Yoshi's potential

[Nikes]

Why do you say Usmash doesn't kill Mac until 180%? He's...very light. Even Bowser dies at that % with super-stale Usmash. Your moves would have to be extremely stale for that to happen...
Also, I've said this before in the Mac MU thread but if he shields stuff you can just Fthrow him offstage and use soft Nairs to push him away enough until he can't get back, as hard Nairs will knock him high enough to get back with Jolt Haymaker. (If you catch him countering by the time it's finished he'll be too low to recover anyway, go ahead and Bair stage spike him)

 

[Terotrous]

Not gonna bother with the rest of your post, but I will say you must be something else if you're letting a little mac, a very light character, live till 180+%

Little Mac is somewhat light, but he's also a fast faller, and fall speed matters much more than weight when it comes to vertical KOs. Of course, Bowser is even worse, as he's both heavy and falls decently fast.

180 is probably a bit too high vs Mac, it's more like 150 if UpSmash is fresh, but that's still way too high for it to be a practical kill option, particularly considering how strong Little Mac is when boosted by rage. Most of the rest of the cast likes to kill LM around 100-110%, by which time you'll usually have taken 130-140% yourself. It's necessary to kill him early to keep pace in the damage race since he hits so hard. God forbid if he's getting 2 KO punches per stock.

Also, I've said this before in the Mac MU thread but if he shields stuff you can just Fthrow him offstage and use soft Nairs to push him away enough until he can't get back, as hard Nairs will knock him high enough to get back with Jolt Haymaker. (If you catch him countering by the time it's finished he'll be too low to recover anyway, go ahead and Bair stage spike him)

Fthrow is a lot better than Bthrow (it recovers quicker and has a better angle), but for both of them Mac can usually just double jump and air dodge, Fthrow to Nair is never a true combo. It's also a bit tricky to get an fthrow off stage since that requires mac to be at the edge, and most macs will either stay near the center or try to force you to the edge.

It's definitely worth going for if you get into that situation, but it's not a guaranteed kill or anything the way a lot of characters can get stuff on Mac. Pretty much all of Yoshi's options against Mac are things that literally every character can do against Mac, and they generally do better than he does. A useful exercise to figure out the matchup is to put yourself in Mac's shoes, then ask yourself "which high tier character am I less afraid to fight than Yoshi?". Maybe Lucario, since he can kill early and prevent him from getting aura, but I can't think of many others.

 

[Terotrous]

Accidental double post.

 

[Z-Bone]

Yowzers! I made a comment about the Bowser matchup and I come back to find a war has broken out! lol, good times. I can see Little Mac being difficult for Yoshi, but Bowser, not a chance. Probably the two characters I fear least as Yoshi are Bowser and Charizard. (Side note: Why did they make Charizard so bad? ) Since we're talking about matchups, I'd say the hardest matchups FOR ME when I play Yoshi are Greninja, Sonic, Ganondorf...it really just depends on the skill of the player. But I've yet to have a problem with any Bowser.

I forgot to mention sword characters. Swords beat out feet and tail. Link, Marth, and Lucina can wreck Yoshi if played right.

 

[hadesblade]

Hi old friends. Long time no talk. Gonna preface this by saying all my experience from this game so far has been wifi.

As someone who stuggled hard with the sonic matchup in brawl, I've found it to be a ton easier in this game. If they spin at you, you shield. It's so cool that that's an option in this game for yoshi. But uh sonic feels like a very good matchup. We juggle him very hard unless he springs out, and if he springs, our high mobility is very useful for punishing his landings.

Little Mac is very scary. He hits really hard and kills really early. I've found the match up to be super momentum based. Often he gets a couple hits for a lot of damage, and you need to try to reset and find an opening. He dies super easily off the sides, and isn't the hardest character to grab/egg lay to help put him there. As far as little mac staying in the center of the stage... why would you follow him there? Just throw eggs or hop around platforms or something. There's no real reason to ever dash at little mac from a neutral position. Also please link me to a video of lil mac surviving a yoshi usmash above 160%. I suppose it's possible but I'm not a believer. I've killed him with grounded down b below 110% before with some amount of rage.

