You are not "Ungrateful" for being Disappointed

[osby]

Sadly, this might be true. A lot of people in the fanbase don't know how to handle themselves emotionally when a character they personally didn't ask for is revealed. They frequent echo chambers where they become absolutely certain that the characters they want are assured a spot in the Smash roster while also using a leak as leverage, so they tend to react poorly to any other fighter, thinking that the devs owe them, that they are obligated to comply with their choices. And more importantly, they think the character they like is on the top of everyone else's list, ignoring that a person is an individual and not a part of a hivemind. People will be mad at the choices made but more because of their own ignorance and selfishness.



There literally was a trailer made specifically to showcase gameplay elements for Incineroar, so the fact that you're saying that there are none is baffling and can actually be considered to be grasping at straws.
People oughta be honest with themselves and just say "I don't like the character" rather than applying mental gymnastics to tell others that a fighter has "no gameplay elements". We have seen this song and dance for years, and it still makes people lose credibility when they use it as an argument.

How can I like a post thrice?

 

[Captain Shades]

StormC and EricTheGamerman

I want to address some things.

1) I actually said I like most of the characters, I just don’t find them to be exciting. I know StormC said something for Ridley and K Rool, and here’s my stance on them. They are exciting, but basic. They feel like the Rosalina or Bowser Jr. of this game, characters who make complete sense to be in Smash and most of us said they would be and should have been for years, so I don’t find them crazy or different. I guess I was looking for more Wii Fits in the bushes, a character no one predicted, that has a strange moveset and is overall just a weird pick that proves Sakurai can make any character work. Look at it this way, this is a Smash that doesn’t have a retro pick, so it feels somewhat odd to me.

2) I don’t actually mind Simon, he’s just not a hype character. He feels more like a “took you long enough” character. Richter is more the crazy pick in my mind, which is why it seems me and others like him over Simon. I guess it also hurts that there’s only one 3rd party rep compared to the usual two as I feel Smash usually hits the character that should be there (Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu) then has a more outlandish character either due to a lack of Nintendo history or move set potential (Snake, Pac-Man, Cloud). Simon feels to much like he fits in the later category but without the rivalry history of Sega and Nintendo or the how many year absence. He feels like Ryu, cool he’s here, but nothing to exciting overall, at least to me.

3) Bringing Back Everything: I have mixed feelings as I love Wolf and Snake being back (And Ice Climber fans deserved them of course), but so many of the other characters are just lame. I loved Pichu in Meele for the joke appeal, but I wouldn’t hesitate in dropping him as the joke gets old fast and he really doesn’t offer anything unique. Young Link feels incredibly useless as we have Toon Link, the more expressive and important small Link. Squirtle and Ivysaur are cool, but again I can live without them as they were always carried by Charizard it seemed. The stages are also a hit or miss, like I said some stages like Spear Pillar, even for casual fan me, are just too much. While it is nice to have Fountain of Dreams back, there are quite a few stages that should have been left in the past, Pac-Land, Brinstar Depths, etc.

To carry on with my point though, I think the main issue I have with these is not as simple as this character takes priority over mine, but rather that development time was wasted on this rather than other aspects of the game. Tons of game modes are gone, even if they were in Wii U, which is odd seeing as this game borrows heavily from the previous installments. I thought we’d be getting something cool with Spirits, but it’s just updated events, and no I didn’t have unreasonable expectations and neither did the community. They hyped the mode to be something big like Subspace, and they showed boss battles to make it seem like there would be a campaign of some sort. I never expected a Subspace campaign, but an upgraded Adventure Mode or smaller scale Nintendo focused Subspace would have been nice, but instead we get slight variations on regular matches with PNG rewards. They took out trophies because of the work load of making descriptions, so now we get images I can find on google in 10 seconds, so my question is, what is development time being used on? The new modes seem basic with minimal content, we lost tons of modes, the game is literally using the Wii U content so they’re not remaking everything from scratch like in previous enteries, we lost the need for trophy descriptions, and we have less new comers and stages than previous enteries.

This is an issue that seems to go beyond Smash though and only TheBitBlock seems to point out as Nintendo games are blatantly missing content. Mario Tennis Aces has barely any single player content that was worthwhile. Kirby was missing loads of content, only having 4 worlds, and pretty much being the most mediocre entry in the franchise. Mario Kart 8 was missing a real Battle Mode, a staple of the series, up until its rerelease. ARMS has like nothing to do, and Splatoon 2, while fixed now, was pretty much in the same boat upon launch. I guess I just want more content in Nintendo’s releases since most have gone down hill since the Wii era, with a few exceptions being mainline Mario and Zelda.

 

[S_B]

Also don't forget Waluigi, Lyn, Ashley, Midna, Skull Kid, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Shadow etc. fans because a lot of them seems to be personally offended because Sakurai didn't added every single one of them.

People have been asking for these characters for a long time and I don't blame them one bit for being disappointed.

People are very passionate about this game. If they weren't, it wouldn't sell as well as it does. The main appeal of SSB is that it's not just another fighting game where you play as characters native to that game but characters from Nintendo's history and now gaming's history on the whole. That's literally the main draw of the game so I can't blame people for hoping the Nintendo characters they like the most will be added.

Given that these are the characters we'll all be playing for the next 3-5 years, I completely understand being crushed over them being either dismissed outright or made into ATs. I feel immensely lucky that KKR and Ridley made it in after all this time, mainly because they're the first new heavyweights added to the game since Brawl.

 

[osby]

People have been asking for these characters for a long time and I don't blame them one bit for being disappointed.

People are very passionate about this game. If they weren't, it wouldn't sell as well as it does. The main appeal of SSB is that it's not just another fighting game where you play as characters native to that game but characters from Nintendo's history and now gaming's history on the whole. That's literally the main draw of the game so I can't blame people for hoping the Nintendo characters they like the most will be added.

Given that these are the characters we'll all be playing for the next 3-5 years, I completely understand being crushed over them being either dismissed outright or made into ATs. I feel immensely lucky that KKR and Ridley made it in after all this time, mainly because they're the first new heavyweights added to the game since Brawl.

It's perfectly fine being disappointed because of the character choices. It's just some people take this too personally. Also isn't Bowser Jr. a heavy?

 

[Oddball]

it just feels to me like so many of these posts just boil down to people trying to find different ways to say "I'm not ungrateful, but the stuff they spent time on is stupid and the stuff I wanted would have been so much better."

Also, and this might just be me, but am I the only one who sees characters revealed as assists and thinks "oh cool. They're in the game!" rather than "Oh they're not playable. That sucks!"?

 

[StormC]

StormC and EricTheGamerman

I want to address some things.

1) I actually said I like most of the characters, I just don’t find them to be exciting. I know StormC said something for Ridley and K Rool, and here’s my stance on them. They are exciting, but basic. They feel like the Rosalina or Bowser Jr. of this game, characters who make complete sense to be in Smash and most of us said they would be and should have been for years, so I don’t find them crazy or different. I guess I was looking for more Wii Fits in the bushes, a character no one predicted, that has a strange moveset and is overall just a weird pick that proves Sakurai can make any character work. Look at it this way, this is a Smash that doesn’t have a retro pick, so it feels somewhat odd to me.

2) I don’t actually mind Simon, he’s just not a hype character. He feels more like a “took you long enough” character. Richter is more the crazy pick in my mind, which is why it seems me and others like him over Simon. I guess it also hurts that there’s only one 3rd party rep compared to the usual two as I feel Smash usually hits the character that should be there (Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu) then has a more outlandish character either due to a lack of Nintendo history or move set potential (Snake, Pac-Man, Cloud). Simon feels to much like he fits in the later category but without the rivalry history of Sega and Nintendo or the how many year absence. He feels like Ryu, cool he’s here, but nothing to exciting overall, at least to me.

3) Bringing Back Everything: I have mixed feelings as I love Wolf and Snake being back (And Ice Climber fans deserved them of course), but so many of the other characters are just lame. I loved Pichu in Meele for the joke appeal, but I wouldn’t hesitate in dropping him as the joke gets old fast and he really doesn’t offer anything unique. Young Link feels incredibly useless as we have Toon Link, the more expressive and important small Link. Squirtle and Ivysaur are cool, but again I can live without them as they were always carried by Charizard it seemed. The stages are also a hit or miss, like I said some stages like Spear Pillar, even for casual fan me, are just too much. While it is nice to have Fountain of Dreams back, there are quite a few stages that should have been left in the past, Pac-Land, Brinstar Depths, etc.

To carry on with my point though, I think the main issue I have with these is not as simple as this character takes priority over mine, but rather that development time was wasted on this rather than other aspects of the game. Tons of game modes are gone, even if they were in Wii U, which is odd seeing as this game borrows heavily from the previous installments. I thought we’d be getting something cool with Spirits, but it’s just updated events, and no I didn’t have unreasonable expectations and neither did the community. They hyped the mode to be something big like Subspace, and they showed boss battles to make it seem like there would be a campaign of some sort. I never expected a Subspace campaign, but an upgraded Adventure Mode or smaller scale Nintendo focused Subspace would have been nice, but instead we get slight variations on regular matches with PNG rewards. They took out trophies because of the work load of making descriptions, so now we get images I can find on google in 10 seconds, so my question is, what is development time being used on? The new modes seem basic with minimal content, we lost tons of modes, the game is literally using the Wii U content so they’re not remaking everything from scratch like in previous enteries, we lost the need for trophy descriptions, and we have less new comers and stages than previous enteries.

