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Yoshi Matchups & Best Stage Picks

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
The other topics are fairly outdated and I'd like to discuss stages and matchups most relevant to our current metagame. So with that said, what would you say are the best neutral and counterpick stages for Yoshi, and what would you say are his best and worst matchups?

My matchup list (with the rest of the reasons coming later):

Note: The number on the left is Yoshi's and the number on the right is the opponent.

Fox: 35/65

Fox is one of the fastest characters in the game and has incredible mobility. His shine combos are pretty easy to pull off on Yoshi because of Yoshi's giant nose, and he can kill Yoshi at ~84% with his U-air and (NTSC) U-smash on small-medium stages. Luckily, Yoshi is immune to getting shine spiked when recovering thanks to the super armor given to him from his double jump. In this matchup you're going to want to focus on getting a knockdown on Fox and some U-air chains to rack up a lot of damage. If he misses a tech you should always jab reset and follow up with DJC U-airs, U-tilt, or F-tilt at low percents and D-smash at higher percents. Another option for low percents is the Running Grab - > D-throw -> DJC N-air -> regrab -> D-throw combo, which will net him at least 30%. You can also combo Fox with B-air -> N-air at higher percents. On stages with platforms, you're going to want to platform dance and waveland on platforms to boost your mobility and try to land a F-air: two of those will knock down Fox from 0%, which will lead into combos and other good stuff. Do not constantly chase Fox in this matchup! He has greater overall mobility than you and will be able to bait your attacks easily. Analyze his movement patters and predict where he's going to go next. If you're at high percents expect him to try a shine -> U-smash or U-air, so keep your distance and play it smart. Use your eggs to help maintain stage control. On smaller stages he won't be able to escape them at all because you can angle them in so many directions it's ridiculous. They also deal ~10-12% so ECEs will force him to approach you so you can bait an attack.

If you're recovering and you DIed up, you can automatically get him offstage by using Egg Lay, provided he doesn't have edge invincibility yet or its duration is over. This, regardless of how fast the Fox breaks out, will put him in an unfavorable position and allow you to make it back on stage safely. You can also do a rising Egg Toss and immediately grab the ledge, but if he's edge hogging then this might not work well. If you're at ~60-80% he will try to hit you out of your super armor with B-air, but if you're above the stage already chances are you'll be able to counterattack immediately.

When edgeguarding, RECEs are your best friend but are hard to perform consistently, so if you have trouble with those then just throw eggs right beside the edge and act accordingly. If he's going for an illusion sweetspot always do an instant DJ edgehog. If he's recovering high then follow up with N-air or another killing move. If he's recovering low try to edgehog him before his Firefox reaches you (it'll break your super armor) or use D-tilt or D-smash.

The best stages for this matchup are Dreamland and Battlefield, in my opinion. Yoshi has the best platform mobility in the game and needs platforms to abuse this strength. The platforms also give you more options if you're recovering high. Final Destination is pretty good for U-air chaining but it's incredibly easy for Fox to play campy there, so I'd recommend not choosing it. Pokemon Stadium is a great Yoshi stage, but the low ceiling allows Fox to get some very early kills so I'd avoid that as well. Yoshi's Story is a good pick because it's small and limits Fox's movement, and you can get some incredibly early kills on him there with D-smash.

Falco: 30/70

In this matchup you'll always want to avoid recovering low. Falco's D-air gets rid of Yoshi's super armor at around 60% and his shine will always get rid of it no matter what percent Yoshi is at. Fortunately, Falco doesn't really benefit much from grabbing Yoshi, and most of the combos that work on Fox also work on Falco; this means U-air chains, U-tilt, F-air, and jab resets are your best friends. What makes this matchup worse for Yoshi than Fox is Falco's lasers and shine combos. If you get hit by D-air -> shine expect to receive a good 60-70% from it. Do not miss teching any of Falco's D-airs at higher percents! They will almost always lead into a spike off-stage, so if you're not too great at teching I recommend practicing. The lasers are a pain, but your best option here is to parry them since parrying is a nice, lagless way to nullify lasers. You can even give Falco a bit of his own medicine by tossing eggs at him while he's lasering. In this case, if he reacted poorly he'll get hit by the egg, and if not he'll shield it. This is a win/win situation because no matter what he does you briefly halted his barrage of lasers. It also helps that ~5 lasers = 1 egg in damage percentage, so if you're both trading projectile hits with each other you'll end up winning. Yoshi also has the luxury of the super armor from his double jump, so in most cases Falco's lasers won't mess up your approach as long as you're in your double jump animation.

The most essential part of this matchup is to zone Falco. Unlike Fox, Falco's ground mobility isn't very good so he needs to rely on lasers to close the gap safely. Push Falco towards the edge and restrict his options. If you're really close to him double jab him off the ledge. If he jumps; U-air him or B-air him and combo that into a kill move, if possible (U-air trades with his D-air). If he double jumps and lasers from the edge you can crouch under the first laser and D-tilt him or use the invincibility on your head from your dash attack to get him back off and set him up for a gimp.

Yoshi's overall best moves in this matchup are D-tilt and D-smash. D-tilt is an automatic knock-down at any percent, restricting Falco's options and putting you in a favorable position. It also makes gimping Falco really easy if he already used his double jump to recover; in this case, you're just an edgehog away from taking out one of his stocks. D-smash will kill Falco at absurdly low percents because he has a relatively short recovery and it hits him in the worst direction possible for recovering: down and to the side.

For stages, I'd put any big stages as top picks. This means Dreamland is Yoshi's best stage for this matchup; just watch the top platform because Falco can get up there with a single full hop. Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium, and Fountain of Dreams are all also solid picks. Watch out for Yoshi's Story though, since Falco can shine you off the top and kill you pretty early. Final Destination is also a good choice if you can deal with lasers effectively.

Sheik: 35/65

I don't have too much experience with this matchup compared to some others, but this is what I got from it.

