Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Kiwikomix]

Looks good on the Lucas matchup. One thing I would like to note, however, is that ftilt and dash attack have some pretty sick priority on them, which can often, if not reliably, stop short Yoshi's advance.
Also, keep in mind that the zap jump is still useful if the Lucas decides to risk it. That makes him a lot tougher to edgeguard... think the Wario Waft fully charged offstage.

 

[Mmac]

But his Dash attack is pretty laggy though. I guess thats true with the Zap Jumping, but it still goes in Yoshi's Favour.

And I think were underestimating the power of the infinite against Wario. I mean... It's an Infinite, and not even an hard one at that. All you need to do is just Grab, Z,Z,Z,Z,Z, Release, Timed Released Grab, Repeat until 150%, Usmash, Dead. Repeat 2 More Times.

Edit: Also I don't think Bowser is 7:3, but rather 6:4. He's got a good enough solid Air game to hold against himself against Yoshi, plus can edgeguard well with the Flames, which can be a problem if his DJ Armour doesn't finish through

 

[Chaco]

Rebringing up the ICmatch-up to the recent discovery that you can pressure Nan into footstooling Popo.

 

[Mmac]

Nana can Footstool Popo?!? O_o

Also I think C. Falcon is also Worse than a 7:3. I mean he's constantly in trouble when fighting him. Pivot Grabs shut down almost every approach he has, and the majority of his Air Game is bad and just can't match Yoshi.

 

[Chaco]

Yeah, she does and can. Happened to a guy at a tournament.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yeah, she does and can. Happened to a guy at a tournament.

Hahahahhahaha

This made my day.

 

[Kiwikomix]

All in favor of making Bowser harder and CF easier?
Not exactly sure on Bowser, since Yoshi can DJAD the firebreath from the edge, but I would agree that every now and then it can screw up Yoshi's recovery. Also his fair is brilliant but isn't really ranged enough to hassle Yoshi that effectively.

And here's a Mario discussion starter:
Eggspamming is kind of pointless because of the cape, so definitely avoid throwing an egg at the beginning as it will put a hamper on your immediate approach. That being said, approaching in almost any other circumstance will be pretty simple. Fireballs, even if they hit you, are one of the most worthless projectiles in the game unless you're on the edge (more on that later), so even taking a hit from them won't leave you stunned long enough for Mario to capitalize on it. Pivot grabs and your tilts outrange any ground options he has, and bair outranges him in the air. A few things to look out for include his fsmash, which still packs a punch even though it's easier to sourspot, and if you miss a grab you're going to pay for it.
Mario is one of the few characters that can legitimately screw up Yoshi's recovery. Caping isn't exactly useful but FLUDD can really hurt you. You should attempt to recover from down low, throwing an egg to make him use his cape or take the hit, then double jump up to the ledge. Even then, it's still pretty difficult. Avoid letting him charge that thing at all costs.
I'm leaning toward either a neutral or a 6:4 in Mario's advantage. Thoughts?

 

[Shiri]

Mario's tilt game still hurts real bad.

I'd say the advantage isn't much more than what you said, though, even though he combos the mess out of Yoshi.

 

[Mmac]

After playing a few more games with Falcon Players, I have concluded that it is a pretty easy fight for Yoshi. Conclusion. Fighting Falcon is like fighting a Fast Ganondorf, except for the shear fact that if if he does get hits in, they'll usually wont count. Falcon has huge problems killing Yoshi due to all of his Kill moves having serious lag problems, so he has to resort to combos. Only problem like I explain is that he can't approach at all, so he also has problems comboing.

Bowser I feel is being underestimated. It still plays in Yoshi's favour, but Bowser has Airs that can match. Bowser has a decent Ground game to match, and he can edgeguard well. He doesn't seem that easy to deal with, especially comparing it to the likes of Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, or Samus

Anyways, onto Mario. He's a strange one. He doesn't do much good in the air due to a worser Fair, but he can combo better compared to Luigi. Mario's Ground game is practically the same as Luigi's, so he shares the same pro's and con's as him, except for a better Dash attack. Mario's Fireball seems to be better than Luigi's... at least I feel that way, and can open up an approach sometimes. His FLUDD I never seem to be bothered by it, but It doesn't seem like it wouldn't effect his DJ THAT much (Although if he already used it, then it could be trouble). He doesn't have as a good of a recovery compared to his Younger Bro, Thus easier to intercept. Overall, Mario has more Comboing ability for a lack of Killing Options, where Luigi has the opposite (More Killing Options for less comboing ability). It's still about Neutral 5:5 due to even having less Killing Specials/Airs, his ground game is still the same kinda, and can still hurt

