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Yoshi's potential

alex mora

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Been using Yoshi as a main in tourney and online and i've been pleasantly surprised. He is fast, strong and great aerial mobility (i've done 4 moves in the air and made it back safely) My question to you guys is what do you think about Yoshi's potential on the tier list and in competitive play. I personally think he will be A-tier and maybe S-tier. He out classes Bowser and Robin. The only character i consistently have problems with is Rosalina but im trying to figure out the best way to separate and punish. Hopefully Down smash in between her and luma will create enough space to start a lengthy punish.
 

Saturnity

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All I know so far is that he's good against bad players. I feel like my fundamentals are garbage, but I'm on a 59 win streak in for glory.

New players can't deal with his kit.
 

Terotrous

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Note: This post was like day 3 impressions and is highly outdated now.

I feel like he's mid tier. He definitely wrecks noobs, if you don't realize that Dthrow / Uthrow -> Uair is escapable, you're going to get wrecked, but pretty much everyone can just hold Up and mash jump to escape at any percent, rendering his throws nearly useless as being above Yoshi isn't a threat and his Forward and Backward throws have little knockback and can't even get the opponent off-stage.

Beyond throws, Yoshi is fairly average. He has good survivability, but his KO power is not great and his hitboxes seem to be some of the worst in the game. A great way to fight Yoshi is just to stick out a hitbox whenever he tries to hit you, you'll almost always get a trade out of it because his hitboxes seem very disadvantageous, and this results in him taking all kinds of unnecessary damage when trying to build up percent or get kills. Almost all of his kill options require a very good read or for the opponent to have very high damage, as his only reliable poke that leads to a kill move is Bair (which is itself a kill move at high percents). Beyond this you basically have to gamble with UpSmash and Pivot FSmash for kills, which is dangerous as they can be punished hard, and since his grabs are not a threat the opponent has little incentive not to block or challenge with their own smash attack when you dash in. He has good gimp potential with Bair, but unfortunately he's terrible at getting you off-stage because almost all of his hitboxes send you vertically. Bair also isn't as good of a poke as it used to be as its hitboxes seem worse, even though it does have kill potential now.

As far as specials are concerned, Eggs are really nice, they're very controllable and can be used as follow-ups in a lot of situations, in particular vertical egg is the best follow-up to a throw in most situations. Ground Pound is a decent vertical punish in some situations, but is dangerous if overused. Egg Roll has always been a gimmick, but it works occasionally. Egg Lay is unremarkable now that DJCs are gone.

Yoshi can jump out of shield now, which is a huge buff. No more do you have to fear camp / shield pressure. This is easily the most positive adjustment he got. Too bad he lost DJCs in exchange.

Overall, I think Yoshi is pretty much the same as he used to be. He gained some stuff and lost some stuff, he still has some strengths and some significant issues that will hold him back from ever being truly amazing. I think he's very overrated right now as some people are calling him top 5, but that's likely just because they haven't figured out how to escape those throw combos yet. Once you do he's very manageable.
 
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chipndip

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I think the guy above me sells Yoshi too short. Yoshi's tools aren't great on paper, but his mobility is strong and he's still got respectable weight. He's definitely been a great pick for me, and I know a friend who's better with him than I am.

I don't think he's mid-tier, but if he is, this must be a REALLY balanced game.
 

Sinister Slush

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I don't have the 3ds version nor will I ever to have much of an opinion. But all I do know is he's pretty much regurgitating almost the exact same stuff he said in another thread hours ago.
I feel like he's mid tier. He definitely wrecks noobs, if you don't realize that Dthrow / Uthrow -> Uair is escapable, you're going to get wrecked, but pretty much everyone can just hold Up and mash jump to escape at any percent, rendering his throws nearly useless as being above Yoshi isn't a threat and his Forward and Backward throws have little knockback and can't even get the opponent off-stage.
By that logic, even if they just "jump out of our combos" we can now either chase after them with short hops and bait airdodges to punish or wait for a landing to punish since airdodging into the stage is a horrible thing to do now compared to Brawl.
Also Uair is still incredibly dangerous. Dunno why he thinks it isn't though.

Beyond throws, Yoshi is fairly average. He has good survivability, but his KO power is not great and his hitboxes seem to be some of the worst in the game. A great way to fight Yoshi is just to stick out a hitbox whenever he tries to hit you, you'll almost always get a trade out of it because his hitboxes seem very disadvantageous, and this results in him taking all kinds of unnecessary damage when trying to build up percent or get kills. Almost all of his kill options require a very good read or for the opponent to have very high damage, as his only reliable poke that leads to a kill move is Bair (which is itself a kill move at high percents). Beyond this you basically have to gamble with UpSmash and Pivot FSmash for kills, which is dangerous as they can be punished hard, and since his grabs are not a threat the opponent has little incentive not to block or challenge with their own smash attack when you dash in. He has good gimp potential with Bair, but unfortunately he's terrible at getting you off-stage because almost all of his hitboxes send you vertically. Bair also isn't as good of a poke as it used to be as its hitboxes seem worse, even though it does have kill potential now.
His kill moves are fine, his hitboxes are still good albeit Usmash doesn't have invincibility anymore but pretty much Fox Usmash in terms of power, his Fsmash randomly whiffs if their face is literally consumed by Yoshi's nose. And even his Bair of all moves is a kill move now. Yoshi Bomb breaks full shields, and his dair is a bit better this game compared to brawl even though same damage.
>opponent to have very high damage
You mean like everyone else not little mac DK or bowser? Astonishing.
Yoshi's grabs aren't extremely threatening but they can be threatening still lol. Especially since, well, it's still Yoshi's decently long tongue being thrown out. Pivot grab isn't as good as brawl but we can still kinda just throw it out sometimes if we want and get rewarded for throwing it out.

Also that "throw out hitbox to trade" comment is just plain silly.

Egg Lay is unremarkable now that DJCs are gone.
Maybe, but B-reverse is still in and higher % with people being stuck longer is good now.

Yoshi can jump out of shield now, which is a huge buff. No more do you have to fear camp / shield pressure. This is easily the most positive adjustment he got. Too bad he lost DJCs in exchange.
I'll take OoS options over DJCs since not many Yoshi's used Platform wavelands/DR anyways.