I actually think this matchup is 40/60 but Sheik's D-throw -> (insert move here) is too good. This is probably Yoshi's second hardest matchup overall. In this matchup, it's vital to not go super aggressive against Sheik or you will get grabbed. Spacing is key here so stay about D-tilt distance away from Sheik because that's where Yoshi truly shines in this matchup, in my opinion. At this position Sheik can't grab you or hit you with anything but needles, and since he can't use needles without getting punished because of the ending lag (unless multiple are stored and you get hit by them) he'll try to back away or jump, giving you the opportunity to approach. Also at this distance you can hit him with D-tilt, which will knock him down, restricting his options. Shield poking with B-air is preferred over DJC N-airs because the risk of getting grabbed is significantly lower. Avoid Sheik's F-tilt, F-air, and B-air. U-smash will beat out all of Sheik's aerials, and double jump retreating Egg Lays are great because they put him above you in the air where your U-air will comfortably beat out all of his options. B-air combos into U-air at mid-high percents and N-air can be used as an all purpose attack. Properly spaced F-airs work well too and can lead to jab resets. DJC U-air chains work well too at low percents but setting them up is considerably harder on Sheik. Sheik will try to bait some sort of attack to get a grab, so position yourself well and use some eggs to force him to approach you or platform dance to bait an attack you can punish well. D-smash and your great CC destroy Sheik and well-spaced F-smashes help you get some solid hits in, so use them when the opportunity arises.

Try your best not to get grabbed. Sheik can't kill out of the chain throw, but it'll still rack up a lot of damage. In my experience, I was able to DI upwards out of it at ~50%. Here's a picture of where you should DI:



It's a bit hard to get the exact angle of DI you need, but every single time I pulled it off successfully the Sheik player was unable to regrab me. If applicable, you can also try and DI onto a platform, but make sure to do a standing tech since it gives Sheik less time to jump on the platform and regrab you.

When edgeguarding, always edgehog so Sheik will be forced to experience the end lag of his recovery. If he has ~90% you can do F-air -> Yoshi Bomb for a kill after he lands on the stage. Other options include waveland -> B-air -> U-air and waveland -> U-tilt -> U-smash.

When recovering, make sure to either go really high or really low; mid-level is where Sheik will be most potent at edgeguarding. Recovering high is the preferred option, though. If you're recovering low, always do a rising Egg Toss because it will clank with Sheik's D-smash and let you grab the ledge. If you're recovering high use your air speed to trick Sheik, do a Yoshi Bomb from high up and grab the edge, or just simply land on the stage if possible. Sheik will actually have a hard time edgeguarding you if you're at ~80-90% because her aerials will barely break your super armor and allow you to react before she's out of end lag, and her needles don't break your super armor at all so the only thing she gains from them is damage.

Marth: 50/50

In this matchup you'll want to avoid Marth's tippered F-smash. If he can't land it on you you'll almost always stay alive for 150+% (at least if you have good DI). Marth also can outrange you with most of his attacks and combo you pretty well with F-airs. Against Yoshi, this is where Marth's strengths end.

Yoshi's biggest strengths in this matchup lie in his incredible gimping and edgeguarding power against Marth. A D-tilt on Marth at the edge will force him to use his recovery, and a CC D-tilt will take off a stock if he tries to sweetspot the ledge. Yoshi also can just jump out and try gimping Marth with D-air when he's trying to recover, and ECEs, RECEs, and simple Egg Tosses off the stage can lead into N-air or other attacks that will knock Marth further off the stage. You can even purposely take a hit from Marth's recovery with your super armor and N-air him back out again if he's not sweetspotting the ledge. Additional options include B-air, D-smash, Dash attack, down-angled F-smash, and backwards U-smash. Simply put, Yoshi has way too many options for edgeguarding Marth and making sure he doesn't get back on the stage it's ridiculous.

The biggest problem you'll encounter is approaching Marth, which is what I think makes this matchup even rather than being in Yoshi's favor (although once the Yoshi metagame evolves further I can see it being in Yoshi's favor). His wavedash and dashdance are great, and combined with his range, make it very hard to get close to him. Fortunately, his grab game against Yoshi is basically non-existant if you can DI his forward throw up, and he doesn't benefit much from any of his other throws. When he's on the ground, try baiting a move and use a retreating Egg Lay. This will get him in the air, where he doesn't want to be against Yoshi. From here you can try some DJC U-airs or a U-smash, depending on his percent. Try your best to keep him in the air, so Egg Tosses, another Egg Lay, F-tilt, U-tilt, and B-air are good options. You can also bait an F-air, eat it with your superarmor or CC, and counter with N-air or D-smash, respectively. You can also use the Dash attack's invincibility to beat out his F-air, and if you know he's going to F-smash you can use Dash attack, which clanks with his F-smash and gives you frame advantage, followed by D-smash. Another option includes F-smash, which has a good pullback and some invincibility on Yoshi's head. Additionally, Marth doesn't really have an answer to Yoshi's U-smash so try and beat out his aerial approaches with it at ~30+% when you can.

Always recover high. Marth won't be able to do anything if you do, and recovering low gives him options like D-air, tippered F-smash, and more.

Good stages against Marth are Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland, and Battlefield. Marth already has a hard time killing Yoshi without a tippered F-smash, so choosing bigger stages will make it even harder. In Pokemon Stadium you can kill him at ~100% with the guaranteed U-tilt -> U-air combo and U-smash (which even outranges his D-air). In any stage D-smash will kill him at around 60% and force him to recover, which, as explained above, will almost guarantee him losing a stock. Avoid Final Destination because it gives Marth plenty of room to dashdance and restricts your approach options due to a lack of platforms. Also completely avoid Yoshi's Story and always ban it if possible; his range combined with the small stage will make it considerably easier for him to kill you.

Jigglypuff: 50/50 (45/55 at worst; 60/40 at best)

I haven't played this matchup much, but I greatly enjoyed it when I did.