This is an issue that seems to go beyond Smash though and only TheBitBlock seems to point out as Nintendo games are blatantly missing content. Mario Tennis Aces has barely any single player content that was worthwhile. Kirby was missing loads of content, only having 4 worlds, and pretty much being the most mediocre entry in the franchise. Mario Kart 8 was missing a real Battle Mode, a staple of the series, up until its rerelease. ARMS has like nothing to do, and Splatoon 2, while fixed now, was pretty much in the same boat upon launch. I guess I just want more content in Nintendo’s releases since most have gone down hill since the Wii era, with a few exceptions being mainline Mario and Zelda.

Fair enough. I'll touch upon some things really quick:

-Spirits/Adventure is definitely disappointing, no questions there. I think saying that this game is "blatantly missing content" is a stretch though. There are over 70 playable characters and over 100 stages. Although I do wish there were more new stages, I'm happy with most of the ones they brought back - and yes, I did want to see Brinstar Depths return. HD Kraid, baby!

-Considering there were only half a dozen unique newcomers (one of which seemingly being more of a semi-clone), I think the choices Sakurai made were good. Inkling was a necessity, Ridley and K. Rool were basically the last "constantly requested since Melee" characters, Castlevania is a classic third party series that was probably easy to get because Konami was already on board. Isabelle and Incineroar are easily the most controversial of these characters, and I don't care about Animal Crossing, but I always enjoy Pokemon fighters in Smash and Roar looks to be one of the stand-outs. So, basically, 2/3 of the roster is rock solid, the rest comes down to personal taste. That's not a bad batting record, all things considered.

-I would much rather see characters fans actually want - even ones I'm not invested in, like Isaac - than "shock characters." A character isn't good because it's shocking. Duck Hunt is a great choice for more than being shocking. Duck Hunt is an iconic NES game that people still remember after 30 years and the dog has woven itself into video game culture permanently. The moveset itself is very clever and well implemented. Wii Fit Trainer is a character that was not on anybody's radar whatsoever - let's be real, nobody will remember Wii Fit in 10 years - and the moveset is janky as hell and one of the worst in Smash 4. A character like that has nothing to offer me other than the initial "shock."

-For me, I'm getting old. I'm 27. I've been in the thick of Smash speculation since 2007, during the Brawl dojo days. Combing over Sakurai interviews, looking at fan polls, discussing, arguing, obsessing. I can't do this much longer, frankly. I thought I was done after Smash 4, only for them to immediately reveal the next Smash soon after. And thank goodness they did, because K. Rool and Ridley were the last of my big requests for Smash. I have a sense of closure on this series now. Sakurai adding them was basically telling me "you're free." While there are characters I still think should definitely be in, like Bandana Dee and Dixie, and characters I would like to be in but don't feel like they have to be in like Banjo-Kazooie, K. Rool and Ridley were the last of the white whales. K. Rool especially, I was reduced to tears by his trailer. Snake and Wolf coming back might as well be a victory lap for me.

So, now what? I assume I'll play video games, Nintendo especially, for as long as I physically can, but I think I am going to transition out of spending hours online talking about them like this. I'm trying to work on my career. When the next Smash comes out - which could be a decade from now - I'll be there to play it, for sure, but I'm not going to have a horse in the race anymore. I'm hanging up the hat.

 

[S_B]

It's perfectly fine being disappointed because of the character choices. It's just some people take this too personally. Also isn't Bowser Jr. a heavy?

I've not seen the overreaction myself, but after PP's reveal, it kinda does feel personal.

Right after watching the assist trophy deconfirmation parade, some of the saddened fans probably tried to console themselves by saying, "Well, maybe _________ just wasn't relevant enough to be included..." only for them to immediately follow up with a character that is objectively less relevant than any of theirs because it doesn't even have a name.

Yeah, were that me watching after KKR had just been deconfirmed as an AT, I'd probably skip this SSB. Ridley looks neat, but KKR looks disgustingly fun and is the sole source of my hype for this game.

Again, can't blame people for being severely disappointed, but Sakurai always fires off the hype cannon far too early so we should've expected that the final direct would've been "meh" at best.

As for Bowser Jr., a heavy isn't really a heavy unless they've got a large hurtbox to contend with in my mind. Maybe the term "fatty" would be better here, but I mostly mean characters who have better reach and power at the cost of being huge and easy to hit/combo.

 

[AquaSol]

The notion that disappointment is the same as ingratitude is absurd. As consumers, we have every right to express dissatisfaction with products. That’s how they change and evolve over time. The whole reason we got the Smash Ballot seemed to be because people were unhappy with not having a lot of input in the character selection process. I am extremely excited for this game and thankful for how much effort went into it. However, I can’t help but feel that the characters are a bit lacking.

My feeling is that K. Rool is the only top 10/15 newcomer whose inclusion was 100% from the ballot - in my opinion, we should have gotten more. K. Rool can’t carry the ballot representation on his own. Ridley’s inclusion was partly due to the ballot, but I also feel it was because of all the rage from SSB4. Dark Samus, Chrom, and Simon don’t seem like they’d fall in the top 10/15 on the ballot. Incineroar didn’t even exist back then. Isabelle and Inklings are questionable, but they were probably getting in even without the ballot. I didn’t even want Isaac/Banjo/Geno, but I honestly expected at least one, mainly Geno.

The Grinch leak was a huge case of confirmation bias. Regardless, that’s what I feel a truly fanservice Ultimate roster would have looked like. I’m still unbelievably hype for this game, but the newcomers are a bit lacking.

 

[QuintonShark8714]

Its single-player is looking to be disappointing (unfortunately)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l6hhy7H23U

 

[S_B]

Its single-player is looking to be disappointing (unfortunately)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l6hhy7H23U

I like the painted mural, but the rest is pretty blah.

 

[Captain Shades]

StormC mind if I talk about your points in order

Spirits/Adventure is definitely disappointing, no questions there. I think saying that this game is "blatantly missing content" is a stretch though. There are over 70 playable characters and over 100 stages. Although I do wish there were more new stages, I'm happy with most of the ones they brought back - and yes, I did want to see Brinstar Depths return. HD Kraid, baby!

Maybe a stretch, but I feel Smash is somewhat incomplete. To put it simply, it feels like Mario Kart 8, a game that has great emphasis on the core but loses everything else. Mario Kart 8 is a complete game, no denying that, but if you ask MK fans I think they would agree that the game feels lacking without a proper Battle Mode. I feel this way for Smash. Brawl introduced tons of great ideas into the series that have only gotten worse than cut through Smash Wii U and Ultimate. As I’ve stated before the lack of a stage builder, a story/ adventure mode, trophies, target test, boss battles mode, and seemingly other iconic modes like Home-Run contest and Smash Tour do leave this entry and the previous feeling a bit hollow if you ask me. I love the emphasis on the core that went through MK 8 and Smash, but I cannot deny my disappointment when it comes to the sacrifices that were made to get that.

Considering there were only half a dozen unique newcomers (one of which seemingly being more of a semi-clone), I think the choices Sakurai made were good. Inkling was a necessity, Ridley and K. Rool were basically the last "constantly requested since Melee" characters, Castlevania is a classic third party series that was probably easy to get because Konami was already on board. Isabelle and Incineroar are easily the most controversial of these characters, and I don't care about Animal Crossing, but I always enjoy Pokemon fighters in Smash and Roar looks to be one of the stand-outs. So, basically, 2/3 of the roster is rock solid, the rest comes down to personal taste. That's not a bad batting record, all things considered.

-I would much rather see characters fans actually want - even ones I'm not invested in, like Isaac - than "shock characters." A character isn't good because it's shocking. Duck Hunt is a great choice for more than being shocking. Duck Hunt is an iconic NES game that people still remember after 30 years and the dog has woven itself into video game culture permanently. The moveset itself is very clever and well implemented. Wii Fit Trainer is a character that was not on anybody's radar whatsoever - let's be real, nobody will remember Wii Fit in 10 years - and the moveset is janky as hell and one of the worst in Smash 4. A character like that has nothing to offer me other than the initial "shock."

I’m actually in agreement and have been, like I’ve said I am happy with the character picks, they just don’t necessarily excite me. K Rool and Ridley fans deserved their characters, even if I’m not a big fan in particular. Honestly I’m only trying to get the Dee in as he’s the only character I truly want. As much as I understand your point about about wanting fan requests, I personally feel that fan requests made the roster boring, or too safe to put it in nicer terms. I like when Sakurai goes out of bounds on characters. I get that Wii Fit isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but saying people won’t remember these types of characters seems unfair. Wii Fit is still seen as shocking to many today, and I bet there would be out cry if Mr. Game & Watch was ever removed. While I can understand your distaste for Wii Fit, can you honestly say you hate characters like the Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Jigglypuff, or Duck Hunt, all of which are more jokey characters? I feel each adds something to the roster that wouldn’t be there without them. Plus who says people don’t want them, as clearly there was backing for say Mach Rider.