Overall, I think Yoshi is pretty much the same as he used to be. I think he's very overrated right now as some people are calling him top 5, but that's likely just because they haven't figured out how to escape those throw combos yet.
Yoshi being the same isn't a bad thing, it's pretty much a good thing. Almost the entire problem with Yoshi in brawl was his shield, MK Lucario and Falco (two of which was only a problem because of no OoS options which we have now in Smash 4 while Falco/MK were nerfed heavily, tho Lucario was buffed a lot so can't say anything for him) Every other MU we had the potential to outplay, or even be gay and outcamp (not counting Olimar, **** him)
And Yoshi definitely isn't considered top tier because of a few silly combos from throws. It's just his mobility, his moves etc. Infact, he's probably getting so much praise because he stayed almost entirely the same from Brawl to Smash 4 outside of OoS options. Imagine the threat he would've been in Brawl if he could jump OoS.

Well all that and the fact nobody knows how to fight against Yoshi still. In both Melee and Brawl it's mostly just top players exposing Yoshi's (the character itself) weaknesses to win while also just having better moves when they're fox/marth in Melee or MK in Brawl.
 
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Terotrous

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By that logic, even if they just "jump out of our combos" we can now either chase after them with short hops and bait airdodges to punish or wait for a landing to punish since airdodging into the stage is a horrible thing to do now compared to Brawl.
Also Uair is still incredibly dangerous. Dunno why he thinks it isn't though.
It's true that you should NEVER airdodge against Yoshi. He has great tools to punish airdodge, particularly Dair, which eats airdodges for breakfast. The problem is that people are figuring this out, and they're just challenging with normals instead, which Yoshi cannot punish nearly as well. Against Marth, for example, Yoshi has no normals that can challenge Dair, he just has to use eggs instead. This is also definitely true of Link, and even Sonic, Greninja, and ZSS's divekicks seem to beat Uair as well.


His kill moves are fine, his hitboxes are still good albeit Usmash doesn't have invincibility anymore but pretty much Fox Usmash in terms of power, his Fsmash randomly whiffs if their face is literally consumed by Yoshi's nose. And even his Bair of all moves is a kill move now. Yoshi Bomb breaks full shields, and his dair is a bit better this game compared to brawl even though same damage.
Yoshi USmash typically kills around 130% if fresh. That's not (Melee) Fox USmash power, which kills at 100%. It also lacks the wonderful back hitbox that Fox USmash had, so it's much more punishable and you can't just gamble with it like Fox did. Bair typically kills around 160%.

FSmash does have good kill power (typically kills around 110-120%), but there's not any reliable way of landing it besides getting a good read since it has a lot of startup.


Yoshi's grabs aren't extremely threatening but they can be threatening still lol. Especially since, well, it's still Yoshi's decently long tongue being thrown out. Pivot grab isn't as good as brawl but we can still kinda just throw it out sometimes if we want and get rewarded for throwing it out.
Yoshi's grab itself is one of the best in the game, it's fast, has great range, and compliments his overall game well. The problem is his throws are trash. If he had good options after a throw, he'd be high or even top tier.


Also that "throw out hitbox to trade" comment is just plain silly.
It's shocking just how well it works against him. It seems like something that shouldn't work, but it totally does.


Yoshi being the same isn't a bad thing, it's pretty much a good thing. Almost the entire problem with Yoshi in brawl was his shield, MK Lucario and Falco (two of which was only a problem because of no OoS options which we have now in Smash 4 while Falco/MK were nerfed heavily, tho Lucario was buffed a lot so can't say anything for him) Every other MU we had the potential to outplay, or even be gay and outcamp (not counting Olimar, **** him)
And Yoshi definitely isn't considered top tier because of a few silly combos from throws. It's just his mobility, his moves etc. Infact, he's probably getting so much praise because he stayed almost entirely the same from Brawl to Smash 4 outside of OoS options. Imagine the threat he would've been in Brawl if he could jump OoS.
This isn't Brawl anymore, most other characters got a lot better. Yoshi initially looked like he was way better, but his USmash and Dash attack aren't really as improved as people think, and thanks to vectoring he doesn't benefit from the increased combo potential of Smash 4 much. Overall, though, I think his main weakness is just his terrible hitboxes. I want to see frame data, but I'm quite confident most of his hitboxes got a lot worse.
 
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Sinister Slush

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This game is almost technically Brawl 2.0 but a bit faster, less floaty, no tripping, and a couple new mechanics thrown in.
Even if his hitboxes are bad you're not looking at the big picture here. You have to also compare him to his competition. Which isn't much when the likes of Palutena Villager Peach Pac-man Mario ganon etc. exist.

Yet again though something silly, cause of vectoring. That's like saying cause of DI in melee/Brawl that makes him bad and he was unable to kill as early as he should've like under 105% but because of the DI it had to be either later or fully charged to kill at those lowish percents in brawl terms. Doesn't matter lol

Right now the only threatening characters I've seen in matches so far (not for yoshi just in general) is Olimar 2.0 (DHD), Greninja possibly, ZSS, Lucario, R.O.B., Robin (if nairo levels of good) and Sheik. That's not saying much in a 49 character roster.
Until hidden potential is cracked for characters that people say should be higher/good like Little Mac Megaman or Shulk I still believe they won't be much threats for many people, or even Yoshi in the meantime.

Also afaik, brawl characters either got worse or removed lolol.
MK nerfed to the ground, Olimar can possibly be a contender for the holy (or unholy?) Triforce at the bottom of F-Tier or however many tiers Smash 4 backroom (whenever it's made, prolly when Wii U version out) makes.
Diddy can only have one banana and it disappears after one hit while the rest of his moves got slight buffs here or there, snack wolf and IC is gone, no chaingrab for D3 so he's out since him (and IC's) are chaingrabbing, the character. Wario has no camp game with tires anymore. List goes on but you know what I'm getting at.

Most Brawl characters got nerfed in someway while Sakurai tried to compensate with buffs here or there but it's just not enough.
 
