Yoshi, a Recovery story.

[tripwire]

Yoshi doesn't need to be able to jump out of grounded B, it wouldn't really add anything to his game like it can with Bowser. One thing I wouldn't mind seeing Yoshi able to do though, would be grabbing the ledge after a grounded down B off the side like Bowser can. It's not really necessary to my enjoyment of this wonderful lil dino, but it would be interesting.

Idk if this got answered but Yoshi can also grab the ledge with down-b, to my surprise.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Idk if this got answered but Yoshi can also grab the ledge with down-b, to my surprise.

Yeah, but he can't do it the same way that Bowser can. I think it's because his attack actually has him facing a direction instead of facing the players.

 

[tripwire]

Right I see what you are saying.

 

[Ryusuta]

I was a dedicated Yoshi main in vanilla, but in spite of all of the needed buffers, I just HATE Yoshi now. And there is only one single reason: Egg Toss no longer extends his jump. Honestly, jumping out of shield and more kill moves don't make up for destroying his already bad recovery. I would seriously take vanilla Yoshi with the knockback buffs (even with the bad shield) if I could just bring back those aerial stalls.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I was a dedicated Yoshi main in vanilla, but in spite of all of the needed buffers, I just HATE Yoshi now. And there is only one single reason: Egg Toss no longer extends his jump. Honestly, jumping out of shield and more kill moves don't make up for destroying his already bad recovery. I would seriously take vanilla Yoshi with the knockback buffs (even with the bad shield) if I could just bring back those aerial stalls.

You mean vanilla brawl? Yoshi's recovery was too good in brawl. This isn't Brawl Yoshi, it's Melee Yoshi that's been tweaked. Not only would Brawl Yoshi not fit into the overall design goals of Project M, he'd also be a really terrible character.

 

[Ryusuta]

You mean vanilla brawl? Yoshi's recovery was too good in brawl. This isn't Brawl Yoshi, it's Melee Yoshi that's been tweaked. Not only would Brawl Yoshi not fit into the overall design goals of Project M, he'd also be a really terrible character.

How would having advanced recovery options outside of "second jump and hope for the best" go against the design of Project M? That's ridiculous.

And apart from that, this is seriously the first I've ever heard of ANYTHING about Brawl Yoshi being "too good."

 

[#HBC | Joker]

clearly you have not actually played PM Yoshi then. Trying using his sideb to recover sometime.

His Brawl upb would give him, ya know, infinite jumps. That's not something anyone else has. That jump also interferes with other tricks involving yoshi's egg toss.

 

[Sashimi]

How would having advanced recovery options outside of "second jump and hope for the best" go against the design of Project M? That's ridiculous.

Yoshi's current PM recovery is not "second jump and hope for the best." You have several options when recovering:

a) DI up, recover high, use Side B to make sure you land safely
b) DI up, recover high, and if they expect you to use Side B, use Down B instead to grab the ledge
c) With knockback armor that is better than both Melee's AND vBrawl's, double jump and laugh at your opponent when their attempt to edgeguard you fails (of course you can't do this at silly %)
d) Use a rising aerial with Yoshi's eggcellent new hitboxes

I've said it before: Having real recovery mixups is way more valuable than having a linear recovery that gives you slightly better distance. Yoshi's recovery is not worse than vBrawl's.

 

[Sinister Slush]

clearly you have not actually played PM Yoshi then. Trying using his sideb to recover sometime.

His Brawl upb would give him, ya know, infinite jumps. That's not something anyone else has. That jump also interferes with other tricks involving yoshi's egg toss.

You're so wrong it hurts, the person who liked your post should be ashamed too.

Up B does not give him infinite recovery, only 5 and even then the amount of frames it takes before he can do anything else is enough time for the top tier characters like mk marth etc. to punish Yoshi, hell actually just any fast character. Either way, that and the last 2 jumps barely give any air for him so better off just using another move to keep the eventual enemy already jumping at your face away from you by the time you're doing the third egg toss or the end of it.

And don't say infinite Up B while on ledge cause there's a ledge grab limit rule. The Yoshi is not Melee Yoshi, but more of Bastardized 64 Melee Yoshi with floaty as **** side-B for some reason. Or for short version Project:Melee, a mod not a new game.

Also, brawl yoshi's recovery was not too good, the definition of a good recovery is something like... well I don't ****ing know,
Meta Knight?

 

[Strong Badam]

Yoshi's recovery is great in this game lol. The armor is superb against like everyone but Falco.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You're so wrong it hurts, the person who liked your post should be ashamed too.

