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Yoshi, a Recovery story.

internetmovieguy

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Second jump is awesome but come on guys! yoshi needs a recovery!

I recommend replacing his down-b with something that gives him a little extra lift.
OR
How about taking a hint from brawl (Yeah that game) and giving him a little jump with his first egg throw in the air.
 

deadjames

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I agree Yoshi's recovery needs something more, but down-b shouldn't be changed, it's pretty amazing that you can combo into it with jab 1.
 

Kankato

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Can we have characters who are amazing onstage but bad offstage other than Wario and Falco? Over half the cast is incredibly difficult to gimp as is, which detracts from the edge game a little too much...
 

deadjames

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Uhhh so you want the character that can tank a ganon fair to have a better recovery? Yeah how about no lol.
I have yet to be able to "tank" any of Ganon's aerials when recovering with Yoshi.
 

br8k

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I have yet to be able to "tank" any of Ganon's aerials when recovering with Yoshi.
Are you getting hit during your double jump? That's the part with the subtractive armor, I hear.

(I've never played Yoshi in my life. Just browsin different subforums.)
 

MysteryRevengerson

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It's important to do a few things with Yoshi coming back. The most important rule is to conserve your jump, don't use it until you HAVE to. Keeping this rule in mind, you also have SideB for horizontal movement but it will use your second jump in the air, conflicting with rule one. This is as a mix-up and when you're hit up really high and keeps your opponent on their toes.

To be successful you have to use attacks in tandem with your jump and its armor to make it back. Sometimes instead of asking for something better you should get a hang of what you got, especially after not even two days of the game being out. :p
 

Dinowulf

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It's important to do a few things with Yoshi coming back. The most important rule is to conserve your jump, don't use it until you HAVE to. Keeping this rule in mind, you also have SideB for horizontal movement but it will use your second jump in the air, conflicting with rule one. This is as a mix-up and when you're hit up really high and keeps your opponent on their toes.

To be successful you have to use attacks in tandem with your jump and its armor to make it back. Sometimes instead of asking for something better you should get a hang of what you got, especially after not even two days of the game being out. :p
Yoshi's uptail works really well in this case as well as the Eggroll adds a better range in the air overall as well as cancelling with combos (on ground) So yea like Yars said. You got to expirement.
 

nLiM8d

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I have yet to be able to "tank" any of Ganon's aerials when recovering with Yoshi.

@Mr.Pickle
Really, I can't see how that Ganon bit applies. I think the concerns in the opening post are directed towards Yoshi's unnecessary recovery nerf.

Something I intend to restore with PSA.
 

Mr.Pickle

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A made that reference with ganon to demonstrate that his double jump's armor can soak up moves that are high in damage and knockback, and thus, is not a complete loss cause when recovering. This is day 2 of 3.0, give it a little more time before you condemn his recovery.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Yoshi definitely struggles to recover at high %, when his DJ armor is pretty ineffective. This is a trade I'm willing to make, given that he has a shield that can't be poked, and he can jump out of it with Nair/Bair now. Yoshi has a strong enough onstage game, and the mixup potential with sideb. Recovery is not an issue. you should be wrecking your opponent enough that you can afford to get put in the occasional unwinnable recovery situation. Just practice more.

There's actually a lot to be said for double jumping early, and using sideb to mixup your onstage landing, or downb to the ledge.
 

trash?

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admittedly the more I look at his kind of balls recovery the more I like it

I like the idea that his defense is godlike onstage w/ that eggshield parry and not so much offstage, it's a neat tradeoff (and honestly, last thing P:M needs is more characters with great recoveries)
 

nLiM8d

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his double jump's armor can soak up moves that are high in damage and knockback
The Up-B change was perhaps reverted back in order to expand Yoshi's ledge game? I hear what you're saying with that comment, but I'm discussing the recovery special. It irks me that your initial response to the discussion was to be flippant and furthermore denounce the plausibility of future changes.

I imagine this may come off as passive, nonetheless I'm seeing a lot of 'give it time' remarks lately, which I find to be an overly sensitive response to players' concerns. You guys are proud of your work, that's understandable enough. Don't be so quick to defend, you'd be undermining the basis of that give it time argument by doing so.

Continuing on.
I'm certain that I'm not the only one that can say: I've been playing this game for a long time. Its not hard, I've picked up on the changes in a matter of minutes. Even with this as a reality, you can't expect people to be 100% open towards/creative with changes you've made on your terms, just look at the reactions from melee vets towards the changes made in vBrawl.

