"Yom-Bum!" The Yoshi Film Analysis Channel.

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I don't really have the motivation to do a full match analysis, but I watch you vs. Eagle, which was nice (except the video quality). I saw some cool things and some shenanigans. I feel like your playstyle in those games is similar to how I play friendlies whenever I want to do cool things. I would say possibly working on systematic ways to land guaranteed follow-ups/edgeguards would benefit you, as well as a clear understanding of what you need in any given situation.

Examples from game 1 vs Eagle:
~1:25 you had lots of combo potential here, but it never really looked like you had him where you were expecting him, and you struggled through what could have been a good position for you.

~2:10 for were fishing for fair pretty hard, which definitely would be a good thing to land in that position(you could gain a solid comeback with a combo, but could afford to risk your high % stock), but it was too obvious. Try zoning to trick him into your range?

~2:35: same as at 1:25

Overall though, looking very nice. Very creative and fun to watch.
 

Pabmyster

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First words of advice: don't dash attack in neutral! The main thing I notice is that in neutral you aren't spacing your moves properly and generally are just throwing out bad hitboxes for the sake of it. Also, you don't incorporate any DJC aerials, your edge guarding is generally bad, your ledge get up options are too predictable and slow (you go for the jump from ledge a lot), and you are shielding and rolling unnecessarily when your opponent gets close to you. I also noticed that you do unsafe things on shield all the time. This includes the dreaded dash attack.

For recovery, you should try mixing up going high, then going low with an egg or down-b to grab ledge. Ledge get up should involve some ECEs to cover you if it is safe to do so, and some wavelands on or double jumps on.

On to your edge guarding, you never grab edge with your reverse double jump. This is a great way to psych out opponents when they go for a quick sweet spot. You also seem to charge smash attacks by the edge instead of actively telegraphing your opponent and doing a run-off egg toss, dtilt, f tilt, etc.

You really need to utilize the platforms more. Practice your wavelanding and shield dropping and try to maneuver the stage quicker. Platforms are your best friend! Very good for approaches and getting out of tight situations.

You should try to mix up your jump heights when approaching with aerials, and don't dair unless you are trying to cover something below you when recovery from very high. You also seem to down b a lot when recovering above an opponent instead of resetting back to neutral. Down b can be good when used very scarcely to catch opponents off guard, but you should really just try getting back on the stage or getting to ledge into a safe position and regain your double jump.

Your offensive game is really lacking. You need to work on comboing more with fair and uair. Also, you need to try and bait more, especially on knockdown situations. Jab reset is amazing if they don't tech and can lead to uair combos or a fair to get them in the air again. This is where dash dancing and djc really come into play. right now your offensive game consists solely of dash attack and dtilt. Shield grab and grab in general are other bad habits you have. Very punishable.

Right now you just need to improve Melee fundamentals, L-canceling, wavedashing, dash dancing, wavelanding and all. Then will come neutral and punish game. After you get all that down, your next step would be parrying. That will come later though.

Hope this helps :)
 
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birthgirth

Smash Rookie
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Aug 23, 2014
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I can't post links yet? ...but
EDIT: Got my posts up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfBkvS0vJqI

Did an end-of-smashfest 2am exhibition. Normally I would ban fountain and dreamland because they're my least favorite, but he banned dreamland so I banned FoD and Yoshi's (because upsmash) and I feel pretty comfortable on Final anyway.
So he ended up taking me to Final twice.
So anyway give me some input! :D I apologize for the Rainbow FD and flashing L-cancel. For whatever reason those were on.
 
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birthgirth

Smash Rookie
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Aug 23, 2014
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I also want to post a couple more from earlier that night where I was a little more fresh and not on Final Destination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jMRuRchDB8
2C4:7 I play against a lot. I didn't use much parry's because he's overall a defensive player who doesn't approach frequently. So I try to play more aggressive to keep the pressure high so the pace of the match is decent, all while trying to parry when he does attack. (Like when he attacks out of shield.) He also plays pretty unorthodox and throws out some janky moves out of nowhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axq0n2QcbxY
This guy Andres has great fundamentals. Brawl was his primary game. He doesn't do much wavedashing, if at all, but his fundamentals are really, really solid. I haven't played him much at all and tried to apply the same strategy as above and just try to outpace him.