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Terotrous

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This game is almost technically Brawl 2.0 but a bit faster, less floaty, no tripping, and a couple new mechanics thrown in.
Even if his hitboxes are bad you're not looking at the big picture here. You have to also compare him to his competition. Which isn't much when the likes of Palutena Villager Peach Pac-man Mario ganon etc. exist.
Yes, but there's also Marth, Link, Greninja, Sheik, Robin, ZSS, Bowser, Lucario, etc. Honestly, I think a lot of the cast is viable this time around, which is why I see Yoshi being mid-tier. He's certainly usable, but he doesn't feel particularly strong compared to what most other characters can do. He might be mid-high, but I certainly don't see him being high or top.


Yet again though something silly, cause of vectoring. That's like saying cause of DI in melee/Brawl that makes him bad and he was unable to kill as early as he should've like under 105% but because of the DI it had to be either later or fully charged to kill at those lowish percents in brawl terms. Doesn't matter lol
It would definitely be a massive buff if he could combo off his throws since he has a really good grab. Many characters in the game do get guaranteed combos off of throws (Shiek, ZSS, Mario, etc), unfortunately Yoshi's throw sends them just the tiniest bit too far for him to get a follow-up against most characters if they vector properly.


Also afaik, brawl characters either got worse or removed lolol.
Maybe, but most of the 64 / Melee characters who were bad in previous games got better. Samus is way better. Kirby is way better. Mario is way better. Ness is better. Link is better. Falcon and Sheik are better (than Brawl). Yoshi is a bit better too, but he's got more competition from fellow vets now.
 

Sinister Slush

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All those characters you listed outside of Sheik I think Yoshi still triumphs over in this game. Which he already did in all three previous titles 64 melee and brawl.
If we wanna bring up vets from previous games. Link has a bit more ground now for him to possibly be a threat for once in his smash career, and Donkey Kong looked incredibly spooky.

Either that or Raptor just got his butt handed to him so hard DK looked incredibly good.
 

Terotrous

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All those characters you listed outside of Sheik I think Yoshi still triumphs over in this game. Which he already did in all three previous titles 64 melee and brawl.
Uhhh, what? Most of those characters are indeed pretty bad in Brawl, but Kirby > Yoshi in 64, and almost certainly Falcon and Samus > Yoshi in Melee too.


I think Yoshi probably has the tools to go toe to toe with anyone in this game whose hitboxes aren't inordinately good (ie, the Marios of the world), but characters with good disjoints (Marth, Lucina, Link, Robin, Greninja, etc) seem scary as apart from eggs they can beat most of his moves pretty cleanly. I also feel his matchup vs Little Mac is really bad simply because Yoshi has trouble getting him offstage due to his terrible Forward and Back throws. If you want to talk about Yoshi's overall potential being higher, I'd like to know how you'd deal with some of those matchups as he seems to lack good tools for them.
 
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Sinister Slush

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In 64 you could play almost anyone and do well, which is prolly why they don't even have a tier list lol. Although Pikachu was ahead of the curve because of his invincible UpB.
In Melee, while I don't play competitive melee and I never will again. Amsa single handedly made this character a bigger threat in the current melee scene where almost no Samus or CF mains exist and if they ever made a new Melee tier list, those two would fall down and Yoshi would prolly rise above them.

Also why do you keep bringing up Yoshi's throws? If you're seriously playing a Yoshi that revolves around grabs, that's most likely why you think he's so underwhelming.
I also won't say how I'll deal with them because I won't be able to until the Wii U version comes out next month.
 

Terotrous

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Also why do you keep bringing up Yoshi's throws? If you're seriously playing a Yoshi that revolves around grabs, that's most likely why you think he's so underwhelming.
It's not so much that the grab forms the core of his offense as the threat of the grab makes his other offense more potent, like with every character who tries to get in your face. Unfortunately, people are starting to realize that his grab isn't very dangerous, so they're not afraid to take grabs and that weakens moves like FSmash and Dash Attack. He also just generally lacks horizontal knockback period, FSmash, DSmash and Bair are his only moves with any horizontal distance.
 
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Terotrous

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Anyway, I suppose I should mention that my Yoshi impressions are based on For Glory, which does not quite match Tournament settings. FD would not be one of my first stage picks for Yoshi, due to the generally vertical nature of his gameplay and the quality of his aerial mobility I would much rather have Battlefield. While Yoshi vs Little Mac might be 3-7 on FD, it's probably 5-5 or maybe even 6-4 on Battlefield. I suspect Yoshi is probably being pushed down half a tier by the limitation of only playing on FD, in actual tournament settings he may have the tools to be the low end of high tier.
 
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Nikes

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Funny, in my experience in For Glory mode so far I've had no problem with Little Mac, even if our moves don't send him heaps far offstage unless he's vectoring badly, it's still not that hard to get him off stage just a little to go for the off-stage Nair which eliminates his chances of getting back, even soft Nair does the job.
 

Terotrous

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I've had trouble sending him far enough that he can't just immediately fast fall and grab ledge before I can attempt to Nair or Bair. What move are you using to get him offstage in the first place?
 

Sinister Slush

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Funny, in my experience in For Glory mode so far I've had no problem with Little Mac, even if our moves don't send him heaps far offstage unless he's vectoring badly, it's still not that hard to get him off stage just a little to go for the off-stage Nair which eliminates his chances of getting back, even soft Nair does the job.
I don't think he knows other moves exist outside of grab.
Like Dtilt/Smash.
 

Terotrous

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I don't think he knows other moves exist outside of grab.
Like Dtilt/Smash.
You are aware that all of Little Mac's grounded Smash attacks have armor, right? He can just FSmash right through your DTilts. FTilt is also scary fast and will beat most of your ground options. Playing footsies with him really isn't a great idea in general, Little Mac's footsies are the best in the game bar none.


I actually heard a piece of advice to use neutral B (while facing away from the edge) on another forum. That actually might work, after he mashes out of the egg you could try Nair. I'll try that out later.
 
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Scatz

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Why are you all trying to figure out where he'll be placed on a tierlist when 3DS has sub-optimal controls? Wait until the WiiU version comes so that we actually have adequate control over our character(s) again. Just figure out strategies to best implement against characters (without needing the Cstick), then get in depth when the fun stuff makes it here.
 

Terotrous

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Why are you all trying to figure out where he'll be placed on a tierlist when 3DS has sub-optimal controls? Wait until the WiiU version comes so that we actually have adequate control over our character(s) again. Just figure out strategies to best implement against characters (without needing the Cstick), then get in depth when the fun stuff makes it here.
Because who can wait a whole month?

