Yoshi vs. MK Matchup Discussion

[Kiwikomix]

So a bunch of Yoshi mainers have begun to think that Yoshi actually has an advantage over MK, primarily because his grabs and usmash outrange and outprioritize all of MK's ground and air approaches, with the possible exception of Dimensional Cape. I'm not entirely convinced, so I wanted to get your opinions on the matchup.

 

[Affinity]

The super armor on Yoshi's 2nd jump makes it hard to edgeguard him.

 

[Skyflyer]

I think so too. He can CG MK with ease. and then when you try to camp he'll throw eggs at you.

 

[Mmac]

I would have expect alot more discussion......

I guess I'll get things started...

First, Yoshi can actually kill MetaKnight quite easily, as Yoshi has 3 Different unavoidable kills on a grab release.

- Yoshi has Fair spike that is unavoidable on a Grab Release from the Edge, which can kill at 48% Fresh. However it is determine on the distance away from the ledge.
- Yoshi has an Nair, also unavoidable, From a Grab Release from the Edge, which can kill at about 85% Fresh, and activated point blank.
- Lastly, Yoshi has a unavoidable Usmash from the ground on Release, which kills at 115% Fresh

Yoshi also has a very good defencive game against him with Pivot Grabs, and a Solid Usmash with Invincibility Frames, as Kiwi already explained. Yoshi has the added benefit of a Projectile, which works well at gathering Damage when MetaKnight is off the ledge, or can pester him if he decides to hold his ground. Since MetaKnight's attacks are Multihit based, it makes it hard for him to pierce through his Double Jump Armour when edgeguarding. Also his poor airspeed makes it hard for MetaKnight to chase after him if he gets through.

Anyways, Discuss

 

[Throwback]

I did mention this thread in the big 'why MK shouldn't be banned' thread, but didn't get any bites unfortunately. I'd love to see this topic discussed in depth.

 

[Shadow 111]

i'd like to bring up that yoshi can give mk a hell of a hard time if you are not smart and run right into his grab... cuz he WILL give you hell lol. racks up a bit of damage by doing it across the stage (especially on FD, which you should ban vs yoshi)... but it is still mk's favor regardless... yoshi still has a pretty crappy recovery... but watch for his grabs... try to stay directly above his tongue and you cna get hits in without being grabbed.. you can be grabbed out of oyur torando by yoshi too. but if you torando just above where his tongue will come out .. then you don't have to worry about it
i play pr1de though, who is in my crew.. i got a lot of practice against yoshi in by playing him recently.
(quoted from a different thread)
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as i talked to you on that other thread already kiwikomix^^^.. i wanted to add some more stuff.
honestly, i don't believe yoshi counters him.. i think it is maybe 55/45 mk advantage but THAT slightly as to say that it is about even.
yoshi's weight could give mk a problem with killing. also mk's usual edgeguard kills are much tougher to get off on yoshi do to the superaromor on the double jump.
yoshi's retreating pivvot grabs make it tough to approach with mk as well.. so do eggs so it's tough to approach from the sky .. and if you approach by running at him you will get grabbed.. what i usually do is running side step when i think the grab is coming.

hmm maybe it could be 50/50 though.. but just IMO i don't think it's yoshi's favor.
you should aslo show pr1de this thread... since he has a lot of mk experience as he plays me, has played m2k, and plays jman and forute (those ppl are all good mk players.. especially m2k obviously -_- lol and forute is a bit better than me and jman as well, going by tournament placings.)
with all that experience i am sure he has A LOT to say. XD

 

[PRiDE]

GOD DAMMIT!!! PRiDE its an I IIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!! lolol

 

[Mmac]

I wish people would just stick with one topic when discussing Yoshi. I really don't want to look at 3 different threads....

try to stay directly above his tongue and you cna get hits in without being grabbed.. you can be grabbed out of oyur torando by yoshi too. but if you torando just above where his tongue will come out .. then you don't have to worry about it
i play pr1de though, who is in my crew.. i got a lot of practice against yoshi in by playing him recently.
(quoted from a different thread)

The only problem is that if the Yoshi expects you to go High, then he can just counter it with a Usmash (Yes, it can beat the Tornado). The problem isn't that he has a bunch of Chaingrabbing and Release Grab stuff (Although they are a much added benefit), but rather is that Yoshi's Defencive game is too great against him. If you just run in there, you are not going to make it though. You are required to play smart against him.

yoshi's weight could give mk a problem with killing. also mk's usual edgeguard kills are much tougher to get off on yoshi do to the superaromor on the double jump.