Jigglypuff is a character that relies heavily on aerials and her air mobility for approaching. Yoshi is one of the few characters that can fight her in the air, in my opinion. He has the second fastest horizontal air speed in the game (tied with Mewtwo and right under Jigglypuff), and his super armor helps trade with Jigglypuff's aerials. Since Jigglypuff is very lightweight, she'll die earlier than you so trades are in your favor.

Avoid rest at all costs. If you get hit with it at a low percent and you're on the ground you can DI down and double jump once you get off the stage; this will launch you up really high and allow you to recover. U-smash will beat out any of Jigglypuff's aerials and combos like B-air -> U-air will work great on her at ~60%. Well-angled Egg Tosses can also help rack up damage and lead into U-airs at higher percents, and Jigglypuff doesn't really have an answer to perfect or near perfect ECEs; just make sure you don't use them when she's too close. Unexpected Yoshi Bombs might work against her too and kill early. She doesn't have an answer to shield dropping either, so utilize that as much as you can.

For rest punishes, Shield drop->Yoshi Bomb is a pretty good option that kills at around 70%-100%, depending on whether the stage has a high ceiling or a low ceiling. (F-air, F-tilt, U-tilt) -> Yoshi Bomb is another combo that kills at around 55%-70%, depending on the stage you're on, and finally F-air -> (up angle) F-tilt -> Yoshi Bomb, kills at 20%-40% on stages with lower ceilings.

At low percents you can recover just fine against Jigglypuff; just watch where you're going so she doesn't Rest you while she's in a safe position. At higher percents she'll be able to hit you out of your double jump pretty easily. Fortunately, Jigglypuff can't gain or lose height very quickly, so watch where she's going and go in the opposite direction (Ex. If you're high up in the air and Jigglypuff is moving towards you, recover low).

For edgeguarding, Egg Tosses are the best option. They can be used to rack up lots of damage at low percents, and at mid-high percents Egg Toss -> U-air will kill very early. I've also found that trailing under Jigglypuff while she's recovering can work well. The threat of your U-air will force her away from you and keep you under her, which is where you ideally want to be at all times.

Yoshi's Story, Pokemon Stadium, and Final Destination are pretty good stages to choose in this matchup. You'll almost always be under Jigglypuff in Final Destination, so you can abuse U-smash and beat out her aerial approaches. Pokemon Stadium has a low ceiling so U-smash and U-air will kill her even earlier there than it normally does, and Yoshi's Story will also net you early kills. Avoid Dreamland because it'll take you a while to kill Jigglypuff there, and also avoid Fountain of Dreams because it just makes life harder for you since Jigglypuff is always in the air.

Falcon: 40/60

Captain Falcon is a really fast character, and in my opinion the main thing he has over you (and many other characters) is his knee. If you're great at parrying and can parry his knee most of the time, you might as well switch those matchup numbers. However, this discussion will not take parrying into consideration.

Your B-air is probably your best tool here since it leads to N-airs, U-airs, and even some U-smashes. B-air combos Falcon really well and sets him up perfectly for a kill at higher percents. I advise not to spam this attack since the Falcon player will likely catch on quick and work around it, but when you use it aim for his head since he doesn't really have any quick attacks that guard that area. You can also use it to shield pressure safely, as long as you space it well. Basically, B-air is an all-purpose attack in this matchup.

If you manage to get a knock down on Falcon and he tech rolls, you can almost always get a free Egg Lay on him and mess up his positioning even further, as well as racking up some more damage. U-smash is decent at comboing Falcon and is probably your weakest killing move against him unless he's at ~110+% and you're in a stage with a low ceiling. Using CC -> D-smash on his N-air beats out his approach and can net you a kill at higher percents. Grab -> DJC U-air chains also work well.

No matter what you do, avoid his D-air and knee. D-air puts you in the perfect position for him to land a knee and almost always knocks you down, limiting your options. If you do get hit by a knee at low percents, expect to be comboed unless you were in your super armor. Fortunately, Falcon doesn't get much from grabs against Yoshi until ~70%, so just DI them towards a spot that makes kneeing for him difficult (Ex. on top of a platform).

Falcon is a pretty easy character to edgeguard. Egg Tosses, B-airs, N-airs, D-tilts, Dash attacks, and D-smashes work wonders; just make sure to edgehog first. If he's going for a sweetspot you can throw an egg right over the edge and follow up with D-smash or F-smash. You can also jump out and meteor him with D-airs; even if he hits you with his recovery when he's far out, chances are he won't be making it back to the stage.

When recovering, always try to go high. Falcon has fewer options when you recover high, so use that to your advantage. If he's edgehogging you, aim high and use a Yoshi Bomb to grab the ledge if he got off it or if his edge invincibility wore out. You might be able to grab him with Egg Lay if you're high enough, still have your double jump, and he gets off the stage and tries to hit you again. If you succeed in this circumstance he'll be easy to gimp.

I'm actually not too sure about the best stages against Falcon aside from Fountain of Dreams because many of Falcon's best stages are also Yoshi's best stages. I've done pretty well on Pokemon Stadium and Battlefield, and Dreamland kind of works against you because Falcon has so much space to work with.

Peach: 20/80

In my opinion, this is Yoshi's worst matchup. Peach's N-air matches yours in speed and has great knockback. Pretty much all of her other aerials break your super armor early, and she can go really far with her float so recovering will be a pain. Parrying is Yoshi's best tool against Peach because it'll absorb her F-air, which is her main spacing tool, but since most Yoshi players can't parry consistently, I'll put it aside for this analysis.

Be very careful when using your double jump. For this matchup you have to play kinda campy and you can't do normal Yoshi stuff. Keep control and stay in the middle of the stage. If you use your double jump often and in a predictable manner, expect Peach to gimp you with her aerials. Short hop B-airs probably are your best spacing tool in this matchup and can lead to U-airs at mid to high percents. DJC N-air shield pressure works great, but I'd recommend it only if you can pull it off flawlessly. When she approaches with her float, try to counter with a U-smash, which will also beat her other aerials. If she's floating lower then F-smash might work because of the invincibility on your head combined with its pullback and range.

