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Yoshi Matchups & Best Stage Picks

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
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Nice work. I wish I could get a perfect score. Getting my midterm back today :))

As far as parrying goes i started out with projectiles too. After feeling more consistent, I try to parry SHFFL'd approaches (usually sex kicks and D-airs for spacies/falcon) that are predictable. Throwing in parries when in front of shields can be handy for avoiding shield grabs. Recently, parrying OoS options when I end up behind my opponents has become my new implementation.
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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Yeah, I've messed around with it on fairly obvious ShFFLs, Falco D-air. . . I hold down my L-button so I can't lightshield, which seems common practice, but I still have a completely standard controller(springs in shoulder buttons), is that normal, or do you guys have springless shoulder buttons?
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
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My own controller still has its springs (and I dont plan to ever change that).
Yeah I also remove lightshield on my shield button (R) to help with the parrying.
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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According to Vman it is a thing, but I've only seen Angel implement it once, and Leffen, Vman, etc haven't successfully done it in any of their videos, and I've seen a large amount of Yoshi videos.
 

Nogzor'z

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I sort of like to throw in parries to cover yoshi's big ol' nose/head in situations where there's a possibility that and attack/grab might nick me.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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Jun 30, 2008
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Stockholm, Sweden
So is

DJC nair > parry SH > ???

A thing vs shields?

Because that's kind of cool.
yes


I dont really have any videos up off it since there aren't any new ones and before when I were gonna use him seriously I didn't wanna show it off, but I did implement it pretty well when I was playing him.

Though DJC nair is +1 on shield so its used more commonly with Fair/Bair/Uair or after certain ground moves (jab->parry nair oos->usmash for example)

Its also your best tool against CCing... Nairing someone at low % who cc's, and then you go parry their cc grab into fair into full combo ^_^
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
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You know, I'm thinking the Peach matchup might not be as bad as I originally thought.

A problem Falco has against Peach is that she's able to float over his SHL height, but Yoshi's eggs deal with her float well, especially from below. Eggs also outprioritize turnips and can both stop the turnip and hit Peach if angled correctly. They also deal great damage and lead to U-air at mid-high percents, so Peach will have to make an effort to stop them, especially when floating. Yoshi can deal with Peach's turnips by catching or parrying them while Peach cannot do the same with Yoshi's eggs. Yoshi is also faster than Peach and can easily get from one side of a stage to the next by wavelanding, provided there are platforms.

So to sum this up I honestly think that, against a Yoshi player who has great aim and can maneuver well, Peach goes even with or loses to Yoshi. I believe Egg Toss is the key to winning this MU.
 

Purpletuce

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I disagree, because if the Peach has any idea how to implement pressure or stage control, you won't be able to camp her all day. When she is on you, her D-smash destroys Yoshi, and if you ever are in your DJ and get hit by it you're screwed. Her float can allow her to approach very well, and all of her aerials are capable of handling Yoshi. Peach definitely wins the MU if they know what to do. (Also, her shield game is pretty good, so she shouldn't be too afraid of anything you have. . .) I think Float cancel -> D-smash covers all of Yoshis punish options on her approach, except maybe a risky parry.
 

Kimimaru

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My idea was that eggs can really mess up her float approach. Yoshi's eggs cover pretty much all angles in front of him for a good distance, so she'll have to do something to stop an egg from hitting her.
 

Purpletuce

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Peach is faster than the eggs, if she doesn't let you block her off with eggs, the only thing you do is throw the egg close to you if she is far, and then after that you have lost stage control, and can't throw an egg again. Also, Jigglypuff has a cool intimidating WOP, Falco has pillaring, and I've heard it said before that Yoshi needs a cool named technique. . .

Yoshi's name for his DJC aerials -> Fidgeting. :p
 

Purpletuce

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Different thing. . . parrying is more defensive, not something to intimidate your opponent to no end. I want something that lower-level players can curse and say is broken and unbeatable when they lose because they're bad. "Jigglypuff is so gay! Her wall of pain is unbeatable with that dumb broken B-air!" -> Yoshi version. Yoshi needs to sound cooler, and parrying doesn't cut it. From watching EVERYONE's Yoshi videos, NOBODY can use parrying effectively enough to intimidate someone with it, I guess the timing is too hard, but everyone seems to only be able to implement it a few times a match, and a very seldom is it even useful. I'm going to retain this opinion until I see someone prove me otherwise(with video, not just saying you parry things).
 

Kimimaru

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very seldom is it even useful. I'm going to retain this opinion until I see someone prove me otherwise(with video, not just saying you parry things).
I disagree. The opponent could've hit or grabbed you but didn't because you parried. It doesn't matter if it was accidental or not.
 