For me, I'm getting old. I'm 27. I've been in the thick of Smash speculation since 2007, during the Brawl dojo days. Combing over Sakurai interviews, looking at fan polls, discussing, arguing, obsessing. I can't do this much longer, frankly. I thought I was done after Smash 4, only for them to immediately reveal the next Smash soon after. And thank goodness they did, because K. Rool and Ridley were the last of my big requests for Smash. I have a sense of closure on this series now. Sakurai adding them was basically telling me "you're free." While there are characters I still think should definitely be in, like Bandana Dee and Dixie, and characters I would like to be in but don't feel like they have to be in like Banjo-Kazooie, K. Rool and Ridley were the last of the white whales. K. Rool especially, I was reduced to tears by his trailer. Snake and Wolf coming back might as well be a victory lap for me.

Nothing to say here, but wow..

Time has really flown since Brawl, I was in second grade and it was my first Nintendo game. It got me into Kirby, as I played the Super Star remake for DS a year later because I loved Meta Knight. After that I got RTDL and got one sole character requests Bandana Dee. Now it’s been about 9 years and I’m still waiting on him, so I guess I’m not ‘free’ yet.

I kind of agree though, even only being in this community for less than a decade, I honestly don’t feel hype for Smash as much as I did with Wii U. This is my second hype cycle, and honestly I’ve just stayed somewhat out of loop as I consistently go through a hype and dissatisfaction cycle. I remember being hyped when the Inkling trailer was shown, only to feel disappointment at E3. The game looked rough, way to bright and was clearly just Wii U again. I got over it because hey Snake and Wolf are there, and so is Ridley so all his fans can be pleased. I feel like the August Direct was good though, it had Chrom so how could I complain. Isabelle was weird, but I honestly enjoyed her. Then this last Direct just hit me the wrong way again. I feel that the graphics looked rough again, the Spirits mode looked rushed and unpolished, no trophies, what? I just want a good single player again, but I can accept Smash’s more multiplayer focus, even if I don’t want to.

To sign off for now, I salute you on your quest to get Bandana Dee, Dixie, and Banjo, and hope those characters along with others can come and make this game feel more special.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

StormC and EricTheGamerman

I want to address some things.

1) I actually said I like most of the characters, I just don’t find them to be exciting. I know StormC said something for Ridley and K Rool, and here’s my stance on them. They are exciting, but basic. They feel like the Rosalina or Bowser Jr. of this game, characters who make complete sense to be in Smash and most of us said they would be and should have been for years, so I don’t find them crazy or different. I guess I was looking for more Wii Fits in the bushes, a character no one predicted, that has a strange moveset and is overall just a weird pick that proves Sakurai can make any character work. Look at it this way, this is a Smash that doesn’t have a retro pick, so it feels somewhat odd to me.

2) I don’t actually mind Simon, he’s just not a hype character. He feels more like a “took you long enough” character. Richter is more the crazy pick in my mind, which is why it seems me and others like him over Simon. I guess it also hurts that there’s only one 3rd party rep compared to the usual two as I feel Smash usually hits the character that should be there (Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu) then has a more outlandish character either due to a lack of Nintendo history or move set potential (Snake, Pac-Man, Cloud). Simon feels to much like he fits in the later category but without the rivalry history of Sega and Nintendo or the how many year absence. He feels like Ryu, cool he’s here, but nothing to exciting overall, at least to me.

3) Bringing Back Everything: I have mixed feelings as I love Wolf and Snake being back (And Ice Climber fans deserved them of course), but so many of the other characters are just lame. I loved Pichu in Meele for the joke appeal, but I wouldn’t hesitate in dropping him as the joke gets old fast and he really doesn’t offer anything unique. Young Link feels incredibly useless as we have Toon Link, the more expressive and important small Link. Squirtle and Ivysaur are cool, but again I can live without them as they were always carried by Charizard it seemed. The stages are also a hit or miss, like I said some stages like Spear Pillar, even for casual fan me, are just too much. While it is nice to have Fountain of Dreams back, there are quite a few stages that should have been left in the past, Pac-Land, Brinstar Depths, etc.

To carry on with my point though, I think the main issue I have with these is not as simple as this character takes priority over mine, but rather that development time was wasted on this rather than other aspects of the game. Tons of game modes are gone, even if they were in Wii U, which is odd seeing as this game borrows heavily from the previous installments. I thought we’d be getting something cool with Spirits, but it’s just updated events, and no I didn’t have unreasonable expectations and neither did the community. They hyped the mode to be something big like Subspace, and they showed boss battles to make it seem like there would be a campaign of some sort. I never expected a Subspace campaign, but an upgraded Adventure Mode or smaller scale Nintendo focused Subspace would have been nice, but instead we get slight variations on regular matches with PNG rewards. They took out trophies because of the work load of making descriptions, so now we get images I can find on google in 10 seconds, so my question is, what is development time being used on? The new modes seem basic with minimal content, we lost tons of modes, the game is literally using the Wii U content so they’re not remaking everything from scratch like in previous enteries, we lost the need for trophy descriptions, and we have less new comers and stages than previous enteries.

This is an issue that seems to go beyond Smash though and only TheBitBlock seems to point out as Nintendo games are blatantly missing content. Mario Tennis Aces has barely any single player content that was worthwhile. Kirby was missing loads of content, only having 4 worlds, and pretty much being the most mediocre entry in the franchise. Mario Kart 8 was missing a real Battle Mode, a staple of the series, up until its rerelease. ARMS has like nothing to do, and Splatoon 2, while fixed now, was pretty much in the same boat upon launch. I guess I just want more content in Nintendo’s releases since most have gone down hill since the Wii era, with a few exceptions being mainline Mario and Zelda.

You really hate Spear Pillar, eh?

You're certainly allowed to be as disappointed as you are though. My response wasn't to say anything badly about your response, just sort of offering my perspective. For characters, the fans undoubtedly demanded that characters return, even Pichu and Young Link. Bringing everyone back was a fan move, and again, making sure the unique move sets of Smash are retained is important in offering diversity I believe. They may not be from the most interesting characters or most relevant ones, but Wii Fit Trainer plays unique enough that you're actively cutting big pieces of content game to game if you remove her. I don't think this applies when making new characters though, as while yes new unique move sets can be introduced, I don't think that should take priority over fan picks in...the ya know... fan service game specifically noted this installment for listening to fans (Hence Piranha Plant falls completely flat and is completely misplaced on this roster at this point).

I also absolutely fundamentally disagree that Charizard carries the Pokemon Trainer. Squirtle and Ivysaur do lots of good, and are often the objectively better picks than Charizard from what I've seen on competitive matches with Ultimate so far. You can not like them all you want, but Charizard isn't the only important one of the trio by far. Pokemon probably does indeed have too many reps, and seeing four added from the last game is insane (Even if three are just returning). But again, the Everyone is Here is undoubtedly one of the most fan pleasing and listening to the fans moves that Sakurai has done. I definitely can understand personal disappointment at the sentiment as you don't like the characters (Though it's really just the four we weren't expecting you seem to have such a dislike for). I just believe that is Sakurai actually living up to his promise of developing something for the fans in keeping the roster complete, and maybe the wrong place to bring fault to him (I believe you did mention that this was a fan issue, and I completely agree there).

Stages I actually agree on. I do have a belief that all franchises ever represented in Smash should remain, so Hannenbow, Wrecking Crew, etc. may not be the best stages, but I want to see them around for what they represent. But yeah, the overall focus on revamping old stages maybe wasn't the best call. There are definitely fans of every stage as there are characters, but I'm a lot more willing to let go of stages. They didn't just port those though, they completely redid most of them that weren't already new in Smash 4. I think that's where most of the development time went honestly. Wii U had like 22 brand new stages that were done in HD that probably required minimal work. The seven N64 stages don't count towards this as they're just more straight recreated and we have four new stages. The remaining 70 stages all required immense work to create proper HD assets and backgrounds, especially from Melee and 3DS. They look beautiful, but that's a lot of work. With only four entirely brand new stages, things feel weird. And I don't agree with the priority like that. Having only four new stages just feels like too few. Especially with all the great content released in the past couple years that could serve as inspiration. Even just ten would have felt a lot better, but four feels a bit too few I agree.

Spirits was never actually hyped up by Sakurai though. ALL he said prior to reveal was that he would reveal it later. Fans went completely nuts with the ideas and made the expectations. While a fair point to assume it would be more substantial after seeing it be a main menu option and fitting with idea of the Ultimate Smash game, Spirits itself is the greatest victim of hype I've seen. Doesn't make it inherently a better mode, but we also were promised nothing with it. I'm disappointed in the direction of Spirits, but it was clearly designed with a lot of love and care, and I imagine took development time conceiving of all these weird scenarios. It's different from what most of us hoped for and wanted, and that's just the reality of the situation. Which is a shame... I don't think Spirits is some easy copy/paste mode from the internet, and all third party characters are going to require rights to be determined as well even if it is just essentially a PNG image.