Also watch out for her FC (float cancelled) aerials and D-smash. An FC aerial can and will often lead to D-smash or grab. If you get hit by an aerial or D-smash while shielding you can simply roll away (and even through D-smash with the right timing thanks to your absurdly small hitbox). From my experience, grabs are almost useless in this matchup and they're laggy, so avoid using them, especially after an FC aerial (each FC aerial has only 4 frames of landing lag). Well-spaced Egg Lays can beat out all of her aerials and put her above you, but along with grabs they're also pretty risky and you can't afford risks in this matchup; use them only if you're sure you'll land them.

U-smash is your best killing move in this matchup by far. On larger stages it'll kill her in the early 100s and on smaller stages even earlier, so use it when the opportunity arises. U-air also has a lot of kill power, so try a U-tilt -> U-air combo to take out a stock at high percents. D-smash knocks her low so that's something you can use while she's trying to recover. Yoshi Bomb is great at killing as well but it has a lot of lag so use it as a mixup.

There's not a whole lot you can do to her when edgeguarding, especially if she's recovering high (no one but Jigglypuff and Pikachu/Pichu can, really), but Egg Tosses are great for racking up damage and Egg Toss -> U-air is a good combo that you can use if you're close enough. Just remember not to do the double jump edgehog if she's going to do her Up + B; it'll break your super armor. If she's this low, your best option is probably the Yoshi Bomb ledgestall because it will hit her and get her above you, which is where you want her to be, or kill her if she's at a high enough percent.

If you're at low percents when recovering you're good, but at mid to high percents is where the trouble starts. Always recover high and use your fast air speed to throw her off. If you're high in the air you can also do Yoshi Bomb -> grab ledge. If you're forced to recover low, your best and only option is to do a rising Egg Toss and hope you make it back.

Choose small stages when fighting Peach because it'll net you early kills. Pokemon Stadium is probably your best choice because you can kill her early from the top, and the sides are big enough for you to survive many of her attacks (just don't get gimped!). Yoshi's Story is another good pick but isn't quite as good because of the small blast zones from the sides. Battlefield in theory sounds like a good stage and is generally a good Yoshi stage, but I don't have much experience with this matchup on there. Avoid Dreamland at all costs because it's gigantic and will take you forever to kill her there. Final Destination is also a pain because there are no platforms to work with and Yoshi greatly benefits from them. Furthermore, avoid Fountain of Dreams because the moving platforms basically give her a moving D-smash, but I think it can work well on Peach players that don't pull too many turnips.

That's about all I have for this matchup. I didn't say how to effectively deal with turnips because the Peach players I've played against didn't pull too many. If anyone can help with this it'd be greatly appreciated!

Samus: 55/45
Ganondorf: 50/50

As stated previously, I'll get back to this later with plenty of reasoning behind my numbers. Feel free to contribute.
 

Purpletuce

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Awesome post, I like it so far. Some things that I think, and hope you might consider:

Although Yoshi has great maneuverability on platforms, I think Fox can match it, although he doesn't need to often. I wouldn't say Yoshi is the most maneuverable either. Crouch cancel is almost never a bad thing for Yoshi in this MU, and also you should consider stage control more. Yoshi might be well off with egg and platform camps, also ECE may be useful to lure him to the edge, if you want him there. I think Dream Land is good for Yoshi's recovery and Fox's nearly equally, but the size of the stage works against Yoshi, so I would place it at a decent stage for Yoshi, but Battlefield messes with Fox's recovery and doesn't give him as much space, so I would say it is Yoshi's best stage. I also think PS is the worst possible stage for Yoshi. If the Fox can't consistently waveshine you across FD, I think it works well as a canvas for Yoshi combos. Camping isn't a huge deal on FD more than anywhere else, as Fox doesn't have much laser control, so FD is decent IMO. As much as I hate the stage, FoD is a good option as well. I would want to ban PS always.
 

Kimimaru

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Good point about stage control; I didn't bring that up. Eggs are a great projectile that help greatly, especially on small stages. They're so hard to escape and you can make them go in every possible angle from ~15 - 200 degrees and they curve.

I think Yoshi has the most platform mobility because platform dancing allows you to maneuver through platforms quicker than any other character, especially with his great waveland. Most other characters have to wait a while to get off the platform and onto another platform from the current one they're on because their double jumps don't go descend at all and only go up.

I don't quite understand how Dreamland would work against Yoshi, though. D-smash kills fast fallers at very low percents and if a Fox eats one at ~60% he won't be able to make it back to the stage. At the same time, Dreamland does give Fox a lot of space to work with, but as stated above Yoshi will have an easier time maneuvering through the platforms. Not sure; I'm just very comfortable with Dreamland. Pokemon Stadium is definitely in Fox's favor, and I didn't think too highly of it at first, but at Rule 6 it was definitely my best stage (got many close games and 3 stocked a Marth). You can almost ignore the fire and rock parts of the stage because people usually camp and wait on them anyway, but I'd say that normal, grass, and water (aside from the windmill) are pretty good for Yoshi. I definitely agree with your sentiments on Battlefield, though: it's definitely one of Yoshi's better stages.

Also note that I'm not taking parries, which if executed frequently, completely break some matchups (Ex: Peach, Samus), into account for this matchup.
 

ShroudedOne

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Haha, I would figure Peach would destroy him that hard. I'll be looking for the reasoning when it comes; I'm interested.
 

Purpletuce

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I usually don't consider parry as a factor when looking at MUs, because nobody can abuse it effectively enough to make it gamechanging. I think the mobility of Fox in DL just gives him too many options. Also, considering other character's movement speed on platforms and in the air, as well as more options and longer wavelands, Yoshi isn't the best mobility, IMO. Mewtwo has more air maneuverability, a longer waveland and a third jump, so Mewtwo is better in every way, in that aspect. I would say Fox, CF, Marth, Peach, ICs, Sheik, Mewtwo, Pikachu and Pichu all beat Yoshi in platform maneuverability.