Purpletuce

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I don't even see accidental parries implemented hardly ever. Except for a few simple temporary projectile stopping uses, I haven't seen anyone make it into much more than a little quirk or gimmick.
 

Kimimaru

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The best examples I think are in this video, starting at 11:20. The parries Leffen did at 11:20, 11:30, and 11:31 were stock changing. Instead of Pepito taking the stock, Leffen got a good amount of damage and almost took the stock.
 

Purpletuce

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Yes he parired, and turned the tide (with one parry, the other one(s)? seemed to only delay the pressure. Also, I didn't feel like re-watching that whole video, but I will later. If you actually watch it, parrying hurt Leffen in this set, because he was trying to force it, and took a low of damage from messing up (watch the very beginning, that's all I had to see). I feel like Leffen is a considerably better player than Pepito, and used the high level match as an opportunity to practice parries under pressure, but when under pressure he played better(not forcing parries). I do the same thing all the time. I always try to do my best, but against players worse than me, it becomes more practice and experiment, and less trying to do the best I possibly can (why bother being an *** and going for extra stocks, when you can get better?) Notice that he 3 stocked Pepito in one match. Notice he parried less in less favorable positions.

Note: I'm not trying to discredit Leffen's amazing performance in that set. I truly believe he did fantastic, and his videos are a substantial part of my Yoshi inspiration.
 

leffen

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Yes he parired, and turned the tide (with one parry, the other one(s)? seemed to only delay the pressure. Also, I didn't feel like re-watching that whole video, but I will later. If you actually watch it, parrying hurt Leffen in this set, because he was trying to force it, and took a low of damage from messing up (watch the very beginning, that's all I had to see). I feel like Leffen is a considerably better player than Pepito, and used the high level match as an opportunity to practice parries under pressure, but when under pressure he played better(not forcing parries). I do the same thing all the time. I always try to do my best, but against players worse than me, it becomes more practice and experiment, and less trying to do the best I possibly can (why bother being an *** and going for extra stocks, when you can get better?) Notice that he 3 stocked Pepito in one match. Notice he parried less in less favorable positions.

Note: I'm not trying to discredit Leffen's amazing performance in that set. I truly believe he did fantastic, and his videos are a substantial part of my Yoshi inspiration.



I don't really think you understand the game all that well yet tbh, so just keep your mind open. Parrying helps in a lot of situations, and you get a hefty reward from it.

The most important part about Parrying telling them what they cannot do. Now that falco just cannot approach with sh dair/nair anymore, he has to resort to other, weaker options. Those options lose to other off yoshis moves, so the reason why you see me 3 stocking him while parrying less is because he is conditioned to not do moves that can be parried.

Notice how almost every time I start parrying peoples approaches(or falcos laser), I do it successfully once and then try to do it as soon as possible again. This is to condition them that THIS DOES NOT WORK, and it puts them on tilt and forces them to use options they'd rather not.

Parrying did definitely not hurt me in this set overall, and even if it did, its a old video and the yoshi metagame was still very new. Do you think Foxes who waveshined did better than the ones who didnt in the beginning? Of course not.
 

Kimimaru

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I do it successfully once and then try to do it as soon as possible again. This is to condition them that THIS DOES NOT WORK, and it puts them on tilt and forces them to use options they'd rather not.
This was what I was thinking during that set. It forces your opponent to rethink approaches.
 

Purpletuce

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Your success rate was only good enough to get him a few times, it doesn't beat his approach as much as trick him into thinking it doesn't work, and he could have to not be self-aware to think parries shut down his SH N-air/D-air. I think this is the same idea behind using Egg Lay more to condition your opponent away from shielding. I just doubt the success ratio is good enough for it to be a threat, especially since it isn't a huge deal (it looks like). Don't get me wrong, I love parrying and think it is going to get bigger, but I also think it isn't as gamebreaking as it is flashy (at this point).
 

Kimimaru

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Your success rate was only good enough to get him a few times
That could be the difference between a win and a loss. Play a good SSB64 Yoshi player like SheerMadness and tell me parrying isn't game changing.
 

Purpletuce

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Get him a few good times + miss a few times and let Falco start a combo, it may break even. I think ((reward of successful parry)/(cost of missed parry))(success rate of parry)>50% then parrying is advantageous. Since it is easier for Falco to combo Yoshi, the ratio would only be worth it if you are better than the Falco, and can get more from your success then your mistakes(account for Yoshi's disadvantage) and your parry ratio is at least 50%. So against players of equal skill, you should try to implement it if you get over 50% of your parries.

Also parrying in SSB64 =/= parrying in SSBM. Also, Yoshi(64) =/= Yoshi(Melee), and SSB64 =/= SSBM.
 