 

[Deleted member]

Id like to say falcon is even or 6-4, after falcon experience in a tourny today (we have really good falcons lol). Falcon is really fast. Like seriously. Not just his running speed as some would think. His main moves are really really fast. Uair, fast, hardly any lag when not autocancelled, kills offstage. Jab, nuff said, comes after uair leads to grabs. Nair, so what if it has no priority, it doesnt need it, it doesnt go up against other attacks. Dair- autocancelled dairs are good. Falcon kick is pretty good. Falcon's playstyle is about as similar to ganny as yoshi is.

Spamming pivot grabs doesnt work, falcon can just land outside and punish with a dash attack to uair or something similarly gay. Yoshi's bair is his main winning point in this matchup, because it outranges most of his attacks while being quick and hard to punish. Cgs are good, but most of my matches were on stages like yoshis island and lylat (unfortunately), and u cant cg there, and grabs arent exactly easy to land. Yoshi can combo falcon fairly well, but falcon can do the same to yoshi(seriously, good falcons are scary). Falling uair->jab->grab is really good, so dont shield it, pivot grab or just get out of there. He can have trouble killing, but he actually can edgeguard yoshi pretty well with uairs. Yoshis dair>falcons upb. Lots of tilts in this matchup, u need the quick priority.

Dont make claims about falcon without playin good ones, we dont like it when people do it to yoshi, so dont do it to falcon.
Thats all i have to say on that matchup for now. Falcon is crap online,so dont base experiences on him on that.

 

[Mmac]

Ok, I wasn't trying to make bashful claims to anyone. The guys I've played claimed they were good Falcon users. I guess they weren't. Also what do you mean by he's crap online? Like there's no good Falcons on Wi-Fi?

You did bring up some good points though, but Pivots can still shut down his ground approaches (Being Dash, SideB, DownB, and Short Hop Airs), when used right. I don't know what you mean by "Spamming" the Pivot grab though. I think Spamming... anything is not smart at all. His Uair sounds scary, and same with that combo, but I've haven't fall victim to Neither.

It's sad that the Falcons I played told me that they were really good ones. Even sadder that other people told me about them. At least I know what a BAD "Good" Falcon plays like. I'm backing down from the 8:2, but I'm still staying with a 7:3 until I play a good Falcon myself. I think they're are great Falcon users out there online as the same caliber you faced. I just don't see a 6:4 or 5:5 yet

Also about Mario, He's seems to be harder to edgeguard than I once thought. I still say 5:5 but it's slowly drifting away to his advantage.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry not spamming. Assuming the falcon knows the matchup(which we should), the falcon shouldnt be running in. Falcon doesnt do that in any matchups, this is no different. If you pivot grab,u can be punished (not to say they arent good, they are, just u cant expect him to run in and approach while u pivot grab, thats not how it works here). Anyone who claims they are good is usually not good. WHen i said falcon is bad online, i meant that he cant do many things online due to lag, and stuff like the falling uair to jab to grab takes a bit of precision.

His uair is very scary, you really dont want to be below falcon, problem is he has lots of ways to get u there. Also, jab side bs.

 

[Scala]

Nobody really factored in mario's cape. If he turns you around during the DJ you are in trouble.

Bringing up Wario again: if you DJ into his bite attack and he throws you off the edge you die.

 

[Mmac]

Nobody really factored in mario's cape. If he turns you around during the DJ you are in trouble.

Bringing up Wario again: if you DJ into his bite attack and he throws you off the edge you die.

Not really, His horizontal Air Speed and Egg's should make it back.

And not true if you realize that it will take away your DJ and you use your Egg's

Also why is Wario still even? >_<

 

[Deleted member]

Eh i think jiggs bair beats yoshis bair, and his pound certainly does. That would make the match at the least even, because that means yoshi isnt safe in the air. And i think her bair does beat yours =/

I think c falcon and jiggs shud both be changed to 6-4 at least.

