You are not "Ungrateful" for being Disappointed

[FatNerd]

hi steve fans,i shouldn't be here right now for some reason,i'm sorry for what behavior we had when whe thought grinch leaks was legit,for me i acting a little bite like an *** about minecraft before the grinch leaks because i thought minecraft is full of immature kids and some bull**** i said,but when i see banjo supporter trolling and harassing every steve supporter i think that we are not so much better anyways,so for me steve will be in smash DLC not Banjo even if vergeben isn't sure if steve will be playable because he have his source that some minecraft content will be in the game ,it's very confirmed that steve will be in DLC pack,think about it Minecraft content in smash it's very confirmed that Steve will be playable not banjo,because nintendo only interest in DLC packs is the Mainstream gaming,not the oldest games,i know what you will say:*But DLC packs will not only focuses about Mainstream gaming looks mewtwo was not very mainstream*Pokemon is a very Mainstream game whatever pokemon they are olds or news .Pokemon is very Mainstream,like Fire emblem,final fantasy and street figthers they are Mainstream in japan and maybe around the world i don't know, the reason why is that steve will be in smash over Banjo is that Minecraft is very mainstream and not Banjo kazooie because it's an old game, and a figthers from an old games have a very low chances to be in DLC pack in smash, i know some people will not agree with me but we should be realist what nintendo will put in smash DLC and that will be thet figthers who are very marketing around the world and in japan,i was just dissapointed that banjo isn't in the roster and (isaac) too (even if i wasn't a supporter of isaac but his games and the protagonist are interesting) my only hope is that banjo would make it in the next smash game not ultimate and i don't know if smash ultimate is the last game of the series or not it depend the decision of nintendo,but in the next game in 5 or 7 years.You deserve steve to be in smash even if i'm not really fan of this game,i was hoping that he would make it but Nintendo and Microsoft see this as a dead characters and a dead franchise so they prefere to add a figthers to appeals the young audience(even if it's not official) as a banjo supporter i'm proud of you even if your number of supporters is very few compared with Banjo kazooies support,your characters is in the game as DLC characters and i didn't thought that he would make it but he did and it's very weird because nobody in smash forum not many ppls talks about Minecraft in smash so i thinks it's sakurai and nintendo decision they can add whatever they wants.so i hope that you read my messagein. that is my first longest message on this forum and i hope that could bring you something in your minds and sorry if i did some false of writing in english *i'm french* so good bye and congratulation for Steve and yours supporters.

Good bye (sorry if this message isn't supposed to be here but i hope it would attract some steve and banjo supporters attention)

 

[SuperSceptile15]

hi steve fans,i shouldn't be here right now for some reason,i'm sorry for what behavior we had when whe thought grinch leaks was legit,for me i acting a little bite like an *** about minecraft before the grinch leaks because i thought minecraft is full of immature kids and some bull**** i said,but when i see banjo supporter trolling and harassing every steve supporter i think that we are not so much better anyways,so for me steve will be in smash DLC not Banjo even if vergeben isn't sure if steve will be playable because he have his source that some minecraft content will be in the game ,it's very confirmed that steve will be in DLC pack,think about it Minecraft content in smash it's very confirmed that Steve will be playable not banjo,because nintendo only interest in DLC packs is the Mainstream gaming,not the oldest games,i know what you will say:*But DLC packs will not only focuses about Mainstream gaming looks mewtwo was not very mainstream*Pokemon is a very Mainstream game whatever pokemon they are olds or news .Pokemon is very Mainstream,like Fire emblem,final fantasy and street figthers they are Mainstream in japan and maybe around the world i don't know, the reason why is that steve will be in smash over Banjo is that Minecraft is very mainstream and not Banjo kazooie because it's an old game, and a figthers from an old games have a very low chances to be in DLC pack in smash, i know some people will not agree with me but we should be realist what nintendo will put in smash DLC and that will be thet figthers who are very marketing around the world and in japan,i was just dissapointed that banjo isn't in the roster and (isaac) too (even if i wasn't a supporter of isaac but his games and the protagonist are interesting) my only hope is that banjo would make it in the next smash game not ultimate and i don't know if smash ultimate is the last game of the series or not it depend the decision of nintendo,but in the next game in 5 or 7 years.You deserve steve to be in smash even if i'm not really fan of this game,i was hoping that he would make it but Nintendo and Microsoft see this as a dead characters and a dead franchise so they prefere to add a figthers to appeals the young audience(even if it's not official) as a banjo supporter i'm proud of you even if your number of supporters is very few compared with Banjo kazooies support,your characters is in the game as DLC characters and i didn't thought that he would make it but he did and it's very weird because nobody in smash forum not many ppls talks about Minecraft in smash so i thinks it's sakurai and nintendo decision they can add whatever they wants.so i hope that you read my messagein. that is my first longest message on this forum and i hope that could bring you something in your minds and sorry if i did some false of writing in english *i'm french* so good bye and congratulation for Steve and yours supporters.

Good bye (sorry if this message isn't supposed to be here but i hope it would attract some steve and banjo supporters)

I'm really sorry to hear that. I'm sure most Banjo fans are nice people and aren't like that, though. People really tend to get too emotionally attached to fictional characters, huh?

 

[GothicSlenderman]

I don't know about a second fighter pass happening. After the first one, there will be EIGHTY-TWO characters (75 being unique). I feel like any more would just be too much.

Also true, honestly it's a miracle we even got DLC announced in the first place

 

[S_B]

I think Piranha Plant actually looks fun to play, but make no mistake: PP is either secretly a character Sakurai wanted in the game for years and added it because this is Sakurai's last SSB game, or it's a gigantic, deliberate middle finger to everyone who ever supported an "irrelevant" character like Isaac or Geno.

Compared to PP, NO character that actually has a NAME is irrelevant.

I feel insanely lucky that my fat reptiles were added to the game. Up until the last direct, I thought Sakurai was actually listening to the fans when it came to characters he was adding but we quickly found out that THAT sure wasn't true.

My undying sympathy to Geno, Isaac, and Banjo fans. You folks got an awfully raw deal...

 

[Rocketjay8]

I think Piranha Plant actually looks fun to play, but make no mistake: PP is either secretly a character Sakurai wanted in the game for years and added it because this is Sakurai's last SSB game, or it's a gigantic, deliberate middle finger to everyone who ever supported an "irrelevant" character like Isaac or Geno.