Plus his poor Airspeed compared to Yoshi's doesn't help the matter either.

yoshi's retreating pivvot grabs make it tough to approach with mk as well.. so do eggs so it's tough to approach from the sky .. and if you approach by running at him you will get grabbed.. what i usually do is running side step when i think the grab is coming.

Yoshi's don't do retreating pivots (Or at least I don't...) Quick Pivot Grabbing makes it so that Yoshi can Pivot on the spot, basically turning it into a Standing Grab.

Spotdodging works, but if you're too slow, then Yoshi has plenty of time to recover from the little lag he has from the grab, Spotdodge himself to avoid the Dsmash, and has just enough time to let off his own Dsmash before you can do a 2nd one.

Edit: Someone pointed out that they could just Counterpick a Platform heavy stage like Battlefield/Lylat. Honestly though, I think it will only improve slightly at best. You're limiting his ability to chaingrab, but at the cost of adding in platforms. The problem is that you're giving Yoshi Defencive Cover, limiting you're already limited approaches even more. Not to mention that Yoshi excels greatly at Low Ground with Rising Airs, a Long Range Usmash, a good Anti-Air Projectile, and you're making it easier to land Uair's on you. Plus they wouldn't stop a release grab Usmash most of the time anyways.

 

[Ulevo]

The super armor on Yoshi's 2nd jump makes it hard to edgeguard him.

It might be worth mentioning that Footstooling fixes that, and he can't recover afterwards.

 

[Mmac]

It might be worth mentioning that Footstooling fixes that, and he can't recover afterwards.

It might be worth mentioning that Footstooling only happens if Yoshi's isn't already in the process of an action. If Yoshi is Airdodging or Attacking, then you can't Footstool him

 

[Ulevo]

It might be worth mentioning that Footstooling only happens if Yoshi's isn't already in the process of an action. If Yoshi is Airdodging or Attacking, then you can't Footstool him

This is true, but I wanted to bring it up. I don't believe Yoshi has an advantage, but I really can't contribute much into this discussion unfortunately. I've never played a Yoshi.

 

[Will_]

I don't understand. How is Yoshi grabbing MK?

 

[Mmac]

I don't understand. How is Yoshi grabbing MK?

Pivot Grabs

 

[Will_]

Pivot grabs are great against those who don't know about it, yeah. I ran into a few when I thought I could fair camp Yoshi. MK can work around the pivot grab by switching it up into an aerial approach whenever...well, whenever he likes. MK still dictates the pace with his loop, his aerials, nado, dsmash, etc.. If you have enough time to throw out a pivot grab and the MK runs into it/sat in range long enough for you to think about trying it, I think that's more of a player deficiency than a matchup factor.

 

[Affinity]

It might be worth mentioning that Footstooling fixes that, and he can't recover afterwards.

Ah, good to know. Thanks.

 

[Mmac]

You're acting like his Pivot Grab is the slowest thing in the world. Are you sure you're not getting it confused with his other grabs that are actually that slow?

The problem is that Yoshi can stop every approach he has with just Two Moves. Pivot Grabs stop every Ground Approach he has (Dash, Ground Tornado, SideB, SH Air at below 45 Degrees), and the Usmash covers the rest (Air Tornado, SH Air at above 45*, LH Air)

 

[Will_]

Lol, well you're acting like MK's approach is predictable and easy to counter. How do you know whether to Pivot Grab or Usmash as I dash toward you?