 

[Mmac]

I don't think Jigglypuff's Bair beats out Yoshi's Bair. It might if you space it right, but I'm still not sure. I haven't have much problems so far matching Jigglypuff in the air coming from the Back or Below. Even above I think Dair beats her Uair, but I haven't been on top of Jigglypuff much yet

 

[Kiwikomix]

Sorry not spamming. Assuming the falcon knows the matchup(which we should), the falcon shouldnt be running in. Falcon doesnt do that in any matchups, this is no different. If you pivot grab,u can be punished (not to say they arent good, they are, just u cant expect him to run in and approach while u pivot grab, thats not how it works here). Anyone who claims they are good is usually not good. WHen i said falcon is bad online, i meant that he cant do many things online due to lag, and stuff like the falling uair to jab to grab takes a bit of precision.

His uair is very scary, you really dont want to be below falcon, problem is he has lots of ways to get u there. Also, jab side bs.

The only problem I see here is that Yoshi is a horizontal-attacking character, not a vertical one. He saves vertical situations for either KOing or damage-racking. As such, there might not really be that many circumstances in which you're above him. And yes, some of CF's attacks tend to push opponents up, but I just take that to mean that he deals with combos in a different way from Yoshi. The thing is, Yoshi at least has something to fall back on if his initial attempt at anything doesn't work. CF doesn't really have many options in this matchup (or in any others, for that matter), and the few he has don't really make up for all the ones he doesn't.
For example, how exactly will Captain Falcon get KOs? All of his KO moves are laggy except uair, and the way you explain it makes it seem like he'll be using it enough to deteriorate it. He doesn't even have a great enough recovery or great enough aerials to gimp Yoshi's recovery. So I'm confused as to how that makes it easy for him to deal with Yoshi. He may deal with him relatively easily, but relative doesn't matter that much. Relativity is what's keeping the MK matchup in MK's favor: It's better than what most can do but it's still not great.

Nobody really factored in mario's cape. If he turns you around during the DJ you are in trouble.

Bringing up Wario again: if you DJ into his bite attack and he throws you off the edge you die.

If the cape worries you, just aim for the ledge instead of right above it.
For Wario, you should do the same thing. Or, if all else fails, just DJAD right past him. Just because it can grab shields doesn't mean it can grab airdodges.

Also why is Wario still even? >_<

I thought I changed that to 6:4. Whoops.

Eh i think jiggs bair beats yoshis bair, and his pound certainly does. That would make the match at the least even, because that means yoshi isnt safe in the air. And i think her bair does beat yours =/

I think c falcon and jiggs shud both be changed to 6-4 at least.

I've been a little iffy on the Jiggz matchup ever since I put it to 7:3. For one, like you said, pound is ridiculous. The one thing Jiggz didn't lose from Melee =(
However, it's a two-way street. Jiggz can't approach that well and she will have to 90% of the time. She can't really deal with eggs since she doesn't have a great disjointed hitbox anywhere, so she'll resort to airdodging (something you can capitalize on if you're adventurous, but ultimately it just slows her down and increases her chances of getting hit). On another note, Yoshi is completely backwards in this matchup - he should often be attacking vertically in the air and he should be grounded more than he is in the air. Suspicious as this sounds, Jiggz really can't deal with it all that well. Not to mention that not a single attack she has can deal with a pivot grab.

Even above I think Dair beats her Uair, but I haven't been on top of Jigglypuff much yet

*Resists urge for sex joke*

 

[Bwett]

*Resists urge for sex joke*

Omg, I was thinking the same thing lol.

 

[Deleted member]

The only problem I see here is that Yoshi is a horizontal-attacking character, not a vertical one. He saves vertical situations for either KOing or damage-racking. As such, there might not really be that many circumstances in which you're above him. And yes, some of CF's attacks tend to push opponents up, but I just take that to mean that he deals with combos in a different way from Yoshi. The thing is, Yoshi at least has something to fall back on if his initial attempt at anything doesn't work. CF doesn't really have many options in this matchup (or in any others, for that matter), and the few he has don't really make up for all the ones he doesn't.
For example, how exactly will Captain Falcon get KOs? All of his KO moves are laggy except uair, and the way you explain it makes it seem like he'll be using it enough to deteriorate it. He doesn't even have a great enough recovery or great enough aerials to gimp Yoshi's recovery. So I'm confused as to how that makes it easy for him to deal with Yoshi. He may deal with him relatively easily, but relative doesn't matter that much. Relativity is what's keeping the MK matchup in MK's favor: It's better than what most can do but it's still not great.