Kimimaru

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Parrying in SSB64 is the pretty much the same as Melee's. The only real difference is U-smash out of parry is a better option in 64.
 

Purpletuce

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The entire game is different, the jumping frames are different, the options you have to worry about are different, the punishes are different, the combos is different, the play speed is different. In situation A, you're in a fist fight, and you use a knife. The knife is effective. In situation B, you're in a gun fight and you pull out the same knife, why would you expect the knife to have the same functionality? I am not saying that SSB64 parrying and SSBM parrying are that extreme in their difference(nearly certain victory vs nearly certain loss) but I am just showing you your logic. That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.
 

Kimimaru

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With as few Melee Yoshi players as there is it's hard to find examples of consistent parrying. However, 64 does have Yoshi players who can parry very consistently, and it's very useful. If Melee Yoshi players were able to parry as well then I think it would be just as useful, if not slightly less.

To present a more accurate analogy: In situation A your opponent is using his fists and you have a shield to guard against his attacks. In situation B your opponent is using a knife and you have the same shield, but it's just as effective against his attacks as the opponent in situation A's attacks. The shield works fine for both cases, so why would it be less useful in situation B?
 

Kimimaru

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Hey guys, that's really not the best way to think about people. I can understand where he's coming from since parrying hasn't been implemented consistently yet in the Yoshi metagame, but just because I have a different opinion of parrying's usefulness it doesn't mean I have to think lowly of him.
 

Purpletuce

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I still think parrying in SSB64 isn't analogous to SSBM in any way. Leffen, I don't particularly care about your opinion of me. Your play and knowledge of smash is amazing, but it seems your opinions are always negative, so I guess you'll have to dislike me. Kind of upset that KK thinks I'm a moron, but oh well. You don't have to think lowly of my opinion, but you can if you like. I still doubt that parrying will ever becaome a major part of the Yoshi game, and if it does, it will probably be more focused on projectiles. I think shield drops are more important to be honest, and that is an aspect that I haven't seen anyone pin down quite yet. I think the utility for a developed OoS option is greater than the utility of the counter with a relatively low success rate.

To clarify, I definitely don't think parrying is useless, but everyone thinks it is more useful than it is, and as much as I would like to believe I have perfect timing, I don't. I want to believe that I can implement parrying better than anyone else, and soon I'll be able to, but I know that is false, and I'm not going to become better through parrying (it seems like everyone wants to be the "best Yoshi", and once one person said they can parry something, everyone feels obligated to say they can do it better).

Now everyone is going to say they're good at shield dropping. . .
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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inb4 long rant. This is my last post in the Yoshi boards. If anyone wants to seriously get better with Yoshi, feel free to PM me. I still have a lot of tricks, theories and techniques that I havent told anyone about yet...if you're a good player who is actually motivated to not be pot fodder for the rest of your life, I wouldn't mind sharing, but otherwise please shush.



The large majority on smashboards is either 1. A low skilled player who often, but not necessarily thinks that he has a much better grasp on the game than he has and then puts up arbitrary, mental limits on his way of thinking/playing. There is often a tiny bit of hope for this type of player.
There is also 2. A low-medium experienced player who doesn't post anything whatsoever of use and justs circles a couple of arguments. This player is often a lost cause.

Purpletuce has now successfully transitioned into #2 for me.
I'd just like to say how ****ing ******** it is to waste time trying to convince someone who is just that... limited.



Your opinion is thought of lowly because its ****ing worthless. You are clearly a low ranked/skilled player, no one would ever take your opinion because of your status in the community. That leaves constructive and useful posting to give yourself some ****ing place to talk from. Instead, you spend time trying to set things in "stone" as if people actually cared about your opinion in the first place.
You criticize others use of parrying while not even scratching the surface on why its used as it is (probably because you're just to dumb/bad at this game/bad at posting) and then you repeat a couple of things that anyone with a braincell could think of.

PARRYING MAY BE NOT AS USEFUL AS YOU GUYS THINK.
Wow. insane. man thanks that taught me soooo much without the highly trusted opinion of worst yoshi in the us i could not have thought of the fact that I may be overrating a move.
SHIELD DROPPING MAY BE BETTER.
Wow, you are so smart. Because you know, having more options hurt. Why the **** are you trying to compare two entirely different moves/techniques? You don't even put any ****ing reasoning or examples up to back your theory.

And for the record, yes, I am ****ing good at shield dropping. Ask anyone who has ever faced me. Look at me vs Dev, look at anything and just open your ignorant ****ing eyes and you'd see how much it has already been used.