Note: I only really play against three foxes, one uber-technical one, Eggz, and Zelgadis. So my experience in the MU is biased, as I only play foxes that wreck me. :\
 

Kimimaru

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I don't think Yoshi has the best overall mobility, just the best platform mobility. Fox, Falcon, and Pikachu can arguably have as much platform mobility because of how fast they are. IC's, Marth, and Mewtwo also have a great wavedash/waveland so they can probably compete as well, but Sheik, Peach, and Pichu do not compare. Sheik's aerial movement speed is atrocious and Peach is very slow and has a slower double jump than Yoshi. Pichu's running speed is pretty slow and, from my knowledge, his wavedash is pretty average.

If you watch some November 2011 videos of Leffen's Yoshi you'll be able to see some of the awesome things Yoshi can do with his platforms and his double jump. Here's a good example (4:44 - 4:48).
 

Purpletuce

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Sheik's ground speed ,makes up for her air speed, and floating around platforms allows peach to not need a platform for 3 seconds at a time, giving her amazing maneuverability, as well as the option as attacking as she moves. It would be foolish to think those characters can't compete in maneuverability on platforms, although a decent argument can be made on either side for which is better. Also, videos like that ,are part of the reason I started Yoshi, and have watched that particular one plural times. A video with a more complete display of potential would be Mind Trick's Jurassic Parkour. Regardless of this aspect, Yoshi does have good platform maneuverability, and it is pretty easy to use. I think that is all that matters toward this discussion, and his exact level of maneuverability in comparison to other characters is trivial. Let's not bother arguing about it.
 

Purpletuce

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I like your Falco section, and agree with pretty much all of it. You should add in something about the utility of in this MU, especially against lasers. Shine killing your double jump is really annoying, although I try not to put myself in a position to give it as an option to my enemy, it has only happened a few times, so I have yet to implement this piece of theory bros: use any input to cancel your double jump, and when Falco shines you, instead of losing your double jump you will be popped up as regular (hopefully avoid a Dair).
 

Kimimaru

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I am interested to hear what you guys have to say about the Sheik MU.
Yeah, that'll be coming in a bit. I actually wanted to play some friendlies with you at Rule 6 but got caught up in some doubles friendlies for a while.

I like your Falco section, and agree with pretty much all of it. You should add in something about the utility of in this MU, especially against lasers. Shine killing your double jump is really annoying, although I try not to put myself in a position to give it as an option to my enemy, it has only happened a few times, so I have yet to implement this piece of theory bros: use any input to cancel your double jump, and when Falco shines you, instead of losing your double jump you will be popped up as regular (hopefully avoid a Dair).
At low percents his shine will barely break your double jump, allowing you to retaliate with U-air or something right after if you're above the stage. If you cancel your double jump and he shines you then you're in the worst possible position: in the air above him without your double jump. It's preferred to allow him to break your jump because Falco won't be able to follow up in this case after he shines since he'll need to jump to cancel it and you'll be below him. The best option is to not get hit at all, but the chances of that in any realistic match are next to none and in that case you're probably going up against someone with a much lower skill level than you.
 

Purpletuce

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I was referring to a situation where you're below the stage so his shine would put you back on stage level, if he steals your jump below the stage, you're guaranteed dead, so above him without a jump at least gives you a chance.
 

Kimimaru

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Yeah, if you're under the stage that's definitely something you can do, but only if you're 100% sure he's going to shine you. I mentioned using a rising Egg Toss to grab the edge in the Fox matchup and it would work just as well against Falco or anyone, really, so try that if nothing else you do is working.

EDIT: What I wrote for the matchup ratio for Falco was a little off from what I intended, so I fixed it. The same thing happened with the best case in the Jigglypuff matchup.
 

Kimimaru

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Great to have you back! I look forward to some more videos :)!

I've been practicing the Yoshi Bomb ledgestall, and I can confirm that it is 100% invincible if done correctly (Level 9 CPU Marth will spam D-tilt and Level 9 CPU Peach will spam D-smash when you're doing it). What I do is let go of the ledge then immediately double jump and press Down + B. Make sure to put the control stick back into neutral after Down + B otherwise you won't grab the ledge. I highly recommend every Yoshi player to learn it because it gives you so many more options on the ledge, and you can even switch between it and ECEs.
 

KirbyKaze

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Beware of Sheik's up smash if you like to use your double jump to escape her d-throw CG.

I feel Sheik's shield game is really strong in this MU because her WD is fast and Yoshi's shield pressure isn't exactly air tight. The risk he runs for being grabbed is also kind of big and her grab has dumb range.

Otherwise I agree with the strategy of the MU for the most part.
 

Kimimaru

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Good points. I'm thinking other options for escaping the chain grab are a simple N-air if you know she's not going to shield again or Untumble -> Air Dodge, but the second option makes you vulnerable for a while. Maybe even Yoshi Bomb will work since it makes Yoshi really small and moves him up for a bit, but I've never tried it. Perfect DJC N-airs have +3 frame advantage on shields so it's theoretically possible to force her to roll or something to escape the pressure. Unless you're really good at that, I'd say to not to get that close if she's in her shield.
 

KirbyKaze

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I find that Yoshi just sort of falls into more grabs if he tries to break with nairs but it is possible that local Yoshi nair timing is just not up to par with yours (very likely).

I've found myself grabbing Yoshi out of a lot of nairs when he approaches with them so that's probably something you want to avoid doing as much as possible.

I feel Yoshi has to pull Sheik into him to win this one, and sort of draw her into a trap or get her to do something silly that he can land a good combo starter for. And otherwise just constantly defend in a way that protects him from her grab. Which is a tall order. Not completely impossible or anything, but a very tall order. Getting Sheik to leave her shell is a chore.

Perfect DJC nairs have +3? That's pretty good. Didn't realize it had that much FA. Kind of sad this guy doesn't have a fast grab now - that would be a really sick mixup. Still wouldn't risk doing anything remotely grabbable vs Sheik though. The punishment is too rough. I don't think enough Sheiks use aerials to combo platformed opponents. They're often better than waveland regrab and lead to rougher combos.
 

