certain role well (Marth in Shadow Dragon has a Rapier that unlike previous games can be forged, and thus makes a wonderful anti-cavalry unit as well as situational boss slayer, given gold). He must be babied, saddlebagged, carried across maps and eternally holding you back (even with his super late promotion) and that very heavily pisses me off. Roy is an albatross, foisted upon you in every map and given no way to redeem himself by the game's mechanics. Binding Blade probably revitalized the series because it introduced the FE GBA mechanics that have endured and been built upon in all future games, but most people and I personally cannot ignore all the huge flaws that bog it down, especially now that I have the future installments and far more stellar Lord characters to compare it to. And for all these reasons I will support sodding Walhart before I warm up to the idea of Roy in a Smash game. You can tell how ecstatic i was when I heard P:M brought him back instead of letting it die.

There are just so many more deserving candidates.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Also I will defiantly refuse to acknowledge that Lucina won't be in the new game until she is revealed to be a sticker.

But until then I spit in the face of Chroy and wait for LucIke to be revealed.

 

[Hong]

I like you, Lordling. ^~^

As far as matters are concerned with Roy as a unit, I kind of like that.

I liked the classic lord. Someone who is, to no surprise, royalty. Not supposed to be capable fighters. Someone who had their use, but needed protection and their team. The last we have seen like that is Micaiah. I like the added challenge of having no choice but to use them. Then again, if they never changed, we would have never had Ike, at least as a lead. I wonder what Path of Radiance would have been like if we were in the shoes of Elincia from the beginning.

Which is not to say I like having ****ty characters forced upon me. What bothers me a lot about a few of the games is having tons of units thrown to me in a chapter that I don't want to use. That is unacceptable.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

One of the biggest issues with Roy though is that he is by and far the most lackluster unit you'll use. FE6 already has many mechanical issues: Thrones too strong, maps too large [this is somewhat subjective though] and weapons too inaccurate, coupled with wave after wave of sucky units with terrible bases and growths. You can cobble together a passable team, certainly, but you really have to struggle until the later chapters where Percival and Minerva descend from the Heavens to deliver thee from suffering until the good units roll in. Roy got saddled with super mediocre stats and growths; perhaps he can eventually become adequate but he'll never be an MVP like Ike, Lyn, or Hector or fulfill a certain role well (Marth in Shadow Dragon has a Rapier that unlike previous games can be forged, and thus makes a wonderful anti-cavalry unit as well as situational boss slayer, given gold). He must be babied, saddlebagged, carried across maps and eternally holding you back (even with his super late promotion) and that very heavily pisses me off. Roy is an albatross, foisted upon you in every map and given no way to redeem himself by the game's mechanics. Binding Blade probably revitalized the series because it introduced the FE GBA mechanics that have endured and been built upon in all future games, but most people and I personally cannot ignore all the huge flaws that bog it down, especially now that I have the future installments and far more stellar Lord characters to compare it to. And for all these reasons I will support sodding Walhart before I warm up to the idea of Roy in a Smash game. You can tell how ecstatic i was when I heard P:M brought him back instead of letting it die.

There are just so many more deserving candidates.

Saying that Roy doesn't deserve to be in Smash because he's a bad unit is laughable. There are plenty of characters in Smash who aren't very useful or powerful in their own games but still made it in(Pikachu comes to mind). Not even going to try to the Chronobound "he's actually a good unit, people just hate him" because he really isn't that good(though moving his promotion to Chapter 16/x would do a lot to improve him as a unit).

Also would like to address this:

He must be babied, saddlebagged, carried across maps

If his "low" move is so annoying, you get Boots in Chapter 14.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Given that she eventually gets Amiti and a flying pony that would have been epic.

Ike may have been like a co-Lord in the same sense as Hector; except beginning as a Ranger and then being Lorded by the Princess, who promotes to Queen around the same time. Lord and Queen then take back their country.

That actually would be great; a Lord of noble blood who is literally useless in combat; Elincia perhaps having access only to Staffs until she promotes, at which point she either gets access to magic swords as well or an uberbroken Str growth kicks in and she bifurcates the opposition with Amiti while shielding her countrymen from harm with Fortify, and all the while her Black Hand, the infallible Lord Ike demolishes legions single-handedly ...

Wow I just found a way PoR could have been *better* holy ****.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Saying that Roy doesn't deserve to be in Smash because he's a bad unit is laughable.