Compared to PP, NO character that actually has a NAME is irrelevant.

I feel insanely lucky that my fat reptiles were added to the game. Up until the last direct, I thought Sakurai was actually listening to the fans when it came to characters he was adding but we quickly found out that THAT sure wasn't true.

My undying sympathy to Geno, Isaac, and Banjo fans. You folks got an awfully raw deal...

At least Geno and Banjo has a slight chance for DLC.

Isaac though...well at least they got an assist trophy.

 

[S_B]

At least Geno and Banjo has a slight chance for DLC.

Isaac though...well at least they got an assist trophy.

I feel like DLC is going to almost exclusively be 3rd party characters from active franchises. The only exception will be the next sword lord from the new FE game.

If these characters didn't make it into the base roster, I don't feel their chances are very good.

 

[Dee Dude]

What’s more ridiculous is that people threw the relevancy argument out the window when K.Rool got confirmed but now that PP got in, people are joking that he got in over your “obscure/niche” character since he’s a common iconic Mario enemy.

That said, PP is growing on me. I wish Sakurai would’ve atleast given it a distinct look from other PPs.

 

[pap64]

THANK. YOU.

Seriously, people need to tell the difference between harassment and salty anger from genuine criticism.

Yes, Sakurai and his team work too damn hard, yes Ultimate has an incredible roster, yes there will be a lot of options, yes we are grateful the game exists. STILL that doesn't mean that we can't express annoyances, issues and concerns cause no game is perfect, no game is without its flaws and no game comes without any issues, whether it be because it was rushed to market or because it had issues so bad they had to fix it with day one patches.

That kind of mentality stuns the growth of critical thinking because you can still love something to death and still have issues with it. Ultimate is no exception. People should chill.

 

[Elin]

being ungrateful is means you’re starting flamewars or sending threats to sakurai’s twitter

not for being disappointed that the leak that had even me convinced was a hoax (and that was only because it wasn’t a ‘generic’ leak)

i agree with you wholeheartedly, op, and it’s good others agree too

 

[pap64]

being ungrateful is means you’re starting flamewars or sending threats to sakurai’s twitter

not for being disappointed that the leak that had even me convinced was a hoax (and that was only because it wasn’t a ‘generic’ leak)

i agree with you wholeheartedly, op, and it’s good others agree too

Which also goes to how people treated the leaks ("team fake" vs "team real"). The debates between the two have been terrible to say the least, especially when one of the threads here said to "pick a side, no gray areas", because even if the banner leak was very convincing there was always that margin of error that proved it to be fake. Yet people had to pick between to extremes without any kind of discussion going on.

Hence why I condemn that the team at GameXplain get harassed, humiliated, threatened etc. but I don't forgive their actions and attitudes. If they believed the leak was fake, they could have easily handled it like everyone else did; they could have explain how the leak came to be, what it claimed to be, then talk about how it could be real or it could be fake. But the arrogance just made things worse and gave credence to a leak that was fake all along.

And I say this as a former gaming journalist; if we had to discuss a rumor or leak on a news story we first had a story meeting, then come to an agreement and if we got the good to write the story, we made sure that it didn't show any reporter or site bias. We were allowed to talk all we want on the podcasts, but we made sure we owned those comments, because at the end of the day, sites and channels can claim "THE OPINIONS PRESENTED ON THIS SHOW DO NOT REPRESENT THE COMPANY ETC ETC", but people will still associate something good or bad with the company, not the individual. Hence why people are saying "PEOPLE SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO GAMEXPLAIN" or "GAMEXPLAINS WERE JERKS!" instead of saying "Andre was being a jerk on Twitter" or something like that.

Once more, people have the right to be disappointed, to express concern, annoyances etc. as long as it comes from a critical mindset that doesn't aim towards some kind of self-righteous elitist mindset, because being an apologist is also harmful to the company. Like the Switch wouldn't be the hit it is today if Nintendo had not taken to heart the harsh criticisms lobbied at the Wii U.

Criticism is good. Just that thanks to the internet it warped it into something that is to be despised.

 

[S_B]

The Grinch leak is actually scary as a fake because it means that people are now doing things like framing innocent advertising companies and their employees in an effort to make their fake leak more convincing.

And the person who made it can't even step forward and take credit like Omni did because of this.

I do still hope we learn who made it some day, mainly because I want to know what their motivations were.

I also want to know why ACP never issued a public statement squashing the rumor like Marina did...

 

[pap64]

The Grinch leak is actually scary as a fake because it means that people are now doing things like framing innocent advertising companies and their employees in an effort to make their fake leak more convincing.

And the person who made it can't even step forward and take credit like Omni did because of this.

I do still hope we learn who made it some day, mainly because I want to know what their motivations were.

I also want to know why ACP never issued a public statement squashing the rumor like Marina did...

To this day the assets used for that have not been found (that I know of at least) nor has there been a video or post explaining how the leak was created. Usually when a leak is found out to be fake, the person will own to it, explain how they did it, and people often tend to be like "hey, you fooled us good, you are very talented and did a great job!"

But this? Let us not forget that even Universal and Dr. Seuss got wrapped up because now some people have bitter memories of the Grinch because of thos whole issue, never mind the fact that the story existed WAY before Sakurai was likely born.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

I wanted to make a follow up post. While I was disappointed in the direct I'm sure as hell not ungrateful. This looks like the best Smash game roster, gameplay, and stage selection wise. Yes there are some truly ungrateful people and they deserve the heat thrown to them (the people who won't buy the game because 1 character didn't make it, or the people who want Melee 2.0, or the people who won't buy the game because they still view the game as a port, or the people who believed fake leaks that went against everything Sakurai has stated up to that point so had overly high expectations). But we also gotta talk about the people who will defend EVERY decision Sakurai makes and think's he can walk on water and his crap don't stink. Those people are just as bad.

I've seen people who HOUNDED Toad and Bandana Dee fans for wanting "a generic species" or "A Goomba in a hat" yet here we are those SAME people defending Piranha Plant simply because he's in the game and "Well Sakurai made it so he's awesome and we should be grateful we have the AMAZING character known as Piranha Plant in the game" and no I'm not saying you CAN'T enjoy Piranha Plant, he looks to have a fun moveset but you HAVE to at least admit it's possibly the stupidest character to ever be added to Smash and YES it took up a slot of another actual character. Yes I know what the hardcore Sakurai defense force is gonna say "But he is a joke character, every Smash game has a WTF character" but why do we need that? We don't. It's wasted development time plain and simple and Sakurai knows adding a character like that would piss off a good chunk of the fanbase but he did it anyway simply for a laugh. I could think of a DOZEN more worthy/interesting first party additions to add that would please a bigger chunk of fans than that character but nope, "We gotta get those LULZ in GUYZ! Sakurai is GOD!"