Of the matchups being discussed, those are the ones I have the most insight on. Also yoshi is awesome in this game and I love him

 

[Terotrous]

As far as little mac staying in the center of the stage... why would you follow him there? Just throw eggs or hop around platforms or something. There's no real reason to ever dash at little mac from a neutral position.

Yeah, the problem is that you don't really want to be pinned between the ledge either, and he dashes so fast that if you throw one egg he's in there. The best position is with Little Mac's back to the ledge, you've got solid options there, but it's hard to push him back to that spot since his footsies are so good.

Also please link me to a video of lil mac surviving a yoshi usmash above 160%. I suppose it's possible but I'm not a believer. I've killed him with grounded down b below 110% before with some amount of rage.

Grounded downB does have quite a bit more knockback than USmash. Also, it's possible the USmash may have been stale, as it's typically the go-to move to get damage after an Egg Lay. In any case, I have definitely seen him survive it to surprisingly high percents. Certainly, much higher percents then you'd like him to be surviving to.

Also yoshi is awesome in this game and I love him

Yes, I think Yoshi is one of the game's most complete characters. I don't think he's got anything that's super redonkulous, he's just very solid in pretty much every way.

 

[Z-Bone]

Just imagine how good Yoshi could be if his tongue stretched as far as it does in Super Mario Sunshine!

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, so these are Yoshi's adjustments in 1.0.4:

Dash attack has more recovery
Dair has slightly more landing lag
Neutral B is slightly slower


My thoughts on post-nerf Yoshi:

Of Yoshi's changes, the Dash Attack nerf is by far the most significant. Whiffing dash attack or doing it into a shield from long distance is now quite clearly unsafe. It is still somewhat safe if done at close range as it will go through the opponent's shield and most people can't punish at that range. I notice this change most in some of my tech trap setups, for example I used to like to dash attack after a jab combo, as if they did not tech it would hit and even if they did it put him in a good spot to continue pressure, but this is no longer safe.

In general, the weakening of Yoshi's Dash Attack somewhat reduces his approaching options, but in many of the situations where you would have previously used Dash Attack you can substitute short hop nair for similar effect. As such, it's likely now a good idea to play a bit more lame with eggs, which have not been weakened in any way, to soften the opponent up to the point where landing an Nair will grant some nice positional advantage. This probably makes opponents with reflectors somewhat harder than they were before. Overall though Yoshi is not hugely changed. The other two nerfs are very small and don't really change how you would use those two moves, and while Dash Attack was a great move it was never the core of what made Yoshi a good character. It's still not a terrible Dash Attack anyway, you just have to be more thoughtful with it.

I suspect he's still high tier and may even have risen as his matchups against Rosalina, Greninja, and Sheik got easier.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Hello. I've noticed that Yoshi's grounded down-special has been going backwards on me lately. I think it's a change because it has never happened to me until this patch.

When Yoshi is crawling backwards, he'll flip around and use the move instead.

Was this true in the pre-patch? I find it hard to believe, because this is happening to me a whole lot lately when before it never would.

 

[Arbitation]

Hello. I've noticed that Yoshi's grounded down-special has been going backwards on me lately. I think it's a change because it has never happened to me until this patch.

When Yoshi is crawling backwards, he'll flip around and use the move instead.

Was this true in the pre-patch? I find it hard to believe, because this is happening to me a whole lot lately when before it never would.

Yes I was just about to make a post about something I encountered. I'm kind of new so I might have missing terminology (or this might already be known) but it seems like Yoshi can do down-b and reverse-down-b while dashing.

EDIT: Could we reverse down-b before 1.04? I don't have 1.03 anymore.

 

[Terotrous]

I also noticed that I could perform a reverse down B (I used it to catch someone rolling behind me), but I didn't think it was new.

