Yoshi Matchups & Best Stage Picks

[Purpletuce]

One thing should be noted, all of my claims are based off of videos. Vman, you haven't uploaded a whole bunch lately, although still much more than me (I've yet to be recorded :\ ) and that is all I have to go by. All I was saying is that from what I've seen, parrying seems way too limited to be a gamebreaking technique. Also add in if your opponent uses mixups, you're almost certainly going to mess it up. Once Yoshi parries, he has to be put in a worse position if he misses, even if it is just a WD our of parry, you're vulnerable for twice as long as you're parrying, assuming you parry perfectly. So, I think parrying is theoretically amazing, but much more limited in practical use.

I think the biggest use of parrying is that is gives Yoshi something defensive, in his -relatively- bad defensive game. Although I think something like shield dropping has more to bring to the table, and should be a higher priority to become proficient at, although I don't think it should be a reason to not try parrying. Parrying is still an amazing technique.

I also think that parrying by buffering to the side then moving down to a 45 deg angle is only going to pay out if you're in habit of always buffering it. I like the slowly moving down method, as you can do it at any time. I think one measure of consistency is being able to do it in a match with enough precision that you can platform cancel an up air out of it. (This requires you to be certain within 1 or 2 frames of when you'll shield drop) Also, shield drop -> platform cancel U-air is pretty slick looking.

 

[Kimimaru]

Speaking of Shield Dropping, what are the different methods and how do you do them? The only one I know is tilting the Control Stick down slowly. I can get about 75% consistency with that when I'm not up against an opponent, but when I am it turns into about 40%.

I also think it's a technique every Yoshi player should learn because it's extra good for him.

 

[Purpletuce]

That is what I use, but there is also an option of buffering an input right or left before you go into shield, then rotating down to a 45 deg angle on the control stick. The latter is easier in terms of timing, but you have to set it up. I know Vman does the latter, and I'm pretty sure Leffen does as well, (he posted it before and that is what he said he used to do, idk if he's changed.) There was also a fun thing where Hai I'm Fearless and Pi thought they were the only ones that knew the technique,

Way 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ
Way 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc&feature=related (not sure if this is the video that was posted on teh Yoshi boards a long time ago, but it is this method, and I don't want to find it again, so this is probably it.)

 

[Kimimaru]

So Yoshi boards...what's new?

 

[Purpletuce]

Friday night I was at the usual weekly fest I go to, and a guy came that apparently used to go last year. Since this is my first year of smash, we hadn't met before, and when he came in, I had just missed a grab and got punished with a F-smash, the Falco who beat me said that my grab sucks, joking around, and the new guy started talking about how no OoS also sucks, and thought Yoshi was a troll character. Then when I played him, I 3 stocked his G&W. So happy. . . I got a 0-death on him using a ledgecancel-Dair -> U-air, and in different matches got some shield drop -> platform cancel U-airs. Still have a massive failure rate XD

So . . . Yoshi is still fun, I can do cool things but don't have consistency with him yet.

 

[Kimimaru]

At this point I really think that Yoshi should be above DK on the tier list. I think if we push him further he can maybe be above the Links. I think at his maximum potential he can be above Luigi, but we have yet to see a Yoshi player get in the top 8 at a national/international (not that it's required, but it certainly helps).

The reasoning is Yoshi has a way around things that those characters don't (Ex: Falco's lasers mess DK up really badly and he has a hard time avoiding them). Add in his DJ superarmor, parrying, eggs, and a few nice gimping tools and you have a pretty balanced character.

 

[Purpletuce]

DK>Links. Also, you can't omit all of Yoshis limitations, and the tools those other characters have.

Also, does anyone else dislike Yoshi in P:M? Maybe I'm just not accustomed to him yet, but he doesn't seem as fun, even though he has obvious improvements. I think they removed parrying outright, I can't figure it out, anybody know?

 

[Kimimaru]

Well yeah, Yoshi definitely has his limitations. I just think his strengths are overall more solid than say DK's and he doesn't really get hardcountered by anything but arguably Sheik's chain grabbing (which all get either chain grabbed or tech chased with anyway).