I don't think Ultimate falls in line with the other examples of Nintendo's new trends. I think they fundamentally did a lot to develop this game into something massive. They just did it with different priorities than you or me might have considered. Things like remaking the stages with proper HD assets, designing a long and inclusive Spirits mode with lots of options, designing Classic mode for every individual character, and tweaking all of the returning characters as much as they have takes a LOT of time. And I feel like we tend to overestimate just how much Sakurai could lift from the last game because this isn't a straight port. It's just how they approached it differently from what we might have wanted or believed the game would be, which is completely valid to be disappointed in. I just don't believe Smash fits with the other examples because we would have been given piecemeal updates if that was to be believed (Characters slowly rolled out for free for the next few months). That's the model Splatoon, ARMS, and Mario Tennis Aces all perpetrate. Free updates to expand a game that wasn't perhaps as complete as it should have been on launch.

I know why Nintendo does this. They got caught with their pants down during the Wii U era for having nothing for long stretches of time, and they want a better release schedule. The shot so many big titles off last year and have so many in development now that 2018 just kind of got screwed, so they had to release SOMETHING. Thus Kirby Star Allies and Mario Tennis Aces are rushed out to consumers despite needing more time in the oven once they've established a firm and entertaining foundation for the game. They can add content post launch to keep the more hardcore fans entertained, while just giving fans something to play first party wise. When the alternative is nothing but ports, I think their decision makes sense. They're rushing the smaller games to give fans something to play, which is a shame, but for the most part they've done a good job of not charging extra for the new content. The incomplete games on launch may feel bad, but they aren't just charging for updates and aren't utilizing micro-transactions. Their DLC practices involve substantial content usually so you feel like you have a reason to pay for new content if you do. It's scummy, but these days that's actually being the good guy as ****ed up as that is.

The "missing content" from Ultimate isn't of that sort of idea. It's had plenty of time for development, they just didn't choose to prioritize the minor stuff like Stadium modes and so on. Trophies are the same story, it's a shift in development ideology. Just one that can be very disappointing to long time fans.

 

[StormC]

While I can understand your distaste for Wii Fit, can you honestly say you hate characters like the Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Jigglypuff, or Duck Hunt, all of which are more jokey characters? I feel each adds something to the roster that wouldn’t be there without them. Plus who says people don’t want them, as clearly there was backing for say Mach Rider.

I'd say Duck Hunt and MGAW stand the tallest here. Like I said, Duck Hunt is an iconic game that people still remember after 30 years, along with the dog. The Game And Watch series has a rich history spanning decades, if you include the collections. Jigglypuff was created with assets borrowed from Kirby and Ice Climbers come from a mediocre, forgotten NES title whose original implementation in Smash was completely broken. R.O.B. exists and that's all about I can say regarding arguably the most forgettable Smash character ever (to the point where someone once made a fake leak that forgot to include him and people took hours to realize he wasn't there). I didn't lose sleep when Ice Climbers was cut and I probably wouldn't with Jigglypuff or R.O.B., but they're here, and they have fans, so what's done is done.

To sign off for now, I salute you on your quest to get Bandana Dee, Dixie, and Banjo, and hope those characters along with others can come and make this game feel more special.

I appreciate it, though like I said, if they don't get in now, I'm going to move on. I fully believe this is the only wave of Smash Ultimate DLC. There won't be a second ballot and there won't be any fan campaigns. At this point, if those characters didn't get in, I'd be waiting another 5-7 years at minimum. I'll stop caring by then. I got all the characters that I really wanted already. But I think Bandana Dee and Banjo stand a decent chance of being added as DLC (I've given up on Sakurai adding meaningful DK content outside of overwhelming fan demand), so hopefully that will come in, but if not... I can't act like Sakurai didn't address my demands already.

I'd be really salty if K. Rool wasn't in this roster, I won't lie. Even Ridley wouldn't be enough to tide me over. But he made it, and I couldn't be happier. So, I'm sorry for those that could be waiting a long time to get their favorites, but this is a chapter of my life I can finally, and gladly, close. Not without some bittersweetness, but with closure nonetheless.

 

[volbound1700]

I agree with most of what you've written here. When you decide to bring back the Smash 4 roster, and then add in Snake, Ice Climbers, and Wolf, you're just four short of being able to say you've brought back every character. I really can't think of a good reason to not go ahead and include the likes of Pichu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Young Link. "Everyone is Here" was a big win for Sakurai and Nintendo, so I think they definitely made a good decision with Ultimate in that regard. It's a great way to drum up hype that doesn't hurt anyone. And while I admit they probably did take significant resources, again, we don't know just exactly how much goes into a returning veteran like Pichu vs. attempting to incorporate a full newcomer.

I'm sorry if people feel disappointed in the fact that Sakurai is bringing back all the old characters and not focusing on new ones, but that's one of those decisions that shows a different priority again. And fan polls at the very least did seem to indicate that people wanted characters back. Many of the unique play styles of less popular characters do actively add to the game as well, so it's not necessarily like a brand new character would be adding more than realizing a fan request inherently. Most could be made unique, but actively removing unique styles already present in the games definitely would take away from Ultimate as a whole.

And, honestly, same with the end of the line for rosters. Sakurai never ends hype cycles with the most hype newcomers, and Smash 4 taught me to realize that and believe in the harsh realities of end game, so I'm glad I could brace for it. I really hope the DLC characters are decent in the end though... Vergeben has me terrified on a Granblue character and I want that specific idea dead as soon as possible (And at least it didn't come from him DIRECTLY)

I don't even think it is the fact that we aren't getting a lot of new characters, it is the new characters that we have received since August. The DLC rumor aren't helping with Steve and GranBlue sounding likely. Why not Banjo and Rayman? Both are highly wanted.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't even think it is the fact that we aren't getting a lot of new characters, it is the new characters that we have received since August. The DLC rumor aren't helping with Steve and GranBlue sounding likely. Why not Banjo and Rayman? Both are highly wanted.

Well, they have limited roster spots to deal with just due to the development focus. They could only add so many newcomers with everything else in development. We received a whole three characters and a DLC bonus since August. Looking at those characters, they mostly have a reason to be here:

Isabelle - One of Nintendo's breakout stars from the past few years as has been noted multiple times. She is an extremely popular character from an extremely popular franchise that honestly had earned a second rep. Her in Smash may not have been as notable of an idea, but she has massive popularity to AC fans and Nintendo fans as a whole. Plus, she's a semi clone so she gets away with being less difficult to develop.

Ken - He's just an Echo fighter at the end of the day. Even with the attention paid to him, he's not unique and probably didn't take all that much to develop. He should honestly be a hype inclusion too as a third party Echo of a famous and notable fighter. I can understand being disappointed by Street Fighter having such a presence, but he makes complete sense and is an addition that makes Street Fighter feel a little more whole in the 1 vs. 1 sense. Plus, the whole original Echo thing.

Incineroar - The Pokemon Company and Gamefreak are an important relationship to Nintendo. We always had the threat of another Pokemon being added, and he was clearly the one that The Pokemon Company wanted to push as seen by the anime. He's an advertisement rep through and through, and I suspect he's the one they presented to Sakurai with the most sensible move set potential early on. There was no way of knowing which Pokemon would be the most successful from Gen 7, so we ended up with him. Disappointing, but it confirms the whole a Pokemon rep is like death and taxes ideology. Which makes some sense as the juggernaut of the company which probably has some guarantee of Smash characters if there ever was one. Plus they really did try to make him unique and stand out as a character.

Piranha Plant - Yeah, I've got nothing for him. That's just Sakurai deciding to make his traditional weird/unique character work in Smash. There's no circumstance that leads to him being a sensible inclusion beyond that, and he was 100% meant as a troll. People have mentioned Petey Piranha before, so maybe that's a point? But yeah, no he's the disappointment center of the game at this point, which is 100% earned for what he stands for. Again, that's aside from how unique and different his move set is being made to be.

So that's three of the four characters that are sensible additions. Isabelle is a modern icon for Nintendo, so she gets a spot. Ken is just an Echo, and in general would have been considered extremely hype as such an easy addition had he not been the source of box theory. Incineroar is just our Pokemon from the most recent gen. A trend that we seem to have set in stone, and may very well be set in writing for Smash as Nintendo's biggest series. The choice in Pokemon can be disappointing, but he was decided long before Gen 7 was released and revealed in all honesty.

I'll completely give you that Piranha Plant is disappointing and hurts the fans a lot. That's just Sakurai doing what he wants to do, which is fair... just not now. Incineroar can be disappointing, but again, that may just be an inevitability of Smash games that Sakurai himself has no control over.

Rayman and Banjo are both third party characters that would have taken licensing and a lot more work to include. Rayman is popular but not top of ballot popular anyway. And Banjo could very well be behind walls of red tape that we don't know about. They're a lot harder to include as they both require getting involved with new third party companies that are also Western and require much more effort in meeting demands as a result. Bandanna Dee and Isaac would have been more sensible just as easier to include Nintendo characters, but the base roster at least makes sense and didn't really waste any newcomers.