And Pivot Grab is fast, but it ain't dsmash or ftilt fast. Or Sh dair/uair fast, or shuttle loop/glide attack fast, etc..

 

[darkspatan117]

Ulevo can Yoshi up smash MK with a grab release setup

 

[Kiwikomix]

Lol, well you're acting like MK's approach is predictable and easy to counter. How do you know whether to Pivot Grab or Usmash as I dash toward you?

And Pivot Grab is fast, but it ain't dsmash or ftilt fast. Or Sh dair/uair fast, or shuttle loop/glide attack fast, etc..

I don't think it needs to be that fast if it outranges all of MK's ground options. And if you're going in from the air, you can just be egg layed.
Just playing devil's advocate.

@ Darkspartan: Yes he can. Although I'm not Ulevo.

 

[Mmac]

Lol, well you're acting like MK's approach is predictable and easy to counter. How do you know whether to Pivot Grab or Usmash as I dash toward you?

And Pivot Grab is fast, but it ain't dsmash or ftilt fast. Or Sh dair/uair fast, or shuttle loop/glide attack fast, etc..

Well, if you're running and don't do anything too late, then he's obviously going to do something ground based. Even if he does SH from that distance, he can still pivot grab him (Unless you DI away, but then you won't be able to punish and just be at step one). If you jump too early, then well I think he's obviously going to be in the air. There's only a certain spot where he's going to have an hard time predicting what he's going to do. But if you do it too early or too late, then Yoshi is going to easily going to pick the option best for it.

Yes, we all know that MetaKnight is fast, but that doesn't mean he's impossible to defend against. Especially since Pivot Grabs outranges his moves, and Usmash has invincibility frames.

 

[Will_]

MK can easily fake out somebody trying to predict them that specifically. I can SH, FF and resume dashing before usmash lag cools off. I can jump the moment you make any motion and be out of range for both usmash and pivot grab. Hell, I can dash in, perform a grounded shuttle loop out of the dash and move in for the GA and Dsmash afterwards. That takes care of both of your prepared moves. Then you have to find something different and MK can do any of his other approaches he has in his toolbox to keep you guessing.

I don't think it needs to be that fast if it outranges all of MK's ground options.

It definitely outranges, but MK isn't going to sit there at a range where it's Yoshi's favor. If he is, then he's baiting the pivot grab.

 

[Mmac]

MK can easily fake out somebody trying to predict them that specifically. I can SH, FF and resume dashing before usmash lag cools off.

What's the distance we're talking about here? Sounds like he's doing it pretty far away. I doubt Yoshi will try to Usmash him from an impossible distance. Plus it isn't that laggy anyways

I can jump the moment you make any motion and be out of range for both usmash and pivot grab.

Right, but what are you going to do there? He's going to know how to space, and if you Longhop, then you won't be able to punish the resulting lag of the attacks in time(If he does an attack anyways). Not to mention if you jump as soon as he Pivot's, he'll probably snag you in time anyways.

Hell, I can dash in, perform a grounded shuttle loop out of the dash and move in for the GA and Dsmash afterwards. That takes care of both of your prepared moves. Then you have to find something different and MK can do any of his other approaches he has in his toolbox to keep you guessing.

That would be good, if Pivot Grabs didn't grab him out of his Shuttle Loop/Glide Attack, or if Yoshi didn't have invincibility framed Usmash

It definitely outranges, but MK isn't going to sit there at a range where it's Yoshi's favor. If he is, then he's baiting the pivot grab.

If he's in range, then he's going to get grabbed. It's as simple as that.

 

[Will_]

With MK, to react, rather than anticipate, is almost always too late. Anticipating MK, someone with plenty of offensive options, is also marginally difficult depending on the player. To think that pivot grab+usmash brickwalls MK's entire approach is silly. Even if PG beats MK's X, Y and Z and usmash beats MK's A, B and C, you have to pick the right move for the situation. If people always chose the right attack at the right time, they'd never get hit.