Honestly though, the controls in the 3DS version aren't that horrible. They're not optimal, but I don't feel like many of the issues I'm having can be blamed on controls.
 

Sinister Slush

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Why are you all trying to figure out where he'll be placed on a tierlist when 3DS has sub-optimal controls? Wait until the WiiU version comes so that we actually have adequate control over our character(s) again. Just figure out strategies to best implement against characters (without needing the Cstick), then get in depth when the fun stuff makes it here.
Most of the arguments Scatz, while was tierlist based from more of Tero's side, it was more of trying to get him to understand that Yoshi isn't mediocre in this game as he's putting him out to be since he just kept mentioning throws and all that jazz.
You are aware that all of Little Mac's grounded Smash attacks have armor, right? He can just FSmash right through your DTilts. FTilt is also scary fast and will beat most of your ground options. Playing footsies with him really isn't a great idea in general, Little Mac's footsies are the best in the game bar none.
You know who else has super armor? DK when he uses neutral B, does that mean we can't do anything to him or punish? No.

You know who else has Armor, Yoshi. Does that mean people can't gimp him offstage? No. Just because Little mac has super armor doesn't mean he has it permanently. We'll eventually knock him around and kick him offstage. Every single one of your arguments is extremely flawed and silly.

At this point all of your posts might as well have just +1 next to them.
 
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Terotrous

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You know who else has super armor? DK when he uses neutral B, does that mean we can't do anything to him or punish? No.
There's a huge difference between DK Neutral B and Little Mac's FSmash. First of all, DK has to charge his neutral B, so if he whiffs it, it's still a big win for you even if you can't get a punish. Little Mac's smash attacks are comparably fast, strong, and are fairly safe, but he can do them whenever he wants. He also has the ability to attack upwards, too, which DK doesn't.

There's simply not much room to debate that Little Mac's grounded normals are the best in the game. If your strategy against Little Mac is "go in on the ground and play footsies", you're going to lose more often than not.


You know who else has Super Armor, Yoshi. Does that mean people can't gimp him offstage? No.
Yoshi's double jump armor does indeed get him out of a number of situations. There's a fair number of powerful setups that he can escape by double jumping (even if you take the hit, you won't get launched), and it makes it hard to gimp him in certain situations. Acting like his armor is not an asset is just silly.


Every single one of your arguments is extremely flawed and silly.
So far, pretty much everything you've said has been a ridiculous strawman that is clearly nonsense to anyone who knows the first thing about this game. Perhaps you should actually try playing Yoshi in Smash 4 before you try to discuss his matchups and moveset potential.
 
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Sinister Slush

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And your own posts hasn't been strawman with saying Yoshi is overrated? Also I don't need to play the game to see how good Yoshi is compared to Mario or something. The characters I mentioned earlier that'll most likely be in the S-B tier area is basically what I haven't seen with Yoshi fighting em cause they have yet to happen.

A good handful of debaters or even back then BBR members didn't even play brawl and were in the backroom. Proving that you don't need to play just to know the mechanics or MUs of the game.
 

Terotrous

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I don't need to play the game to see how good Yoshi is compared to Mario or something.
This is sig-worthy.

Mario got a lot better too, btw, he's definitely viable now. It's far too early to call Yoshi > Mario.


A good handful of debaters or even back then BBR members didn't even play brawl and were in the backroom. Proving that you don't need to play just to know the mechanics or MUs of the game.
And not coincidentally there's a lot of misinformation out there about Brawl, like the notion that landing a hit confers no advantage to the attacker because you can't get guaranteed follow-ups. You can always tell who the people who don't play the game are because they say ridiculous things like that.
 

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As usual, Bigz is (mostly) right. 3DS version is great for learning mechanics and strategy and implementing those things. Some people will master the controls (especially if they have an XL). Some people will make it a point to wait until the WiiU version to master the game or the character.

Personally, I really like the 3DS version, but know that I could be taking more control of my character and the match on a pad (or a stick). That said, I would still take 3DS "seriously," but not freak out when something I wanted to do escaped me because of what I was playing on.

Slush, if you don't own the game now and don't plan on owning the game, I think it's pretty silly to admit that and then begin to make statements or opinions because that's telling us that 1] they're not grounded in any sort of experience and 2] they're powered by hear-say and generally uninformed. Even borrowing the game periodically doesn't give a real strong picture of what the game is and how to play it. Having opinions is fine, but having uninformed opinions and using them to challenge people who you think are making out-of-line statements is not very productive. If you don't agree with Terotrous, you know, it's fine, but for someone with not "much of an opinion," you've said quite a bit. I recommend getting the game to get some real hands-on time if you mean to contribute. If not, that's great, but please wait to get the WiiU version so that your words will have some weight and not be so argumentative.

Regarding Terotrous' opinion, he's mostly headed in the right direction. While I do think his criticisms aren't entirely level-headed, they are in line with the thinking of what makes Smash characters good from past games--character traits which have always been borderline (and over-the-line) ridiculous. This game has toned down on those traits quite a bit across the board, I think, so with that in mind, Terotrous isn't terribly far off.

After a good deal of time with the game almost specifically centered on Yoshi, I think Yoshi has gotten slightly better. An opinion I've had of Yoshi post N64 (where almost everyone was good) is that he's always been a decent character, but he's always been bad relative to the other ridiculous characters in the game, who typically don't have to play by the rules. This version of Yoshi keeps close the spirit of his design (including the weaknesses) while removing all the arbitrary limitations he had so he could use his natural strengths to succeed without being crushed by characters who didn't care about the game and without him having to break the rules himself.

People who don't know much about Yoshi are drooling over his "top tier" (?) status in this game, but Yoshi has received smart nerfs as well as some well deserved buffs.

Regarding his improvements, jumping out of shield is super amazing Hollywood top tier buff number one, without question. Yoshi jumping out of shield gives him a critical system-wide option that gives him more reasons to get into shield since lightshielding has gone. Another improvement is Yoshi's new stance and size; he's a little smaller and stands upright, which decreases his vulnerable areas at any point in time. At first I thought this was a boon and a curse since so much of previous Yoshi play relied on the old bait-and-switch playstyle of stretching and bouncing his frame in different directions, but I think something like that is more matchup-based and shouldn't have been a reliable foundation of character play. Another improvement is the increase in KO moves, which is HUGE. Yoshi's primary weakness has always been landing the finishing blow despite having great movement options in almost every game. Now, Yoshi's movement is a little more normalized, but he has many more options at more points in time to scoring a winning hit. Many of Yoshi's moves have new and increased utility, which is also fantastic.