It's been buffed from Melee with the Egg Roll
What should this mean to me? You're essentially suggesting that through some osmosis-like intuition, I should know to adopt a foreign method. Considering the last time I had access to Yoshi in a mod was when Brawl+ was in circulation, I don't think its saying too much that I'm looking out for something familiar.
 

hamyojo

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Yoshi's awful recovery is a staple of his character, he's already been normalized enough with his new, boring, standard shield.
And it isn't /that/ bad. I'm a Melee Yoshi main, and every character has a lot of trouble figuring out how to edge guard me. You just have be really patient once you do jump, and make sure you can't get hit at the end of it/as you do a move out of it.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Nothing wrong with voicing your opinion duder, opinions are good, but there are other people that play this game. Its also very possible, that players could be innovative enough with good play and utilizing his current strengths so that his weaknesses are barely noticed, but that requires practice. It just benefits everyone to give this game more time to develop its meta game, least thats how I feel.
 

nLiM8d

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I hate it when I write these elaborate posts and end up creating split conversations.

Initially, I wasn't voicing any opinion; claiming that Yoshi's recovery has been reverted isn't an objective remark, that's fact. If it was buffed in vBrawl, then restored back to Melee, that's reversion. While it may not intrinsically be a nerf, it has the same components of one.

So, yeah suggesting that other people play the game is arbitrary to this discussion. That's not to say that I found anything wrong by that post, I think you've expressed yourself very well. We just don't seem to not have much correspondence going on in this convo.
 

Sashimi

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Yoshi's recovery is already decent if you learn how to use it. It's not amazing, but it doesn't have to be. Not every character needs an amazing recovery. Yoshi is not like other characters; you can't rely on a third jump, and that might be one of my favourite things about him.

Honestly, it's day 2 of a new meta, and if you spend time with it, you'll find just like Yoshi mains in every other smash game found, Yoshi's recovery isn't as bad as people make it seem.

Also, learning how to not get hit out your double jump/DJCs goes a loooong way to helping your stocks last longer.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I hate it when I write these elaborate posts and end up creating split conversations.

Initially, I wasn't voicing any opinion; claiming that Yoshi's recovery has been reverted isn't an objective remark, that's fact. If it was buffed in vBrawl, then restored back to Melee, that's reversion. While it may not intrinsically be a nerf, it has the same components of one.

So, yeah suggesting that other people play the game is arbitrary to this discussion. That's not to say that I found anything wrong by that post, I think you've expressed yourself very well. We just don't seem to not have much correspondence going on in this convo.
You can't compare his recovery to Brawl though, because if every character had their Brawl recovery, nobody would ever get gimped. There's A LOT of reasons Yoshi doesn't need the little hop on his upB, especially since he has a new recovery option with his sideB. Just because they didn't change him the way you wanted them to, doesn't mean he didn't get buffed. His recovery is better, and it doesn't need to be better than it is.
 

hamyojo

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Project M uses Melee as a base, not Brawl. Every character that came from Melee has that rule, even Ness, Kirby, and Bowser feel a lot like their Melee counter parts, just much better. Much, much better.

Adding the little hop to Yoshi's up b would really change up how he feels as a heavy, stubborn feeling character in the air. You have to play him smart, evasive, or just power you way through all their ****. Being able to have a little hop would allow you to recover like all the other big wheenies in the game, and that's no fun, Yoshi's special <3
 

nLiM8d

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Just because they didn't change him the way you wanted them to, doesn't mean he didn't get buffed.

I'm not sure where intend to go with this, I don't see how it would be relevant to the discussion. I'm discussing the manner in which it was nerfed, not buffed; which overall either change has nothing to do with how I wanted the properties to be implemented.

You can't compare his recovery to Brawl though, because if every character had their Brawl recovery, nobody would ever get gimped.
Sense?

His recovery is better, and it doesn't need to be better than it is.
Poor and subjective explanation.

Adding the little hop to Yoshi's up b would really change up how he feels as a heavy, stubborn feeling character in the air. You have to play him smart, evasive, or just power you way through all their ****. Being able to have a little hop would allow you to recover like all the other big wheenies in the game, and that's no fun, Yoshi's special <3
This, even though his explanation is still subjective to his viewpoints on fun, it still makes good use of rationale. At the very least, it addresses what qualities they were looking for when they made the reversion. It also helps me recognize what values/traits I should consider when playing Yoshi competitively.
 

#HBC | Joker

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You keep using words like "reversion" and "nerfed", like they apply. Did you play Melee? Do you understand what Project:M is supposed to be? Yoshi's recovery has not been nerfed. It has been decidedly buffed. We keep trying to explain this to you, but you keep ignoring it.
 

nLiM8d

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Who is we? For that matter, am I supposed to address the matter to your liking before it would apply?

I don't typically respond to bad explanations ala the "it is because it is" mentality.

Receive my way of being as you will, I'm sure we'll go far in this conversation.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I haven't used "it is because it is" as an explanation. You just keep on insisting that Yoshi's recovery has been nerfed, but that is not true. It has, in fact, been buffed.