 

[Purpletuce]

I think Peach and Sheik are hard counters, and to a lesser extent I.C.s and Falco. . . Also, I think DK sucks against Yoshi, because my Yoshi > #2 and #4 in my state's DK secondaries, even though #2 and #4 in my state > me. So if your opinion of DK is based on the Yoshi MU, it might be skewed.

 

[Kimimaru]

I wouldn't say Falco is a counter at all. He combos everyone, so his combos on Yoshi are nothing special. I don't know much about the ICs matchup but I do know that Yoshi's D-tilt and Egg Lay are great at separating them.

 

[Purpletuce]

Maybe I'm just experiencing a learning curve against Falco, that the top Yoshis passed (Leffen Vman) and the other Yoshis have also passed or are not at yet, but I have problems with Falco. Maybe I'm not having problems with Falco, but am just biting off more than I can chew with the Falcos I'm playing being better than I am. Either way, I have problems with the Falco MU.

One thing that might be happening, is when people say they have problems with a MU, they think they're admitting a weakness, which would probably be hard for some of the Yoshis to do. I feel like there is a great pissing contest going on, because nobody can definitively say who is the best Yoshi, everyone feels a need to upsell themselves. Oh well.

 

[Kimimaru]

Of course certain MUs will be different for other players, but I'm talking in a general sense (which isn't too big given the few Yoshi players there are).

 

[Nogzor'z]

Maybe I'm just experiencing a learning curve against Falco, that the top Yoshis passed (Leffen Vman) and the other Yoshis have also passed or are not at yet, but I have problems with Falco. Maybe I'm not having problems with Falco, but am just biting off more than I can chew with the Falcos I'm playing being better than I am. Either way, I have problems with the Falco MU.

One thing that might be happening, is when people say they have problems with a MU, they think they're admitting a weakness, which would probably be hard for some of the Yoshis to do. I feel like there is a great pissing contest going on, because nobody can definitively say who is the best Yoshi, everyone feels a need to upsell themselves. Oh well.

I like peeing...

I feel as though there should be a large amount of advice and summation on the falco v yoshi MU hidden somewhere in the yoshi forum. That and videos of Yoshi v falco seems to be pretty accessible in the yoshi analysis channel's OP.

Personally, The falco matchup requires me to be the most creative. Utilize DJC's, waveland's, eggs, parrying, and other such methods/gimmicks/whatever to get that important first hit/momentum. This comes of course after the general MU is understood by both players.

 

[Purpletuce]

When I complain about the Falco MU it is usually me referring to a good Falco who doesn't go to tourneys, and a Falco ranked #4 in my state (but my state is bad compared to everyone else's, he isn't like your # 4 in state ) that I play weekly. They are pretty familiar with the MU, and it just seems like Yoshi doesn't have a chance, really. Especially compared to me playing as characters that I don't even use properly, like Sheik or Marth.

Also, I've read a good amount of the boards and seen many a video, but I just can't seem to beat those guys. Especially the one ranked #4, he destroys me, usually it is a game if I can get him on his last stock or not. The other one I go about even with.

 

[Kimimaru]

It just takes more experience with the MU. If he always beats you regardless of the character you choose then he's probably straight up outplaying you. Yoshi's definitely at a disadvantage in the MU, but it's not any worse than what I put in the OP.

Are you using F-tilt at all in those matches? I honestly think it's one of Yoshi's most underrated moves.

 

[Purpletuce]

I use it when an obvious ShFFL is coming, unless I think he is going in with a laser, and I try to parry it, or run away for a parry if he is too close. Both scenarios are on a linear approach, and I never use F-tilt if they were on platforms, (D-air is scary ) I also like the occasional F-smash to mess with his spacing but that messes up often.

The ranked one is definitely outplaying me, but my Yoshi beats all of his secondaries (Fox(really close), DK and Ness) and he beats my Yoshi pretty bad with his Falco. I tend to be better off against him with my Puff, who also beats all his secondaries and loses to his Falco, but less often.

The other Falco never plays anyone but Falco, and our matches are always really close, but if I go Puff/Sheik (started her last week) my odds are a lot better, and I've 3 stocked him on several occasions. I know that if I can beat him badly with characters I don't even practice with (evenish MUs) I should be able to beat him with my main, but no such case.

