Yoshi, a Recovery story.

[\Apples]

I have yet to be able to "tank" any of Ganon's aerials when recovering with Yoshi.

You should be tanking while you're on stage so that you don't have to recover.

 

[210stuna]

tap jumping wasn't in Melee, right?

 

[Sashimi]

Yes, it was (and you couldn't turn it off). I find it really easy to accidentally tap jump when throwing eggs, so I have to be pretty careful about it.

 

[210stuna]

I'll take it off then, It usually gets in the way for me when using Jiggs too.

 

[deadjames]

Tap-jump is actually extremely useful for Yoshi in P:M because he can usmash OoS now.

 

[210stuna]

I thought tap jump was the act of moving your control stick up causing you to jump?

I can still click Y/X to attack OoS.....I don't see a problem here.

 

[deadjames]

I thought tap jump was the act of moving your control stick up causing you to jump?

I can still click Y/X to attack OoS.....I don't see a problem here.

You can attack out of shield sure, but doing an usmash OoS is incredibly difficult without tap jump. All you have to do with tap jump on is hit up on both sticks while in shield, it's a great punish for any miss-spaced attacks against Yoshi's shield.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

tap jump simplifies some inputs, and complicates others. It's just a matter of preference.

 

[\Apples]

Yep. So the trade-off is losing two OOS options for technical consistency.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I dunno that you necessarily sacrifice options. I use tap jump, personally, but I have to imagine that usmash oos is still possible without it. I don't see why it wouldn't be, you just have more buttons to push.

 

[deadjames]

I dunno that you necessarily sacrifice options. I use tap jump, personally, but I have to imagine that usmash oos is still possible without it. I don't see why it wouldn't be, you just have more buttons to push.

It's possible, but it's ridiculously hard, and depending on which character you play you do in fact sacrifice options, like Ike for example, jump cancelling an usmash out of quick draw is impossible without tap jump, unless you have three hands or can somehow play with one of your feet.

 

[Kurayamiblack]

I'm new here and it's my first post, but I just came to put my 2 cents in on the Recovery subject.

I think Yoshi's recovery is very hard to get used to after mastering what it once was in vBrawl (I personally Played a modded Brawl+ with Special Brawl "Heavy" mode active but still). The lift you get from the up special became a strong habit that's difficult to break.I sorta got over it but I still have one major gripe with Yoshi's recovery. He cannot grab ledge at the peak of his air dodge.If this 1 thing was fixed, I think everything else is just fine the way it is.

I'm a little on the fence about fixing it though. On one hand, I understand Yoshi is a character that pwns hard on-stage and struggles recovering. I totally respect that from a balance perspective. But from a vBrawl playstyle perspective I find most of Yoshi's best finishers come from his ability to chase off the stage without screwing himself over on the return trip. It's pretty difficult to get used to seeing that golden opportunity and choosing to pass it up because you know you won't make it back up without airdodging and you'll lose half the air you gain from it before being able to grab the ledge. Seriously, I've literally had half my body over the ledge with my belly grinding the upper corner of Final Destination and still fell right past it and died.

I don't know if fixing this kink is a good idea or not for the game as a whole, but if some kind of recovery buff is to be made, I think grabbing the ledges at the peak of an air dodge is the best approach.

 

[Sashimi]

Yoshi can totally go offstage for the kill. His double jump gets really good distance, especially since you can now do rising DJCs. You just have to know how far you can go offstage. If the opponent is too low/far for you to hit them, you can wait and edgeguard them as they return to the stage, or they're too far to recover anyway.

 

[210stuna]

Throw eggs to gimp

 

[internetmovieguy]

nLiM8d
Thank you for saying the things i have not said
I am sorry for not helping out sooner

Its been said many times that yoshi's lack luster recovery is all part of his character
Why? There needs to be a reason (other than that's how it was in melee)

DK's strength is that he can combo very well, his weakness is that he himself is easily combo-ed.
Peach is bad at approaching but she has creative ways to help her with that, an amazing recovery, and is a very good defensive character.
and of course
Falco. Bad recovery (however, his side b allows him to recover if he is only slightly knocked off stage) but AMAZING onstage game.
What is yoshi's excuse for a one-shot recovery?

What i have been hearing is that he is more like Falco. You can't say that yet. Lets wait for his meta game (both for and against yoshi) to be better established.
IF it turns out that yoshi is AMAZING on stage than i can understand the poor recovery.

PS: on a unrelated note I was wondering why yoshi can't jump out of a grounded down b like bowser.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

nLiM8d
Thank you for saying the things i have not said
I am sorry for not helping out sooner

Its been said many times that yoshi's lack luster recovery is all part of his character
Why? There needs to be a reason (other than that's how it was in melee)

DK's strength is that he can combo very well, his weakness is that he himself is easily combo-ed.
Peach is bad at approaching but she has creative ways to help her with that, an amazing recovery, and is a very good defensive character.
and of course
Falco. Bad recovery (however, his side b allows him to recover if he is only slightly knocked off stage) but AMAZING onstage game.
What is yoshi's excuse for a one-shot recovery?