He doesnt have an easy time with yoshi. I say 6-4 in yoshis favor. And you are right, he does have problem getting KOs usually. His sliding usmash slides pretty far, and because of the slide, the startup lag doesnt really matter. The knee is also pretty deadly, but falcon has a tough time landing it in this matchup, his fsmash is like yoshis with the pullback, except its more powerful with less pullback. Uair is mostly to get u off stage, and even when deteriorated, it can still break ur double jump and hit u pretty far out. I was pointing out that most people say falcon cant do anything and has no chance, which is completely biased and untrue, and that falcon can do serious damage to an unprepared yoshi (i learned my lesson). Falcons dash attack, side b, throws, nair, and uair all hit u in places where you are above falcon, and his uair is so fast that if you airdodge an uair he can still hit u with another one before u can airdodge again. He relies on his few good attacks to win, but hes not really predictable. I make it sound like falcon is advantaged against yoshi, he definately isnt, but he has enough ways to deal with yoshi that 6-4 seems more appropriate.

 

[Mmac]

I still think my comment on Pivot's Grabs can stop most of his approaches cold still holds true. It seems like as long as your not in the air and have your feet firmly on the ground, then Falcon is going to have a much harder time dealing with you. I guess the key to this fight is to stay on the ground as much as possible

 

[Kiwikomix]

Exactly. Pivots don't bother CF as much as they do Jiggz, but it's definitely still worth mentioning. I dunno, just to give the benefit of the doubt I'll put it as debated on the original post. Maybe some more CF personal experience would do me good... I'll get back to you then.

Edit: Personally, I thought that the 7:3 matchups still admit that the other character can do some good, which is what you're trying to prove. A 7:3 matchup still means that the CF player will likely win one of three matches, it's not the two-game domination that 8:2 implies. So far I have yet to see that Yoshi dominates any character in that way.

 

[Deleted member]

Just so u know, if yoshi goes for a running grab, falcon can jump and sweetspot a knee on you QQ Not sure if its the same with pivot grabs. Also, you guys are making pivot grabs sound a little better than they are, like i said, if you are pivot grabbing his approaches, obviously, dont u think he will learn not to run into them and maybe lure one then punish it(which falcon can do cuz hes so darn fast!). They are helpful, but not as much as you'd think. Falcon experience is hard to come by, and judging matchups by online is meh(i try to only comment on matchups that i have firsthand experience with, which is why i dont say stuff about mario).

Edit: i lost a set to a falcon player in friendlies yesterday at a tourny QQ I guess im just bitter xD

 

[Mmac]

Anyways, more news from the other characters. Captain Falcon moved Yoshi to 4:6 Falcon, Claiming that He and Squirtle are the only ones they have an advantage on.

ZSS has a new Matchup thread up, and placed Yoshi as 5:5. Sounds reasonable enough. Haven't played many ZSS's though

 

[BBQ°]

@Kiwi: You said Yoshi has a disadvantage to Lucario but you put the ratio 7:3. Just saying to avoid confusion.

 

[Kiwikomix]

That would be my mistake. I went through the list a few days ago and switched all the disadvantages to opposite ratios so that you wouldn't have to go by color alone, and I must have forgotten Lucario. Whoops.

Edit: A few updates: I've changed the CF matchup to disputed, changed the Lucario to how it was supposed to be (thanks BBQ), and updated the Mario matchup to be either 4:6 or 5:5.
I'm no expert, so I'm off to see what they say about ZSS on her matchup thread. Also, WTF at Yoshi being Falcon's easiest? That seems a bit out there... imo Falcon's best matchup is Falcon. Although some advantages may eventually develop, at this moment it doesn't seem like Yoshi is one of them.

 

[Bwett]

Edit: i lost a set to a falcon player in friendlies yesterday at a tourny QQ I guess im just bitter xD

Speaking of which, how did you do out of how many people?

 

[hugglebunny]

burntsocks here.


I had to leave before singles started QQ. And in doubles i teamed with somebody i had never teamed before, so i didnt win any doubles either QQ. But i played well and it was fun so meh.

 

[Mmac]

So are we all agreed on Peach vs. Yoshi 5:5? We talked about her before... but it seems like she was lost in the archive.

Also we should be talking about ZSS too. Right now, ZSS has listed Yoshi as 5:5, but I can't go into detail, because like Sheik, I haven't really played much of her. 5:5 seems right though, at least what I think

 

[Defender]

Hello everyone. I know that the Wario discussion has been over for a while so please forgive me, but I thought that the consensus was that the Yoshi-Wario match-up was basically neutral (or slightly slanted in one character's direction depending on who you listen to). So why is that match-up listed as possibly being 7-3 in Yoshi's favor? Is it because of the infinite grab? It is my personal oppinion that the re-grab window is so small that it is somewhat risky to forfiet the free up-smash in order to try for the infinite. If it isn't the infinite grab that is making all this difference, then could someone please explain to me what is? I am constantly playing a good Wario main, so I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about this match-up, and I just can't see it being any more than 6-4 in Yoshi's favor, but I still see it like I saw it in my first post; namely, either neutral or slightly slanted in Wario's favor.