Up B does not give him infinite recovery, only 5 and even then the amount of frames it takes before he can do anything else is enough time for the top tier characters like mk marth etc. to punish Yoshi, hell actually just any fast character. Either way, that and the last 2 jumps barely give any air for him so better off just using another move to keep the eventual enemy already jumping at your face away from you by the time you're doing the third egg toss or the end of it.

And don't say infinite Up B while on ledge cause there's a ledge grab limit rule. The Yoshi is not Melee Yoshi, but more of *******ized 64 Melee Yoshi with floaty as **** side-B for some reason. Or for short version Project:Melee, a mod not a new game.

Also, brawl yoshi's recovery was not too good, the definition of a good recovery is something like... well I don't ****ing know,
Meta Knight?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Anyone who uses the salt term should be lynched.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Why are you here? You are being so hostile to complete strangers. Go away.

if Yoshi had Brawl upb, he'd be able to upb his way to the stage, saving his DJ (which comes with armor) for getting onstage. That is ridiculous. Having the sideb option (which eats his DJ) instead, is fine. Yea, Brawl Yoshi didn't have the best recovery in Brawl, he probably had one of the worst (which isn't saying much, since practically everyone in Brawl had amazing recovery), but Brawl Yoshi recovery on this Yoshi would be dumb. Other characters with really good recoveries in PM, don't have Yoshi's onstage presence, imo. You could maybe argue MK, but I don't think he's as good onstage.

 

[Sinister Slush]

This is all I bothered reading.

if Yoshi had Brawl upb, he'd be able to upb his way to the stage, saving his DJ (which comes with armor) for getting onstage. That is ridiculous. Having the sideb option (which eats his DJ) instead, is fine.

Even with the Up B recovery in brawl he still had **** recovery, including his Super armor which was still a risky gamble most of the time for us. Changing Side-B a bit to be floaty and help him get to the stage better doesn't help as much as people make it out to be still lol.

but Brawl Yoshi recovery on this Yoshi would be dumb.

No it wouldn't.
You just said it yourself, Up B gone for a "good" Side-B but gets rid of his DJ if used in the air. How is that any good at all? If they bypass his eggroll in the air, which is very very easy might I add even if we can pop out of it quickly, we now have no DJ to get back to the stage if we're hit cause, ya know, Melee hitstun not brawl so "DI'ing up" doesn't help much when. Even if you "DI" up, the process of being smacked away from the stage and egg rolling trying to get back on would continue as the hitstun slowly throws you closer and closer to the blast zone.
He. Has. No. Actual. Up B. Recovery. Like. Other. Normal. Characters.

Not telling the P:M staff to do this, but come on. Open your eyes. You can go horizontal if you DI up, how grand. Now how about vertical for when you get easily punished for using your only recovery, which is being that slow Eggroll.
The eggroll is good on stage cause it's fast and you can easily pop out to Utilt quickly or do anything, it's fine in the air, but mostly everything I've typed so far defines more cons than pros when offstage where everyone is praising this move now.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Why do you need more vertical recovery? Serious question. Lots of other characters don't have recoveries that allow them to survive from everywhere. Some of them do, yea, but that doesn't mean everyone should. PM Yoshi is the strongest Yoshi yet, he doesn't need a better recovery. What he has is pretty goddamn good.

 

[Sinister Slush]

BUFFS UNTIL HE'S TOP TIER TRASH

 

[#HBC | Joker]

He kind of already is top tier. Most people seem to agree that he's at least in top10, or higher.

 

[Nguz95]

BUFFS UNTIL HE'S TOP TIER TRASH

If you're having so much trouble with Yoshi's recovery, I recommend you try a different character. The PMBR is pretty dedicated to his rendition of Yoshi, so the likelihood of his egg toss being changed away from how it was in Melee is small

There are a multitude of other characters with better recoveries than Yoshi; however, if you are interested in Brawl-esque recovery strength then there are only a few. Consider Mewtwo or King DDD if you want to be able to recover from anywhere. Be warned: this game rewards onstage presence more than recovery, so being able to get back from large distances will not necessarily help you as much as you anticipate.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you're having so much trouble with Yoshi's recovery, I recommend you try a different character. The PMBR is pretty dedicated to his rendition of Yoshi, so the likelihood of his egg toss being changed away from how it was in Melee is small

There are a multitude of other characters with better recoveries than Yoshi; however, if you are interested in Brawl-esque recovery strength then there are only a few. Consider Mewtwo or King DDD if you want to be able to recover from anywhere. Be warned: this game rewards onstage presence more than recovery, so being able to get back from large distances will not necessarily help you as much as you anticipate.

It's not that I'm having problems with his recovery, it's the character itself with having a not-so-great recovery.