 

[pap64]

I wanted to make a follow up post. While I was disappointed in the direct I'm sure as hell not ungrateful. This looks like the best Smash game roster, gameplay, and stage selection wise. Yes there are some truly ungrateful people and they deserve the heat thrown to them (the people who won't buy the game because 1 character didn't make it, or the people who want Melee 2.0, or the people who won't buy the game because they still view the game as a port, or the people who believed fake leaks that went against everything Sakurai has stated up to that point so had overly high expectations). But we also gotta talk about the people who will defend EVERY decision Sakurai makes and think's he can walk on water and his crap don't stink. Those people are just as bad.

I've seen people who HOUNDED Toad and Bandana Dee fans for wanting "a generic species" or "A Goomba in a hat" yet here we are those SAME people defending Piranha Plant simply because he's in the game and "Well Sakurai made it so he's awesome and we should be grateful we have the AMAZING character known as Piranha Plant in the game" and no I'm not saying you CAN'T enjoy Piranha Plant, he looks to have a fun moveset but you HAVE to at least admit it's possibly the stupidest character to ever be added to Smash and YES it took up a slot of another actual character. Yes I know what the hardcore Sakurai defense force is gonna say "But he is a joke character, every Smash game has a WTF character" but why do we need that? We don't. It's wasted development time plain and simple and Sakurai knows adding a character like that would piss off a good chunk of the fanbase but he did it anyway simply for a laugh. I could think of a DOZEN more worthy/interesting first party additions to add that would please a bigger chunk of fans than that character but nope, "We gotta get those LULZ in GUYZ! Sakurai is GOD!"

Once again, THANK YOU.

This happens in all fandoms, so the Smash fandom is not alone in this; it seems that fans either defend a creator so tenaciously it's like they are their god or closest of kin, or they will murder them AND their families if something goes wrong, like we are talking BEYOND "Misery" levels here. What fans NEED to understand is that...

- They have, or never will, own the product. Yeah, you can see the product, you can buy the product, you can be a fan of the product and its creators, but never is it truly yours. It might be your own spiritually and metaphorically, but it is never yours. So fans should understand that, yes, they have the right to criticize creators if they make decisions they don't agree with, but don't be self-righteous in that they have to defend it because "it was a part of who they are as a person".

- Criticism does not equal hatred. The two terms are VASTLY different; criticism is using your mind to come to a conclusion regarding the quality of a product, a thought process or the actions of an individual. Hatred is when something inspires deep emotions of anger and resentment and you HAVE to express it through violence or personal attacks. And yes, people HAVE mixed the two up, but sometimes I feel like you can't say something like "I feel Sakurai should either retire or work on another game" without someone coming up and say "Sakurai is a genius that deserves no criticism whatsoever!".

AGAIN, YOU CAN LOVE AND ADMIRE A CREATOR AND THEIR WORK. You can be inspired by them, you can learn from them, you can gain something meaningful from them. But mudslinging nor endless praise help them work as artists. Once again I reiterate that the Switch wouldn't be the hit it is today if the Wii U wasn't a failure.

 

[S_B]

Also, the game on the whole is great. It's just the direct that I think most feel was disappointing.

 

[Oddball]

Yes I know what the hardcore Sakurai defense force is gonna say "But he is a joke character, every Smash game has a WTF character" but why do we need that? We don't. It's wasted development time plain and simple and Sakurai knows adding a character like that would piss off a good chunk of the fanbase but he did it anyway simply for a laugh. I could think of a DOZEN more worthy/interesting first party additions to add that would please a bigger chunk of fans than that character but nope,

Why do we need that? The same reason we need any character.

You could list your dozens of characters that you like better, but I can just as easily come along and say they're the worst idea anyone could come up with (and if you list Shadow or try to tell me Geno is an important character, I will say that.)

If you insert whoever you want, the people that wanted Geno or Isaac or Kratos or Mach Rider or Captain N the game master could just as easily complain that he's taking the space that could be used for the character THEY want and how nobody really wants the character you picked.

Frankly, a lot of people WERE pleased that Pirahna Plant was included. A lot of people like random crazy ideas. It's one of the things Smash is known for.

The way you're insulting people that disagree your your opinions, I'm glad your pissed off. Frankly, you sound like you deserve it. Relax a little bit. Calm down. Enjoy what you have instead of crying about what you don't or insulting others people they enjoy something you don't enjoy.

 

[pap64]

Also, the game on the whole is great. It's just the direct that I think most feel was disappointing.

Right; the two previous Directs were 28 minutes long, and gave us SO MUCH in terms of info, characters, stages etc. Yet this direct was 40 MINUTES LONG and ended on two characters that were so leaked we saw them coming even with the banner leak screaming "NOTICE ME SENPAI!!!", a single player mode that might be fun to play through once but never touch again, and basic as heckie info (sound settings? screen settings?, really?).

 

[FirestormNeos]

My condolences to everyone who wanted characters from the Grinch Leak.

It seemed like that at first, but then you mentioned how Ultimate won't be able to move people out of Melee, as if the majority of Smash fans still think Melee is the best game in the series. You forget that Melee was an incredibly buggy and rushed game filled with clones and a mediocre Adventure mode. I have nostalgia for it, but it really is overrated.

replace "mediocre adventure mode" with "unforgivably horrible event matches that stages are locked behind" and this post is perfect.

The way you're insulting people that disagree your your opinions, I'm glad your pissed off. Frankly, you sound like you deserve it. Relax a little bit. Calm down. Enjoy what you have instead of crying about what you don't or insulting others people they enjoy something you don't enjoy.

I was with you up until this paragraph. I'll defend deliberate joke characters (except maybe Pichu, but that's a whole other story), as they encourage people to be nicer to eachother's wish lists, but sentences like "I'm glad your pissed off. Frankly, you sound like you deserve it." is exactly the kind of spiteful bull**** attitude that needs to stay out of video games, and "Enjoy what you have instead of crying about what you don't"? seriously? might as well drop the facade and just say "you're being ungrateful" if that's how we're going to conduct ourselves around here.