Regarding his cutbacks, Yoshi has fallen prey mostly to the system changes. He (currently) has no way to DJC; now, this doesn't mean he is "missing" something, but it just means he isn't fully effective at so many different ranges and angles. His offense is a bit more standardized with DJC gone (which I think is unfortunate, but it is what it is). Another system change that doesn't benefit him straight up is the new edge grabbing mechanic. I'm tempted to say this doesn't matter anyway because Yoshi's double jump does not dip anymore, meaning he has to slide to grab the edge instead of just running off and double jumping into it. A nerf he received (a smart nerf) was his across-the-board damage reduction. Almost everything does less damage--this is a trade-off for the increased utility his moveset now has. The lack of untumbling also hurts, I think. Actually, I think the lack of untumble REALLY hurts.

The last nerf I want to talk about is the change to Yoshi's playstyle. As I noted earlier, previous Yoshi play involved lots of smoke and mirrors with his attacks and his body because of how he got to stretch to perform many of his techniques. This, in turn, began to morph into the Smash mainstay of "hard reads" which is a terrible way to play a character in any game. Solid gameplay became less solid and more based around extremely risky guesses with reward that just wasn't up to par. Yoshi's forward and up smashes are great examples of this; previously, they were extremely bendy moves that messed with your opponent's sense of spacing and now the moves have primarily lost that function, but instead function a little more reliably up front for KOs. Part of the reason tournament level Yoshi play is so "exciting" for everyone else to watch and scary for some Yoshi players to watch is because in other games sans N64, you had to mask the weaknesses of the character in this super risky style of play while also relying on his natural and fundamental strengths (which are surprisingly universally effective, seeing as he's one of the more unique characters). With the new game and the new Yoshi, you can be played much more intelligently with less reliance on gimmicks (at least for now) and more thought into solid play and creating traps for opponents by putting them into uncomfortable, compromising positions. How is this a nerf? Sounds like a buff, right? The nerf is a player nerf; I think it will take a while for people to stop looking for gimmicks and begin looking for more solid ways to execute and perform.

Is Yoshi the best? Probably not. He's pretty good, though. What keeps Yoshi from being super good? I don't think it's specific things like "this combo isn't real" or "he can't force that situation", but more general things like how he interacts with the game and its characters. I have a post I want to make later that goes into specifics like his grab game and some of his adjusted normals.

P.S. - Wow, I didn't even see the matchup posts and the posts talking about Yoshi in other games smh lmao I'ma have to make some posts when I get back tonight, dayum.
 
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Sinister Slush

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I don't plan on owning the inferior 3ds version.
I'm buying the wii u version once it's out on the 21st next month for me. Dunno on others since I believe it's Dec 5th and so on for UK and Japan?
 
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Terotrous

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Is Yoshi the best? Probably not. He's pretty good, though. What keeps Yoshi from being super good? I don't think it's specific things like "this combo isn't real" or "he can't force that situation", but more general things like how he interacts with the game and its characters. I have a post I want to make later that goes into specifics like his grab game and some of his adjusted normals.
Thanks for this post, it had a lot of good info. I would really like to see that post about the grab game, if there are any good tricks or setups to get more value out of grabs I feel like that would help my overall game a lot.

Anyway, I agree that Yoshi is pretty good. I'm not trying to say that he's bad, I just think that this game has a lot of pretty good characters. I think we'll have a situation similar to PM where there's really just 3 main tiers, high, mid, and low, with most characters being mid. I also think he would be better if we could pick stages, because FD is pretty clearly not his best stage.
 

Scatz

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His moveset in any smash game never really favored flat stages. Brawl was the slight exception because of Pivot Grab's ability to be spammed with good chances of landing. One thing I can say is that Yoshi's tools have always been close to borderline broken through the mechanics, but are shy because of the lack of use-ability and slight reductions on said moves to prevent said brokenness from happening (Dair & DownB on shields is a big example).

Even with the tech that's been found out recently, it's not extremely versatile because of what is needed to be used to activate said move (pivot grab for one); however, I feel like some of these techs can set up for better frame traps than the previous versions when used correctly.

Yoshi (on the tech side), still requires a handful of gambles before getting the benefits that other characters get, which will keep him from being the best. At the same time, I feel that he'll be one of the said characters to contend, but ultimately shy from top tier status due to his inability to typically handle characters a good deal faster than him.

Shiri, I'm always almost right LOL. I just never write enough to make my points 100% correct (lazy). =P

Edit: My stance on the 3DS wasn't to state that they're terrible controls. They're actually pretty decent, but one can't deny that the optimization that the CCPro, GCN Controller, and Wiichuck gave is more flexible in allowing the options that we use consistently than the 3DS. Which is why I said that certain matchups can feel weird because you're not able to access those options as easily. I'll re-iterate, when the WiiU version drops, heads will roll from having no more hindrance in controls, movement, etc.
 
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Sinister Slush

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I'm not sure if we wanna call that glitch a tech. Nobody is sure, but who knows if they'll have it fixed in the Wii U version or when they'll have a patch to update it for 3DS.
 

Scatz

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Such is how games with patches go. If it comes out, it's a tech until it gets patched.
 

Nikes

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I've had trouble sending him far enough that he can't just immediately fast fall and grab ledge before I can attempt to Nair or Bair. What move are you using to get him offstage in the first place?
Apologies for the late response, it went to crashboards mode last night and at 3AM, wasn't sure how long it would be down for.

So back to topic, don't get me wrong Little Mac is definitely a threat with his attack speed and armor. But, we can do things like short hop egg throw to stuff against him, eg egg lay then wait for him to pop out and punish, Nairs good. We can space pivot grabs and such after a baiting an approach, and he will approach. a
Approaching from the air is easy but even dash attack still works mostly because they're most likely attacking already.
We don't need to worry about staling our kill moves against him due to how easy he is to just gimp straight up.

Some of this may be player dependant but generally it should all work.
 