Also don't tell me to main another character when I want to main Yoshi like I always have.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Falco has a pretty terrible recovery, needs buffs plx

 

[Nguz95]

I simply made a suggestion. Do with it what you will.

 

[Delta-cod]

Forgot where I read it, but spacies actually have decent recoveries simply due to the amount of angles/options they have when using it. While each option is bad individually, you can only cover so much. And at least when they get hit they can try again.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

the spacies recoveries are usually pretty underrated, but they still don't go very far, and are gimped if you read them right. They survive by properly mixing it up, which is something Yoshi can now do better than he could in Brawl.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi had a fine recovery in Brawl. I don't see what everyone's deal was.

 

[Lukingordex]

I've been trying to pick Yoshi in PM, how do your guys exactly use Side B for recovering?

Also, what I need to do be able to throw eggs from the edge with his Up B?

For that discussion about Egg throw, people that used to play yoshi in brawl may feel a little strange while trying to pick him in PM due to the differences, I also felt bad about the return of the UpB without jumps, but after playing for a while I realized that it isn't exactly a bad thing...

If I learn how to combo well with Yoshi and some other things I think he will be the perfect character for me.(or maybe almost perfect if Lucas does prove me that he deserves to continue to be my main).

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Yoshi had a fine recovery in Brawl. I don't see what everyone's deal was.

but yoshi brawl hop messes with egg toss, giving less control over eggs in exchange for breverses. His recovery is fine as it is, it's just different from Brawl, so everyone wants to whine. No matter how they change it, people are gonna *****, and nobody wants to adjust.

*shrug*

I like Yoshi the way he is.

 

[Lukingordex]

but yoshi brawl hop messes with egg toss, giving less control over eggs in exchange for breverses.

Actually in brawl the "hop" yoshi receives with egg toss is great for stage control due to the game's physics.

It wouldn't be that useful with the PM's physics though, so I understand your point.

 

[Dillo64]

but yoshi brawl hop messes with egg toss, giving less control over eggs in exchange for breverses. His recovery is fine as it is, it's just different from Brawl, so everyone wants to whine. No matter how they change it, people are gonna *****, and nobody wants to adjust.

*shrug*

I like Yoshi the way he is.

I've always felt his recovery is bad. Most people I know have always felt his recovery is bad. His bad recovery is why the gave him the hop in the first place. If so many people feel it is bad, too bad for the type of character he is.... I dunno, maybe it's bad? Or is everyone wrong but you?

Do people really consider Yoshi as good as spacies now, to the point where he needs to have bad recovery for balance or something? Did they buff him that much? Aside from the sped-up egg roll, what exactly did they buff so much to put him at top tier status? Or has Yoshi always been this apparent obscenely powerful character who was only being held back by his inability to jump out of his shield?

I will agree I prefer his Melee/PM egg toss, but I still think his recovery needs a boost. I still think giving him a zair/tether would be a good option.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I've always felt his recovery is bad. Most people I know have always felt his recovery is bad. His bad recovery is why the gave him the hop in the first place. If so many people feel it is bad, too bad for the type of character he is.... I dunno, maybe it's bad? Or is everyone wrong but you?

Do people really consider Yoshi as good as spacies now, to the point where he needs to have bad recovery for balance or something? Did they buff him that much? Aside from the sped-up egg roll, what exactly did they buff so much to put him at top tier status? Or has Yoshi always been this apparent obscenely powerful character who was only being held back by his inability to jump out of his shield?

I will agree I prefer his Melee/PM egg toss, but I still think his recovery needs a boost. I still think giving him a zair/tether would be a good option.

First off, go watch the work aMSa did at Apex in Melee, WITHOUT ALL THE PM BUFFS.

Then realize that his egg roll gives him lift, and he has the ability to jump out of shield, and more armor on his double jump.

Then weep. Weep, and rejoice.

 

[Dillo64]

So I'm guessing that's basically a "yes" to my questions....

And I watched plenty of Amsa already, good shiz. But I what I got out of that was just that Amsa is crazy good, not that Yoshi is crazy good or becomes instantly top tier with shield jumps and a little more armor. Who knew?

 

[JOE!]

So I'm guessing that's basically a "yes" to my questions....

And I watched plenty of Amsa already, good shiz. But I what I got out of that was just that Amsa is crazy good, not that Yoshi is crazy good or becomes instantly top tier with shield jumps and a little more armor. Who knew?

Its more like, Yoshi can get to "that level" in melee without these goodies. With the new Utilt improving a strength and the Side B and Shield changes patching weaknesses, he's only gotten better.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

For Yoshi's recovery, what about this?

