Yoshi in Ultimate Information Thread (WIP)

[Delta-cod]

Yikarur, destroyer of dreams.

 

[Ssb_OverEazy]

I wouldn't necessarily say Yoshis heavy armor got buffed. It behaves differently now. This could get you killed at higher percent because you're not flying anywhere and then fall to your death. And you don't tank a 180% fsmash and receive no knockback. This is not true. A fsmash at 180 will still kill you.

In my opinion, heavy armor got heavily nerfed. It's duration used to be frame 1-69. You could fall after your double jump and tank hits and retaliate with an aerial while falling. This is not possible anymore. Yoshis Armor is now frame 1-44, you don't have armor while falling anymore and this was the best use for it.




Dthrow Upair is not true with correct DI. Not even close.



It does not autocancel. Short Hop Dair has 17 frames of landing lag.



Ftilt can work as well. But it's a very precise input but it's very important to do dsmashes out of jab1.
This is only for the close hitbox btw



This worked in Smash 4 already. The move is about the same tbh



Short Hop Dair does not autocancel.


It's probably the same + Ending lag is identical to Smash 4




Yoshis fsmash range got nerfed and the invincible nose is about the same



Pivot Grab is really slow now. Pivot Grab grabs frame 17. It was frame 10 in Smash 4. It has less lag in Ultimate but I wouldn't call it "very safe" tbh but I couldn't have been worse than Smash 4 haha

Yikarur, in your experience with this game this far, what can you validate as being true from Yoshster's assessment? And even if nothing comes out of it, thank you Yoshster for the effort put in!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Kill confirms? Safe moves? Swole boy DJ armor? This is a dream com--



View attachment 180999

wut da fug, why aren't you on discord sometimes at least mang.
Been making a doc with all the accurate changes so far.

Post about everything wrong with article here

Funny, I went onto this post too for being fairly inaccurate.
Though of course as things started getting dug up/datamined the last week almost since this post even some of the stuff I've said is outdated now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._and_everything_ive_tested/eamdrrq/?context=0

Also on the armor, I'm sad for the nerf. Noticed in a lot of the early Spain vids that Yoshi was getting hit during DJ while falling so my best guess was the apex of DJ is when the armor ends. Gonna be sad not being able to tank hits while falling now.

 

[Delta-cod]

lso on the armor, I'm sad for the nerf. Noticed in a lot of the early Spain vids that Yoshi was getting hit during DJ while falling so my best guess was the apex of DJ is when the armor ends. Gonna be sad not being able to tank hits while falling now.

DJ change is definitely a nerf -- even not going anywhere after getting it broken is negative. I anticipate a lot of sadboy gimps where we get hit barely past the KB thereshold and die because we didn't have a chance to get launched upwards and away in order to drift back. This happens in 64 and Melee quite a bit, and it always looks really sad. =/

wut da fug, why aren't you on discord sometimes at least mang.
Been making a doc with all the accurate changes so far.

To be honest, and I held this viewpoint during the Brawl era too, tracking all the very precise nitty gritty of the game is not meaningful to me and I don't find most of it to be practically applicable (kill confirms, for example, being a very notable exception). Studying character interactions and strategies surrounding the phases of the game for each character is much more generally useful, and will be best done when we all have the game in our hands (although the nitty gritty does inform this discussion somewhat). The emphasis of conversation is evidenced by the majority of discussion and research being done into frame data, Autocancel windows, etc. right now, rather than there being discussion about appropriate strategies to use in specific scenarios or against certain characters' neutrals. Alternatively, if this discussion does exist, it's being hidden away on Discord which is a shame. :^)

So, apologies for buying into some outdated/incorrect hype. I will continue to rely on experience and verified sources in the future.

As for why I'm not on Discord so much -- keeping up with a bunch of different channels is kind of annoying. And dropping in periodically to read a gazillion (exaggeration, I just scrolled through a bunch of the discord channel threads and they aren't obscenely active) discord messages is not an efficient way to gather information (which is why catalogs and forums are so nice.) I looked for easy access to this doc you mentioned, and maybe I'm just not Discord-savvy enough to find it easily, but having to click through a bunch of different channels and then clicking on the pin to hopefully find the document makes the information hidden away in nested menus, which sucks. Furthermore, outside of the time when there are new pinned posts, there is no indication that any channel actually has pinned messages (at least, that I can find). Discord feels like something I must constantly be up to date with, lest things become lost in the chaos. It's really annoying to deal with this when I have a schedule that keeps me from constantly checking the chats (not that I'd want to be beholden to such a thing anyways).