DLC, on the other hand, may be an entirely different situation. I've already discussed Piranha Plant. And yes, the rumors are scary that they may all just be advertising reps for third parties. But we're not guaranteed on that, so let's try to contain that disappointment for actual announcements. I get those rumors are coming at the EXACT WRONG MOMENT right now though. Especially Granblue, **** that idea all around.

 

[S_B]

I will be truly disappointed if:

-Online play is still a laggy mess

-The game has bugs like Brawl did

-Character balance patches come too slowly or, god help us, don't come at all

Sakurai is no stranger to having his late-game character reveals be underwhelming, though I feel like most people dared to hope that the Grinch leak was real because two of the biggest (no pun intended) never-evers, Ridley and KKR, got into the game after most people being convinced neither would ever happen due to relevance or just being too damn big.

But again, more than anything, disappointment will come if they don't keep this game as esports capable as possible, mainly in staying on top of blatant imbalances.

 

[volbound1700]

Well, they have limited roster spots to deal with just due to the development focus. They could only add so many newcomers with everything else in development. We received a whole three characters and a DLC bonus since August. Looking at those characters, they mostly have a reason to be here:

Isabelle - One of Nintendo's breakout stars from the past few years as has been noted multiple times. She is an extremely popular character from an extremely popular franchise that honestly had earned a second rep. Her in Smash may not have been as notable of an idea, but she has massive popularity to AC fans and Nintendo fans as a whole. Plus, she's a semi clone so she gets away with being less difficult to develop.

Ken - He's just an Echo fighter at the end of the day. Even with the attention paid to him, he's not unique and probably didn't take all that much to develop. He should honestly be a hype inclusion too as a third party Echo of a famous and notable fighter. I can understand being disappointed by Street Fighter having such a presence, but he makes complete sense and is an addition that makes Street Fighter feel a little more whole in the 1 vs. 1 sense. Plus, the whole original Echo thing.

Incineroar - The Pokemon Company and Gamefreak are an important relationship to Nintendo. We always had the threat of another Pokemon being added, and he was clearly the one that The Pokemon Company wanted to push as seen by the anime. He's an advertisement rep through and through, and I suspect he's the one they presented to Sakurai with the most sensible move set potential early on. There was no way of knowing which Pokemon would be the most successful from Gen 7, so we ended up with him. Disappointing, but it confirms the whole a Pokemon rep is like death and taxes ideology. Which makes some sense as the juggernaut of the company which probably has some guarantee of Smash characters if there ever was one. Plus they really did try to make him unique and stand out as a character.

Piranha Plant - Yeah, I've got nothing for him. That's just Sakurai deciding to make his traditional weird/unique character work in Smash. There's no circumstance that leads to him being a sensible inclusion beyond that, and he was 100% meant as a troll. People have mentioned Petey Piranha before, so maybe that's a point? But yeah, no he's the disappointment center of the game at this point, which is 100% earned for what he stands for. Again, that's aside from how unique and different his move set is being made to be.

So that's three of the four characters that are sensible additions. Isabelle is a modern icon for Nintendo, so she gets a spot. Ken is just an Echo, and in general would have been considered extremely hype as such an easy addition had he not been the source of box theory. Incineroar is just our Pokemon from the most recent gen. A trend that we seem to have set in stone, and may very well be set in writing for Smash as Nintendo's biggest series. The choice in Pokemon can be disappointing, but he was decided long before Gen 7 was released and revealed in all honesty.

I'll completely give you that Piranha Plant is disappointing and hurts the fans a lot. That's just Sakurai doing what he wants to do, which is fair... just not now. Incineroar can be disappointing, but again, that may just be an inevitability of Smash games that Sakurai himself has no control over.

Rayman and Banjo are both third party characters that would have taken licensing and a lot more work to include. Rayman is popular but not top of ballot popular anyway. And Banjo could very well be behind walls of red tape that we don't know about. They're a lot harder to include as they both require getting involved with new third party companies that are also Western and require much more effort in meeting demands as a result. Bandanna Dee and Isaac would have been more sensible just as easier to include Nintendo characters, but the base roster at least makes sense and didn't really waste any newcomers
DLC, on the other hand, may be an entirely different situation. I've already discussed Piranha Plant. And yes, the rumors are scary that they may all just be advertising reps for third parties. But we're not guaranteed on that, so let's try to contain that disappointment for actual announcements. I get those rumors are coming at the EXACT WRONG MOMENT right now though. Especially Granblue, **** that idea all around.

Out of all the characters, Isabella is the most disappointing. She is not a fighter and honestly I don't see anyone liking her except pre-teen girls. Baby character overall. Skullkid would have been a FAR better pick. I am alright with the Piranha Plant, especially as a gimick character.

I wish I could trade Dark Samus, Ken, Isabella, and Incineroar for Dixie Kong, Isaac, Skullkid, and Badanna Dee. Far better options over those four.

I also think there are really three third-party that are far ahead of the others at the moment in fan support and how they fit in the game. Banjo, Geno, and Rayman. However, I am not sure if we will get any of them as DLC which is very unfortunate.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Out of all the characters, Isabella is the most disappointing. She is not a fighter and honestly I don't see anyone liking her except pre-teen girls. Baby character overall. Skullkid would have been a FAR better pick. I am alright with the Piranha Plant, especially as a gimick character.

I wish I could trade Dark Samus, Ken, Isabella, and Incineroar for Dixie Kong, Isaac, Skullkid, and Badanna Dee. Far better options over those four.

I also think there are really three third-party that are far ahead of the others at the moment in fan support and how they fit in the game. Banjo, Geno, and Rayman. However, I am not sure if we will get any of them as DLC which is very unfortunate.

Oh boy, here we ****ing go with this argument again. Despite the fact that are in this game?

When Ultimate came out, I had so much fun with the community with the memes, the fan art, and the speculation that I completely forgot why I disliked the community.

It was up until the Isabelle reveal that I remembered why I really dislike certain parts of the smash community and comments like yours.

 

[Bolshoi]

Thank you for making this thread.

I will tell you a story when I went to cancel y subscription of my cellphone provider to is similar to this.

When I tried to stop it. The salesman was telling me... - you really wanna put end to 9 years of services... after all we done for you.
He was trying to shame me into submission, So I told him he was just trying to pressure me... He starts to freak out and yell at his coworker for support like I offended is whole god damn life !

Now we all can agreed on something... I do not own them anything and it not ungrateful to switch provider because the situations fits your need. YOU ARE PAYING for a service. It not charity. It not like mom making you hot coco or daddy making you chicken wing to spend time with them, and make you smile.

You are paying a Business for a service, they don't do it from their bottom of their heart, they do it to make money, it a businesses, that what they do.

Now Sakurai, you have every rights to admire the guy. But, he is not your friend. He does put hearth and passion into his product, but that is. It not for YOU specifically. He is not doing this for charity, He is making a product that he is passionate but we gotta paid money, and a good amount, and we are customers.

Work in the service field and work in the creative field are very, VERY different beasts. If a creator is not allowed to helm their creation, you get a crappy product. This has been seen for years in both games and movies. And the customer is not always right. I've heard many stories about people who commission artwork, and demand things that end up ruining the picture. Then they get mad that the picture was ruined when it was exactly what they asked for.

 

[UserKev]

As critically hard as Sakurai worked on the game, I still find my self disappointed at the same balance of my hype. The stages and Classic Mode is what makes the game feel "Ultimate" for me while some of third party characters make it feel try hard. Dixie Kong and Skull Kid are missing. I'm also starting to see the importance of Geno because he's noticeably a Smash character. I'm happy for Ken and Incineroar but it would have been better if they were revealed early on. I'm so glad K. Rool and Ridley are in because its them that remind of that "Ultimate" intent.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I will be truly disappointed if:

-Online play is still a laggy mess

-The game has bugs like Brawl did

-Character balance patches come too slowly or, god help us, don't come at all

Sakurai is no stranger to having his late-game character reveals be underwhelming, though I feel like most people dared to hope that the Grinch leak was real because two of the biggest (no pun intended) never-evers, Ridley and KKR, got into the game after most people being convinced neither would ever happen due to relevance or just being too damn big.

But again, more than anything, disappointment will come if they don't keep this game as esports capable as possible, mainly in staying on top of blatant imbalances.

They confirmed that they would balance the game in the direct, so patches will be coming. And even then, the existence of DLC pretty much warrants them.

 

[osby]

I will be truly disappointed if:

-Online play is still a laggy mess

-The game has bugs like Brawl did

-Character balance patches come too slowly or, god help us, don't come at all

Sakurai is no stranger to having his late-game character reveals be underwhelming, though I feel like most people dared to hope that the Grinch leak was real because two of the biggest (no pun intended) never-evers, Ridley and KKR, got into the game after most people being convinced neither would ever happen due to relevance or just being too damn big.

But again, more than anything, disappointment will come if they don't keep this game as esports capable as possible, mainly in staying on top of blatant imbalances.

-Online play is a laggy mess in every Smash game

-Every Smash game has bugs.