Kimimaru

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Against Sheik, Yoshi shouldn't really be approaching. N-air's forward hitbox is terrible anyway, and I know that in general Yoshi players have a habit of using it a lot (including me in the past). It's pretty good to approach with against other characters but way too risky against Sheik. If anything, the Yoshi player should be doing well-spaced shield pokes with B-air and getting himself in a favorable position to attack Sheik. And yeah I agree with your thoughts on grabbing. It's very risky and he doesn't get anything out of it.

So yeah, you're partially right about Yoshi having to pull Sheik into him to win this one. Yoshi also has to space well to get in little hits every now and then to rack up damage. U-smash kills Sheik at a reasonable percent and eggs can help force Sheik to approach.
 

KirbyKaze

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Mmkay. I don't really disagree with anything you've said strategically but I think Sheik wins by more than what you put down. But that's really not a big deal to me so much as strategy accuracy is so... cool. Hope we can play sometime or something.
 

Purpletuce

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I don't have much experience in the Sheik MU, but I like F-air, (I might want to try late N-air(Front hitbox doubles in the first few frames)), F-smash and F-tilts than usual, I think they are harder to punish. I have found this stupid trick ridiculously useful: good spacing on F-air on shield -> F-smash. Their shieldstun and range make a good combo, and the enemy usually thinks WD-> grab would work, but they come short and eat a F-smash (great on icies) and if they go for a slow move, F-smash can be quicker, and if they shield, the range and shieldstun of F-smash, well spaced, doesn't give any hard punishes. At low %, I like to play projectile games, and considering the trajectories of needles and eggs, Yoshi wins if he is on higher ground. Sheik on platforms isn't as dangerous in terms of chain grabbing, and we talked about Yoshi's maneuverability on platforms before. As I'm writing this, I think platform camping (to a reasonable degree) might make this MU easier for me. . . I'll try it soon.

Also, Kimimaru, would you like help with any matchups? I can definitely contribute, if you like. Alternatively, if you want this to be your project, more power to you, whatever you prefer.
 

Kimimaru

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I can imagine F-tilt would be good against Sheik given its range, and your F-air -> F-smash idea sounds pretty good so I'll test that out.

Yeah, you can help! Anyone is free to contribute. I have little to no experience against ICs and barely any with Puff, Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario. One thing I do know about ICs is that Egg Lay will immobilize Nana for a good 4 seconds. Anyway, write up something and I'll put it on the first page.

EDIT: Off-topic, but what happened to the Vman Yoshi thread :(?
 

V3ctorMan

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Great to have you back! I look forward to some more videos :)!

I've been practicing the Yoshi Bomb ledgestall, and I can confirm that it is 100% invincible if done correctly (Level 9 CPU Marth will spam D-tilt and Level 9 CPU Peach will spam D-smash when you're doing it). What I do is let go of the ledge then immediately double jump and press Down + B. Make sure to put the control stick back into neutral after Down + B otherwise you won't grab the ledge. I highly recommend every Yoshi player to learn it because it gives you so many more options on the ledge, and you can even switch between it and ECEs.
is not 100% sadly.. (I confirmed using frame data, and even brinstar with lava above stage height to test.. many other methods. i.e. Pikachu's Jabs etc. and it's VERY close... but sadly still not a 100% invincibility... it mine as well be... but not quite...more like 95% or so.. just thought I'd let you know ^^

but regardless good stuff ^^

EDIT: on regards to my thread.. --> Also to answer your question^

The thread is still here... it hasn't been responded to in a month since not much action has been going on, but since I've now returned... I'll revive the thread and get back on my yoshi motive, and get back to helping out..

LOL bump >.<
 

Kimimaru

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How long does edge invincibility last, by the way? I can't find the frame data on that.

Also thanks! For some reason the thread disappeared?? It wasn't there for me until you bumped it.
 

V3ctorMan

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You know honestly... >.<; it wouldn't be a bad idea to RETEST this... I had played with this nearly a year and a half ago, when I made the announcement to maining Yoshi, and I did this all then.... I don't know where the reference is to the initial data itself... but we figured using a TAS program would give us the same result.. so it's what we used, and still got hit, so basically I've been going off of that info... (but technically I could still be wrong right) xD

Just tested a while ago, and no cigar, so I've just been going with it since.. :p
 

Kimimaru

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Also Vman, if you want to and you have some spare time would you mind writing up the Pikachu matchup? Out of all the Yoshi players in the world I'd figure you'd have the best experience against Pikachu.
 

Purpletuce

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I have a decent amount of experience in the Jiggs MU, but I think my method could improve. I also love the IC's matchup, and think it is better than most people say, I would gladly write it. I have ,limited Pika MU knowledge, and a good portion of it comes from Jetfour, and I bet his knowledge on the MU comes from V3ctorman. I'll try to write the Jiggs and IC's soon. Possibly Samus as well. I don't mean to pry, but how long have you played competitively, Kimimaru?
 

Kimimaru

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I've been playing Yoshi since the game came out but have only been playing competitively for 2 and 1/2 years. I've only been to one tournament but play lots of friendlies with the people in my region. Unfortunately all of them just use Fox, Falco, Falcon, and Marth except for one Puff player that I don't get to play with often.
 

Purpletuce

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Fair enough, I have much less experience than you in the game in general then, I played off and on since it came out, but only started competitive in January. I've been to about a dozen tournaments though, and have played a good amount of people.
 