What i have been hearing is that he is more like Falco. You can't say that yet. Lets wait for his meta game (both for and against yoshi) to be better established.
IF it turns out that yoshi is AMAZING on stage than i can understand the poor recovery.

PS: on a unrelated note I was wondering why yoshi can't jump out of a grounded down b like bowser.

Yoshi doesn't need to be able to jump out of grounded B, it wouldn't really add anything to his game like it can with Bowser. One thing I wouldn't mind seeing Yoshi able to do though, would be grabbing the ledge after a grounded down B off the side like Bowser can. It's not really necessary to my enjoyment of this wonderful lil dino, but it would be interesting.

 

[meow]

It's possible, but it's ridiculously hard, and depending on which character you play you do in fact sacrifice options, like Ike for example, jump cancelling an usmash out of quick draw is impossible without tap jump, unless you have three hands or can somehow play with one of your feet.

Poppin' in real quick to correct you. I have tap jump off and set R to Jump. All I do to OOS Up Smash is R+C-Stick Up. For Up+B OOS, I press R+ Up+B.

 

[EIiitti]

It's possible, but it's ridiculously hard, and depending on which character you play you do in fact sacrifice options, like Ike for example, jump cancelling an usmash out of quick draw is impossible without tap jump, unless you have three hands or can somehow play with one of your feet.

All this talk about OoS U-smashes and stuff being impossible without tap-jump. Just use the claw grip for that stuff and you can do any OoS option in the game reliably, without tap-jump. Right index finger on Y/X and right thumb on C-stick/B. Easy as pie. DJC with just Y is tougher with characters like Lucas, but it's nothing impossible. (I main Lucas, Ike, Lucario and ZSS without tap jump.)

 

[deadjames]

All this talk about OoS U-smashes and stuff being impossible without tap-jump. Just use the claw grip for that stuff and you can do any OoS option in the game reliably, without tap-jump. Right index finger on Y/X and right thumb on C-stick/B. Easy as pie. DJC with just Y is tougher with characters like Lucas, but it's nothing impossible. (I main Lucas, Ike, Lucario and ZSS without tap jump.)

I used to main Bowser and his up-b OoS was insanely hard without tap jump, also I don't see how Y makes DJC's harder, I main Peach now and I use Y for all my DJC's, in fact I still use Y for all my jumping tap-jump is only one for ATs.

 

[Sashimi]

How is Yoshi's recovery "one-shot?" If you have your double jump and you're below 100%, you're almost guaranteed to get back onstage, and if you don't have your double jump, it's because you were doing something unsafe. Learn when to use your double jump and you won't have any problems.

 

[EIiitti]

I used to main Bowser and his up-b OoS was insanely hard without tap jump, also I don't see how Y makes DJC's harder, I main Peach now and I use Y for all my DJC's, in fact I still use Y for all my jumping tap-jump is only one for ATs.

Well, to clear some confusion, I use B for Jump and X for Special. OoS Specials I do with Y -> X. Also I'm specifically talking about Lucas's DJC, which has to be done much quicker than with any other character so doing it with just one button instead of tap jump + a button is clearly more difficult. It's still manageable but it's hard to do regularly (at least for me) in matches.

 

[internetmovieguy]

How is Yoshi's recovery "one-shot?" If you have your double jump and you're below 100%, you're almost guaranteed to get back onstage, and if you don't have your double jump, it's because you were doing something unsafe. Learn when to use your double jump and you won't have any problems.

Its all about gimping Yoshi, it's just too easy.
If Falco is knocked about of his up-b trying to recover he might still have a shot at recovering if he is knocked back only a tiny bit.
If the same thing happens to Yoshi's double jump he is dead regardless of how far he is knocked back (unless it's well above the stage). This is because he does not get a second chance (one-shot recovery) to recover where any other character would at least have a chance.


Another idea could be to give Yoshi a third jump that is <= a brawl egg hop.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Its all about gimping Yoshi, it's just too easy.
If Falco is knocked about of his up-b trying to recover he might still have a shot at recovering if he is knocked back only a tiny bit.
If the same thing happens to Yoshi's double jump he is dead regardless of how far he is knocked back (unless it's well above the stage). This is because he does not get a second chance (one-shot recovery) to recover where any other character would at least have a chance.


Another idea could be to give Yoshi a third jump that is <= a brawl egg hop.

Have you played Yoshi in PM yet? He can recover with his sideb pretty reliably, just don't recover so low when ur % is high enough to get knocked out of ur jump.

 

[Sashimi]

Its all about gimping Yoshi, it's just too easy.

Except it's not easy if the Yoshi player doesn't do unsafe things. There are only two instances in which you lose your recovery:

Getting hit while recovering low at high % (in which case you've done things already and your stock hasn't been wasted)
Getting hit out of a DJC (in which case you chose an unsafe time to DJC)

 

[RomeDogg]

I think that up-b brawl boost should stay gone because as said it screws up the eggsecution in his aerial egg game. Though after he uses an aerial side-b I do think they should let him use his second jump if he hadn't used it yet. Also ridiculously strong armor on his double jump would be dope, like dame near invincible invulnerability. So at least the first change would be satisfying. The second I mentioned is just extra. After those changes I would think his recovery would need no further tweaks.