I will admit to trying to swag too hard which results in SD's. Also with ECE I was scared of the Marth Dtilt and really blew the timing on them.
Also a lot of the rolls you'll see me do were not intentional and were actually missed inputs on parry's (Trying to parry and jump forwards). I used to use an old gamecube controller and just switched to a (Smash4) Brand new white/black controller. And I while I feel it gives me a ton more control, i'm still getting used to parrying and shield dropping with it.
 
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Pabmyster

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I watched the first link, and I don't have specific time stamps, but it's just general stuff anyways. Well, all I can really say is that you sometimes shield for no reason when you expect to get hit instead of actively telegraphing, you flubbed a couple edge guards, and you missed a couple L-cancels (haha). Also, you missed some grabs because he read your pattern and he would just spot dodge, in that situation you should mix it up a bit, one time go straight in, one time dash dance a bit, fade out with a wave dash, stop in place and bait the spot dodge, make it look like you're going to grab then do something else entirely, etc. One thing to note is that you tend to panic roll a lot, when it is better to just not shield at all in most situations, as your a sitting duck. Aside from the normal tech flubs, (air dodging on accident, not doing anything after a parry, missed ECE, DJC fair into the ground with no hitbox coming out) I'd say you're pretty darn good. Especially your punish/combo game; that seems to be your strongest suit. I'd say your next step is to clean up the edge guards better, and don't be afraid to go to ledge and do a ledge hop nair, or rush in for the quick ledge hog to keep him guessing with his recovery.

One last thing, when you're off stage, and it looks too far to make back, don't DJ right away. Fall a bit horizontally and try to recover low, grabbing the ledge with an ECE or yoshi bomb, or faking the ledge and overshooting onto stage. Fox can only really gimp you at higher percents with bair and doubleshine, but other than that you pretty much eat through his edge guards. Some MUs, like Peach, it's good to recover high, but for Fox it's safer to go low.
 

birthgirth

Smash Rookie
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Aug 23, 2014
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@ Pabmyster Pabmyster

Thanks so much! You pointed out a lot of things that I was noticing myself. The panic rolls really only happen because of the initial missed input shield/roll. It's often if I try to wavedash or L-cancel my shield goes up on accident and then i go into the panic rolls for sure. And you're right about the mixups and how he spot dodges my grab and edge guards. I would say playing the same person over and over again (2C4:7) has given me some bad habits with edge guarding. I need to work on being more precise with parry's and not rushing things because often times I'll get the parry but djc or djc attack too fast and end up not leaving the ground and doing some random useless move.

Let me know what you think of the platformed stages I posted.
Thanks again!

EDIT: I see what you mean. Way too many deliberate shields and rolls too. :p And the no hitbox Fairs are just me being bad at doing a forward momentum Nair. haha
 
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YOSHIDO

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Pabmyster

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Against Oro: Dash attack is not good in neutral, or as a followup most of the time. A lot of the time, you were fishing hard for the CC dsmash or spot dodge dsmash, which is very predictable after a while, especially if they figure out how to deal with it. At the same time, you got most of your kills from raw dsmash, which is nice. At 10:05, you could have walked passed her and gotten the behind hit or turned around before the downsmash, which would have cut that stock a little earlier. Sheik has a lot of end lag on her up b, so you can punish the landing fairly easily. You seem to have a very methodical play style, so making sure your shield drops and defensive tools are on point is important. Jump parrying effectively would be crucial to add to you playstyle at some point, since it can lead to further followups and can circumvent that panic roll and shield you see Yoshis do all the time. Your offstage and ledge options can also be more varied, mixing up the low and high recovery, and spacing with ECEs and practicing wavelanding/DJing from ledge to expand your options. 8:26 could you have DI'd behind and lived by taking a bair?

One VERY important thing you have to note, is how you always recover high. I had this habit too, and i got punished hard for it. The low recovery can be amazing in a lot of MUs, DJing really low and landing on ledge with an egg in front of you for cover can be a great option if they aren't right at the ledge. DJ low can be also mitigate taking a hit to your DJ armor and saving it for when you are closer to ledge and can still make it back regardless. From ledge, there are times at higher percents where you will roll onto stage multiple times in a row, and from your opponent's perspective, they will probably catch on to that. At lower percents, you DJ from ledge and waveland onto the nearest platform almost every time.