This is not Smash4. Brawl is not "the previous installment", Melee is. If every character had their Brawl recovery, everyone would always recover. That's not the game that is being built by the Project M team. Nintendo already released that game in 2008. Project M is a game where gimping is still a thing that happens.
 

nLiM8d

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Lol Brawl+

Yeah, just remove all the additions to that project from this one and then we'll talk. Nonsensical right?

Its like your comment earlier about not being able to compare the two. Its not as though Melee attributes are the only measures that exist in this game. If that was the case, why bother spending any ounce of time trying to integrate the footstool option into a button. This isnt Brawl right, just eliminate it completely.
 

Sashimi

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In my opinion, Yoshi's PM recovery is even better than Brawl's. Yoshi now has increased knockback armor and a side B mixup when recovering high (which you can usually choose to do if you double jump early). I'd say being able to mixup your recovery is a lot better than having that little jump from Brawl.
 

MysteryRevengerson

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From what I'm gathering is "I played Brawl, coming from Brawl Yoshi's recovery is nerfed. Instead of adapting to a change like Brawl AND Melee players have to do, I'd rather them just buff his recovery. If they don't I'll just change it myself."

Is that the gist of it? It's pretty silly if so. :p
 

nLiM8d

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I'm hoping to convey that the mentions that you've been introducing aren't really all that relevant.

This isn't Smash4
Why would that assertion be important?

I'm trying to relay the idea that one cannot exist without the other. It seems to me that insisting that Brawl and everything that it introduced didn't need to exist.

Its this 'Melee is better because it is' approach, that I feel, voids a sense of dynamic appeal from this conversation. Lets look into it further.

I wonder why something's been changed. I press for reasons.
The Reply? It was changed because Melee was a thing and Gimping, that's a thing. That perception is better than your interpretation of a thing because those Melee things are things. Also this isn't Smash 4 so there.

Oh but by all means, I should just bite the bullet on that logic.

Is that the gist of it?
I'm guessing ya'll missed the part where hamyojo pretty much addressed my concerns.

Adding the little hop to Yoshi's up b would really change up how he feels as a heavy, stubborn feeling character in the air. You have to play him smart, evasive, or just power you way through all their ****.
Anyway, I'm not looking out for just myself. I introduce Project M to everyone in my circle; because they consist primarily of Brawl players, they're often off put to certain changes and I'm hard pressed to explain why those changes exist. I understand why they do, but it can be difficult to articulate the objective matter of depth you guys hope to obtain by these changes, one perspective to another. When I receive responses like the one I described, it makes it even more challenging.
 

Scatz

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From someone that's played both games and mess around with P:M, it's understandable why they took out Brawl's upB method (outside of using Melee as a base). With wavebouncing and 5 hops (not including DJ Airdodge mechanics), his recovery was extremely strong in terms of mixing up an opponents attack that didn't cover a substantial amount of space. You'd be giving P:M Yoshi a very strong horizontal recovery as well as a good vertical recovery.

To be frank, he has extremely good tools as is to make sure he lands on the stage. With his ability to still wavebounce his Egg Lay, you can still use Brawl's method of coming down from the highest possible angle and changing up your momentum at the last minute to avoid getting hit. He'll obviously be weak when it comes to recovering from lower trajectories, but with DJ, Egg Roll, Wavebouncing Egg Lay, and his new fall speed, his should be just fine.

As for explaining things to Brawl players. Unless they've played Melee, it's not going to cater their feel in most ways since it's slower paced, more defensive, and more about recoveries than Melee. They just have to look at it as a new game. A lot of people aren't going to be able to give you the bigger picture if they haven't played Melee and Brawl enough to understand the changes as a whole. I've been doing that in the Brawl Yoshi boards while most of them don't like the changes.
 

hamyojo

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Its "Super Smash Bros. Project M" there's no "Brawl" there, and you could argue there's no "Melee" in that either, but PM's official Twitter is @ProjectMelee.
The only real Brawl influence in the game is some characters, stages, and advanced techs. The game is Project M first, Melee second, and Brawl third(or fourth, maybe behind Smash 64).

Yoshi's recovery (whether you say its good or bad, it's hard to say) is a staple of him and Melee. It's too special to expect any large buffs or changes.

Basically... I think his PM recovery will always be something you can yell "AHM COMIN' IN" to.
 

nLiM8d

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I'm glad that you touched on Air Dodge mechanics, to a degree I feel they have some bearing in the vein of things I've been attempting to convey.

On the SmashMods page a while back, PMBR mentioned that they toyed with the idea of implementing a Hybrid Air Dodge.

I've seen it in action and I can definitely recognize its faults. I'm curious, however, about some of the implications of that sort of implementation. Specifically the instances where having it becomes metagame breaking with some characters.