Right; the two previous Directs were 28 minutes long, and gave us SO MUCH in terms of info, characters, stages etc. Yet this direct was 40 MINUTES LONG and ended on two characters that were so leaked we saw them coming even with the banner leak screaming "NOTICE ME SENPAI!!!", a single player mode that might be fun to play through once but never touch again, and basic as heckie info (sound settings? screen settings?, really?).

sorry for being pedantic, but didn't the direct start with the two characters that were leaked?

 

[pap64]

sorry for being pedantic, but didn't the direct start with the two characters that were leaked?

Ah that's right...how could I forget about the mass genocide of the Nintendo universe?

 

[SuperSceptile15]

I think Piranha Plant actually looks fun to play, but make no mistake: PP is either secretly a character Sakurai wanted in the game for years and added it because this is Sakurai's last SSB game, or it's a gigantic, deliberate middle finger to everyone who ever supported an "irrelevant" character like Isaac or Geno.

Compared to PP, NO character that actually has a NAME is irrelevant.

I feel insanely lucky that my fat reptiles were added to the game. Up until the last direct, I thought Sakurai was actually listening to the fans when it came to characters he was adding but we quickly found out that THAT sure wasn't true.

My undying sympathy to Geno, Isaac, and Banjo fans. You folks got an awfully raw deal...

Banjo isn't out of the running for DLC though. I'd say Shadow, Spring Man, and Rex fans got shafted as well.

 

[Oddball]

I was with you up until this paragraph. I'll defend deliberate joke characters (except maybe Pichu, but that's a whole other story), as they encourage people to be nicer to eachother's wish lists, but sentences like "I'm glad your pissed off. Frankly, you sound like you deserve it." is exactly the kind of spiteful bull**** attitude that needs to stay out of video games, and "Enjoy what you have instead of crying about what you don't"? seriously? might as well drop the facade and just say "you're being ungrateful" if that's how we're going to conduct ourselves around here.

I appologize for not being nicer to somebody who's insulting other people while insisting that they are the one being wronged.

 

[Captain Shades]

FatNerd , nice to see some support for Steve. He may not be my number one pick but I love the idea of the character as he can bring a ton of interesting concepts into Smash.


I’ll be real with you guys. This Smash was really disappointing, and so was Wii U. Smash seems more like a series that de-evolves as time goes on, consistently ripping out modes and options of previous games and shaping more and more into the core of Smash. Brawl felt like the natural evolution, maybe not having the best gameplay due to time, but the content was off the roof. Story Mode, Classic, All-Star, Trophies, Stickers, Completely Custom matches, a coin launcher, a stage builder, Boss Battles, Target Tests, Multi-Man Brawls, ect.

Then Wii U and now Ultimate seem to be cutting corners on the more fun parts of Smash for those not wanting to dedicate their life to the grind. Variety in Smash is dead, and everything feels so basic, with Spirits looking like a slightly upgraded events mode. We waited 4 years and this is what Smash is...

A game that clearly uses Smash Wii U’s engine, with the same character models that look rough as they now look way to bright in most areas. Less New Comers, with the excuse being that Returning Fighters are filling in, which sucks as outside of Wolf and Snake were any of these characters really requested to come back. Young Link feels super unnecessary as he’s a clone of two characters, Pichu is an intentionally worse version of Pikachu, the two Pokémon Trainer Pokémon always felt like extras to Charizard (though I do like Squirtle). We also have modes stripped away, like where is Smash Run, Stage Builder, just any extra. Instead of trophies now have PNG files. Can you blame me for feeling a little cheated. I’ve felt varying degrees of disappointment with Smash constantly saying it’d be the best when I didn’t like what I saw because there was mystery for a grand new mode, but now I know I was wrong.

I know this may be controversial, but I must say, I think one thing kinda killed this game’s hype, and that’s the fact that it seemed too fan heavy. We got all these returning characters that are just clones instead of new comers because no one wanted cuts, when cuts could have gave us a better roster, or less returning characters if we are just using the Wii U engine. Just add Ice Climbers, Snake, and Wolf for returning then and we would have been fine, giving them about 4 characters less to make for maybe another new character or two. So many of the new comer choices feel odd as well, like Simon who didn’t seem to really be that popular on the ballot, only being cited for Brawl popularity. We also have New Comers like Isabelle, that while popular and one of my favorites, seemed like wastes or a character who should have been an echo to save room for new comers. Couple that with the plethora of returning stages that most of us won’t use, ahem... Spear Pillar... I honestly think if the fan service was toned down the game could be better.

I miss the random WTF characters which is why Piranha Plant is my favorite. I love most of the characters we have now, but they feel basic and hollow, like their characters that should be in Smash, nothing outlandish like Game & Watch, R.O.B., or Wii Fit. I guess I miss that feeling of the unknown, and it makes speculation terrible as now everything is based on popularity, like characters such as Steve are trashed on by the community because he’s not popular.

I guess to conclude, I’m disappointed by the lack of stuff in this Smash. This Smash feels like it is simply retreading on old content instead of trying new things. It literally took out content from previous titles that are staples, which would be fine if they were really going for something new, but they aren’t. The Spirits collectibles and mode look extremely lazy, just being a somewhat upgraded events mode where you unlock PNG images. Finally I just hate the lacking stage and new comer selection. They both fill title with good picks, but nothing that surprises, just the generic characters and locations people expect.

Maybe DLC can fix this though? I love a Piranha Plant, and with my only requested character, Bandana Dee standing a decent chance maybe I’ll find some more enjoyment outside of playing another Smash title.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

I appologize for not being nicer to somebody who's insulting other people while insisting that they are the one being wronged.

Please show me where I was insulting other people's opinions. I said the character looked like he had a fun moveset and specifically said if you like him you're free to. I even said I enjoyed most of the roster and think this is going to be the best Smash game. All I said is people will defend Sakurai for every decision he makes. Kinda like what you are doing and proving my point that you can't express disappointment without being harassed. Seems like you're the one who is "pissed off" because you couldn't handle a bit of criticism.

 

[Oddball]

Please show me where I was insulting other people's opinions.

Right here.