Another thing, you seem to never overextend, which is good, but you miss some of your more guaranteed followups because you turtle defensively when on the offensive. I'd experiment more with what moves can string into each other at certain percents on certain characters, and actively think about it as you play.

For the Samus MU, my advice would be to work on your movement and pressure to mitigate her projectile camping, and utilizing the platforms can aid in this too. I find a lot of success with using eggs in this MU. Nearly every single time you were recovering, you'd go high and bomb onto ledge, which can be good until they read you and hog the edge, which has lost me games before.

What I really like is how you space and utilize shielding and spot dodging. I'm not going to advise you to change that style since it seems to be working phenominally, but just know there are better options. The way you lost the last game in the Samus match was the very habits I've been describing. First, you came in with a reckless attack, then you tried to recover high and got read, then you put yourself in a panic situation where you shielded and rolled, trying to bait something that you could spot dodge. If you're in that shielding situation, remember that you can light shield and get pushed back onto the ledge when he hits you with the fsmash. But I would try to avoid that situation entirely. I think you might have tried teching, but got psyched out when you never went into free fall and instead got stuck in shield on reaction. I maybe would have spammed jump to get on the platform or out of the corner while also being ready for the tech, since its a 20 frame window.

All in all, I'd say just break those bad habits and work on your tech a bit and having confidence in high pressure situations. You're doing very well up to this point with your style, keep up the good work :)
And listen to the commentators, too. They will point things out that you should be doing differently.
 
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YOSHIDO

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Thanks Pabmyster. Pooch and moy along with Dart have given me great feed back on matches and commentary. I'll definitely make a conscious effort to break and avoid those habits all the time and not just when I'm comfortable and in the lead. I have no clue on why I started always going high. I'll be sure to mix in my recovery, attack and defensive options. Hmm You might be on to something about DI'ing behind him on that Dair. You bring up a good point about the shielding, especially in the Samus MU, there was no reason to think that he would always go for an obvious unsafe shield attack when close.

Thanks again, this gives me a better focus on where and why the matches ended the way they did. I'm sure I know where to take my game and mindset from this point on :)
 

YOSHIDO

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Definitely man. I look forward to it! Yesterday I fell short of my goal. But I understand why and im super excited for the National Jab 3. Should be fun.
 

Pabmyster

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To start, what the commentators said was correct. TOO MANY EGGS! You had some nice egg tosses, but for every nice one you had two bad ones that got you punished. All you had to do for a lot of those stocks was RDJ ledge grab and roll on, standard press L edge guard, and if you want to toss some ECEs in there too, then cool. Another option would be run off egg toss to grab the ledge. Second, you are approaching in neutral way too much, esp. with unsafe things that weren't properly spaced. The second game this was more apparent and ended up losing you the set. A lot of panicky dash attacks and spot dodge dsmash fishing for the kill sealed your grave there.

Also, eggs in neutral are not that great tbh. You should join the Yoshi skype group if you haven't already, we go over a lot of theory like that there. In all honesty, you would've won that set had you grabbed the ledge every time your opponent was off stage. Yoshi has the fastest ledge grab option in the game, so utilize it! Break the habit of throwing eggs like that by the edge and in neutral.

Your punish game was great all around. I would just work on approaching/not approaching and baiting in neutral (something I myself suck at), and tightening up those edge guards. Rolling and spot dodging is a hard habit to break since it seems hard to punish a lot of the time, I know, but really just work on not getting stuck in shield. Good players will punish you HARD for that, and every time you're in shield, you're in the worst possible position (except on platform). For every time you spot dodge or shield in a match, think to yourself, "Could I have parried that instead?" One more thing, just tech skill related, work on your shield drops to the point of perfection. Yoshi is never in a good spot shielding on a platform with no shield drops. That could just be tech flubs or nerves, but it's really important.

Lastly, re-watch the set, this time looking from your opponent's perspective. Knowing what you did that got you punished by looking at how easy it was for your opponent is a good way of correcting your mistakes. Look at what made it easy for him, then look at what he struggled with against you.