-Balance patches WILL come, Sakurai said that much

 

[Polan]

as someone who's three most wanted either got AT'ed, ignored or passed over for someone else...get over it ya babies. this is a big ass roster, you'll find someone there you'll like. if you don't like anyone though, just don't buy the game. no one is holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to buy it anyway.

 

[Oddball]

Out of all the characters, Isabella is the most disappointing. She is not a fighter and honestly I don't see anyone liking her except pre-teen girls.

You say that like you're against pre-teen girls playing the game.

 

[smileMasky]

I for one agree with OP the only people I see as ungrateful is the ones who denounce Mr Sakurai's and the smash teams work. Though I may not have my most wanted character in the game I still love the series. It's not the end of the world. So it's best to enjoy what we do have.

 

[Deleted member]

The main thing that miffs me is when people get outright angry about confirmations/deconfirmations to the extent that they feel they were "insulted" personally by Sakurai and his team.

I think a lot of people overestimate their role in the community when they think stuff like an assist trophy is developed out of spite to the consumer and not anything else.

Disappointments and lacking hype I can understand. Taking everything personally I can't take seriously, and people need to learn to get over themselves.

 

[volbound1700]

Honestly, Online play is overrated. The best part of Smash is getting a group of friends together at your place to play. I had a party the other night and we have 5 people going at it (I am stuck with 5 controllers, 4 Gamecube hook-ins and the Wii U pad).

 

[Wyoming]

Honestly, Online play is overrated. The best part of Smash is getting a group of friends together at your place to play. I had a party the other night and we have 5 people going at it (I am stuck with 5 controllers, 4 Gamecube hook-ins and the Wii U pad).

Yeah but I don't have 3-4 people to come over regularly enough and some of us like to play in the comfort of our own homes with voice chat.

 

[volbound1700]

Yeah but I don't have 3-4 people to come over regularly enough and some of us like to play in the comfort of our own homes with voice chat.

Understood. Smash has been weak in this arena for some time.

 

[Wyoming]

The custom lobbies and arenas are definitely a big improvement for variety and proper matches. No longer stuck on Omegas when Battlefield forms and Hazards off are now another competitive option.

People are fearmongering Sakurai's "you may not always match with who you want" statement, sadly. That's only if you are the only person looking for a specific rule set. There is a reason why preferred rules is an on/off option.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

I think the main issue is that poor marketing decisions were made, as others have implied. I’m of the opinion that Kencineroar should have been shown in August while K. Rool and the Castlevania content should have been shown during the last Direct. All the highly requested characters who became assists should have been shown off earlier. The earlier directs were also more exciting and action packed, while the last one dragged on with the excruciating detail that Sakurai went into regarding the modes and options. The early Directs plus the Grinch leak made expectations way too high.


I do think that Sakurai has reasons for not putting certain popular characters into the roster, such as inability to design an accurate or interesting move set, relations with studios/companies, etc. I was an Incineroar doubter, but after seeing the trailer, I’m a believer, and after seeing how creative he got with the P Plant, it kind of makes some sense. Would Shadow or Bandana Dee (just examples) have been that fun and interesting? Hard to say. We’re not the developers, so who knows. I know there have been some roster misfires over the years, but I think there are always reasons for the decisions they make.

 

[Captain Shades]

Sorry I’m late but I mine as well reply to StormC and EricTheGamerman

You're certainly allowed to be as disappointed as you are though. My response wasn't to say anything badly about your response, just sort of offering my perspective. For characters, the fans undoubtedly demanded that characters return, even Pichu and Young Link. Bringing everyone back was a fan move, and again, making sure the unique move sets of Smash are retained is important in offering diversity I believe. They may not be from the most interesting characters or most relevant ones, but Wii Fit Trainer plays unique enough that you're actively cutting big pieces of content game to game if you remove her. I don't think this applies when making new characters though, as while yes new unique move sets can be introduced, I don't think that should take priority over fan picks in...the ya know... fan service game specifically noted this installment for listening to fans (Hence Piranha Plant falls completely flat and is completely misplaced on this roster at this point).

I’m not saying that weird picks should take up the full roster, but we should have had at least one in the base. Many people, including myself feel that Smash is a collection of Nintendo history and the thing that truly sets Smash apart is its ability to make anyone a fighter. Plus many fan favorites come from choices that, lets be honest, would never have been considered to any wide scale by the community. Mr. Game & Watch is an absolute fan favorite, but had he not been in Melee, I don’t think anyone would have said that we need a Game & Watch rep. R.O.B. is in the same boat, an important character as he did put NESs on store shelves, but I doubt the community would ever give him a chance. The only character that could’ve maybe made it was Duck Hunt, but I feel he became popular due to the ‘retro picks’ of Smash. But Ice Climbers, Mr. G& W, Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B., Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, heck maybe even Captain Falcon and Ness probably would have been left in the dust had Sakurai just chosen popular characters. I guess my point is that I don’t think the community always knows what they want,so these retro picks allow for more unknowns to make a name for themselves and offer something completely unique. Also Piranha Plant seems fine, I love the character as he’s exactly what I wanted in the base, and many were waiting for a crazy pick like the plant to happen.

I'd say Duck Hunt and MGAW stand the tallest here. Like I said, Duck Hunt is an iconic game that people still remember after 30 years, along with the dog. The Game And Watch series has a rich history spanning decades, if you include the collections. Jigglypuff was created with assets borrowed from Kirby and Ice Climbers come from a mediocre, forgotten NES title whose original implementation in Smash was completely broken. R.O.B. exists and that's all about I can say regarding arguably the most forgettable Smash character ever (to the point where someone once made a fake leak that forgot to include him and people took hours to realize he wasn't there). I didn't lose sleep when Ice Climbers was cut and I probably wouldn't with Jigglypuff or R.O.B., but they're here, and they have fans, so what's done is done.

Ehh... I guess different strokes for different folks on this one. I feel that weird characters do add more personality to the roster that you couldn’t get with a K Rool or Ridley, as who they are and they fight isn’t easily determined by the fan community. It adds some mystery to speculation and adds uniqueness to the roster. Also your being a little harsh on R.O.B., I mean he did put the NES on store shelves, and was part of the trio to make it huge; Mario, Duck Hunt, and R.O.B.. I think that should warrant some credit.

I also absolutely fundamentally disagree that Charizard carries the Pokemon Trainer. Squirtle and Ivysaur do lots of good, and are often the objectively better picks than Charizard from what I've seen on competitive matches with Ultimate so far. You can not like them all you want, but Charizard isn't the only important one of the trio by far. Pokemon probably does indeed have too many reps, and seeing four added from the last game is insane (Even if three are just returning). But again, the Everyone is Here is undoubtedly one of the most fan pleasing and listening to the fans moves that Sakurai has done. I definitely can understand personal disappointment at the sentiment as you don't like the characters (Though it's really just the four we weren't expecting you seem to have such a dislike for). I just believe that is Sakurai actually living up to his promise of developing something for the fans in keeping the roster complete, and maybe the wrong place to bring fault to him (I believe you did mention that this was a fan issue, and I completely agree there).

Charizard does seem like he carriers Pokémon Trainer. I remember back in the Smash 4 days when everyone was completely okay with just Charizard as he’s the big Pokémon. They usually said that very few liked Squirtle and Ivysaur has always been treated as a joke, a character no one should play as unless they’re weird. People were also disappointed by the reveal of Pokémon Trainer as he gives Charizard less to use in his tool kit, killing the Charizard mains of 4. While I personally like Squirtle the best, it seems most were just in it for Charizard and believe the Trainer holds him back. As for the Everyone is here thing, I don’t know if I agree. It seemed like people were willing to leave Pokémon Trainer in the past, most hated Pichu as he was purposely terrible and just added to Melee’s clones, and Young Link basically has a better replacement in Toon Link. The only characters the masses seemed to want come back were Snake and Wolf, along with Climbers, as they all had non-intrusive unique move sets along with being very iconic characters. I’m sure other characters had fans, but they didn’t seem to come out and even talking to people on this thread it seems like most just like the motto because that means Snake and Wolf come back and not much else.

Spirits was never actually hyped up by Sakurai though. ALL he said prior to reveal was that he would reveal it later. Fans went completely nuts with the ideas and made the expectations. While a fair point to assume it would be more substantial after seeing it be a main menu option and fitting with idea of the Ultimate Smash game, Spirits itself is the greatest victim of hype I've seen. Doesn't make it inherently a better mode, but we also were promised nothing with it. I'm disappointed in the direction of Spirits, but it was clearly designed with a lot of love and care, and I imagine took development time conceiving of all these weird scenarios. It's different from what most of us hoped for and wanted, and that's just the reality of the situation. Which is a shame... I don't think Spirits is some easy copy/paste mode from the internet, and all third party characters are going to require rights to be determined as well even if it is just essentially a PNG image.