CelestialMarauder~

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Just gonna throw out there for the little mac discussion that he is equally as bad in the air as he is good on the ground. If you can say he has the best footsies in the game, i'd feel safe to say he has the worst landings in the game. His 3 landing options in this matchup are side b, counter, airdodge and MAYBE neutral b. I think that might still have super armor in the air.(If he does anything else feel free to hard punish on reaction). Counter and Airdodge both straight up lose to a dash grab but you can punish even harder if you're aware enough. For the Side b option, if you know the range on it, you can usually be pretty sure which direction he's going to go with it. Like if he's about 3/4 of the way across FD in any direction he can't go towards the edge because he will SD. Punish accordingly.

Obviously you can't predict this kind of thing every single time, but the options are weighted really heavily in our favor while he's landing. I think this matchup for now is even until we figure out a sure fire way to deal with his ground game, but short hop egg tossess aren't that bad a placeholder until then.
 

chipndip

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Anyway, I suppose I should mention that my Yoshi impressions are based on For Glory, which does not quite match Tournament settings. FD would not be one of my first stage picks for Yoshi, due to the generally vertical nature of his gameplay and the quality of his aerial mobility I would much rather have Battlefield. While Yoshi vs Little Mac might be 3-7 on FD, it's probably 5-5 or maybe even 6-4 on Battlefield. I suspect Yoshi is probably being pushed down half a tier by the limitation of only playing on FD, in actual tournament settings he may have the tools to be the low end of high tier.
Yoshi rolls Lil Mac in For Glory from what I've seen. You're doing something wrong in my opinion. I'm not the number one player on the planet, but Mac shouldn't be a major issue for Yoshi from what I've seen on FG, and I'm a good deal above 100 matches. To boot, Yoshi appreciates FD over anything else since his Yoshi Bomb and Egg Throw doesn't get gimped by platforms. That's probably the number one most annoying thing I can think of...
 
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Terotrous

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Yoshi rolls Lil Mac in For Glory from what I've seen. You're doing something wrong in my opinion.
Nah, I really don't think that's a good matchup. I did beat a couple macs last night by using Egg Lay (even when not on the edge, the fact that it forces him to recover in the air is pretty useful, you can chase with Nair or Dair), but after losing to one I counterpicked with Mario and the matchup was like a thousand times easier, and I don't even play Mario that much. Mario just has much better tools to get Mac offstage (and bair is better than anything Yoshi has for keeping him from getting back).


To boot, Yoshi appreciates FD over anything else since his Yoshi Bomb and Egg Throw doesn't get gimped by platforms. That's probably the number one most annoying thing I can think of...
Battlefield doesn't really affect eggs when used from the ground, you can throw them (upward) through the platforms, and if you're on the ground, you can lob them across the stage low enough that they won't get caught on a platform either.

It does prevent you from using down B in some cases, but I'd take the various benefits that platforms give you over down Bs any day. You really shouldn't be down Bing from high in the air to the ground too often anyway.
 

Shiri

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Just waxing on some Yoshi history, since I hope this will benefit new and returning Yoshis alike.

Most of what's written here is fact, not opinion. Feel free to ask older Yoshis (Bringer, Moo, D1, Svampen, Bigz, etc.) for confirmation.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse by putting this first, but I feel like I have to because it's important and brings a good deal of context (something that's sadly missing from modern conversation) to what I'm typing. Smash players love their terminology (I've seen five new technique acronyms already and the game's been out for barely a week, WTF?), but it's important to understand their meaning. Yoshi's double jump is still, to my knowledge, a weight modifier. The jump increases his weight by some factor (in Melee it was a 300% increase) and the increased weight gives him what is equivalent to (and I do mean equivalent to) an aerial crouch cancel (in Melee terms, at least). Since the notion of crouch canceling disappeared with Brawl, I'm not entirely sure how the weight calculation changed (probably got a bit more complex), but the important take-away here is that the jump isn't an armored jump--beyond the terminology, this knowledge gives some insight into why the jump works the way it does any why certain things beat it early or can't beat it ever.

Another thing that I want to point out is that, when talking about one character being a better character than another, it's important to add context to that idea as well. Are you saying CharacterX consistently beats CharacterY or that CharacterX is better than CharacterY at the game in which they're played? Two very different ideas that, more often than not, yield very different results. Making the distinction matters.

On to some history.

Smash 64 was a crazy game because everyone was absolutely ********. The stupid part is that the best characters were just that much more ******** than everyone else to make them stand out while still making the game fun for most other characters. People like to dump on Link and Samus in this game, who were the two worst without question, although Link was still threatening on stage while Samus was not very threatening in many places at all. Yoshi was in here and did stuff, mostly damage (64% down air #Kreygasm), some shield breaking (up tilt yessssssssssssss) and cool, but akwardly slow DJC stuff. He was huge and heavy and didn't have much range outside of his smashes and forward tilt. Standard throw game, but having DJC and Egg Lay made characters very scared to shield (shielding was almost a no-no in 64 for a good deal of matchups/certain normals) and DJC normals like up air made characters mostly afraid to poke out in retaliation, so characters had to rely on good movement and the stage to get around Yoshi's fantastic damage and actual shield pressure. This is the beginning of the unfurling of one of Yoshi's primary weaknesses--chasing down mobile characters. Egg Toss in this game was very damaging, but difficult to control and wasn't very flexible while his jump and double jump were not quick either.

Melee was interesting because the game was super technical straight out of the gate in 01, with stuff still being found and named years and years later. Yoshi was even more interesting because of the extremely deliberate design choices made for the character. Melee Yoshi is infamous for not being able to actually play the game; by that, I mean there were several universal system mechanics that Yoshi either could not employ or had to use watered-down variations of in order to be effective. Melee started the shield jumping restriction, but gave him powerful lightshield and supershield (or parry, as its more widely known) mechanics. Eggs became more critical to gameplay, by making them more flexible, travel faster and knock back less, but cover more angles. Yoshi became a bit smaller in his frame while gaining some range through stretching and bending for attacks (moreso than in 64). The game was very combo oriented, so Yoshi's moves became less about KO power and more about leading into the finishing blow after a long combo. Yoshi still had damage, but took some damage hits on some moves, most notably down air (reduced to 54%). In keeping with the combo game mentality, Yoshi's throws also became more about combo starters than about knockback.