****ing scrubmaster purpletuce, stay bad, because with your attitude you deserve to be right where you are, at the bottom of the totem pole.

overall, **** the yoshi boards and every single character board that is considered low tier ever.
you are all awful players with no ambition that just keep limiting yourselves, I guess thats why you picked yoshi. Yoshi has some real ****ing potential, too bad you aren't making him justice. Just because he is rated low tier because people don't know how he works, he gets this type of players.
Sad, really.
 

Purpletuce

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I don't understand the nature of your post. You claimed I transitioned from #2, which implies I was once #1, which means you thought you had hope for me. You also state that if anyone had potential and PMed you would respond, and you are wrong. If you did think I had potential, then I can't imagine why you ignored my PMs before.

Everyone knows you enjoy talking down to people, we get it. Honestly, Leffen, you would be a good poster if you posted more worthwhile posts. You used to. Now you just complain, it is a waste.

In your matches with Dev, watch them carefully, because we both can see when you spot dodge, and we both know you're trying to shield drop.

Stop trying so hard to prove you're the best.

I can't wait for Angel to be a big name.
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 26, 2008
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Flagstaff, AZ
I just want more people to play yoshi so the world can see how incredibly fun/awesome/unique he is to play. (the way I we see him)
 

Kimimaru

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When I was playing with PewPewU last Saturday he told me I influenced him to train a pocket Yoshi :). I don't think he'll ever use it in tournament, though... :(

He also agreed with me when I said Yoshi was the hardest character in the game to play.

I don't know if it's just me, but in recent tournaments (meaning this year) I noticed even less character diversity than before. Everyone seems to play Fox/Falco/Falcon and now Peach (because of Armada's success with her). I rarely see any Samus, Ganondorf, or Jigglypuff mains. Heck, I don't even see as many Marth mains anymore.
 

Nogzor'z

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When I was playing with PewPewU last Saturday he told me I influenced him to train a pocket Yoshi :). I don't think he'll ever use it in tournament, though... :(

He also agreed with me when I said Yoshi was the hardest character in the game to play.
If more people start having "pocket" yoshis, then maybe there is a chance he'll see the spotlight one day :D.

heh the words "pocket yoshi" made me chuckle.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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I still doubt that parrying will ever becaome a major part of the Yoshi game, and if it does, it will probably be more focused on projectiles. I think shield drops are more important to be honest, and that is an aspect that I haven't seen anyone pin down quite yet.

To clarify, I definitely don't think parrying is useless, but everyone thinks it is more useful than it is,

Now everyone is going to say they're good at shield dropping. . .
Apparently, you don't watch enough of me, or Axe... and no selfishness here, but ESPECIALLY me, as of late, (then again, I haven't really recorded anything, so I guess you can't technically know.. You can ask around, I can assure you MOST people would say, I'm one of the most fluent, efficient shielddrop utilizers, and have taught or still am teaching many of the players here (not to mention Yoshi's shielddrop is pure GOLD.... man there are MANY that do... You need to watch some more then, there are many players who use shielddropping efficiently/effectively, but me, Axe are DEFINETELY, 2 of the best. Leffen, also excels at usage of shielddrops...

On the parrying thing, again, ESPECIALLY as of late, and high level play, you either need to watch "closely" more of me, angel, and i'm sure Leffen if he decides to pick up Yoshi again, it is used by all of us 3, a consistent amount...on more than just projectiles... perhaps I need more MU's recorded so you can see, but I've played shroomed, hbox, hax, m2k, axe, taj, I.B. Kirbykaze, and MANY others... it's actually alot more developed than you'd think... Angel, and myself are pushing Yoshi to bigger, larger limits... and Leffen (if he decides to come back) and in due time hopefully more players come along.

Not saying, I'm "this, or "that" just simply strongly disagreeing with a few of your statements/claims, but of course, respect your opinions/thoughts.
 

YOSHIDO

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Awww people always argue, Anywho to help out Purp, I think everyone else just doesn't like hearing anything bad about parrying. I believe parrying is great, but it is situational or limited when it comes to less direct methods of approach. When that happens you have to switch up your parrying and ways of countering all together.

For example, a fox rushing in with a blatant nair is easy to parry punish, a fox running in with a late nair to shine - Safe. A fox approaching with dair, safe you can only parry one hit, u could maybe parry upsmash if he badly spaced it. But mainly in this case its better to move and tilt him apon landing.
 

Nogzor'z

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I still need to work on my shield drops :?
Parrying will always be an extra "tool" for me. How much I use it depends on a wide variety of factors such as:
- Specific MU call for it
- Opponent's play style
- How I feel at that moment
- My average consistency

Now and then I like to practice parrying EVERYTHING. Its quite fun.
 
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