 

[Lukingordex]

Things are looking pretty bad for Yoshi right now tbh

Bonus:
https://twitter.com/KYtheYoshi/status/1069356231205171200?s=19

 

[Pixel_]

Bonus:
https://twitter.com/KYtheYoshi/status/1069356231205171200?s=19

afaik range was nerfed in the front but buffed in the back, so I would think of it as repurposed rather than nerfed (though with the removal of perfect pivoting I'm not sure if it'd be harder to land it).
Weird considering the animation, though...

 

[Yikarur]

You can just do turnarround uptilt out of run. You don't need perfect pivot.
And you can always input a reverse uptilt with the c-stick now (really precise input)

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be honest, and I held this viewpoint during the Brawl era too, tracking all the very precise nitty gritty of the game is not meaningful to me and I don't find most of it to be practically applicable (kill confirms, for example, being a very notable exception).

Understandable, some frame data I find useful like at least knowing moves that's single digit for when they come out or landing lag if any, since every character universally got minor or massive landing lag buffs, Yoshi was a bit inbetween with single digits for Nair Uair now.

Studying character interactions and strategies surrounding the phases of the game for each character is much more generally useful, and will be best done when we all have the game in our hands (although the nitty gritty does inform this discussion somewhat). The emphasis of conversation is evidenced by the majority of discussion and research being done into frame data, Autocancel windows, etc. right now, rather than there being discussion about appropriate strategies to use in specific scenarios or against certain characters' neutrals. Alternatively, if this discussion does exist, it's being hidden away on Discord which is a shame. :^)

It doesn't exist, mostly just a handful (and I do mean handful, like 3 or 4 yoshi's only) are playing the cracked game and mostly doing 1v1s while awkwardly stuck playing as Smash 4 Yoshi playstyle. Will of course take a good while before we all break the muscle memory habits and adjust to things like Bair and Ftilt being our best moves now.

Hell even egg roll doing 10+% with 0 ramp up is almost a viable option now. 25% from 2 hits of egg roll a realistic thing now.

So, apologies for buying into some outdated/incorrect hype. I will continue to rely on experience and verified sources in the future.

No worries, wasn't really getting on your tail (no pun intended) just joking around.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U3SGk-6TwU5etHe_QmjRyoVS05hOPdE0hBbx5NfWeNw/edit?usp=sharing

As for why I'm not on Discord so much -- keeping up with a bunch of different channels is kind of annoying. And dropping in periodically to read a gazillion (exaggeration, I just scrolled through a bunch of the discord channel threads and they aren't obscenely active)

I never liked the idea of a super public and advertised everywhere server to the point a place would have over 500-2k members. I've always wanted a small tight knit group, even passing 300 wouldn't be a big deal cause most likely over 200 of em will be inactive/lurkers.
So with that in mind, channels wouldn't be very active, but if you think too many are getting posts that you don't care for you could mute them so the thing on the side has no little blip showing you missed messages.

discord messages is not an efficient way to gather information (which is why catalogs and forums are so nice.) I looked for easy access to this doc you mentioned, and maybe I'm just not Discord-savvy enough to find it easily, but having to click through a bunch of different channels and then clicking on the pin to hopefully find the document makes the information hidden away in nested menus, which sucks. Furthermore, outside of the time when there are new pinned posts, there is no indication that any channel actually has pinned messages (at least, that I can find). Discord feels like something I must constantly be up to date with, lest things become lost in the chaos. It's really annoying to deal with this when I have a schedule that keeps me from constantly checking the chats (not that I'd want to be beholden to such a thing anyways).

I completely agree that Discord messages or discord in general is not a good place to archive. I've preached this enough. The doc was just super last minute because, I mean, the game got into people's hands 2 weeks before initial release due to Mexico lol.
I planned to make Smashboards threads with all the info once the game was out and I began projects but again the doc was last minute and I just tried to grab as much info as possible once people were getting the game -14 days before release date.

As for discord, the thumbtack on the channel has a red dot if you missed a pinned post. Although I've already noticed during smash 4 it's not really a good indicator for when something truly important is pinned cause it's not like an @everyone to tell people it's pinned happens unless you manually do the tag. To circumvent this I just make an entirely different channel that regular members can't type in except mods/admins and post important info or links in. I haven't gone around to making that cause again the game isn't out yet to really need that since everything is just word of mouth outside of Yika doing the actual frame by frame stuff.