Yes I know what the hardcore Sakurai defense force is gonna say "But he is a joke character, every Smash game has a WTF character" but why do we need that? We don't. It's wasted development time plain and simple and Sakurai knows adding a character like that would piss off a good chunk of the fanbase but he did it anyway simply for a laugh. I could think of a DOZEN more worthy/interesting first party additions to add that would please a bigger chunk of fans than that character but nope, "We gotta get those LULZ in GUYZ! Sakurai is GOD!"

 

[volbound1700]

THANK. YOU.

Seriously, people need to tell the difference between harassment and salty anger from genuine criticism.

Yes, Sakurai and his team work too damn hard, yes Ultimate has an incredible roster, yes there will be a lot of options, yes we are grateful the game exists. STILL that doesn't mean that we can't express annoyances, issues and concerns cause no game is perfect, no game is without its flaws and no game comes without any issues, whether it be because it was rushed to market or because it had issues so bad they had to fix it with day one patches.

That kind of mentality stuns the growth of critical thinking because you can still love something to death and still have issues with it. Ultimate is no exception. People should chill.

His team works too DAMN hard? LOL put them into the Automotive Industry and see how they fare. They don't know hard work.

On a separate note, I have been very negative. I should remember all the good of this game from E3 and the August Direct. It could have been so much more with better leadership but it is what it is.

 

[FirestormNeos]

FatNerd , nice to see some support for Steve. He may not be my number one pick but I love the idea of the character as he can bring a ton of interesting concepts into Smash.


I’ll be real with you guys. This Smash was really disappointing, and so was Wii U. Smash seems more like a series that de-evolves as time goes on, consistently ripping out modes and options of previous games and shaping more and more into the core of Smash. Brawl felt like the natural evolution, maybe not having the best gameplay due to time, but the content was off the roof. Story Mode, Classic, All-Star, Trophies, Stickers, Completely Custom matches, a coin launcher, a stage builder, Boss Battles, Target Tests, Multi-Man Brawls, ect.

Then Wii U and now Ultimate seem to be cutting corners on the more fun parts of Smash for those not wanting to dedicate their life to the grind. Variety in Smash is dead, and everything feels so basic, with Spirits looking like a slightly upgraded events mode. We waited 4 years and this is what Smash is...

A game that clearly uses Smash Wii U’s engine, with the same character models that look rough as they now look way to bright in most areas. Less New Comers, with the excuse being that Returning Fighters are filling in, which sucks as outside of Wolf and Snake were any of these characters really requested to come back. Young Link feels super unnecessary as he’s a clone of two characters, Pichu is an intentionally worse version of Pikachu, the two Pokémon Trainer Pokémon always felt like extras to Charizard (though I do like Squirtle). We also have modes stripped away, like where is Smash Run, Stage Builder, just any extra. Instead of trophies now have PNG files. Can you blame me for feeling a little cheated. I’ve felt varying degrees of disappointment with Smash constantly saying it’d be the best when I didn’t like what I saw because there was mystery for a grand new mode, but now I know I was wrong.

I know this may be controversial, but I must say, I think one thing kinda killed this game’s hype, and that’s the fact that it seemed too fan heavy. We got all these returning characters that are just clones instead of newcomers because no one wanted cuts, when cuts could have gave us a better roster, or less returning characters if we are just using the Wii U engine. Just add Ice Climbers, Snake, and Wolf for returning then and we would have been fine, giving them about 4 characters less to make for maybe another new character or two. So many of the new comer choices feel odd as well, like Simon who didn’t seem to really be that popular on the ballot, only being cited for Brawl popularity. We also have Newcomers like Isabelle, that while popular and one of my favorites, seemed like wastes or a character who should have been an echo to save room for newcomers. Couple that with the plethora of returning stages that most of us won’t use, ahem... Spear Pillar... I honestly think if the fan service was toned down the game could be better.

I miss the random WTF characters which is why Piranha Plant is my favorite. I love most of the characters we have now, but they feel basic and hollow, like their characters that should be in Smash, nothing outlandish like Game & Watch, R.O.B., or Wii Fit. I guess I miss that feeling of the unknown, and it makes speculation terrible as now everything is based on popularity, like characters such as Steve are trashed on by the community because he’s not popular.

I guess to conclude, I’m disappointed by the lack of stuff in this Smash. This Smash feels like it is simply retreading on old content instead of trying new things. It literally took out content from previous titles that are staples, which would be fine if they were really going for something new, but they aren’t. The Spirits collectibles and mode look extremely lazy, just being a somewhat upgraded events mode where you unlock PNG images. Finally I just hate the lacking stage and new comer selection. They both fill title with good picks, but nothing that surprises, just the generic characters and locations people expect.

Maybe DLC can fix this though? I love a Piranha Plant, and with my only requested character, Bandana Dee standing a decent chance maybe I’ll find some more enjoyment outside of playing another Smash title.

I'm half in agreement with this comment. On one hand, I'm feeling quite bummed out that the odds are stacked against Stage Builder returning, I hated Smash 4's grind-focused unlock system, bringing back Melee's band of unwanted semiclones was a calculated risk that isn't going to pay off (but if it means getting snake back and keeping my mains, fine), Smash 4 being disappointing (though that was my fault), and missing the feeling of the unknown (though I would rather blame leakers for this). On the other hand, I'm cautiously optimistic for WoL, I never liked trophies to begin with, and I wouldn't go as far as consider myself dissapointed with Smash Ultimate (except for the potential loss of Stage Builder, but perhaps they could add that as a DLC expansion outside of the fighter pass?).

His team works too DAMN hard? LOL put them into the Automotive Industry and see how they fare. They don't know hard work.

CEASE. AND. DESIST.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Right here.

I wasn't talking about fans of the pirahna plant character but hardcore Sakurai fanboys who go out of their way to defend every decision Sakurai has made. I GUARANTEE you if someone came to you a year ago and said "Piranha Plant will be the next playable character in a Smash game" you would laugh and be like that's a weird idea (and if you say you wouldn't you're lying). But when Sakurai does it, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and if you don't like the character you're entitled and ungrateful. That being said and I'll say it again if you like that character good on you. He looks to have a fun moveset but that will never get me to actually like him personally. No I'm not ungrateful for saying that because I'm more than happy with . So one character doesn't bother me that much it's just the fact that characters that could've pleased a lot of people like Waluigi, Captain Toad, Krystal, Spring-Man, Shovel Knight, Isaac, Ashley, Bomberman, etc. were all deconfirmed and that time went into Pirahna Plant a character that SOLELY exists as a joke. Yes it's true it's impossible to please everybody and you could say any character takes a slot from another to push an agenda. I'm not knocking fans of the plant but that is simply the truth. There is no way Sakurai went into development thinking "Everyone wants a playable Piranha Plant! It just makes too much sense" it was more of "Let's make a wacky character for the sake of being wacky and weird."