Yoshi - Aerial Egg Toss can now throw eggs straight down. When this happens, Yoshi gets a very small amount of vertical recovery immediately after he throws the egg downwards. He can only do this once, and it will put him in a special fall state afterwards. Done by holding down (or tapping B twice) when using Aerial Egg Toss.

It wouldn't be much, similar to a Belay (Up B) done by a solo Ice Climber or an aerial neutral B from Olimar; though it might just be enough to save him in certain instances. Plus, this would also give Yoshi the option to throw eggs downwards in the air, which could be useful sometimes.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Honestly all things considered, Yoshi's recovery isn't that bad. Many people just double jump way too early.

 

[Dinowulf]

Honestly all things considered, Yoshi's recovery isn't that bad. Many people just double jump way too early.

In addition to that with Yoshi's ability to EggRoll in the air and cancel at any given time it creates a great recovery by it's self. I can't tell you how many times i've recovered from the stage using the egg roll canceling it while falling to Air dodge and it works 85% of the time.

 

[didds]

Here's my grand idea, what if you could cancel an air dodge into his egg toss? Little extra boost, little extra coverage and mixup, and the ability to grab ledge instead of being stuck in air dodge lag. Of course, I have no idea how viable that would be from a programmer's point of view..

 

[Kankato]

Here's my grand idea, what if you could cancel an air dodge into his egg toss? Little extra boost, little extra coverage and mixup, and the ability to grab ledge instead of being stuck in air dodge lag. Of course, I have no idea how viable that would be from a programmer's point of view..

Um... I'm going to disagree with you. If you could air dodge before egg toss, Yoshi would gain an insane new approach option both on land and in the air. Also, the PMBR would have to implement a helpless state following an aerial egg to avoid some infinite airdodge gimmicks.

Honestly, I think Yoshi is fine as is. His recovery isn't great, but that's not a bad thing. Falco, Sheik, Marth and Wario don't have seller recoveries and they do fine in today's meta because they focus on the neutral/onstage game. Is it really a bad thing to add another name to the list (Especially one with Parrying and Best Shield evar)?

 

[didds]

Um... I'm going to disagree with you. If you could air dodge before egg toss, Yoshi would gain an insane new approach option both on land and in the air. Also, the PMBR would have to implement a helpless state following an aerial egg to avoid some infinite airdodge gimmicks.

Honestly, I think Yoshi is fine as is. His recovery isn't great, but that's not a bad thing. Falco, Sheik, Marth and Wario don't have seller recoveries and they do fine in today's meta because they focus on the neutral/onstage game. Is it really a bad thing to add another name to the list (Especially one with Parrying and Best Shield evar)?

Good points, just a random idea, but now that I think more on it, it would raise more issues than it would solve. Tbh, I don't actually think Yoshi's recovery is that bad, I rarely get gimped. Early deaths are usually due to me throwing out a poor djc attack, and getting hit off without my jump. Even then, I'm more often than not able to recover with good DI, side b, and my air dodge. And with a double jump, the knowledge of the heavy armor is enough to get back with proper mix up involved. Losing to edge guards is not Yoshi's weakness as far as I see it. buuuuut... <50 posts so I guess we'll see how valid my ideas are

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I kill myself by going too deep for edgeguards more often than I actually get gimped myself. Yoshi's recovery aint bad.

 

[Fera]

Um... I'm going to disagree with you. If you could air dodge before egg toss, Yoshi would gain an insane new approach option both on land and in the air(...)

I have to disagree, since egg toss could never be an approach, since it has major wind-up and lag, you can't simply go into someone's face throwing an egg. It's easy to intercept or to answer, what makes the eggs usefull it's their ranged aspect - you nullify their ability to counter-attack you since you're far away. Maybe you're seeing it from a different angle, but I really can't see egg toss as a strong - or even viable - approach option.

-------

As for the dino recovery, how can you see it as bad guys? Except for Ganondorf, with those enormous knocback large hitboxes, I find hard to be stoped from getting back to the stage. Yoshi's Aerial Mobility + Armor + Ground Pound + Egg Roll + Waveland + DJC just gives you so much options, it's hard as hell to cover his mix-ups.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

My only problem with Yoshi's recovery is that if you get hit off stage after using his double jump, unless you're hit up high, you're basically screwed. That's fine though, because his on-stage domination and armor make up for it. But really, I think his recovery is totally fine. His double jump goes really far, so it's easy to just use it to get up high above the stage and just recover with egg roll or Ground pound to latch on to the edge. Rising aerials Are also useful for getting yoshi up there, you don't have to rely on his armor.