That would be good, if Pivot Grabs didn't grab him out of his Shuttle Loop/Glide Attack, or if Yoshi didn't have invincibility framed Usmash

Grounded SL has invincibility frames as well. The range and speed of a grounded SL beats both usmash and pivot grab, so you had to move or shield to not get hit, and GL messes with Yoshi's bad out-of-shield options. Also, you'd have to predict where I'd land with the GL to hit with your PG.

If he's in range, then he's going to get grabbed. It's as simple as that.

It's not, really. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I'm just a no name, but if you think you've got MK pegged down to the wire, try him out. Win tournaments and change our mind. Until then, you've only got theories that you have difficulty even backing up.

One thing I can say for sure about the matchup is that a good amount of MK players(and players in general) have little experience with a tournament primed Yoshi, or at least much less than they do with MK/Snake/G&W etc.. That is something in your favor.

 

[Mmac]

With MK, to react, rather than anticipate, is almost always too late. Anticipating MK, someone with plenty of offensive options, is also marginally difficult depending on the player. To think that pivot grab+usmash brickwalls MK's entire approach is silly. Even if PG beats MK's X, Y and Z and usmash beats MK's A, B and C, you have to pick the right move for the situation. If people always chose the right attack at the right time, they'd never get hit.

But it's still hard to fool Yoshi to pick the wrong option. Like I said, if you do it too late, then it's too late. If you do it too early, then MetaKnight will be too obvious with his motives. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you got to admit that it's going to take a lot of effort just to get hits on him.

Grounded SL has invincibility frames as well. The range and speed of a grounded SL beats both usmash and pivot grab, so you had to move or shield to not get hit, and GL messes with Yoshi's bad out-of-shield options. Also, you'd have to predict where I'd land with the GL to hit with your PG.

Problem Number 2. Invincibility frames does NOT prevent grabs (I tested). Even if it does, it doesn't stop it. So Pivot Grabs doe indeed beat it. Bad out of shield doesn't matter when Both attacks beats a Glide Attack.

It's not, really. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I'm just a no name, but if you think you've got MK pegged down to the wire, try him out. Win tournaments and change our mind. Until then, you've only got theories that you have difficulty even backing up.

Is this your final defence, conversion? What? Is this like a religion?.... But of course! How foolish of me! It's all starting to make sense now.....

And I seem to do a **** fine job backing up my so called "Theories"

One thing I can say for sure about the matchup is that a good amount of MK players(and players in general) have little experience with a tournament primed Yoshi, or at least much less than they do with MK/Snake/G&W etc.. That is something in your favor.

So? If they only focus on characters that are just as popular as MetaKnight is, then he deserves to lose. Besides, Good Players in general will adept to the situation anyways. If he doesn't know about Yoshi's defences, then MetaKnight will eventually adapt and will try to find a way to get through. No wall is invincible, but the fact that MetaKnight has no direct approach, should say alot about this matchup

 

[MetaKnight63]

I'll provide a hypothesis for this matchup.

Based on what I've seen, it sounds like Yoshi statiscally is better than MK b/c of its projectile.

However, just b/c Yoshi's manuevers can effectively trap MK's preferred abilities, does not mean that the Yoshi mainer can effectively use them. Besides that, if there's like a 2 stock or a 5-min match, there's the factor of a MK mainer adapting to the Yoshi's preferred moves. This matchup is too close and could go back and forth, but what I'm saying is that it depends on the skill of the player's facing off.

 

[Will_]

Is this your final defence, conversion? What? Is this like a religion?.... But of course! How foolish of me! It's all starting to make sense now.....

I would like it to be, lol. I hate talking about matchups for this long, I'd rather play it.

Problem Number 2. Invincibility frames does NOT prevent grabs (I tested). Even if it does, it doesn't stop it. So Pivot Grabs doe indeed beat it. Bad out of shield doesn't matter when Both attacks beats a Glide Attack.

Grounded SL outranges PG. I dunno if GA outranges, but it doesn't really need to since it comes out faster. MK can just glide chase until you stop running to PG.