Bad unit = Mad player

Mad player = disliked unit

Even if this isn't universally true, in a game with as many characters as FE, there is no reason to include a subpar unit. Even if we ignore his performance in his native game, his character is bland but unlike Marth (who isn't as bland i.m.o but I can't deny that he's a stock Lord) isn't in a game of great significance or enduring relevance. There is nothing Roy has going for him other than him being included in Melee because Sakurai needed to pad out the roster with a clone from the latest FE game at the time.

Anyway, I think we're done here. I've hit my argument quota for the day and I am as likely to budge on this as you are, so I'll stop before I start flaming.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Bad unit = Mad player

Mad player = disliked unit

Even if this isn't universally true, in a game with as many characters as FE, there is no reason to include a subpar unit.

Just because you say something is true doesn't make it so.

Personally, having played FE6, while Roy is by no means a good unit, I feel like his "badness" tends to be exaggerated quite a bit. But then again, I only played the game on Normal mode, so maybe he really is infuriating to use on HM. *shrugs*

There is nothing Roy has going for him other than him being included in Melee because Sakurai needed to pad out the roster with a clone from the latest FE game at the time.

Technically Leif was the most recent Lord, not Roy.

The "Roy was only included because he was recent" is an assertion with very little actual evidence behind it. I could bring up the cednym post as a counter, but that post is unsourced so, despite his account being more plausible than "herp derp Roy was only in because of recency!" in my opinion, I won't treat it as a fact.

 

[Deleted member]

...Well.

Another questions for the much deeper fans that regularly watch this thread :
Do you think Fire Emblem is worthy to have 4 slots or is it too soon yet ?

I would wish to know some opinions about this please.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

...Well.I would wish to know some opinions about this please.

Personally....I don't think so. I would love it if FE did get 4 playable characters, but I doubt that it will. I think 3 is the most likely option for now.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

It's just really wonderful to watch a debate between a character your indifferent towards.

 

[FlareHabanero]

...Well.I would wish to know some opinions about this please.

At the rate things are going, hell no.

 

[Hong]

...Well.I would wish to know some opinions about this please.

I apologize for not responding sooner. This topic has quite a bit of traffic.

In any event, no. I don't think any series is entitled to any number of characters.

They should not add characters to fulfill some magical quota. They should add characters that will both improve the experience based on what they can do.

We got Marth. Not a particularly unique character when it comes to function, but he fulfilled a relatively standard agile swordsman archetype.
We will have another stronger swordsman, this I do not doubt. Be it Ike, Chrom or Lucina, we will have this archetype.

They can totally make another swordsman from the Fire Emblem franchise, but I personally wouldn't recommend it. Take something from Fire Emblem that is special and make a character from that, and only if you have a good idea for them.

 

[Rouge]

I don't think that 100K people outside Japan played FE6. Don't you need to emulate it? I figure only the very niche FE fanbase would go that far.

I am one of those crazy fans. I wasn't impressed by it at all. I felt like the story was pretty lackluster. And I'm not a Roy fan. His late promotion is so darn stupid ugh.

 

[Hong]

I don't think that 100K people outside Japan played FE6. Don't you need to emulate it? I figure only the very niche FE fanbase would go that far.

I am one of those crazy fans. I wasn't impressed by it at all. I felt like the story was pretty lackluster. And I'm not a Roy fan. His late promotion is so darn stupid ugh.

It was an absurdly generous number, I'll give you that. I felt even if it were exaggerated, it would not speak well.

I liked the game. Probably because I played it before the other GBA titles. For me, it was back to basics and much faster than FE4 (since I had not played FE5 at the time). In the grand scheme of the series, it is a weaker entry compared for how far we have come.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Marth's style of fighting was pretty original, and still feels original.

I think people fail to realize the factor that the concept may seem bare, but since no other character emulates it it's technically original. It's not flashy, but the amount of precision and spacing you need to master from the agile movement and the tip, the character gives the character a spine.

 

[Hong]

Marth's style of fighting was pretty original, and still feels original.

I think people fail to realize the factor that the concept may seem bare, but since no other character emulates it it's technically original. It's not flashy, but the amount of precision and spacing you need to master from the agile movement and the tip, the character gives the character a spine.

I was literally referring to what they had to work with in creating Marth.

His character is certainly fresh in the environment of Smash Bros. Not sure how they decided on the sweet-spot concept, but I like it.