 

[Oddball]

I don't know if you're trying and just not good at it or what, but you're really not being any less insulting. Basically you're just coming out and saying "if you like this character you're just kissing his butt."

You're not saying you don't like the character. That would be fine. There's a lot of characters I don't like in the game. That's not being ungrateful. That's just legitimate criticism.

Where it crosses over into actual ungratefulness is when you insist he made the character just to make people mad and that people aren't allowed to actually like the idea only like it to suck up to the guy. That fact that you follow that statement with what amounted to "but these other character that I like would be so much better" really didn't help sell the point that you weren't being ungrateful.

And again, maybe this isn't your intention. Maybe you're just bad at expressing yourself. In which case, I do honestly apologize for being rude.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I don't know if you're trying and just not good at it or what, but you're really not being any less insulting. Basically you're just coming out and saying "if you like this character you're just kissing his butt."

You're not saying you don't like the character. That would be fine. There's a lot of characters I don't like in the game. That's not being ungrateful. That's just legitimate criticism.

Where it crosses over into actual ungratefulness is when you insist he made the character just to make people mad and that people aren't allowed to actually like the idea only like it to suck up to the guy. That fact that you follow that statement with what amounted to "but these other character that I like would be so much better" really didn't help sell the point that you weren't being ungrateful.

And again, maybe this isn't your intention. Maybe you're just bad at expressing yourself. In which case, I do honestly apologize for being rude.

No, they're not bad at expressing themselves. You're just plain ol' misinterpreting their words.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

I'm done debating we're both going to have different views, have a good night and I accept your apology.

 

[soviet prince]

They never said they wouldn't do a second season.

the way it was worded it seems 1 is it

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I have a lot of mixed feelings following the Direct (And the DLC speculation scene erupting with Vergeben's comments isn't helping a ton either, more on that later). I've spoke to it before, but the Direct itself was poorly paced and had some real issues. There are things like Brightness, Help, Tips, etc. that just do not need to be covered. The Vault and Games & More I'm not sure we saw completely covered or not, and Spirits needed a better explanation or something... I'm especially frustrated by the fact that it seems like we've lost a lot of content from the past Smash game as well. Online in particular worries me and seems to be a full regression.

I don't like the narrative that Smash Ultimate is supposedly the perfect Smash game. It was in my eyes until this Direct, but that's again because features seem cut or changed in some odd ways and Spirits isn't quite convincing enough for me as a main primary new mode. I know minor things like Target Smash and Home-Run Contest aren't always the most popular modes, but they've been in every Smash since Melee, and including them feels as necessary as anything else. I enjoy them as additional modes to occupy time with and work through challenges. Target Smash didn't need to be unique, just bring something like the one Brawl had back, and we'd be golden. Similarly, the change to Multi-Man are a little strange. Only having three choices and relegating All-Star to it feels weird. Home-Run especially is such a simple thing I'll truly miss.



The issues with the roster are less that I'm disappointed with it, and I'm more disappointed for the precedents that are being set with it. Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes continue to get more and more out of hand in ways that are scary and disappointing as fans of specific characters. I understand that not every request will be accommodated, not even all the top requests can be accommodated, but ruling some of those characters out so harshly and revealing them at the end doesn't feel like the way to be doing things (Unless there really is some crazy Banjo Kazooie and Geno DLC out there...). Assist trophies appropriately seem like a death sentence to people in the age of DLC.

Mii Costumes represent everything I hate about the Miis, and several of them don't look great either... Chibi-Robo hurt me a lot in this Direct with that Mii costume for example. I never expected him, but the costume makes him look decapitated and also forces me to create a Mii that has none of his personality or character, and give him some generic moves to try to represent him the best I can. A noble concept, that in practice just makes him feel super generic and a cheap imitation of a real fighter. I don't like the notion of anybody in Smash through the Mii fighters, and will generally always stand opposed to them. They feel like such a huge development chunk that shouldn't be the focus of Smash at all when hand crafted content seems so much more important to the series. Stage Builder at least allowed for something new, I don't think the Miis do. The costumes feel like cosmetic junk, and honestly, that's kind of what they are when it comes down to it.

There also seems to be this idea that requested fighters can only be from a series that still has a future, and the more irrelevant ones have no chance. King K. Rool is our one champion as fans, and while amazing, I'm afraid the future will not be kind to our beloved and increasingly forgotten characters. Plus, there is a sense in the air that relevancy people have been given some major ammo to make our lives hell as fans. That scares and disappoints me as people will act even more viciously towards these bigger fan requests that people pour so much love into. I wish we'd been able to point to an Isaac or a Geno, and say see? We at least have a chance. And that's all we wanted. We already know the opposition, we just hoped we'd get at least one chance...

Do I need to get into why Piranha Plant is problematic on multiple levels for opening up the field to generic enemies and non characters? Or how his inclusion, no matter how much Sakurai may have wanted him, is perhaps the most horribly timed pick in the face of fans who have given love and support to characters? The interesting addition he may be, he causes problems and sets a new precedent that we'll have to deal with and I think is deserving of the frustration he gets.




Sakurai has worked incredibly hard for us as fans. I won't deny him that, and yes, he's made wonders happen in some ways. But he isn't infallible and people need to allow us to vent those frustrations. He is making a product at the end of the day, and Smash doesn't have to be his baby anymore if he doesn't want it. Yeah, we didn't have to get everything in this game that we did... How is that an argument for gratefulness? Because it isn't. The idea to be thankful for what you have because things could be worse is just terrible logic and doesn't allow for the room to improve things. It's just a ****ty counter-argument to shut down people who have complaints (Again, regardless of how legitimate a complaint may or may not be).