And I seem to do a **** fine job backing up my so called "Theories"

I could say the same about myself. The problem here is perspective. I admit that the only Pivot-grabbing yoshi regularly I fight is a local one, and he's decent. However, he still has problems when I just run up and SL+GA while he tries to usmash/fsmash/pivot grab. Maybe he's doing it wrong. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Either way, until I face a better yoshi that'll beat me down for it(which he just might), I'm convinced that Yoshi has a problem dealing with MK's approach and a larger problem when MK is inside. I would very much like to hear player's accounts with the matchup firsthand or see some vids.

So? If they only focus on characters that are just as popular as MetaKnight is, then he deserves to lose. Besides, Good Players in general will adept to the situation anyways. If he doesn't know about Yoshi's defences, then MetaKnight will eventually adapt and will try to find a way to get through. No wall is invincible, but the fact that MetaKnight has no direct approach, should say alot about this matchup.

The average tournament player cannot focus on a character that isn't present. I've been to three monthlies and FAST1, and I have yet to fight a strong Yoshi player outside of my local friend.

 

[Chaco]

Alright well her;s my two cents. MK's approach does not have a big impact on Yoshi, all he has to do is start out with an ETS and get out of the way.

And your friend might just be messing up as Yoshi...I mean if he's running directly into your attacks...that's kinda common knowledge not to do...

 

[Mmac]

Grounded SL outranges PG. I dunno if GA outranges, but it doesn't really need to since it comes out faster. MK can just glide chase until you stop running to PG.

No, it doesn't. Pivot grab actually outranges Shuttleloop. Glide Attack doesn't either, and it doesn't matter if it comes out faster because it's predictable.

I could say the same about myself. The problem here is perspective. I admit that the only Pivot-grabbing yoshi regularly I fight is a local one, and he's decent. However, he still has problems when I just run up and SL+GA while he tries to usmash/fsmash/pivot grab. Maybe he's doing it wrong. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Either way, until I face a better yoshi that'll beat me down for it(which he just might), I'm convinced that Yoshi has a problem dealing with MK's approach and a larger problem when MK is inside. I would very much like to hear player's accounts with the matchup firsthand or see some vids.

He probably is doing it wrong. Pivot grabs outranges Shuttleloop, and if you're just dashing into him and doing it constantly, then he probably has problems with reflexes. Plus Fsmash should be a clear sign that he's not that good. I don't have any important MetaKnights in my area (Or I don't know of them). There are some Good MetaKnight's, but not M2K good. I guess if you want impressions, you need to talk to Shadow, and the ones he listed. Pride is probably the best Yoshi in North America, and they all played him.

I would agree with Even at the past, but Yoshi now has more Grab Release options, and has more unavoidable kill options on MetaKnight(As low as 48% with correct positioning with Fair Spike, and another one at 80% that requires no positioning with a Rising Nair)

 

[Sinz]

Wow. MK destroys yoshi.

Its not even funny. Just don't get grabbed and you win easy.

I am not even kidding. And it isn't even hard to avoid being grabbed against Yoshi either. He has very few options in shield so just do 4 dairs to a nado and break that shiz.

Here is a vid.

 

[Mmac]

He has very few options in shield so just do 4 dairs to a nado and break that shiz.

Since this is probably your only serious point (If you are), I'll just counter this. Good Yoshi's don't shield much. They can, but Pivot Grabs/Spotdodging is their primary defence. Plus how are you suppose to get in with a Dair, when Usmash beats it?

Here is a vid.

Dang, I thought it said "Barrel Roll" at first

 

[Sinz]

You haven't played any very good MKs if they can't get in with a dair. It is one of the easiest moves to get in. This one move gives MK the advantage.

You know if you spot dodge, tornado comes in and you have get tossed. And pivot grabs don't work vs Dair.

Yeah Usmash beats it. But, hey, MK beats Yoshi.

 

[Mmac]

You haven't played any very good MKs if they can't get in with a dair. It is one of the easiest moves to get in.