Note: They both know the MU pretty well, they know that my D-tilt can kill them if they've lost their jump(they both tech over 75% of the time), they know Shine kills Yoshis DJ at 0%, they know I can parry lasers, and will abuse my shield, but always expect me to shield drop, etc.

I do much better against Falcos that don't know the MU, but I think I shouldn't count wins because the opponent is unfamiliar with the MU, those feel like cheap wins.

 

[Kimimaru]

I disagree with your last sentence. It's each player's responsibility to be prepared for MUs in a tournament, so if someone doesn't know the Yoshi MU it's that person's lack of preparation. Abuse the fact that they don't know the MU because many high tier mains underestimate low tiers and don't think that they can do anything notable to them, which isn't true.

You stated earlier that you need to work on your consistency with Yoshi. I think this is the reason you don't do as well with him because Yoshi is one of the, if not the, hardest characters in the game to play well. With that said, I'd advise warming up before matches or just practicing tech skill (wavelands/platform dancing, ECEs, Shield Dropping, etc.) by yourself until you think you can comfortably apply them consistently in matches.

 

[Purpletuce]

Since I haven't made it to a tourney lately, all ive done is warm up. When I do go to tourney, I show up early to warm up.

I don't like the idea of winning a match due to my opponent outplying me but not knowing the mu.

 

[Mind Trick]

Yoshi is in P:M? When did this happen?
It took a lot to accustom to the new DJC mechanics for me (still not that big of a fan of it) but I need to try me some Yoshi then

What are you having problems with in the Falco MU Purple?

 

[Kimimaru]

I don't like the idea of winning a match due to my opponent outplying me but not knowing the mu.

Well if they outplay you and don't know the MU you'll still lose because you got outplayed .

 

[Purpletuce]

When I say they don't know the MU I mean something like them doing better than me, chosing the right options, getting the right reads, etc, but losing stocks because they don't know my D-tilt gimps them, or missing chances for a kill because they don't know my DJ is broken by shines.

Against Falco I have a hard time getting out of combos and winning in the neutral game. I always have trouble hitting them before they hit me, and once they land anything, they can generally get quite a bit out of almost anything. One thing that has been helping is watching how other Yoshis handle the neutral game. I have a notepad with a few pages of little things from videos I've watched, and I've sorted them out by player.

After posting this I decided to look at more matches, in particular some of yours, Mind Trick, and I thought it might be nice for me to tell you that the reason I first picked up Yoshi was because of Jurassic Parkour. I used to play Marth and Falco, thanks a lot for making everything harder! Just kidding

 

[KirbyKaze]

What's Link Yoshi like? Genuinely curious. I'd think it's close because Link has good range and grab combos but Yoshi's faster and has good pressure on Link's crap shield grab. Both have lame projectiles.

Link's sword seems daunting if he catches Yoshi without a jump but every character has something gay on jumpless Yoshi. Yoshi's egg seems good vs hookshot recoveries.

So yeah. Just curious.

 

[Nogzor'z]

taking notes can definitely be a great way to implement things that you would otherwise forget.

Getting "out" of combos requires proper DI and timing of your DJ. My attempts to escaping falco's combos comes with getting a good feel for how much hitstun you actually endure and, if need be, DJing just as falco commits to an aerial.
^ this may or may not be obvious but it happens some much that it needs to be emphasized.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I do my shield stuff manually (no buffering)

I feel this helped me get "a feel" for shield timings and stun times

I wouldn't trade this comfort for anything in the world

Just general thing

 

[Nogzor'z]

^ sounds about right.

I've played the Link MU a decent amount and his sword can definitely be "daunting"
Yoshi really doesn't have much attacks to outright challenge the sword's range (f-smash, D-tilt, egglay are nice here), so I find myself working with speed and DJCC's to get in.
I found being grabbed at mid percents somewhat beneficial as some link's will try to combo from D-throw and just get DJCC's in the face.
Eggs tend to interrupt grapple recoveries, or recoveries that have a high arc, pretty well (think samus and falcon). If anything, yoshi could definitely build quite a bit of damage by just egging recoveries over and over again.
Link's projectiles are also really fun to parry/reflect/catch and generally mess around with.