Hope this helps. :p
 

Dinowulf

Smash Journeyman
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That shield brake did it i think far as my spirit goes. I tried to stay positive the next game but my shield drop failed there and i could see my reaction when i go back to that match. I want to know what is the properties of Marth Up+B. I somehow (which is bad) convinced myself that Marth + B (Sweet Spot) Beat's Yoshi's reverse double jump Ledge grab so if you noticed i constantly threw eggs on the egg.
 

Pabmyster

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Marth's only option to get back on stage is up-b. Think how scared he must be down there? He is going to try and sweet spot in fear that you will marth killer/gimp him, therefore you are at an advantage when he is off stage. The only way he can mix up his timings is with side b and double jump, in which you can either bait them out or refresh your invincibility in a multitude of ways. run off egg toss is good for this, as you can take their dj when they are further out, limit their options to ledge, and take away sweet spot at the same time.
 

BakersDozen

Smash Rookie
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Aug 7, 2015
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I want to start playing yoshi but there's a lot of complicated tech with him. Is it better to use tap-jump for up air strings or x/y? And what are some good tips to get started? How do I practice parrying?
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
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Aug 18, 2005
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Hey guys I got a match for you to critique.

I haven't played much melee since 2010 but our local scene (Orlando, FL) has become incredibly active so I've kinda been getting back into it a bit the past couple months. I'm definitely going to focus mainly on Yoshi.

My issue with Yoshi has always been the neutral, it just feels weird since I play 64 Yoshi so much. But I definitely feel like I'm getting more comfortable with it. I've been focusing on down tilts because they are really good and poke through shields a lot. And then I try to throw in some djc nairs, dash attacks, and f-tilts to mix things up and catch them off guard.

Let me know what you think I could/should have done differently in this set:

 
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@ S SheerMadness good stuff, your use of Dtilt is pretty solid. The only thing to improve in that respect is to make sure you space it outside of shieldgrab range.

It seems like you are using a diagonal angle for your platform wavelands. Hold straight left or right instead, and continue to hold it until you are off the platform. This should help speed things up. If you want to be even faster, adding a fastfall after the waveland can help.

Egg Lay is a solid option in neutral against an opponent if you know they will be on the ground. It doesn't give guaranteed follow-ups, but puts your opponent (excluding space animals - don't use Egg Lay against them) above you, and if you use it below a platform, it will leave your opponent in a very bad spot. No one wants to be above Yoshi. Against Sheik, it is pretty useful, since it outprioritizes some of her moves and goes through shield.

Make sure to save Dash Attack for when your opponent can't crouch cancel it. It will knock Sheik over at 49%.

When Sheik Dthrows you at low %, your best options are DI far behind and Nair (don't double jump) or DI up and slightly behind and try to jump away.

At the beginning of the second game, you held in while Sheik was Ftilting you. Don't be afraid to DI offstage if it means you will get out of a combo. Yoshi can't get gimped, especially not by Sheik, if you don't do anything silly while recovering.

It seems like you understand Yoshi's combo game pretty well. I loved the DJC first hit Bair around 6 minutes in, that could have set up for something really awesome!
 
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Pabmyster

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EDIT: Perhapsman stole my thunder
Ok, since I'm like the only one doing these reviews, I'm gonna take a stab at it.

Game 1, your punishes were very solid and your ground game neutral is impressive, considering that aspect of Yoshi is essentially unexplored, amsa only playing a primarily aerial focused game. One thing I'm going to mention right off the bat, your on shield game is very exploitable. I see quite a few dash attacks at the shield, as well as jabs which are very lackluster, no, horrible, awful, very bad options, esp. considering the breadth of tools Yoshi has for pressuring shield.

Jab 1 to jab 2 has a -12 frame disadvantage on shield, dash attack has a -27 disadvantage on shield.

Compare that to DJC nair, which is +1 on shield when executed correctly, for an example of probably Yoshi's best shield pressure option.

Another option is to just grab the darn Sheik sitting in shield. A lot of the time people don't realize that their opponent is either expecting you to hit them, or expecting you to grab them and bait into a spot dodge when they are sitting in shield. If you're opponent 9/10 times is not moving out of shield, he is probably trying to shield grab you because he doesn't know his other options. Even if you do bait the shield grab, you can actually parry the grab and punish that way, because your opponent will probably think nothing of it. He is at your mercy, unless he knows the matchup rahter well, which I doubt most people do. There is also egg lay which is underutilized as a grab option, and can be a rather useful setup option if they don't see it coming.