Yeah Usmash beats it. But, hey, MK beats Yoshi.

I don't even think I have to comment. I'll also just add in Uair beats it also, and I'll be on my way.

ou know if you spot dodge, tornado comes in and you have get tossed.

Why would you Spotdodge a Tornado? >_>

 

[Sinz]

MK cancels his moves fast enough that yoshi's spotdodge gives him time to nado.

 

[Mmac]

MK cancels his moves fast enough that yoshi's spotdodge gives him time to nado.

Exactly what position are we talking about here? First of all, Yoshi is going to maintain a defencive position where he's going to Pivot Grab, or Usmash depending on your approach. If you get in, Then you'll probably get a Tornado attack in (But if he suspects that, then he can telegraph with a Fsmash). But you never posted anyway on how you are going to get in, except attack from high above when for some reason you know it isn't going to work

You don't seem to know much about this matchup at all. I have little reason to suspect you have faced any good, or even decent Yoshi's at all, and shouldn't be in this debate.

 

[DMG]

Exactly what position are we talking about here? First of all, Yoshi is going to maintain a defencive position where he's going to Pivot Grab, or Usmash depending on your approach. If you get in, Then you'll probably get a Tornado attack in (But if he suspects that, then he can telegraph with a Fsmash). But you never posted anyway on how you are going to get in, except attack from high above when for some reason you know it isn't going to work

You don't seem to know much about this matchup at all. I have little reason to suspect you have faced any good, or even decent Yoshi's at all, and shouldn't be in this debate.

I honestly think MK has the advantage on Yoshi, Sinz isn't just making all of this up when he says you can beat Yoshi.

Yoshi's Usmash is not a good enough protector move from MK approaching by air. Pivot grabs only get you so far as well. I think that if MK approaches with something like a rising Dair, there's not much you can do to counter that. OOS Options? Yoshi doesn't have anything good. Spotdodge? Mk can just attack you when the dodge is over. Usmash? MK will probably hit you anyways.

Hasn't the grab release to Spike been proven to not work properly? I remember reading somewhere that MK has enough time to Shuttle Loop or airdodge before the spike hits. If that is true, then that makes part of Yoshi's argument void.

 

[Mmac]

I honestly think MK has the advantage on Yoshi, Sinz isn't just making all of this up when he says you can beat Yoshi.

Well he's sure as hell not trying that hard >_>

Yoshi's Usmash is not a good enough protector move from MK approaching by air.

It has invincibility frames... Isn't that alone not make it a good protection move?

Pivot grabs only get you so far as well. I think that if MK approaches with something like a rising Dair, there's not much you can do to counter that.

Well... It's rising... so he has to be pretty close to do it. Won't that make him in range of the Pivot Grab anyways?

OOS Options? Yoshi doesn't have anything good. Spotdodge? Mk can just attack you when the dodge is over.

Yes, his Shielding options is kinda lame, but he'll rarely have to in this matchup.

Usmash? MK will probably hit you anyways.

Invincibility Frames! How can you hit him if you can't hit him?

Hasn't the grab release to Spike been proven to not work properly? I remember reading somewhere that MK has enough time to Shuttle Loop or airdodge before the spike hits. If that is true, then that makes part of Yoshi's argument void.

It does work. MetaKnight doesn't have enough time to do anything if Yoshi times it right

 

[DMG]

How long do the invincibility frames last/which frames give you protection, and why can't MK bait an Usmash and Airdodge? It's not impossible for that scenario to occur, especially considering Yoshi doesn't want MK to hit him. Yoshi doesn't have a reliable, foolproof answer to fall back on for every approach a MK can take.

He can do a rising Dair after jumping from somewhere else instead of just in front of Yoshi's face. Just because Yoshi has some answers to MK's approaches doesn't mean he can use them reliably every time and expect for them to work. You can't see a MK dash at you and automatically catch him in a pivot grab, there are other things to consider. You can't see a MK approach from the air and automatically beat him out with Usmash or something, there's other options he can take and it boils down to a guessing game.