 

[Mmac]

Were talking about if it were to the best of the characters ability. All you need to do is just learn the timing, and it shouldn't be that hard. He can just Grab, and Grab, and Grab, and Grab, and Grab, and Grab until he's dead

 

[Deleted member]

I thought peach was much much harder than 5:5. I was thinking 6-4 at least =/ Peach just beats yoshi in the air and can stay low enough to mostly nullify his ground to air abilities, plus she pressures shields like a madman.

 

[Mmac]

I thought peach was much much harder than 5:5. I was thinking 6-4 at least =/ Peach just beats yoshi in the air and can stay low enough to mostly nullify his ground to air abilities, plus she pressures shields like a madman.

Not true. You can usually stop her approach with a Pivot Grab if she Ground/ShortHop Floats..... Yeah, I'm a Pivot Grab Addict.... But they're just so **** good! >_<. Also he's not that hard to intercept if you come from underneath if she goes the higher route. Her Air's are scary though.

Edit: Actually I don't remember if a ShortHop goes over Yoshi's Tongue, but if so, I think you can easily get her with a Sliding Usmash anyways

 

[Kiwikomix]

I believe Shiri had a reason or two why Peach beat Yoshi... but I haven't seen him here much recently.
Shiri, I'm calling you out!

 

[Deleted member]

I used to be like that with pivot grabs. But against smarter players, they arent as good, and they cant really shut down approaches unless they are like dash attacks or obvious fairs or something(a.e. falcon trying to approach with a knee lol).

Peach can float, dair-> nair->uair at low percents, try pivot grabbing that haha.

 

[Shiri]

WHATCHU WANT

Oh, right. Peach v. Yoshi.

Well, this matchup plays out pretty similarly to Melee for Peach. The nerfed downsmash actually helps her case here since Yoshi could get away with CC and rolling techs against it before, but now, it pops him just high enough and sends him backwards so that he cannot aerial her in retaliation and Peach is in a spot to either downsmash again, use her buffed grab or dash grab, or use one of her buffed tilts. The float game messes with Yoshi pretty badly and Peach's forward air is still pretty good, although it isn't a top tier move like it was in Melee. If Yoshi tries anything on the ground that's not a jab or down tilt, Peach slaps the mess out of it and forward smash is a pretty good spacer on aerials in general, and not just Yoshi's.

She's kinda hardish to edgeguard. I know that I, for one, always abuse the Parasol when I'm recovering and it's kinda really hard to stop from the top and I haven't had much success as Yoshi beating out her recovery from the sides, so you have to go for early edgeguards and force her to either use it early and miss the edge or have her hesitate and put her in a precarious position.

As for Yoshi, his aerials are beaten out sometimes by pivot forward smash (yup, JUST LIKE MELEE). Grabs are good, just don't try to follow them up too much unless you can really space an up aerial. Try to bait missed grabs and poorly spaced float aerials. Her new ground game really took away a lot of her blind spots, so you're going to be relying mainly on capitalizing on mistakes instead of creating your own opportunities.

For Yoshi, this matchup isn't so much about beating Peach as it is trying to put her in places where doing what she wants is either difficult, risky, or not very rewarding.

 

[Defender]

Were talking about if it were to the best of the characters ability. All you need to do is just learn the timing, and it shouldn't be that hard. He can just Grab, and Grab, and Grab, and Grab, and Grab, and Grab until he's dead

OK, if that's the reasoning, I guess I agree with it.

 

[Kiwikomix]

What I can tell so far about the Peach matchup is that she really shuts him down... all the great aspects of his game are often shut down. I would say 4:6 Peach's favor at least.
And if I might say so, this whole burntsocks/hugglebunny thing is **** confusing.

 

[Mmac]

I don't think she shuts him down at all, but I agree on a 4:6

 

[Deleted member]

Lolz, HB is my friend, i was at his house and he forgot his password so i couldnt log out and go onto mine xD

Also, i agree with shiri/kiwi. Id say 35-65.

 

[EggZavier]

Yoshi's good against captainfalcon?