Also, there were a lot of miss-spaced dtilts on his shield on top of the jabs and dash attacks that got you shield grabbed. If you add up all the engagements you lost just off of getting shield grabbed and aerialed, that alone was enough to lose you the set. Look at perhapsman's thread under "attacks on shield" for all the info on his options: http://smashboards.com/threads/some-yoshi-information.351635/

Sheik would camp you a lot with platform needles into aerials or grab, so to counteract that, and when you acknowledge it in game, you have to be ready to parry the needle. Out of a parry, you can wavedash back and punish, or start an aerial string with uair or at higher percents force an offstage edgeguard with nair, or a tech chase with fair. I'm not entirely sure what exactly can punish shiek after you parry her needle, as it depends how she reacts to that. if she still comes down with an aerial or grab, you could be over top of her and would have to improvise from there. The wavedash back spacing would probably be enough to wiff punish here boost grab, but I would have to test that.

Game 2 he started to break down your play. You forced an offstage edge guard, then you let him have stage control for free. When you see him vanish, that's when you do either an aerial interrupt into a dsmash, or a standard get up into a full hop nair to cover the straight up angle. If he goes to platform, you should still have enough time to get off ledge and cover that option. He started reading your linear approach after you got the dtilt and began spot dodging your nair.

All in all, you became too predictable by the end of the set, and he punished you for it, platform camping and all. Completely get rid of the jabs and dash attacks you're doing, Keep experimenting with ground neutral for the sake of this character and work on your shield dropping, cus this ain't 64 :p
 
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SheerMadness

Smash Master
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Aug 18, 2005
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4,781
Thanks guys.

He did sit in his shield a lot and I didn't take advantage at all. Think I'm still too focused on myself due to not being that comfortable with Yoshi so I'm blind to obvious things like that sometimes.

I'm well aware jabs are bad on shield. Not sure why I was doing them. I usually go with DJC nair - jump rising nair which seems to be the safest shield pressure Yoshi has.

Dash attack is certainly awful on shield (probably low % too). But I catch people with it all the time and it seems like a great mix up when they're at mid to high percents IMO. I just have to be more careful with it.
 

ABAP Kidney

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
17
So I finally got a recording of me playing melee. Dear lord, I did terribly. I will attribute a little bit of this to being in a crew battle with HMW and Phil and the dang crew, which I've never done before and for sure put me on edge. But mostly I did bad because I am bad. On the other hand, I did a couple things right maybe? So I guess what I'm looking for is what is most important for me to work on? How should I make my practice time count? Why do I throw eggs in neutral like an idiot? Discuss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESPqbF1-w6k&t=5m0s
 

Kalimari

Smash Cadet
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Sep 3, 2006
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Phoenix, Arizona
im new to yosh but some things I noticed:
- you did a solid job killing nana when you had her by herself. low %s down tilt is great getting her off stage. once she has some percent down smash will take her out swiftly.
- you need to egg lay a lot more in this matchup. neutral b is a very good tool against climbers considering nana doesn't mash out and if you get popo you get a hit on nana. * as i said that you started using it more, good stuff.
- you sort of just -fell- into grabs. i dont know know if you were nervous or feeling the pressure of the crew battle but you full jumped and came down on top of the climbers across the map and you got grab punished for it.

you have solid tech skill and a p good understanding of the matchup^^. ill let the more experienced players discuss the intricacies of your play
 

Pabmyster

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To begin, I noticed you are committing to shielding on the platform when there is a lot of instances when you don't have to. Shield dropping for the sake of it isn't what makes it useful. I would practice it more on reaction to being hit and getting down quicker altogether to mitigate the possibility of being stuck on a platform vs. a character like Marth. Also, doing it quicker with more consistency is always good, but that comes with practice. What you should work on out of a shield drop is your shield drop dj platform wavelands to keep your platform game open as well. A mixup I suggest if you are struggling with your shield drop is to light shield while you attempt to shield drop. This will make you slide off the platform if you get hit by pretty much any move, putting you back on the ground or moving you to ledge.