And MK is a better character here when push comes to shove (ESPECIALLY if you have to resort to a RPS ordeal), even with Grab release issues that help Yoshi.

 

[Browny]

Invincibility Frames! How can you hit him if you can't hit him?

This IS metaknight youre talking about here. He is not constrained to physical laws like every other character

 

[Mmac]

How long do the invincibility frames last/which frames give you protection, and why can't MK bait an Usmash and Airdodge? It's not impossible for that scenario to occur, especially considering Yoshi doesn't want MK to hit him. Yoshi doesn't have a reliable, foolproof answer to fall back on for every approach a MK can take.

The last throughout the entire attack, but it only protects the head. You could, but remember. Too early, and Yoshi can see it and Punish. Too late, and you'll just get hit when you get on the ground. I never claimed that Yoshi defence is foolproof or invincible, but only 2 Legit options (Which even those have it's flaws) out of about Two Dozen scenarios provided into this thread I think proves how reliable it is.

He can do a rising Dair after jumping from somewhere else instead of just in front of Yoshi's face. Just because Yoshi has some answers to MK's approaches doesn't mean he can use them reliably every time and expect for them to work.

Well.. there's only 3 Places where I think a Rising Dair can happen. By flying slowly towards him (Which is countered by Usmash), or directly above him (Also countered by Usmash).

You can't see a MK dash at you and automatically catch him in a pivot grab, there are other things to consider. You can't see a MK approach from the air and automatically beat him out with Usmash or something, there's other options he can take and it boils down to a guessing game.

Like? What else should I consider what I haven't already explained? His Air Game is beaten. His Ground Game is beaten. Tornado is beaten. The only thing he can really do is bluff Yoshi out. Even if he does get in, He can only get in one Dsmash/Tornado/Throw before Yoshi can escape. After that, Yoshi can easily get away most of the time, and just set up another defencive quickly.

Yoshi isn't just limited to that. Yoshi can camp on the ledge also and throw eggs to rack up damage from there. He can even go aggressive himself, Forcing MetaKnight to go aggressive himself, then Yoshi can quickly go back into the Defencive, where MetaKnight is now more likely to straight out attack him.

And MK is a better character here when push comes to shove (ESPECIALLY if you have to resort to a RPS ordeal), even with Grab release issues that help Yoshi.

Whats an RPS?

Anyways, I know about MetaKnight, and I know he isn't some immortal god. He Bleeds like the rest

 

[TKD]

You haven't played any very good MKs if they can't get in with a dair. It is one of the easiest moves to get in. This one move gives MK the advantage.

You know if you spot dodge, tornado comes in and you have get tossed. And pivot grabs don't work vs Dair.

Yeah Usmash beats it. But, hey, MK beats Yoshi.

You're way too persistant. MK doesn't beat Yoshi in Final Destination or Smashville. He wins in every other stage. That's it.

Yoshi has no limitations in his spacing, and can counter almost every one of MK's movement and hitbox mechanics. Down air is an advantage though. People who argue about Yoshi's upsmash priority, are forgetting that Yoshi needs his upsmash fresh to land KO's at 115%, so it's not a real advantage.

Yoshi's pivot grab outprioritizes...EVERYTHING. Everything MK has! He only has advantage by rushing through egg tosses on some approaches, by staying airborne via multiple jumps and by applying some pressure after successful hits. Oh, and Yoshi can FULLY shield the tornado, since he doesn't leave any vulnerable frames around his shield.

I call it a 50/50 on FD and Smashville and a 60/40 adv. Metaknight for other stages. It may be 60/40 adv Yoshi on FD/SV though, but I'd need to test it to see if it's true. Too bad I don't know any Yoshi players.

Just because Yoshi has some answers to MK's approaches doesn't mean he can use them reliably every time and expect for them to work.

Ummm...uh-huh...have you heard of spamming? Of course you have, it's what MK does with his down air and mach tornado. You can just spam pivot grabs and egg tosses as Yoshi. It's bound to work.