Yoshi's moveset in this game was actually quite scary; he had combo moves, KO moves, moves that had static knockback, moves with lots of disjoint and moves with partial invulnerability...the toolkit was borderline busted, but it was just not assembled as tightly as it could have been. A prime example of this is Yoshi's grab. As these games operate in discrete time measurements known as frames, motion over time is also considered to be discrete (or step-by-step) instead of one smooth motion. When Yoshi sticks his tongue out for his grab or dash grab, the grab hitbox lies only on the tip of his tongue. What this means is that as the motion for the grab occurs over time, there are gaps in the area that the grab hitbox will cover. Small enough or thin enough characters that are in the right place at the right time can have Yoshi's grab "pass through" them completely. What's happening is that the opponent's vulnerable areas are nested in the gaps between the portions of space covered by the grab hitbox on Yoshi's tongue. This phenomenon became even worse with the dash grab because the grab covered the same space over a smaller amount of time (Yoshi's tongue came out much faster for the dash grab, meaning the gaps between grabbable areas became much bigger). The grab hitbox for the dash grab also expired before Yoshi's tongue reached its visual limit. All these factors combined to give Yoshi one of the worst grab games and the worst dash grab game in Melee. In a game like Melee where you are only as strong as your most exploitable weakness, this was fatal for Yoshi as the game, over time, began to revolve more and more around grabs and how powerful grabbing was, even if the throws themselves weren't consistently good for all the good characters.

Defensively, Yoshi thrived by living on the edge in both senses of the term. He had a great ledge game with eggs including the oppressively technically demanding, but equally incomprehensibly effective reverse-edge-canceled-egg-regrab-smashname-somethingorother. He also got great mileage out of the nuances of his shield mechanic, with recent Yoshi play involving wowing spectators with defensive maneuvers that take place in windows no larger than 2 frames. Lightshielding with Yoshi was an extremely potent way to make space quickly in hairy situations and Yoshi even had a way to force powershields without pressing additional buttons. Yoshi's dodges were average (although the part of his air dodge that determined the height from which he could grab the stage was unfortunately not very high up on his frame), but his roll was unique because of its displaced vulnerability frames. Instead of being vulnerable where everyone else's rolls were, Yoshi's vulnerability frames were moved around and adjusted for a few reasons which are educated guesses on my part, but still unconfirmed.

Yoshi's matchups in Melee were extremely unfortunate. In a vacuum, Yoshi is actually a decent character in Melee considering the engine and his traits, but he suffered from one of the worst matchup spreads in the franchise's history. He had losing matchups in both extremes of the character quality spectrum and had two of his worst matchups ever right in the middle (Mario and Samus).Yoshi's Melee tournament viability has always come from tirelessly exploiting his strengths in his tilt game, movement, mastery of his shields and mastery of the DJC. While he still suffered from runaway game plans, he could turn mistakes into stocks taken. Sheik was public enemy #1 for years, but techniques for escaping chaingrabs emerged (chaingrab, dash chaingrab and pivot chaingrab work only up to 56%, at which point getting out becomes possible, but extremely tight the closer to 56% you are) and Yoshi players upped their mobility, making the matchup still horrendous, but technically playable. Fox and Falco were volatile matchups for Yoshi just because all three characters were so good at doing damage, but the matchups were generally a wash just because of how much better Fox and Falco were at the game overall. Marth, Ice Climbers and Peach were probably Yoshi's easiest tournament matchups, although that isn't saying much as these matchups were still hard, but they were "regular game" hard instead of "NASA level mathematics" hard, with Ice Climbers being probably the easiest "good character" matchup Yoshi had in the game. Out of the characters of lesser quality, Yoshi's harder matchups were with characters like Mewtwo, Ness and Zelda (all DJC characters, interestingly enough). The ugliest matchups Yoshi has ever had in any Smash game by far, however, are right smack in the middle with Mario and Samus. Generally classified as "really bad" by most players that have intimate knowledge of these two matchups, I personally consider them unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination. "Fighting Samus with Yoshi is like fighting a tank with sporks from Taco Bell." The Mario matchup wasn't very much different. The match with Samus involved her being able to CC Yoshi's entire offensive array while outdamaging him in every possible situation with bigger, better hitboxes and a wider array of tools that were effective in more ranges and at more angles. The match with Mario was less about Mario's traits and more about the fact that Mario abused all of Yoshi's weaknesses more succinctly than any other character in the game, hands down.

Brawl brought along a whole slew of silly, silly things (what a silly game). Yoshi became smaller and lost some his range, but most notably lost damage (especially on down air again, down to 33%) and KO power (up smash and downsmash, especially). Yoshi lost the manual DJC, but retained a lesser version using Egg Lay to force it. He lost manual control of his eggs; they instead had preset rails they would ride on depending on the initial angle of the throw. Yoshi's dash grab became a bit better, although it still would miss opponents occasionally and he gained a very potent pivot grab. He lost all of his shield tricks but still did not regain the ability to jump out of shield. All these changes meant Yoshi had to morph into a defensive character simply because he could not shoulder the risk of a predictable and risky (the worst combination) offense. He had to use mobility, augmented largely by DR (a powerful technique which let Yoshi control his ground spacing despite Brawl's slippery movement engine) and a very solid ground game with tilts and jabs and defensive pivot tools to hold his own. Again, this would be Yoshi's undoing as Brawl became a game of aerial combat and option reduction. Yoshi's tools would match up only as far as he could force it; he simply did not have every answer for multiple situations and became a very heavy commitment character, albeit without the heavy risk (and the bountiful reward) that came with Melee. Relatively, Yoshi improved over his Melee counterpart in relation to the other characters in the game, even though in a vacuum he became worse. The character was actually seen in tournament and had several names represent him well, which is much more than can be said for Melee Yoshi.