Am I happy with Smash Ultimate? Absolutely. I'm one of those fools who believes that we should keep Veterans from game to game as they've earned a place among the fandom. Pichu and Young Link may not be terribly exciting for me, but if you're making the ideal game, they need to be there as much as someone like Ice Climbers. Ridley, King K. Rool, and Simon Belmont were all in my top five most wanted characters prior to the release of the game. Ridley and King K. Rool were one and two respectively. I'm a huge Castlevania fan, so seeing the series receive the best representation in Smash so far of any third party and also of the series for the first time in basically a decade was a truly beautiful moment. I like every single newcomer that I've seen, even if Incineroar, Daisy, and Chrom feel unnecessary, I'm glad they're here for different reasons. 103 stages with all of my favorites in the entire series remastered and redone (With a measly handful missing, only Pac-Maze really being problematic in absence) is fantastic. Hannenbow and Mario Bros are weird as hell picks I'm pretty sure only I wanted back, so I'm glad. He's done a ton of quality of life changes that I'm ecstatic about. The new items look great. Smash Down and Squad Strike are interesting new additions. Another Smash CGI cut scene is always welcome too. Mechanically, Ultimate seems to be the most sound and satisfying game since Melee.

All of that is to say, holy ****, I am satisfied with this game. That doesn't mean I wasn't disappointed with yesterday's Direct for multiple reasons. Some personal, some just very real and valid in criticism. I imagine there are quite a few people who have it significantly worse than me with disappointment. That disappointment is valid even in the face of this game, and people have a lot more investment in characters than I do. Character picks are a big deal in Smash for what they represent to individual people, and you can't change that no matter how much you twist the narrative. If I adore Golden Sun and Isaac with all my heart, seeing what I did yesterday is a valid and possibly even heartbreaking reality, and that can seriously impact someone's enjoyment of anything.

DLC remains to be seen. But if we get **** like a Granblue character in, people are going to be even more disappointed and questioning of Sakurai, and those concerns will be even more valid. That may just be a reality of different priorities, but that hurts a lot of fans sometimes...

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

You know, I have to stay I'm still mildly infuriated about Piranha Plant being picked to be in the game. However, stepping back I see it as a perfect example of a badly timed joke

Like, I'm reminded of the Bad Box Art Megaman incident. During the early 2010's it seemed like Capcom was doing everything in its power to murder Megaman. Megaman Legends 3 got cancelled, Maverick Hunter got cancelled, Megaman Universe got cancelled....

Then suddenly in Street Fighter X Tekken in comes a joke character, Bad Box Art Megaman!

Spoiler

A harmless joke character based off the infamously awful box art of the first game... that came at exactly the WRONG time. In a time when Megaman's fanbase was in distress, turning their hero into a fat, ugly, bumbling idiot felt like the biggest middle finger possible. It's no wonder everyone flocked to Mighty No. 9 when it came along. Camp Camp said it best: "People don't always give out of the kindness of their hearts, but they'll gladly give to screw over someone they hate!"

Which brings me to Piranha Plant, another harmless joke character brought out at exactly the worst possible time. We had to sit and watch a conga-line of deconfirmations of big fan-favorite picks: Issac, Shadow, Spring Man, Chibi-Robo, Ray.... The Grinch Leak being false just made everything infinitely worse. Then, as seemingly the final bit of salt to rub in our wound.... a generic, faceless mook gets announced.

A worthless enemy character you barely think twice about as you head to Bowser's castle is somehow more worthy of a coveted fighter's slot than the likes of Issac, Geno, Banjo, Waluigi.

Was it intended to be received that way? No. But you can bet that's how it felt

I honestly don't blame people for despising this stupid plant for seemingly taking away our hopes and dreams. It inadvertently sends the message that "Your input doesn't matter, I do what I want"

If Plant had been announced sooner, I'll bet ANYTHING it would have been received WAY better. Sending it out to be the closing act after an all out massacre was basically signing its death warrant

 

[StormC]

I know this may be controversial, but I must say, I think one thing kinda killed this game’s hype, and that’s the fact that it seemed too fan heavy. We got all these returning characters that are just clones instead of new comers because no one wanted cuts, when cuts could have gave us a better roster, or less returning characters if we are just using the Wii U engine. Just add Ice Climbers, Snake, and Wolf for returning then and we would have been fine, giving them about 4 characters less to make for maybe another new character or two. So many of the new comer choices feel odd as well, like Simon who didn’t seem to really be that popular on the ballot, only being cited for Brawl popularity. We also have New Comers like Isabelle, that while popular and one of my favorites, seemed like wastes or a character who should have been an echo to save room for new comers. Couple that with the plethora of returning stages that most of us won’t use, ahem... Spear Pillar... I honestly think if the fan service was toned down the game could be better.

Ironic considering a lot of complaints seem to be that Sakurai didn't listen to the fans enough.

Simon might seem odd at first but Castlevania is a classic series and one of the most notable in terms of Nintendo history. You say Simon wasn't especially popular on the ballot, so isn't it fine that Sakurai got to do something a bit out of the typical "K. Rool/Ridley/Isaac/Banjo/Geno" category with him? I think he was a character a lot of people didn't realize they wanted until they saw him. Sakurai also considers the series influential on him as a game designer. As far as third party series go, you could do a lot worse.

I do sorta agree that you only really needed Ice Climbers, Snake, and Wolf, but Everyone Is Here was a pretty powerful marketing tool at E3. Like, we're not getting Pichu instead of Bandana Dee or something. And considering that Isabelle is also a semi-clone, I doubt you could "replace" her with a fully unique character as well. So it is what it is. Considering the limited newcomer count, I think they did alright balancing the old and new.

Also, not necessarily directed to you, but:

Anyone can try to pry K. Rool and Ridley from my cold dead hands. They carry half of the game's hype on their shoulders. It's not Ultimate without them. But for the most part, I'm used to Smash having a disappointing closing after some amazing early hype. I'm pretty zen about it. I got the characters I wanted the most for the last decade. I choose to not get mad about it anymore. I'm unsure what's going to happen with DLC, but hopefully it will be worthwhile.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Ironic considering a lot of complaints seem to be that Sakurai didn't listen to the fans enough.

Simon might seem odd at first but Castlevania is a classic series and one of the most notable in terms of Nintendo history. You say Simon wasn't especially popular on the ballot, so isn't it fine that Sakurai got to do something a bit out of the typical "K. Rool/Ridley/Isaac/Banjo/Geno" category with him? I think he was a character a lot of people didn't realize they wanted until they saw him. Sakurai also considers the series influential on him as a game designer. As far as third party series go, you could do a lot worse.