 

[Shiri]

It's not new.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

How much slower is neutral b? I cant really notice a difference!

Also the lag on dair is only landing lag right? Has the lag if you conplete the move in the air changed?

 

[Terotrous]

How much slower is neutral b? I cant really notice a difference!

Very very slightly. It's almost impossible to tell unless done side by side.

Also the lag on dair is only landing lag right? Has the lag if you conplete the move in the air changed?

Only landing lag. The move itself performs the same. It was already somewhat unsafe before so it doesn't change much.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Very very slightly. It's almost impossible to tell unless done side by side.



Only landing lag. The move itself performs the same. It was already somewhat unsafe before so it doesn't change much.

Awesome. These seem like minor changes that makes Yoshi less noob friendly without limiting his actual potential the way the nerfs to the other top chars have. Gonna have to agree with you that his status will have risen overall.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, so, as you may have heard by now, it appears that vectoring has been removed or at least significantly weakened in 1.0.4. Previously, you used to be able to hold up and mash jump to escape the situation whenever Yoshi did DThrow, but this seems like it is no longer possible. This makes Yoshi's throw game much more dangerous.

Despite the removal of vectoring, Dthrow to Uair still isn't a true combo on most characters, the opponent can mash airdodge to get out. However, it is now a very dangerous 50 / 50 between Uair and Dair. Uair will beat double jump, and Dair will beat air dodge. Note that the risk / reward on these moves is not the same. Uair does lesser damage but the risk is less, if they guess right with air dodge you're usually safe. Dair hits much harder, but if they guess right with double jump you're usually punishable. However, therein lies the game. The opponent knows Uair is usually the "better" option, so they'll attempt to dodge that more often, and you can sneak your Dairs in. Dair is a great demoralizer, too, it hits super hard and it just feels terrible to get caught in it, so it'll make the opponent wary of air dodging the next time, allowing you to land your Uairs.

There is also a third throw follow-up, which is just to throw an egg. Like Dair, this can be timed to beat air dodges (it might even beat double jump in some situations). However, this is a much lower risk / reward option. It's generally safe to go for the egg, but the reward is quite low, it doesn't do much damage if it lands. However, this does have the important property of preserving stage position. Against characters who have difficulty landing safely this can be a powerful option, too.


In general, I feel like with this system change, Yoshi is way scarier than he was before, as his excellent grab is now quite dangerous, and he may be a legitimate top tier character now. Of course, it remains to see how this change will affect other characters, who will also no doubt gain more true combos and mixups.

 

[Shiri]

Solid opinions on the grab game. The more 50/50 situations Yoshi can force, the better. His damage on correct guesses is great and the low risk options for him in this game are much lower risk than they ever have been. Here's to a solid patch.

 

[Terotrous]

Based on further testing on for glory, it seems like some characters with very quick double jumps can escape the 50/50. Greninja in particular. Of course, in the Yoshi mirror, Yoshi can also armor through the mixup with his double jump, though he may still get hit. It is quite solid on most of the cast though.

 

[Nikes]

Haven't tried it yet but maybe Dthrow > Bair? I mean that covers air dodges and it's a kill move.
If Nair works out of it then that'll be a fantastic Nair string setup.

 

[Z-Bone]

I've been looking for some reliable options out of the down throw. 50% isn't reliable, but it's pretty darn good. I'll have to mix in some Dairs and see how this works.

 

[Terotrous]

Haven't tried it yet but maybe Dthrow > Bair? I mean that covers air dodges and it's a kill move.
If Nair works out of it then that'll be a fantastic Nair string setup.

I suspect you can use Nair and Bair like Dair, but it's likely DI dependent due to the placement of their hitboxes. The thing I like about Dair is you don't have to read the DI at all, it has such a wide hitbox that it'll always hit.

Also, if it does hit, Dair will land all hits, which pops the opponent up at the end. Then you can chase with Nair or whatever else.