It was a bit hyped though, before its announcement Sakurai was revealing things that lead to tons of speculation. I mean we had a Dracula boss fight that seemed to take place on a completely different stage from the one we see at the beginning of Simon’s trailer. There was also Rathalos and how he was a huge boss fight that takes place on a stage that doesn’t exist. Mix in the Everyone is dying in very Subspace like cutscenes and I think people had reason to believe we’d get a new adventure mode, I mean come on, bosses, entirely new terrain characters are wondering on, very story mode like cutscenes where characters are getting picked off by villains from the various franchises, and the mode having a huge presence on the menu, seem to hint at these sort of things. It doesn’t help that Spirits doesn’t even look that new. It seems like events mode, with PNG images. Even the things the spirits do are not new to the series and have been there since Brawl as stickers and equipment both buffed up and gave weird attributes to characters. I mean maybe it’ll be fun, but I can’t help but feel immense disappointment in how Spirits just seems to repackage old content and call it unique.

I know why Nintendo does this. They got caught with their pants down during the Wii U era for having nothing for long stretches of time, and they want a better release schedule. The shot so many big titles off last year and have so many in development now that 2018 just kind of got screwed, so they had to release SOMETHING. Thus Kirby Star Allies and Mario Tennis Aces are rushed out to consumers despite needing more time in the oven once they've established a firm and entertaining foundation for the game. They can add content post launch to keep the more hardcore fans entertained, while just giving fans something to play first party wise. When the alternative is nothing but ports, I think their decision makes sense. They're rushing the smaller games to give fans something to play, which is a shame, but for the most part they've done a good job of not charging extra for the new content. The incomplete games on launch may feel bad, but they aren't just charging for updates and aren't utilizing micro-transactions. Their DLC practices involve substantial content usually so you feel like you have a reason to pay for new content if you do. It's scummy, but these days that's actually being the good guy as ****ed up as that is.

This is actually somewhat false, and something the YouTuber, TheBitBlock went over. Nintendo’s DLC for Aces was the primary target though. Aces’s DLC includes characters you can get a month early by playing online and it has specific online events, which events are take directly from previous enteries in the Tennis franchise. Why is this a problem, well Nintendo has now put a pay wall on online, and since most don’t want to pay for their online service due to it having nothing to offer, not even servers for their biggest online game, Splatoon 2, they are now locking content to online exclusives to force people to pay.

To talk about the other titles, both Kirby and ARMS are still incomplete to this day even with the free DLC. Kirby has half the amount of content of any regular entry still as Dream Friends only add 3 new characters each with 1 new stage, so you’d get 9 new stages which reallly isn’t a lot. Mix in the fact that all those stages are built to be recreations of previous levels which are poorly done as the DLC just reuses asserts of the same 4 worlds, and the DLC isn’t substantial in any way. ARMS has always felt unfinished due to the lack of any real modes, so them adding free characters isn’t really helping the game survive per say.

 

[Frostwraith]

The fact that a roster of 70+ characters still manages to leave people wanting certain characters just shows how there are so many potential characters that even a huge roster is unable to satisfy all the fans. And the thing is, even if some of the current characters were to be cut, there would be dissatisfaction as people may grow to like a certain character even if they were completely unexpected at first, hence why the "everyone is here" trailer brought so much hype to the game, although still to the dismay of other fans' less favorable opinions on characters such as Corrin or Bayonetta.

As it's been said in this thread, the development team should not be completely submissive to the fanbase, as it's unrealistic and limits their creativity. For example, I'm finding Piranha Plant to be one of the most hyped characters for me because of how unique and completely different character he is. For characters like Ridley or K. Rool, I don't really have much of an attachment to them and their movesets look quite predictable as everyone in this fanbase discussed those characters to death. This said, they still brought a lot of excitement for long time fans who were so invested in having them included in Smash and being able to play as them after so long.

The fact each character can have a different target audience and will bring excitement from different groups of people inevitably means that some people will be favored over others. And development resources are limited, so a character's inclusion often is at the price of another character that ends on the chopping block. I think this is why clones/echoes often are included as they can throw a bone to certain fans without a significant cost. Perhaps, having Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus and Ken all at once is a better solution than sacrificing even more characters for someone like Geno. Melee could've had a smaller roster by omitting its 6 clones in favor of a single character, after all.

There's much to love about Smash Bros. Ultimate, but even the ultimate game is not without its flaws, so as long as people acknowledge them in a civil manner, I think then we can have a conversation on how can we improve an already great game to be even greater. That's why criticism should be balanced: Sakurai is no god, but he's nonetheless a skilled and hardworking game designer. Still, no matter how talented he may be, he does make mistakes and listens to our feedback, but that shouldn't chain him into submission to what we want because he may have ideas that we may not have thought of. This is why inclusions of characters like K. Rool and Ridley are as important as inclusions of unexpected characters like Piranha Plant or Wii Fit Trainer. The game benefits from that as a product.

This said, as more information has now become available in regards to Ultimate, I do have some criticisms to make about the game, namely the lack of certain modes that were staples of the series, including the classic Home-Run Contest. Since Brawl and to a further extent in 3DS/Wii U, the fact some songs are included in cut shortened versions as opposed to their full version puts a stain in what otherwise is a sublime music selection, something Ultimate didn't rectify, which is very disheartening to me as a big video game music fan.

On the other hand, the character and stage rosters are insane, there's a lot of new options to explore, opening plenty of new possibilities, so in the end, it is a matter of letting out a message on "what is right" and "what is wrong" with the game, so we can ensure that the positives aren't tinkered with and potentially ruined but at the same time let it be known that a few things can be ironed out and be perfected.

By praising Sakurai as a perfect god, we let the flaws go unchallenged, but by blindly hating on the game, we foster a hostile environment and fail to recognize what has been done right with the game and risk potentially alienating changes as Sakurai and team try to appease to us.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I do hope that the 100+ stages will be enough to justify the potential loss of the beloved stage builder. I was kinda looking forward to that mode the most.

You say that like you're against pre-teen girls playing the game.

"SLAMMED 'EM" ~Pokemon Battle Revolution Announcer, 2006.

 

[S_B]

-Online play is a laggy mess in every Smash game

-Every Smash game has bugs.

-Balance patches WILL come, Sakurai said that much

Yes, but this time we're PAYING for online play so there's a precedent for it to not be crap.

Also, there's bugs and then there's Brawl bugs, where a literal game-breaker like someone getting hit out of Bowser's flying slam before he goes off the bottom of the screen will cause Bowser to disappear and the game cannot end until the other players suicide.

And yes, I'm sure there will be balance patches.

I was making a list of the criteria for the game itself TRULY disappointing me, not things I expect will happen.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Out of all the characters, Isabella is the most disappointing. She is not a fighter and honestly I don't see anyone liking her except pre-teen girls. Baby character overall. Skullkid would have been a FAR better pick. I am alright with the Piranha Plant, especially as a gimick character.

I wish I could trade Dark Samus, Ken, Isabella, and Incineroar for Dixie Kong, Isaac, Skullkid, and Badanna Dee. Far better options over those four.

I also think there are really three third-party that are far ahead of the others at the moment in fan support and how they fit in the game. Banjo, Geno, and Rayman. However, I am not sure if we will get any of them as DLC which is very unfortunate.

A far better pick for YOU. You're horridly underselling the appeal of Isabelle too. She gets a ton of hate like Ken and Incineroar for not being what fans wanted at that specific moment. That doesn't make her a bad character choice when she is one of Nintendo's most popular new characters, and I know multiple people excited by the idea of playing as her. You can be as disappointed with her and the general direction of Smash towards newer characters all you want, that doesn't make her an objectively bad pick through the eyes of Nintendo's current situation.

I mean, yeah, most of us would be probably trade two Echo fighters for fully formed unique fighters, but that's not how it works at all when you have limited development time. An Echo fighter does not equal to a unique fighter no matter how you try to sell it. Dark Samus has been requested and mentioned for years, so that's another fan pick. The remaining three I've expressed above as to why they're in and why they make sense. The newcomers were never going to be ALL fan picks as much as some of us wanted that to be the truth.

I just think you're over generalizing as to what a GOOD pick is. You can say, "In my opinion" or "Personally", but you're speaking as if you speak for some majority of fans. And actively attacking a character like Isabelle in the process is a bad look even if you dislike her.

And I understand the sentiment with DLC, but we know NOTHING about the other five fighters other than Verge's comments. The only thing he is sure about is Square, and most picks in that field would make fans happy (Including potentially Geno).

I do understand the disappointment of characters, I really do as I wish Sakurai could put his foot down and say that we don't need another Pokemon and include someone else. Or even just hold off on a decision like Corrin, but they're here to stay and they have their fans just like any other character.

The custom lobbies and arenas are definitely a big improvement for variety and proper matches. No longer stuck on Omegas when Battlefield forms and Hazards off are now another competitive option.

People are fearmongering Sakurai's "you may not always match with who you want" statement, sadly. That's only if you are the only person looking for a specific rule set. There is a reason why preferred rules is an on/off option.

My bigger issue is that Online in 2018 should at least have some sort of reasonable option selection. Having basic options like a no items For Glory mode that guarantees you the match you want regardless of how long the wait time may be in addition to the current system isn't a bad idea. I would have like to have seen more options and care given to the choices sort of thing. A game like COD has numerous modes and options, and while they aren't always super populated, you know what you're getting when you queue in.