The server itself is also still kind of in a beta state, I'll be fixing around channels and stuff once the game is out. Plus it'll be a lot more active and things getting done once Wall and I have the game for sure. Or even new players that's more into datamining than playing.
Yika has been doing some vids as well here or there.

 

[Lukingordex]

Honestly, I feel like his grabs are even worse this time around. The range is just terrible and because of that you can't use it anymore to punish people landing at a mid-range distance from you. And even worse than that is the fact that egg lay also has ****ty range now. Did they think yoshi's tongue was broken or something?

Extremely disapointed with this character for now and seriously considering droping him this time around.

 

[meleebrawler]

Honestly, I feel like his grabs are even worse this time around. The range is just terrible and because of that you can't use it anymore to punish people landing at a mid-range distance from you. And even worse than that is the fact that egg lay also has ****ty range now. Did they think yoshi's tongue was broken or something?

Extremely disapointed with this character for now and seriously considering droping him this time around.

Why so focused on his grabs of all things? At this point I feel it's a deliberate balancing factor to have a weak grab game in favour of insane airspeed, strong attacks and good weight.

 

[Lukingordex]

We'll see. I didn't gave up on him yet. I'm just not optimistic

 

[Zinith]

Why so focused on his grabs of all things? At this point I feel it's a deliberate balancing factor to have a weak grab game in favour of insane airspeed, strong attacks and good weight.

In Smash 4, his weak grab mattered as the meta was focused around grabs. Here? I'm not sure...

 

[Luigifan18]

Why so focused on his grabs of all things? At this point I feel it's a deliberate balancing factor to have a weak grab game in favour of insane airspeed, strong attacks and good weight.

I'm pretty sure the grab game of every non-tether-grabber was weakened in Ultimate; Sakurai must have gotten sick of the complaints that tether grabs were "useless".

 

[Zinith]

I'm pretty sure the grab game of every non-tether-grabber was weakened in Ultimate; Sakurai must have gotten sick of the complaints that tether grabs were "useless".

I should note that Yoshi is a tether grabber as well...

 

[meleebrawler]

In Smash 4, his weak grab mattered as the meta was focused around grabs. Here? I'm not sure...

The reworked perfect shield mechanic should make shield pressure for Yoshi much easier as long as he isn't predictable (and I'm curious to see what happens with dair in that situation).

I should note that Yoshi is a tether grabber as well...

Not really, he doesn't have a zair. Olimar neither. They're kind of an intermediary. But like I said before, Yoshi's grabs and throws have been consistently weak in all Smash games, so it's likely meant to be a trade-off for his other advantages.

 

[Yoshi_smash]

Does Yoshi have full super armor during the ground pound (down+B) in Ultimate? In Smash 4, Yoshi's ground pound not having super armor was a major vulnerability (meaning any ground pound that misses in Smash 4 can be punished with a counterattack).

 

[Zinith]

Does Yoshi have full super armor during the ground pound (down+B) in Ultimate? In Smash 4, Yoshi's ground pound not having super armor was a major vulnerability (meaning any ground pound that misses in Smash 4 can be punished with a counterattack).

No. Yoshi doesn't have armor on Down B still. And yes, I was peeved when I found out the small clip that may have shown that he had ACTUALLY confirmed that it was CAPTAIN FALCON'S Side B having armor. Thanks Sakurai...

But it really isn't the end all be all as it seems like Yoshi has better tools at his disposal than he has before...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi didn't have armor in either game.

 

[Ostro]

I'm surprised that no one is talking about how to get the most out of Yoshi's Bair kill combos. I put together a quick clip if anyone hasn't seen some of them. Landing two hits of Bair is rough on faster characters, but Yoshi might actually have a solid win condition now. If the game isn't focused on grabs like 4 was, we should get more use out of Yoshi's good frame data.

Also, do we have frame data on Yoshi's shield grab compared to 4? Grabbing out of shield feels pretty snappy in Ultimate, but that's could just be me. A 660k GSP Palutena has been shredding my rushdown plays, but falling back on shield grabs was actually making up for it. I can't remember a time in 4 when I've been able to win like that, but, again, that could be me being bad.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not the right thread to be talking about combos, but yeah it's really good since the first two hits of Bair sets up into smashes or Utilts.

 

[Zinith]

Not the right thread to be talking about combos, but yeah it's really good since the first two hits of Bair sets up into smashes or Utilts.

Should there be a combo thread for Yoshi then? There currently isn't one...

 

[Ostro]

It would probably be a good idea. We should start searching for any useful combos we can get, true or not.

 

[Yikarur]

Updated the thread with even more information!