Poor yoshi seems to be combo food for everyone when he's jumpless.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah I figured the favourability of Yoshi hinges on his ability to play around the sword's range advantage, Link's general priority advantage, and avoid juggles.

I feel you can approach this one similar to Marth at some points. But Link's vertical KO power is a threat whereas Marth's isn't and unlike Marth, Link *can* sit back and toss things if he's being visibly camped and he has more sex kicks & powerful moves in general so he breaks the armor earlier. Link doesn't get jerked around as much in some ways. Then again his movement is trash and Yoshi's isn't, which is a big deal between low tiers.

Not sure how good Yoshi's DJC uair chain is vs Link but I'd guess similar to how it works vs Sheik (35% being easy to get and probably finish with aerial of choice with good execution)

Not sure where he'd get his first hits vs Link though. Movement advantage aside, I feel Link's sword & sex kicks are good vs Yoshi's numerous pull backs because crashing a face into a sword is usually is bad for the face. He can also initiate with a projectile, which is good vs Yoshi's stationary defense. And Link's grab makes shield play dangerous since he has real follows off it (and good ones too). I guess Yoshi can play heavily off plats, but Link has a great uair when people are above him. Then again, shield drop probably can mitigate that to some degree since Yoshi's is really good.

FTR I don't think it's bad. I'm just trying to see how Yoshi puts all his tools together to make a cohesive game vs him. Learning exercise.

 

[Nogzor'z]

I've had an encounter with a defensive link before. THAT was a learning experience for sure. Getting first hits in required patience and fancy wavedashing (it was FD that I did it on so no platforms). An interesting "technique", if you want to call it that, that helped to apply quick pressure against some characters is to full wavedash forward and do some jab-play (now that I think about it, wobbles seems to do this a bit).

Yeah shield drops help immensely when being attacked on platforms.

Link's shield game is where I've started to implement parrying OoS options. Crossing over or not, A parry can effectively cover attempted shield grabs or Up-B's, (maybe D-air's OoS?). Still gotta be wary during shield play though.

 

[Purpletuce]

Ooh, Yoshi Link is something I know about, because I got to play quite a bit against a guy named Jackie Tran (Jetfour) from AZ when he was (still is?) picking up Link.

Yoshi v Link is totally in Yoshis favor IMO.
One big thing is that since Yoshis shield never suffers from stun, Yoshi can just release his shield once he gets hit, and Yoshi can get particularly gnarly things off of Link's D-air and UpB (F-airs, F-smashes, D-airs), as well as other things from less laggy moves like D-smash, he can just run off to get positioning, so in the MU Yoshi's shield isn't much of a problem.

Link has more projectiles, but I think Eggs are just fine, as they do more damage and IMO have more versatile angles(and Yoshi can move around Link's projectiles better than Link can move around eggs). When far away, Link can only use his bomb and boomerang, which wouldn't get him much, so unless he was going for chip damage, he would have to approach. Add in some ledge shenanigans and Yoshi has the projectile game down enough to either win it or force the Link into melee range.

When it comes to combos, both of them can combo the other decently, but I think Yoshi has a little more tools. Yoshi has his F-air -> pretty much anything, and nasty DJC stuff. Link seemed to mainly get 1-2 punches and hits off of good positioning.

On edgeguards, Yoshi can use his DJ to edgehog if the link is going for a sweetspot (pretty obvious) forcing Link to either use his tether or go high. Eggs can mess with the tether, and if Link goes high he is at risk of being chased down.

The neutral game (when too close for projectiles) seems pretty even, and Yoshi and Links tools in the neutral game are pretty straightforward. I like the F-smash (especially after WD back fakeouts) and D-tilts. Yoshi can also simply run away and try to out position Link with his speed, but Link does have his range to make that hard.