Purpletuce

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My opinions on some MU:
Peach: As Yoshi, you tend to CC often, yes? Obviously you can't do that here. Try to avoid getting in her face unless you have to, most of your 'combos' won't be true combos, and they will be in the air. I like to think of this as a spacing MU, space well, and play the projectile game. You can use Egg Lay to get her above you, and try to hit her with eggs/U-airs When she is in the egg, stay close to where she lands, and expect her to go up, beware her N-air that can hit you on the way up. Stay as close as possible without risk from N-air, closer the easier it is to chase her up. Get her high, and rack up damage with eggs/ U-airs. U-air and U-smash are good finishers. If you get a knockdown (d-tilt), you can chase well, but melee is risky. Platforms are good, although I think it is better to stay below her, unless you jump up into a D-smash, she can't do much from above. I remember I think Leffen described the idea of running her recovery low with eggs placed in front of her, forcing her to eat the egg, or back away from the stage when recovering, RECE ***** a this. If she recovers high, got for more eggs/ u-air. I think PS is good for this, because you can recover well on the sides, and kill her well on lower ceilings. Note: U-smash is reallly good too.

Jiggs: Same general idea as Peach, but your ground game is more viable, and rest is scary.To punish rest, I have 3 things I use/try: 1. full charge U-smash(backwards is the only way that hits, lower hitbox in reverse), 2. F-air -> U-air, U-tilt, N-air, D-air, 3. or if I'm brave, ledge-cancel D-air -> U-air. Platforms are useful, and take advantage of your projectile. Beware her aerials can eat eggs easily though. U-smash > aerials. Your B-air/ D-tilt are still good openers.

I.C.s: Mother of all Yoshis, don't ever get grabbed when both I.C. are alive, and at ,low % be aware SoPo can chain you with D-throw. Use your fantastic maneuverability to desynch them, and if you get grabbed, button mash to escape before Nana catches up. The best way to take out I.C. is to take out Nana first, which is easiest when you separate them. Once I seperate I.C.s, I go ape**** on Nana, using al,l of Yoshi's speed and power to kill as fast as possible, pretend Nana is a lvl 3 cpu, which she kind of is, I usually assume she will miss techs, and just DJC Nair where she lands, Fair her if she goes off and D-smash if she is open for it. This is fun. Calm down if Popo is close again. When you have just the Popo, he isn't that bad, use your better range and simply outpower him. They have the amung worst traction in the game when not on ice, so don't be afraid to destroy their shield with high shieldstun attacks, as long as you can't get grabbed, F-air -> F-smash/D-smash looks really punishable, but it seems that I.C.s can only hit with with neutral B if you space it properly. Also, if you play against SoPo for a while, you will realize that his sideB has good recovery distance, but is predictable enough for you to kill him once he is off the stage relatively easily. This is one of my favorite MUs. Be aware that djcc sucks here, as the first I.C. will break dj easily, and the second will kill you. F-smash from both will kill you at like 50% if you try to djcc it.
 

Kimimaru

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Good advice! Against Jigglypuff, I found that you can actually fight her pretty comfortably in the air because of your superarmor, which makes her not able to hit you without you hitting her back. She can't afford these trades either because if she eats a U-smash at 70% she's done for. Jigglypuff also doesn't really have anything besides U-tilt that leads into rest, so if you can avoid that you're fine. While it's true that her aerials break eggs, only B-air's hitbox is big enough to avoid them entirely. If she's using other attacks you can angle them to hit under or above her. She also doesn't have a good answer to ECEs so she's forced to approach. Another punish for a missed Rest is Egg Toss -> U-smash.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on separating the ICs? What are some good attacks to do and how cautiously should you be playing against them?
 

Purpletuce

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Jiggs addendum: Against Jiggs, I would say your super armor isn't too reliable, maybe until 40% at most, but her aerials are pretty good at breaking your jump, and if she does that, she can WOP you to death pretty easily when you have no jump. To avoid rests, Jiggs can rest you out of D-throw unless you di away, any reads(techs, rolls, etc), U-tilt, U-smash at low %, U-air, Jab reset, sometimes D-air rest, rest oos, and crouchrest your dash at low %. Her oos rest works really easily against dash, and is probably possible against any smash. Jigg's N-air can beat eggs with any hitbox in its long animation, so it works very easily. In my experience, if Jiggs plays it smart, she can attack through 90% of eggs. Explain egg toss -> U-smash, do you mean throwing the egg then knocking Jiggs into it? Aren't eggs too laggy?

I.C.s addendum:When I played against I.C. I thought to not let myself get grabbed by both. The easiest ways to do that are to simply out maneuver them, because (someone check my number here) Nana has 4 frames input lag of popo, they will be separated pretty in fast situations, also, some things Nana does makes it easy. For example, when I.C.s respawn on a stage with a top platform, if Popo doesn't land on the platform, then drop through it, and falls through the platform by holding down, Nana will separate, because she never will fall through a platform. When I.C.s attempt to maneuver, they will become seperated, even if only slightly. Also, sometimes, I.C. users will intentionally desynch, so that works. The other way is to simply hit them(because they may DI differently, or get hit by differnt hitboxes), especially if they have different amount of damage. Once they are separated, hitting only Nana will keep them separated. For cautious approaches, I would recommend the following options: playing defense and letting them mess up, High stun moves (F-smash, F-air, D-smash), the glorious D-tilt, Eggs( your projectile is better than theirs.), Egg lay(haven't tested it yet). I think I should implement more Egg Lay. Care to theory bros it? I think Egg lay guarantees a separation because you can only grab them, and because of their weight and falling speed, might throw the,m off quite a bit. I think it would open up the I.C. who wasn't grabbed pretty well, and although they could try to regroup with the other, you can get in their way pretty well. I will have to test this plan though. By the way, like the new avatar/text color? :D
 

Kimimaru

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For the Rest punish I mentioned, you need to throw an egg so it will land on the ground next to Jigglypuff, then follow up with a U-smash. This won't work at higher percents but it'll net you at least ~28% on her. If she's at higher percents then just do a fully charged backwards U-smash.

I thought of Egg Lay for ICs because it'll separate them for sure. It's probably the best move you can use for separation. Also, if you look at the start of this video you'll see that Nana will stay in the egg for a long time, so I'd imagine you want to abuse that as much as you can.