The first game was basically just thrown away because of those unfortunate hits out of your DJ. What I like to do first game is feel my opponent out more before I try to pressure him. Especially Marth at the low to mid levels of play, they tend to have a lot of bad habits that you need to scout before you get hit by scrubby fsmash after scrubby fsmash. That's when you download them and bait those laggy moves out. Yoshi's dashdance is great for this, and is often underutilized compared to the amsa style of tons of aerial pressure and using obvious crouching parries against telegraphed moves. You also need to use your armor more sparingly as to not get hit out of it when DJCing, rather using it to take a hit then canceling it with an aerial.

Looking at your play, you are really reminiscent of how I played late last year, Yoshi colour, tech skill and all. A top player in Canada, Rayn-Ex, told me once that I was focusing too much on my movement rather than trying to hit the opponent. This means two things:
1. Exactly what it says (ie. not getting a lot of hits)
2. You are not looking at your opponent as you play, meaning in turn that you are focusing on you own character more than what the opponent is doing
I think the same thing can apply to you, where you like to get momentum with your wavelands and create breathing room that way. This is exactly what happens at 3:52 where you die, and 3:55 when you come back, and then for the rest of the game where you are wavelanding around the stage, often unnecessarily. For one, this is bad because you are subjecting yourself to playing on the platforms against a character that has a crazy platform coverage and punish game, esp. on FoD and YS, and secondly you are giving up all of your stage control for free. Another reason why this is bad is because every time you mess up a waveland or are forced into shield and miss a shield drop, that is another 60%+ damage taken from a competent opponent. It's safe to say that a very large majority of your stocks were lost coming down from platforms or high up in the air with an aerial.

The point of looking at you opponent while you play goes hand-in-hand with not getting hit and in turn getting more value out of neutral overall. This is another habit that you have, where you try to compete with Marth's hitboxes too carelessly with your aerials. What you have to realize is that there is an opponent next to you who can easily react to your low range and highly telegraphed/high startup lag hitboxes and punish accordingly. For this, you must respect his threat zone, or the area around Marth that is the most immediate threat to you.

I HIGHLY recommend watching these two videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFtGQRm1bTg&feature=youtu.be

Now, Yoshi's neutral is FAR from apparent as to what you are trying to accomplish, but there are some theories. First, the general gameplan of Yoshi is usually that you are trying to force a knockdown through means of fair, uptilt, dtilt, etc. and punish hard through tech chasing and jab resets, as well as trying to gimp the opponent if the opportunity presents itself. Secondly, Yoshi wants to bait moves and punish accordingly, through his movement and his parry. Then there is the theory that Yoshi's biggest advantage over other characters is his parry, so,
"Yoshi has to abuse the situations in melee where his opponent doesn't have the luxury of messing with subtle timings.
So the game plan is essentially:

-identify where the opponent is going to need to rely on muscle memory

-direct the neutral game into one of those situations

-observe their timing

-return to that situation and get a parry"
Courtesy of Perhapsman in skype group (lol)

This is harder to explain, but this would be the next step after where you learn the basic neutral more. If you want to hear that I could PM you or make another post about it.

This is a great, semi-recent set to watch for examples of the neutral with Yoshi from someone other than aMSa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2DELX23muo
If you look closely, you can see how leffen stays out of Marth's threat range with dashdance, and how he doesn't play the platform game exorbitantly. There are a lot of things he does wrong like his dash attacks on a CCing Marth, but his amazing neutral transfers from his Fox directly. He uses platforms a lot more on his CP to DL, because he knows Marth struggles with the platforms here and he is safer to waveland around as a baiting and neutral tool.

One last thing, you rarely - if ever - got more than a two hit string. You have to look for you best combo starters like fair and up tilt/up air when an opening presents itself, and learn when to extend for another hit and when to be disciplined. Also, ledge hop nair is really good at suffing a lot of recoveries, so work on that.

TL;DR You have very good tech skill and movement. You should work on perfecting your tech skill, learning to parry, extending your punishes, and observing the neutral and the opponent better, as well as breaking your bad habits. A lot of this will come with experience.
One last plug: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2jc3gb/nmws_guide_to_getting_good_at_melee/
:)
 
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ôSleepô

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7
Location
Rohnert Park, California
First off holy poop dude thank you so much for this break down. I watched and read everything you provided. I didn't realize how much time I was not actually looking at my opponent when doing platform movement. As for everything else you said, I am now doing my best to implement spacing,understanding my opponents movement patterns, using shield dropping better, not overusing platform movement and not losing stage control for no reason. As for parrying, I have a hard time using it against marth and shiek, I parry once at 0:17 but its hard to see because of frame skips in the recording. I am super excited to improve as much as I can.
 