 

[RomeDogg]

Oh or if his boost from Brawls aerial up-B is so important they could somehow make Yoshi's Up-B like an aerial glide toss that would make up for it. Like if you hit up-b and shield and get the boost it would be as if they never took his brawl boost thing out. Also going a bout it that way wouldn't alter his aerial egg game.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The thing with Egg roll is you lose your DJ if you don't bounce once off a platform or even the ground so you need to think carefully on how you're throwing out his new egg roll.
Also his recovery is fine, just need to play enough matches to learn what his DJ can eat below 80%, no not 100% as someone said earlier, under 80%

 

[Tintinytdj]

Sorry for just throwing random suggestions in here, but how about letting Yoshi's double jump have rules similiar to a recovery?
As in, it's replenished when you're hit and it's gone when you use it or another recovery or your airdodge?

Speaking of airdodge, it'd really help if you could hold the jump button to make it behave like brawl's airdodge so it doesn't kill your upward momentum, much like you can do with most other moves Yoshi has at the moment.
Speaking of which, why not make all moves consistent with the "hold X to not lose jump momentum" rule?

Point is, Yoshi has some weird stuff but please keep in mind that he should not become too good.
Yoshi has been low-tier for a while now so I understand why everyone's trying to (over)fix him.
He is mostly fine, apart from the fact that his eggs vanish whenever he loses a stock (prettty sure they should do a fizzle animation).

 

[RomeDogg]

I don't know if your joking but if he replenished his second jump every time he got hit in the air then he would be broken and escape certain combos easily.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Which would make up immensely for that no actual Up B recovery thing, lol.
I mean, if Snake can keep getting his Up B back whenever he gets hit from both Brawl and P:M, dunno about P:M, but Snake's heavy armor is almost the same as Yoshi's Super Armor, why can't Yoshi get his DJ back in P:M at least?

Cause saying "getting out of certain combos easily" doesn't matter cause both Yoshi and Snake, well I mean Snake, continue getting their asses comboed regardless of using their recovery or not cause they're basically Combo Video material when they get off the stage against say Marth regardless of having constant UpB. (talking about brawl for this one example)

 

[deadjames]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Snake's up-b doesn't have heavy armor.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dunno if P:M changed, but as I said in my post, Brawl.
Snake definitely has Heavy armor in brawl, 7% or higher to knock him out of UpB if I'm correct, I'd check on the snake boards but cause of all the smashboards changes, using I think spoilers that weren't changed in the past few months makes most of the words go into the abyss.

Edit: I actually think it's when using a quote box is when words fall into the darkness.

 

[deadjames]

Well Idc about Brawl so I probably won't look it up.

 

[Dillo64]

what you guys' opinion on Yoshi getting a short-ranged Zair and using his tongue to tether recover like in Mario Galaxy? Impossible/possible? Too good/not good enough?

Seriously I can't be the only person to think of this right? I've been wanting that since Melee. Easy way to solve some recovery discrepancies without changing his other moves.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well Idc about Brawl so I probably won't look it up.

>joined in 2013 and doesn't care about brawl
Ok that explains things now.

what you guys' opinion on Yoshi getting a short-ranged Zair and using his tongue to tether recover like in Mario Galaxy? Impossible/possible? Too good/not good enough?

Seriously I can't be the only person to think of this right? I've been wanting that since Melee. Easy way to solve some recovery discrepancies without changing his other moves.

I'm sure you're not the only one who's thought of this, especially since the idea of using the tongue for a Zair/tether recovery has been brought up multiple times in the Yoshi Smash 4 thread hopefully.
I mean, he's had the whole use Tongue to latch onto things since Yoshi's Story so why not possibly add it in Smash 4 since Yoshi's Yarn looks like a sequel and most likely gonna add that feature again. Along with him prolly getting revealed when either that game or Yoshi's New Island is released since Smash 4 releasing characters based on games for them being released for special events.

 

[Sashimi]

It makes sense from a character point of view for Yoshi to have a Zair, but in terms of balance, I don't think giving Yoshi more options is a good idea. He's already a monster onstage. Lots of people are saying he's one of the best in the game (and I'm inclined to agree).

Smash 4, on the other hand... get on it, Sakurai!

 

[deadjames]

>joined in 2013 and doesn't care about brawl
Ok that explains things now.

>doesn't understand the concept of correlations because there isn't one between those two things.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

hmm nvm then

 

[RomeDogg]

It makes sense from a character point of view for Yoshi to have a Zair, but in terms of balance, I don't think giving Yoshi more options is a good idea. He's already a monster onstage.

I agree. I realized this after playing vs Yoshi for several matches. So scratch my previous ideas I posted, Yoshi definitely does not need a better recovery.

 

[nLiM8d]

hmm nvm then

Whats up?