Link also has some things going for him in the MU, but nothing too bad from what I remember.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My qualm with citing fair's combo potential as a really big point is that fair has startup and it requires you be in the air for a good chunk of time vs a character with a huge sword and various projectiles

Not really ideal and seems easy to disrupt

I also think you underestimate how cohesive soft uair, hard uair, and u-tilt are as a juggling suite and he has more than that too - projectiles, bair, and variants of nairs can be used to extend combos effectively too

I think Link breaks the DJ armor effectively enough to boast decent edgeguarding and he also is good at KOing off the top so he doesn't need edgeguarding to the same degree Yoshi does

That said, I think Yoshi's edgeguard is really solid on Link anyway

My worry with "fake him out with speed" is that Yoshi's speed is mostly defensively geared and that gives Link time to get his projectiles set up the way he likes them

But Yoshi is a pain when he's on Link so maybe I'm just underestimating his approach & movement tools

I think it's about even but I could see either character winning

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, it also has a 17 frame startup, which isn't too nice, but you can land it, and it is usually worth it. I don't really approach with it. You can also be clever with it, like jump away DJ to quickly change momentum then F-air (I think I saw this from vman), or do it as a techchase, or punish for a whiff/shielded attack.

Edit in response to KK's edit:
Yeah, maybe the Link I played didn't implement their juggles enough, but it never seemed to be a huge problem. Link definitely has good options on edgeguarding Yoshi, but Yoshi usually doesn't need to use the maximum of his recovery (in which case he is almost certainly dead since he is so predictable) but what I do(against most characters) is I wait until I've fallen enough that the tip of my jump will put my outside my enemies range, and then fall into the stage, with options of going for a down-B ledgegrab, fastfalling in, going in or out at varying degrees then using my airdodge to mess with him further. Link is pretty slow, and has to cover quite a large amount of ground for most of his edgeguards.

I think part of the neutral game is that Yoshi can both go defensive or offensive with his maneuverability, especially with platforms. Yoshi can really use WD back fakeouts, WD in aproaches, dashdances, platform wavelands, ECE and waveland onto the stage to intimidate the Link, and open things up a little.



One big thing that I just now thought of . . . when I say Yoshi wins, it is because I think I do better against players playing Link than I usually do, so I think the matchup is in Yoshis favor, but my opinion of how good those players are is probably skewed by the fact they usually have good MUs (Jetfour plays CF) against Yoshi, so I think the MU is in Yoshis favor relative to the odds I usually face, so it may be even. I hope the above things aren't taken to be the theories as to why Yoshi wins, but just the things I've done and I've felt gave me an advantage in the MU, so it may just be those things tie up the MU.

I'm not sure if I'm rambling or not. . . I'm sleepy.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Definitely can and will be interrupted by even simple jabs. Fairing would need prefect spacing (which can be accomplished).

Another note on links shield is that, at least for me, going for shield pokes with bair's and hovering nairs seems to work pretty well. This, of course could be countered by lightshielding/angling shields, but whatever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Purple

More defense...

I guess it makes sense. I feel like a lot of this is "Link overextends here, Yoshi gets **** level punish" but I'm not sure he really has to commit the way you're suggesting as often as you infer you think he does just because of how his character is built. I feel he should be trying to make Yoshi come to him or at least boxing him in before going for something like that (to protect himself from fair).

Obviously he will be faired sometimes but I don't think it's a huge deal. Yoshi will be grabbed and Link's grab combos are great vs him. D-throw > u-tilt > uair is really good damage and gives him great position after.

 

[Nogzor'z]

I feel he should be trying to make Yoshi come to him or at least boxing him in before going for something like that

That's sounds about right. Figuring out how to get past link's defenses is part of the fun of playing against link.
I'm curious about link's frame data after the D-throw. Can Yoshi initiate his DJ before being hit by say a U-tilt? If so then at what percentages? I say this because I feel as though I have done it before (then again we players are exactly frame perfect are we?)

Also, after looking at link's Nair hitboxes and duration, I fully understand why it's so annoying to deal with...Oh well, at least its more hitbox to parry/DJCC, right?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Link's d-throw is weight based so those options go online at mid percent IIRC

Like 30%+

 

[Purpletuce]

Note: I edited my earlier post.

I don't know about for shield pokes, but I saw that B-air worked pretty well, and I never thought of Link's combos out of grab to be too devastating, it usually seemed like I could just DI after a hit or two and everything was back to neutral. Also, one thing that came up often is Link couldn't really do anything if he was above Yoshi, because U-air beat every move but D-air, and committing to D-air is very punishable.