I do sorta agree that you only really needed Ice Climbers, Snake, and Wolf, but Everyone Is Here was a pretty powerful marketing tool at E3. Like, we're not getting Pichu instead of Bandana Dee or something. And considering that Isabelle is also a semi-clone, I doubt you could "replace" her with a fully unique character as well. So it is what it is. Considering the limited newcomer count, I think they did alright balancing the old and new.

Also, not necessarily directed to you, but:

Anyone can try to pry K. Rool and Ridley from my cold dead hands. They carry half of the game's hype on their shoulders. It's not Ultimate without them. But for the most part, I'm used to Smash having a disappointing closing after some amazing early hype. I'm pretty zen about it. I got the character I wanted the most for the last decade. I choose to not get mad about it anymore. I'm unsure what's going to happen with DLC, but hopefully it will be worthwhile.

I agree with most of what you've written here. When you decide to bring back the Smash 4 roster, and then add in Snake, Ice Climbers, and Wolf, you're just four short of being able to say you've brought back every character. I really can't think of a good reason to not go ahead and include the likes of Pichu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Young Link. "Everyone is Here" was a big win for Sakurai and Nintendo, so I think they definitely made a good decision with Ultimate in that regard. It's a great way to drum up hype that doesn't hurt anyone. And while I admit they probably did take significant resources, again, we don't know just exactly how much goes into a returning veteran like Pichu vs. attempting to incorporate a full newcomer.

I'm sorry if people feel disappointed in the fact that Sakurai is bringing back all the old characters and not focusing on new ones, but that's one of those decisions that shows a different priority again. And fan polls at the very least did seem to indicate that people wanted characters back. Many of the unique play styles of less popular characters do actively add to the game as well, so it's not necessarily like a brand new character would be adding more than realizing a fan request inherently. Most could be made unique, but actively removing unique styles already present in the games definitely would take away from Ultimate as a whole.

And, honestly, same with the end of the line for rosters. Sakurai never ends hype cycles with the most hype newcomers, and Smash 4 taught me to realize that and believe in the harsh realities of end game, so I'm glad I could brace for it. I really hope the DLC characters are decent in the end though... Vergeben has me terrified on a Granblue character and I want that specific idea dead as soon as possible (And at least it didn't come from him DIRECTLY)

 

[XDaDePsak]

The latest direct was awesome. If you don't think so, I don't think you're ungrateful... I just think it's unfortunate you're unable to fully enjoy what we got. Why insult you over that? That's just kicking you while you're down.

 

[Fane]

Being disappointed =/= ungrateful.

Unnecessarily flaming the game, the dev team, Sakurai, and Nintendo because you didn't get what you wanted is being ungrateful.

Big differences there.

 

[NewGuy79]

His team works too DAMN hard? LOL put them into the Automotive Industry and see how they fare. They don't know hard work.

On a separate note, I have been very negative. I should remember all the good of this game from E3 and the August Direct. It could have been so much more with better leadership but it is what it is.

I'm gonna regret rejoining this thread but I just can't let this one go...

So I get that everyone in this thread is disappointed and that understandable, you're definitely allowed to feel this way, direct wasn't so hot, announcements were mediocre, info was confusing and expectations were not met, overall a lot of valid critisism could be derived from this direct.

but where I draw the line is the notion that a mixed direct somehow diminishes and negates all of the work that has gone into making this game.
to address the above; in what way does a parallel between the working environment of the automotive industry and that of the gaming industry lead anyone to believe that Sakurai didn't work hard? do the two industries have a similar workflow, similar management structure, similar anything? or is it just that because they are games they certainly must be easier to make then automobiles?

Well, while I can't comment on the auto industry as someone who has been trying to succeed in the gaming industry I struggle to find any crossover of skill between the two industries that would indicate Sakurai's lack of drive for smash brothers.

it honestly all comes down to this; while you are not ungrateful for feeling disappointed with aspects of Ultimate, you sure do sound ungrateful when attempting to diminish Sakurai's work ethic on this project that is so obviously packed with content.
there are many ways to criticize ultimate right now: stage/character picks, lack of engaging single player, similarities to the past games are just a few of the many valid complaints. stating that Sakurai doesn't work hard or hard enough simply because you didn't get what you wanted seems simply missguided to me.

I'm gonna apologize in advance if all these rambling sounds rude or antagonistic, I simply have gotten too much grief from people diminishing the game development process for me to see it in the smash community and do nothing.

so, sorry.

 

[osby]

I think Piranha Plant actually looks fun to play, but make no mistake: PP is either secretly a character Sakurai wanted in the game for years and added it because this is Sakurai's last SSB game, or it's a gigantic, deliberate middle finger to everyone who ever supported an "irrelevant" character like Isaac or Geno.

Compared to PP, NO character that actually has a NAME is irrelevant.

I feel insanely lucky that my fat reptiles were added to the game. Up until the last direct, I thought Sakurai was actually listening to the fans when it came to characters he was adding but we quickly found out that THAT sure wasn't true.

My undying sympathy to Geno, Isaac, and Banjo fans. You folks got an awfully raw deal...

It's just a joke character created to be added as a free bonus DLC, I think you're reading too much into this.

Sakurai DID listened to the fans when adding characters. It's just not every single character in the game wasn't fan-picks.

Also don't forget Waluigi, Lyn, Ashley, Midna, Skull Kid, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong, Shadow etc. fans because a lot of them seems to be personally offended because Sakurai didn't added every single one of them.

 

[NintenEdgyMan]

Sadly, this might be true. A lot of people in the fanbase don't know how to handle themselves emotionally when a character they personally didn't ask for is revealed. They frequent echo chambers where they become absolutely certain that the characters they want are assured a spot in the Smash roster while also using a leak as leverage, so they tend to react poorly to any other fighter, thinking that the devs owe them, that they are obligated to comply with their choices. And more importantly, they think the character they like is on the top of everyone else's list, ignoring that a person is an individual and not a part of a hivemind. People will be mad at the choices made but more because of their own ignorance and selfishness.



There literally was a trailer made specifically to showcase gameplay elements for Incineroar, so the fact that you're saying that there are none is baffling and can actually be considered to be grasping at straws.
People oughta be honest with themselves and just say "I don't like the character" rather than applying mental gymnastics to tell others that a fighter has "no gameplay elements". We have seen this song and dance for years, and it still makes people lose credibility when they use it as an argument.

I think you confused what I said. I said he has very few elements that set him apart. Just because you are down on your knees for Tony the Tiger doesn't mean they are unique.