Pabmyster

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
186
Location
Sudbury, Ontario
NNID
Pabmyster
First off holy poop dude thank you so much for this break down. I watched and read everything you provided. I didn't realize how much time I was not actually looking at my opponent when doing platform movement. As for everything else you said, I am now doing my best to implement spacing,understanding my opponents movement patterns, using shield dropping better, not overusing platform movement and not losing stage control for no reason. As for parrying, I have a hard time using it against marth and shiek, I parry once at 0:17 but its hard to see because of frame skips in the recording. I am super excited to improve as much as I can.
Glad to help :)
These analysis' help me improve and develop my critical thinking skills in the long run as well. I just hope that somebody would be willing to review my videos if I ever get any, haha.
 
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
704
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
ABAP Kidney ABAP Kidney

Congrats on the victory!

There are a few really big things that affected the whole match:

1) Your edgeguarding strategy is not too bad, but it has two holes in it. The first is that you don't always time your get up from the ledge properly, so you might want to work on timing it better. Often, you were late and couldn't get the punish you wanted afterwards. You also rolled from the ledge a few times, which was very slow. This is only useful if Sheik tries to go for the ledge (but you can cover that without rolling). The second was that when you got Sheik to land onstage, you would down smash her to the other side of the stage. Often Atrioc would Amsah tech the down smash and you only got 12% off an edgeguard situation where you could have taken Sheik's stock. Instead, you should try to hit Sheik back off the same side she just recovered, since she will be sent further offstage. In order to do this, you can run past her and hit her with neutral air, or try a cross up DJC Nair. If she is very high %, you can combo up tilt into a KO. If you really want to use down smash, it is best to run past Sheik and pivot Dsmash so she gets sent towards the closer blast zone.

2) Your use of Egg Toss didn't get you much reward, and sometimes caused some problems. Egg Toss is VERY laggy on stage, and should be avoided in most matchups. I noticed you would use it to end combos or pester Sheik while she was on the ledge. After a combo it is better to hold your ground and keep stage control unless the egg is really well-placed and you are not at risk. When Sheik is on the ledge, Egg Toss won't do much, since she is intangible the whole time and can safely come back on stage without getting hit by the egg. Instead, try to threaten an edgehog (Yoshi's double jump ledge grab is very scary for a shino stalling Sheik!) and coax Sheik to Fair or come on stage. From there, press your advantage, or if Sheik refuses to stop stalling, go for the edge hog.

3) When you are close to your opponent, you tend to use a lot of smash attacks and generally spend most of your time only attacking as much as possible. There were quite a few places where Atrioc could have blocked your GTFO Dsmashes and punished, but you got away with them. This habit didn't hurt you too much but it would be a problem against better players. Watch the forward and up smashes, as these moves are more situational and you didn't get rewarded too much for using them. Also consider using forward tilt in some places where you used down smash. It is just as fast on startup as down smash and does the same amount of damage, but is less laggy and sets up for combos at low %, while down smash only does a bit of damage.

4) You love approaching with Fair. It is a really good move in this matchup, and obviously has great reward, but moving towards your opponent with Fair, especially from a platform or after a double jump, is very risky! In game 3 you can see Atrioc caught on and would consistently outspace your Fairs and punish them. Game 3 would not have been very close if Atrioc hadn't gotten those free hits against you. Try to be a bit more reserved with Fair and use it when reading dash attacks or grabs, since retreating Fair is much more safe and harder to punish. If you insist on using approaching Fair, do it when you have a frame advantage so Sheik can't simply hit you out of the startup. When Sheik starts charging needles or whiffs an attack, it is more safe to use Fair, since she will likely block it and let you set up shield pressure or at least be spaced safely against her grab.

Don't be afraid to play the ground game against Sheik! Her needles can be annoying but they don't give her any reward other than some damage, and she has a lot of lag that can be punished with Fair or Egg Lay from far away if you read her needles. If she's not throwing needles, you have no reason to go to the platforms, since your dashdance, down tilt, dash attack, parry, crouch cancel, and forward air are real threats against her ground game.
 
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