Answering question (partially) D-throw 1st actionable frame -released = 19 frames on Yoshi (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469)
Link's U-tilt : comes out of frame 9 (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306010)
So it is a combo if hitstun = 10? I'm still newish to framedata, so help me out
Also, I found that hitstun = launch speed/1.475, and it doesn't change by weight, only %. So, if launch speed = 14.75 or higher, than it should work? So I just went to gamecube, and tried D-throwing Yoshi with Link, and it read that at 0% Links's "fastest pitch" was 150 something in English, 48 and japaneese, So I'm doing somthing wrong. oh well. Sleepytime.

 

[Nogzor'z]

^ heh I just went looking for that thread too.

Nah man... Link's combo's/ juggles with U-tilt > U-air is both devastating and annoying to get out of/avoid.

hmm, I wish I had someone else around to test/play. I really want to believe that yoshi can initiate his DJ, even 1 frame before U-tilt/up-B hits, well past the mid-percentages. Maybe if I believe hard enough...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'll fiddle with it when I have access to a gamecube. I'm just eyeballing 30%. I'm confident it works at some point though.

On a side note... Angel, I really like your Yoshi. It looks like a normal character ft. Yoshi's gimmicks and tricks. Looks fundamentally solid, which is rare for a bizarre low tier. It's really refreshing to see and is reminiscent of ChuDat's ICs. I like how you seem to emphasize just simplistic spacing & positioning advantage and seem so minimalist with your movements. I think you could spazz out with cool wavelands and platform play but your focus is so practical and streamlined and I love it.

Not sure that's the right path for an inherently gimmicky, bizarre character but it's really sick to watch; someday I'd really like to play you with my two characters to see how Yoshi functions more indepth and as a cohesive unit (rather than as such a specialized character, which is how I felt fighting Vman). I feel you'd be really fun to play.

And FWIW I rarely compliment low tier players (so this is a rarity for me) but yeah yours strikes me as really cool. I really like it. Hope you go far with it.

 

[Nogzor'z]

I'll fiddle with it when I have access to a gamecube. I'm just eyeballing 30%. I'm confident it works at some point though.

On a side note... Angel, I really like your Yoshi. It looks like a normal character ft. Yoshi's gimmicks and tricks. Looks fundamentally solid, which is rare for a bizarre low tier. It's really refreshing to see and is reminiscent of ChuDat's ICs. I like how you seem to emphasize just simplistic spacing & positioning advantage and seem so minimalist with your movements. I think you could spazz out with cool wavelands and platform play but your focus is so practical and streamlined and I love it.

Not sure that's the right path for an inherently gimmicky, bizarre character but it's really sick to watch; someday I'd really like to play you with my two characters to see how Yoshi functions more indepth and as a cohesive unit (rather than as such a specialized character, which is how I felt fighting Vman). I feel you'd be really fun to play.

And FWIW I rarely compliment low tier players (so this is a rarity for me) but yeah yours strikes me as really cool. I really like it. Hope you go far with it.

Heh thanks a bundle, the compliment is much appreciated.
I try to do good things with yoshi every now and then

Being able play you would be amazing, though the chances seem slim (i don't really get to travel much OoS), although APEX is still up in the air for me (sort of).
Summer '13 seems promising for my future attendance in upcoming tourneys/travels

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hope you make it. Would be nice to see another Yoshi make their bid for bracket. Vman can do it. But I wanna know if the other hyped AZ Yoshi can.

 

[Kimimaru]

Hmm, Link vs. Yoshi...

I'm surprised no one mentioned Yoshi's D-tilt. It's a great tool for cornering Link, which prevents him from throwing out projectiles. Link can juggle Yoshi very well with U-tilts and U-airs as well as get a Spin Attack off of a D-throw at certain percentages. I'm not sure if that'll work if the Yoshi DIs properly, but I'm sure Link can follow up on D-throw with other moves.

Both have good projectiles. Yoshi's eggs are great at edgeguarding Link and racking up damage, and Link's projectiles are good at controlling space. I feel that Yoshi wins this MU but both players have to use their characters' projectiles well.