 

[Yoshi_smash]

It's probably too early to know, but when Ultimate has been played for several months (~ Feb or Mar 2019) it would be interesting to have an Ultimate Yoshi Match-Up chart, showing how good Yoshi is against every character in the game (though, it would not be complete until all DLC characters are revealed, which will probably be sometime in 2020).

 

[Angani]

With dtilt damage being noted as (Base Damage: 4% / 4.5% / 5%), what's being indicated here? I noticed that the tip of the tail has less knockback, but is damage different depending on area of tail or is it something else?

 

[Yikarur]

With dtilt damage being noted as (Base Damage: 4% / 4.5% / 5%), what's being indicated here? I noticed that the tip of the tail has less knockback, but is damage different depending on area of tail or is it something else?

Yoshis dtilt has 3 hitboxes in that order. I think I'll switch the numbers to indicate that the first number is the closest hitbox to Yoshi.

 

[Sharky]

Some quick testing on the IC stage confirms that yoshi bomb does still slide on slopes, but they must have greatly upped the friction on it to the point that it will be negligible on any likely tournament legal stages.

Edit: it also hurts a lot that we don't slide off of surfaces anymore =(

 

[Terotrous]

Really not digging the change to aerial UpB. If done out of a short hop it now sends you insanely high, making short hop eggs almost useless unless thrown on the way down rather than on the way up. Grounded egg is better due to the bounce but it's much less safe compared to short hop egg, I feel like this is a big hit to his neutral overall.

Also, I think Down Throw Up Air is actually a true combo on fast fallers at low percents. I don't think it's ever guaranteed on floaties.

 

[Taïï]

Hi, i don't know if you guys reported that already but it is still possible to do down b and analog stick up under the ledge to do the weird teleport, isn't a revolution but still cool to know
And since you don't need to face the ledge anymore it works in this case too

 

[ElMoro995]

Really not digging the change to aerial UpB. If done out of a short hop it now sends you insanely high, making short hop eggs almost useless unless thrown on the way down rather than on the way up. Grounded egg is better due to the bounce but it's much less safe compared to short hop egg, I feel like this is a big hit to his neutral overall.

Also, I think Down Throw Up Air is actually a true combo on fast fallers at low percents. I don't think it's ever guaranteed on floaties.

And now yoshi can't juggle or frametrap with eggs anymore, I've seen a lot of aerials breaking my eggs when in s4 they would have hit the opponent. I don't think I like yoshi anymore in this game, the best confirms are off of falling aerials which are hard to land because he is floaty. The best new thing to me is that jab1 locks now, I've killed a lot with dtilt jablock fsmash

 

[Sinister Slush]

While eggs having less priority or range (not sure which) sucks cause I've definitely noticed more moves beating it without them trading. I still find myself getting frame traps with eggs, forcing airdodges or getting usual setups just fine.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi's new ftilt is nice, it combos into utilt at low percents, though I think it has slightly less range compared to smash 4. Still, you can pivot boost it for a decent running option that I think is usually superior to dash attack. Run up dtilt is also a solid poke. I think overall, Yoshi has better rushdown but worse zoning, which is probably going to make for better matchups vs zoners but worse vs swordies.

 

[Lukingordex]

What are Yoshi's options against people that shield a lot in neutral?

 

[Terotrous]

Grab, neutral B, down B for shield break if their shield health is low.

 

[IngoLingo]

Here is a thing that I have noticed with Yoshi. When the egg lay move connects and you send your opponent off the edge, they cannot move the egg back onto the stage. But in the other smash games the opponent was still able to move the egg, in the air.

This cause some easy KOs if you're opponent can't mash out of the egg fast enough.

 

[PlasmicOcean]

Small mistake in the frame data btw Yikarur, Fair has 12 frames of landing lag not 13 (tested the active frames as well btw, 16-20, same as in 4).

 

[Yikarur]

I remember it being 12 as well. Must be a typo.
I double checked and corrected it. Thank you

 

[Kadji100]

Has Yoshis fsmash range been nerfed? It feels like the range was better in smash 4 than it is in ultimate.
Other than that and the lack of a safe grab into kill comfirm I realy like Yoshi in Ultimate.

 

[Yikarur]

everything in the OP

 

[Goldfire35]

I can say being a Yoshi main in this game he is a bit underrated. Most of the points made are very true indeed. His combos are there but whenever I want to throw out a forward air I can never angle it downward to meteor instead of hitting my opponent forward thus allowing him to recover which may lead to me losing a stock.

Someone help out a Yoshi main here.

His Up-air is broken I will agree and I only have had the game for two weeks.