Your avatar is good, but your text color conflicts with the background of posts so it makes it really hard to read and strains my eyes, sorry.
 

leffen

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Just coming in here to say that V3ctorman is wrong, down b stall is 100% invincible if done right. However, it requires you to be frame perfect (i've tested this in AR, I also thought it wasnt 100% before)


His other stalls are waveland off->fastfall regrab and aerial land->runoff dj regrab, both 100% invincible.


also your guys matchups numbers and general thoughts about the matchups are horribly incorrect in many aspects imo... my honest opinion is stop stating matchup numbers, and definitive guides on how to play matchups... at least until you reach a top level of those matchups....
Focus on writing on breaking down a particular matchup and testing things


btw your avatar/text combo is pretty damn awful on the eyes imho
 

Kimimaru

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What exactly do you mean by the "aerial land -> runoff dj regrab"? Also, while the numbers may be incorrect, I don't particularly think the tactics themselves are too far off. I know that you play on the PAL version most of the time, where Yoshi is buffed slightly and several other characters were nerfed slightly, so maybe your experiences are slightly different than mine, purple's, Vman's, etc.

Where are we wrong in these matchups and what are some things you'd suggest in improving our play?

Also Leffen, are there any more recent videos of your Yoshi in tournament matches?
 

Purpletuce

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I don't know anything about the ledge stalls, but I do know that all of my posts are my opinions, as nobody can effectively make a "definitive guide", also, numbers are too concrete for me to have committed to, so I don't need to worry about that. The idea that we should not post these based on the fact we are not at the top level of play would render every smasher's argument under a weight on how well they place in tournament, which would effectively kill any development in the smash scene, and probably remove the need for these boards. If you really think about it, who can honestly say what the top level of play is?

Text color lightened for more contrast, does it help? White bores me, but I don't want my text to be obnoxious.

Edit: I use the standard background/skin, I don't know if that's common.
 

V3ctorMan

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is not 100% sadly.. (I confirmed using frame data, and even brinstar with lava above stage height to test.. many other methods. i.e. Pikachu's Jabs etc. and it's VERY close... but sadly still not a 100% invincibility... it mine as well be... but not quite...more like 95% or so.. just thought I'd let you know ^^

but regardless good stuff ^^

EDIT: on regards to my thread.. --> Also to answer your question^

The thread is still here... it hasn't been responded to in a month since not much action has been going on, but since I've now returned... I'll revive the thread and get back on my yoshi motive, and get back to helping out..

LOL bump >.<
You know honestly... >.<; it wouldn't be a bad idea to RETEST this... I had played with this nearly a year and a half ago, when I made the announcement to maining Yoshi, and I did this all then.... I don't know where the reference is to the initial data itself... but we figured using a TAS program would give us the same result.. so it's what we used, and still got hit, so basically I've been going off of that info... (but technically I could still be wrong right) xD

Just tested a while ago, and no cigar, so I've just been going with it since.. :p
^I was actually on my way coming back here to respond saying I may have been incorrect, Prolly just very difficult to perform frame perfect as Leffen stated... Was playing a bit more with it yesterday while Axe was visiting, and yeah.. ><; Either way thanks Leffen.. <3

Just coming in here to say that V3ctorman is wrong, down b stall is 100% invincible if done right. However, it requires you to be frame perfect (i've tested this in AR, I also thought it wasnt 100% before)








His other stalls are waveland off->fastfall regrab and aerial land->runoff dj regrab, both 100% invincible.








also your guys matchups numbers and general thoughts about the matchups are horribly incorrect in many aspects imo... my honest opinion is stop stating matchup numbers, and definitive guides on how to play matchups... at least until you reach a top level of *those matchups....
Focus on writing on breaking down a particular matchup and testing things








btw your avatar/text combo is pretty damn awful on the eyes imho


Also Leffen ^ be Nice >.<; It's Yoshi discussion we have very few players as it is, and everyone is entitled to an opinion, and their "personal thoughts are being heard... (though I do agree with you, that I feel "different" about some of their opinions) It's just from perspective... Again, like all of us, everyone is just trying to provide enlightenment on their thoughts etc... and I admire it.. :)

These boards need it...

Also to the question about my opinion on the Falco matchup.. Yeah i'll post my thoughts, soon ^^
 

Purpletuce

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^ again, I'm relatively new so you take anything I say with a grain of salt, but I'm going to post what I do/have found to work. I definitely have aspects of my play that are bad though, and am improving often. I don't think I seriously picked up Yoshi until March, at which time I play occasionally around school, and over summer I live 70-100 minutes from the next competitive smashers, so I have limited experience. That being said, in that time frame, I've become able to hold my own and play competitively with state level players, the only two people I can't really hold my own with are Eggz (I've seen him take a match off PP in NWM, so I'm not embarrassed there.) and A guy named Foos when he plays Sheik(#2 on Oregon PR). I plan on improving more, and definitely would like lots of feedback.
 

knightpraetor

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is it weird that as a marth player I fear yoshi the most out of the low tiers..cause i don't even know what the char is really capable of.... (and by low tier I mean non-top 6)

I'm tempted to go sheik and chaingrab yoshi if it comes up...even if my marth is better I don't even know how super armor or parrying affects the matchup..i'll probably take some stupid risk and die.
 

Kimimaru

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It's not weird. I actually think the matchup is even. I play with a Marth player all the time and he absolutely loathes playing against Yoshi (as well as a Falcon player I play with. Even I dislike fighting Yoshi, although the dittos are really fun). You can't fight him like you fight other characters because of his super armor and unique shield. Avoid D-tilt at all costs because he can gimp you very easily with it. Don't try to sweetspot the edge if you happen to get hit by D-tilt because he can easilly CC your Up + B and D-tilt again then edgehog. D-smash will also kill you at low percents so avoid that too. You can't afford trades either, so if Yoshi is in the air and he has his double jump then don't attack until you know he's vulnerable or won't expect it.

If you're not good with Sheik I don't recommend choosing her just for the chaingrab. The chaingrab is a little overrated in my opinion, and any decent Yoshi player should be able to work around it. Someone did the same thing to me in a tournament and I ended up beating his Shiek.
 
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