I was going to devote this paragraph to Brawl matchups, but I realized they didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

All of this brings us to current day Yoshi. I'm excited for his changes (I'll save the nitty gritty for another post), but the thing that concerns me most about him is his current inability to really control what's going on in a match. I think when the WiiU version drops and controlling the character will be much easier universally, this may change and of course as people get more comfortable with the character over time, this will change. Yoshi seems to not be able to really force situations and reduce options in these huge stages and he is currently lacking in the movement department outside of some pivots, so I think the push early on for Yoshi should be twofold: first, to really rebuild his ground game from scratch and learn how to exploit it (this was the most important thing for Brawl Yoshi players to learn and it took them the longest, in my view), especially since so many of his critical KO moves are aerial and you want to keep those ready; second, to really invest time in solid ways to increase Yoshi's movement speed and options, not anything gimmicky or unreliable, but real ways to get places faster and to allow Yoshi to attack from more angles. I think that even though he doesn't get to control a whole screen, one of his strengths I'm noticing so far is that he can put the opponent in some situations where they are forced to act first or risk taking an obvious power hit and from here he can then react to what the opponent does, but I don't think this happens often enough and during enough common situations for this to be a reliable strength. If Yoshi is going to break into that upper echelon, I think it will be when his players become smarter, more precise and more mentally agile than they have been in the past.
 
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EdreesesPieces

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Personally I think Yoshi is top tier. So far I think he is top 5 in the game. I'm double maining him with Peach, as he covers Peach's weaknesses (speed and weight) flawlessly. I think the combination of his ground speed/dash attack, and airgrab/long grab on the ground is lethal enough to give him the tools to play either aggressively or defensively against anyone. Yoshi has the unique ability to dictate how the match will be played. For that reason I think he's going to end up Top tier and for that reason I just love to use him. Against Zoners, I go aggressive and they hate it. Against aggressive players I go campy and defensive and they hate it. It's amazing his versatility.

I do severely miss the disjointed upsmash hitbox, though. I relied on that thing a lot, so I'm having to shake the habit of upsmashing everything.

Yoshi's got RIDICULOUS gimp potential with the egg launch custom special. That thing is going to gimp little mac at 0%, and has ridiculous ridiculous gimp potential overall.

Terotorus - I wouldn't worry about Lil Mac. Once the Wii u comes out and there's a decent amount of stages, if stage striking makes a return you'll never see a lil mac again, except if you choose to take someone to FD, which as yoshi makes no sense seeing as how either battlefield or stages that let him cancel his Down B on an incline are the best stages.
 
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Nordal

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I have mixed feelings about battlefield. I love that up tilt, SH uair, and up smash reach through the platforms, but the platforms make yoshi bomb reads more difficult to pull off.
 

chipndip

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Nah, I really don't think that's a good matchup. I did beat a couple macs last night by using Egg Lay (even when not on the edge, the fact that it forces him to recover in the air is pretty useful, you can chase with Nair or Dair), but after losing to one I counterpicked with Mario and the matchup was like a thousand times easier, and I don't even play Mario that much. Mario just has much better tools to get Mac offstage (and bair is better than anything Yoshi has for keeping him from getting back).



Battlefield doesn't really affect eggs when used from the ground, you can throw them (upward) through the platforms, and if you're on the ground, you can lob them across the stage low enough that they won't get caught on a platform either.

It does prevent you from using down B in some cases, but I'd take the various benefits that platforms give you over down Bs any day. You really shouldn't be down Bing from high in the air to the ground too often anyway.
1) Yoshi's eggs are the key to the match-up. You can throw off his rhythm with the eggs as well as cover your offense by throwing them in your trajectory while you hop towards him, then combo off the egg if it hits him or possibly punish an impatient opponent that blocks the egg and not the follow-up. Your dash attack is also a good tool for the match-up.

2) Yoshi wants to be throwing eggs from the AIR, not the GROUND. Much more liberating and many more angles to throw them with. Also, Yoshi Bomb is an extremely useful KO move that's usually gonna get stuffed by those dumb platforms unless you hit the first part off the ground. I have a friend that likes picking stages like Battefield, Arena Ferox, Yoshi's Island, and Lumiose City. Battieflied was dumb, but Arena Ferox was the WORST. Three separate KO moves got downright nullified by the constructs on the stage, and I eventually lost. Why on Earth must that be a thing? I mean, I was simply trying out :4zss: at the time, and I'm not good with her at all, but that was blatantly irritating.
 

Terotrous

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Yoshi seems to not be able to really force situations and reduce options...
I think this is a perfect summation of my problem with the character. I've noticed that against most characters, in order for me to get a kill at any reasonable percentage they basically have to do something dumb, so if the opponent just plays solid and doesn't take crazy risks I feel like my options to close out a stock are very limited. Yoshi does have very good defense, and most of my wins against decent players seem to come from just playing solid and outlasting them, but it's a risky game to play against the characters who can set up shenanigans because sooner or later they're going to catch you.


I was fooling around with some other characters tonight and I decided to try Pac-Man, and he just has setups for days with his fruits since he can put the fruit out and then act while it's still onscreen, and the various fruits all seem to give him an advantage in different situations. Even though I have way less experience with him, I felt like I had far more control over the pacing of the match.


1) Yoshi's eggs are the key to the match-up. You can throw off his rhythm with the eggs as well as cover your offense by throwing them in your trajectory while you hop towards him, then combo off the egg if it hits him or possibly punish an impatient opponent that blocks the egg and not the follow-up. Your dash attack is also a good tool for the match-up.
I will try more short hop egg, but honestly this may be hard to pull off on 3DS, because presumably the move you want to combo into upon landing is Bair, and that's a lot of back and forth motions for the poor circle pad. Honestly, I think a big part of why Mac is doing so well on For Glory is because without the aid of a proper controller it's hard to apply strong pressure with some characters.


2) Yoshi wants to be throwing eggs from the AIR, not the GROUND. Much more liberating and many more angles to throw them with. Also, Yoshi Bomb is an extremely useful KO move that's usually gonna get stuffed by those dumb platforms unless you hit the first part off the ground.[/quote]
I guess, but you can still do a short hop egg under the platform, it mainly just blocks the falling egg (which is better this time, that's true). As for Yoshi Bomb, I find it generally only kills in 2 situations, both of which are still okay on battlefield

- Opponent whiffs an air attack from beneath you during an airborne chase
- Opponent dash attacks from too far away and grounded bomb beats it clean (this is very useful in the Yoshi Mirror)


I mean, I guess different people have different stage preferences, for example I totally hate Lylat Cruise in PM even though I play Ivysaur and it's conceptually a good Ivy stage, but in general I think Battlefield gives Yoshi more advantage than FD.
 
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