But this is Nintendo we're talking about, so I'm not surprised at the reality and it should hopefully work better in practice for the more standard rules that people want.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The only exception to all of this are Waluigi fans acting like they've been the victim of some kind of injustice since he's not in the game. Now that's ungrateful.

 

[Luigifan18]

The only exception to all of this are Waluigi fans acting like they've been the victim of some kind of injustice since he's not in the game. Now that's ungrateful.

He's in the game, he's just not playable. Which is more than can be said for Vaati.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

He's in the game, he's just not playable. Which is more than can be said for Vaati.

True. But some of them are calling for Sakurai to be harassed, which is unacceptable.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Sorry I’m late but I mine as well reply to StormC and EricTheGamerman


I’m not saying that weird picks should take up the full roster, but we should have had at least one in the base. Many people, including myself feel that Smash is a collection of Nintendo history and the thing that truly sets Smash apart is its ability to make anyone a fighter. Plus many fan favorites come from choices that, lets be honest, would never have been considered to any wide scale by the community. Mr. Game & Watch is an absolute fan favorite, but had he not been in Melee, I don’t think anyone would have said that we need a Game & Watch rep. R.O.B. is in the same boat, an important character as he did put NESs on store shelves, but I doubt the community would ever give him a chance. The only character that could’ve maybe made it was Duck Hunt, but I feel he became popular due to the ‘retro picks’ of Smash. But Ice Climbers, Mr. G& W, Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B., Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, heck maybe even Captain Falcon and Ness probably would have been left in the dust had Sakurai just chosen popular characters. I guess my point is that I don’t think the community always knows what they want,so these retro picks allow for more unknowns to make a name for themselves and offer something completely unique. Also Piranha Plant seems fine, I love the character as he’s exactly what I wanted in the base, and many were waiting for a crazy pick like the plant to happen.

Ehh... I guess different strokes for different folks on this one. I feel that weird characters do add more personality to the roster that you couldn’t get with a K Rool or Ridley, as who they are and they fight isn’t easily determined by the fan community. It adds some mystery to speculation and adds uniqueness to the roster. Also your being a little harsh on R.O.B., I mean he did put the NES on store shelves, and was part of the trio to make it huge; Mario, Duck Hunt, and R.O.B.. I think that should warrant some credit.


Charizard does seem like he carriers Pokémon Trainer. I remember back in the Smash 4 days when everyone was completely okay with just Charizard as he’s the big Pokémon. They usually said that very few liked Squirtle and Ivysaur has always been treated as a joke, a character no one should play as unless they’re weird. People were also disappointed by the reveal of Pokémon Trainer as he gives Charizard less to use in his tool kit, killing the Charizard mains of 4. While I personally like Squirtle the best, it seems most were just in it for Charizard and believe the Trainer holds him back. As for the Everyone is here thing, I don’t know if I agree. It seemed like people were willing to leave Pokémon Trainer in the past, most hated Pichu as he was purposely terrible and just added to Melee’s clones, and Young Link basically has a better replacement in Toon Link. The only characters the masses seemed to want come back were Snake and Wolf, along with Climbers, as they all had non-intrusive unique move sets along with being very iconic characters. I’m sure other characters had fans, but they didn’t seem to come out and even talking to people on this thread it seems like most just like the motto because that means Snake and Wolf come back and not much else.


It was a bit hyped though, before its announcement Sakurai was revealing things that lead to tons of speculation. I mean we had a Dracula boss fight that seemed to take place on a completely different stage from the one we see at the beginning of Simon’s trailer. There was also Rathalos and how he was a huge boss fight that takes place on a stage that doesn’t exist. Mix in the Everyone is dying in very Subspace like cutscenes and I think people had reason to believe we’d get a new adventure mode, I mean come on, bosses, entirely new terrain characters are wondering on, very story mode like cutscenes where characters are getting picked off by villains from the various franchises, and the mode having a huge presence on the menu, seem to hint at these sort of things. It doesn’t help that Spirits doesn’t even look that new. It seems like events mode, with PNG images. Even the things the spirits do are not new to the series and have been there since Brawl as stickers and equipment both buffed up and gave weird attributes to characters. I mean maybe it’ll be fun, but I can’t help but feel immense disappointment in how Spirits just seems to repackage old content and call it unique.


This is actually somewhat false, and something the YouTuber, TheBitBlock went over. Nintendo’s DLC for Aces was the primary target though. Aces’s DLC includes characters you can get a month early by playing online and it has specific online events, which events are take directly from previous enteries in the Tennis franchise. Why is this a problem, well Nintendo has now put a pay wall on online, and since most don’t want to pay for their online service due to it having nothing to offer, not even servers for their biggest online game, Splatoon 2, they are now locking content to online exclusives to force people to pay.

To talk about the other titles, both Kirby and ARMS are still incomplete to this day even with the free DLC. Kirby has half the amount of content of any regular entry still as Dream Friends only add 3 new characters each with 1 new stage, so you’d get 9 new stages which reallly isn’t a lot. Mix in the fact that all those stages are built to be recreations of previous levels which are poorly done as the DLC just reuses asserts of the same 4 worlds, and the DLC isn’t substantial in any way. ARMS has always felt unfinished due to the lack of any real modes, so them adding free characters isn’t really helping the game survive per say.

Sorry for the delayed response, I wanted the time to properly respond and haven't had it today.

On the first point, I'll generally agree. Piranha Plant is actually a pretty amazing addition, and I do believe that we should embrace the weird characters of Smash from game to game. Smash shouldn't necessarily revolve around fan picks all the time as that would have made us miss out on several amazing characters. I'm down for the unique choices in Smash, more than most. ROB is one of my favorite characters in Smash for example. I just think the reveal itself was part of the issue. Including those unique choices is fine, including Pokemon is fine, etc. But when you have a game that has limited spots for newcomers and has been stated to be for the fans using the ballot for reference, I see where people become disappointed and that maybe those traditional choices weren't the best ones for the moment. Smash has a big community of people, with a handful of very popular characters within that community, and they had laid their hopes and dreams on this roster: The Wish Fulfillment to end them all and give characters that would never other wise have a chance would get a chance. He seemed to push the "Fans" a lot prior to the release, so while I agree with the more unique choices, some of those fans choices may have been the better priority for the base and then the different ones for DLC. But again, I do love the unique characters so I won't argue with you too much.


As for the Pokemon Trainer situation, I saw Charizard as accepted for a couple of reasons. The first being the expectation of cuts. The second being the Stamina mechanic for Pokemon Trainer ruined all three characters by not allowing a main to exist with the characters. That's how Charizard got held back, not the single Down-B move missing (I know people do take issue with this sometimes, but it's a relatively minor piece of a move set and Rock Smash wasn't always the best move in my experience). I mean here's some examples of discussion on the Trainer:

Prior to E3 Discussion:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/89q48z/pokemon_trainer_return_discussion/

Some Discussion Here During Smash 4 DLC:
https://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-miss-the-pokemon-trainer.403583/

Here's a good video from the Smash Invitational at this E3 Showing off a preference to Squirtle and Ivysaur on a higher level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wum_Ly7smSc

My point being, Pokemon Trainer doesn't necessarily hold back any single character in it's existence. Most people who had problems with the character disliked the fatigue and the switching mechanic as a whole. While I agree with the last part, they've removed the fatigue making it easier to just stick with who you want with the single concession being the lack of a Down-B move (Which in Charizard's case was pretty situational). People tend to miss Squirtle and be super excited by his return to from what I've seen. I'm just saying all aspects of Pokemon Trainer had fans and support.

Plus again, my bigger point here is that, OK, you have Wolf, Snake, and Ice Climbers back in. You're four away from being able to say "Everyone is Here" at that point. Pichu and Young Link are Melee semi-clones that don't require work and indeed were desired by some people. They placed decently on the overall polling at the higher numbers, so again, why when you're that close to being able to say you have everyone would you stop. I doubt that cutting those four would have gotten us another character seeing as those were already developed in the past and conceived of.


As for the Nintendo situation. Their new paid online is one thing entirely different from the way they've approached DLC in the past. It's a horrible scummy tactic, but that is it's own ENTIRE conversation and Nintendo looked at what other companies were doing and acted accordingly. Their service is pretty ****, but again, that's a removed argument I think.

The content itself isn't be charged for is my point, and generally speaking you're paying for online to access online. The paid content is part of that, but not necessarily the incentive to purchase. You still get the updates for games and can use the content that they roll out for single player for the most part. And again, you're not paying for the individual items.

How complete a game is can be super subjective too. Mario Tennis Aces was actually pretty complete despite the fact its story was super subpar for example. ARMS prioritized their own gameplay mechanics above everything else, so it makes sense within that context. How complete you expect it to be depends on how you compare it to other fighting games, and while yeah, I think it's pretty barebones, it also makes sense as a modern fighting game. Kirby is a complete game too, it's just short. Shorter games are not equal to incomplete games. Rushed and disappointing, yes. But that's not an incomplete game perse and in this day and age, them not shoving more pieces of the game down our throats with excessive DLC and microtransactions and just giving it to us in more commendable (Again, unfortunately, I agree that it is ****ty and shouldn't be this way, but it's also a sign of the times).