I wonder if the concept of inverting the HAD has been suggested yet. It essentially causes the character to go into a special fall when the AD is coupled with a directional input, but only inhibits a second jump when neutral.

The air dodge mechanics only became bothersome when the older versions of PM registered an air dodge instead of a break fall (I believe its known as a tech) causing my fellows and I to plummet to our deaths. Sure, it might be a miscalculation of stage collision on our end, but the fault only goes so far since its the same button press for two different situations.

Anyway, pardon that off topic segway.

Its "Super Smash Bros. Project M" there's no "Brawl" there
Except for, ya'know, the name of the disc that allows PM to run.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I'm hoping to convey that the mentions that you've been introducing aren't really all that relevant.



Why would that assertion be important?

I'm trying to relay the idea that one cannot exist without the other. It seems to me that insisting that Brawl and everything that it introduced didn't need to exist.

Its this 'Melee is better because it is' approach, that I feel, voids a sense of dynamic appeal from this conversation. Lets look into it further.

I wonder why something's been changed. I press for reasons.
The Reply? It was changed because Melee was a thing and Gimping, that's a thing. That perception is better than your interpretation of a thing because those Melee things are things. Also this isn't Smash 4 so there.

Oh but by all means, I should just bite the bullet on that logic.





I'm guessing ya'll missed the part where hamyojo pretty much addressed my concerns.

Anyway, I'm not looking out for just myself. I introduce Project M to everyone in my circle; because they consist primarily of Brawl players, they're often off put to certain changes and I'm hard pressed to explain why those changes exist. I understand why they do, but it can be difficult to articulate the objective matter of depth you guys hope to obtain by these changes, one perspective to another. When I receive responses like the one I described, it makes it even more challenging.
It sounds to me like if you don't like the logic "Melee did these things better than Brawl, and this is why the game was designed this way", then maybe PM isn't for you. You could always just play Brawl, or some other mod, if that's how you feel. PM is HEAVILY influenced by Melee, and not so much by Brawl. This is something you need to accept, or just like, don't play. Nobody is forcing you.
 

nLiM8d

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I really don't see what your deal is. Its not like I've been begging the likes of you to come to my rescue on this, let alone respond to what I have to say.

Something this guy said bothers me and I don't know how to make a proper retort, so I'll just assume that he just doesn't get Melee and tell him to **** off.
I suppose that it doesn't really matter, I can always resort to the third option that you didn't mention.
 

#HBC | Joker

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You keep responding to me. If you don't want me to talk to you, then stop talking to me. I thought we were having a harmless discussion, but it seems you're not enjoying it, but participating anyway.
 

MysteryRevengerson

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Why is this even still going.

Yoshi has a not so hot recovery. You can still make it back on stage, you just have to be careful and it isn't real easy or anything. Yoshi's not going to get the boost because it messes with egg strats from Melee. Not everyone is supposed to have a real good recovery, as was mentioned before, Yoshi has an awkward path back to the stage and it's a part of his character.

I'm almost 100% sure it's not getting the hop from Brawl back, sorry pal.

A much better topic is discussing ways to recover back and against certain characters, rather than discussing what should get added to Yoshi.
 

nLiM8d

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Seriously tho, did it not register that I'm indifferent to Yoshi's current recovery special?

A much better topic is discussing ways to recover back and against certain characters, rather than discussing what should get added to Yoshi.
That's on you pal, you're the one that's interpreted things that way, the floor is open.

Yoshi has an awkward path back to the stage and it's a part of his character.
What?

I thought we were having a harmless discussion
What is this, reverse psychology? I never so much as hinted that I disapprove of this conversation. There's a few things I might change about your approach to/reception of my posts, but overall everything's cool on my end.

Something this guy said bothers me and I don't know how to make a proper retort, so I'll just assume that he just doesn't get Melee and tell him to **** off.
If you're going by that quote, that was just my impression of how you were responding to me earlier. I'm not offended or anything, that's just my perception of how you come off. I guess I wasn't too clear about that earlier.
 

210stuna

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Why does doing up B use up my double jump though?
Because Melee?

Even if I get hit making me fall off the stage, or wave dash to get off the stage, if I use up B that's it. I die

Somebody tell me I'm wrong.

I'll admit I thought the PMBR would utilize his up B recovery tactic in Brawl, so we could get the best of both worlds.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Why does doing up B use up my double jump though?
Because Melee?

Even if I get hit making me fall off the stage, or wave dash to get off the stage, if I use up B that's it. I die

Somebody tell me I'm wrong.

I'll admit I thought the PMBR would utilize his up B recovery tactic in Brawl, so we could get the best of both worlds.
Your upB isn't actually using up your double jump, you're just using up your double jump when you upB. You're tap jumping, and double jump canceling it with upB. You have to tilt the stick ever so slightly, so you don't trigger a tap jump, or finish your jump before upBing.
 
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