Would it be better if they made the Advanced Technicues easier?

[Fawriel]

The most natural thing would be to just make the character jump higher for as long as you hold the button, with a minimum and a maximum jump height, naturally. It's slight strange that it's harder to hop a little than to jump a height several times your own. =P

 

[OysterMeister]

What if the frames for pulling off an L-cancel were extended to the entire landing animation, but you only get the reduced speed after you press L? That way it's an easy move to pull of, so everybody can still shave a few frames of their landing animation if they want to, but you still have room for the pros to be better, because only they will be able to start the L-cancel at exactly the first frame and thus reap the most benefit.

What if the rest of the advanced techs to transition to Brawl became more like that, where anybody can do them, but only a pro can really do them properly?
Is that a fair comprimise?

 

[Dark Sonic]

But the thing is, everybody can L-cancel as it is. If you were to make l canceling like you mentioned above would end up having completely lagless moves when L-canceled properly. L-canceling cuts the lag in half, but doesn't completely get rid of your moves cooloff time. What's wrong with the techniques as they are? The techniques shouldn't be able to be used without any practice because of their obvious rewards.

 

[Takalth]

Why are you people still talking about stuff like WDing. Is it even likely that it will still be in Brawl? I still feel like I have to remind people that most advanced techniques will not be intentional.

Shield Grabbing: Definitely intentional.
Powershielding: Definitely Intentional.
Short Hop: Definitely intentional.
Teching: Definitely intentional.
DI: Definitely intentional.
FastFall: Definitely intentional.
Dash dance: Definitely intentional.

Wavedashing: Wavelanding was definitely intentional (Computers use it sometimes). It's just being used in a different way than originally intended.
Ledgehop: Uses only clearly intentional physics.

L-cancel: It existed in SSB 64, so they certainly allowed it to stay.

Jump/UP+B out of shield: Debatable.

Pivot: Probably not intentional.
Jump-cancelled grabs/upsmashes: Probably not intentional.

I know I missed a few, but you'll have to back up your point if you want it to stay.


EDIT: Also Fawriel, I used to think that would have been a good idea, but the problem is that it ties up your thumb for as long as you want to continue rising. Most likely, that's the reason they didn't make it that way (since almost any other game that lets you vary your jump height uses that system).

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I honnestly can't believe my eyes everytime I read the title of this thread.

 

[Creo]

This thread is kind of pointless. They should not be made easier hencing "advanced techiniques". There you go.

 

[Shadow Calibur]

As much as I want to hone advanced techs in Brawl, I sure as h*** DO NOT want those kinds of things easier.

 

[Evil E.]

No!

Why would you want them easier??

Then there would be no pros

DUH!

Every one would play on the same level

Which makes the pros more pro-E -er

 

[Mr.GAW]

Hell isn't a blocked word, Shadow Calibur. Just so you know.

 

[ph00tbag]

I know I missed a few, but you'll have to back up your point if you want it to stay.

Good thing for me you haven't really touched my point, which is that of the actual advanced techniques, that is the ones that only show in the play of the most dedicated smashers, the ones that require hours in Training mode developing the muscle memory to utilize consistently, the vast majority will be unintentional.

You've covered a lot of the most basic of the so-called "advanced techniques," which are only included because they aren't available in the original documentation. Most of these require no actual practice to utilize, like fast-falling, or jumping out of shield. Shield-grabbing is actually not an advanced technique, seeing as how anyone can put two and two together from the HtP video's advice to press A and the shield button to grab.

The problem is, while most of these are intentional, they're also easier than picking your nose, because the designers could dictate their difficulty. In fact, I don't think I go too far in saying that L-cancelling is the most difficult intentional technique in the game, and it's only so hard.

Let's look at a technique that was not intentional: wavedashing. This move requires that you time your airdodge at the very moment you leave the ground, otherwise it loses effectiveness. Furthermore, to have full control of the wavedash, you need to be able to distinguish between all of the angles and their correlating WD distances. This takes training. You need to teach your muscles how to do the motions reflexively. This is what I'm talking about when I made my point. This technique was very definitely not intentional, and thus the designers couldn't dictate its difficulty. This is why it's considered hard.

I could pick something more obscure, but suffice to say, they only get harder.

So the Advanced Techniques that the designers can dictate the difficulty of can't be any easier, because they're easy already, and the unintentional ones whose difficulty is out of their hands obviously cannot be made any easier.

 

[Takalth]

Okay. I have a better idea of what you're saying, but I'm still not convinced that they are going to try to remove them. It's likely that l-cancelling was unintentional in SSB64, but maybe they liked it, as it enhanced the game's ability for competitive play. It's likely that wavedashing will be the same situation.

By the way, L-cancel definitely is not the hardest intentional advanced technique. Powershielding or Smash DI would carry that title. Short hopping with certain characters (Samus, fox, others) is also much harder.

 

[Wolf_FTW]

Ok here we go,
1) you cant really make wavedashing easier because of the way its performed...you cant take it out unless they take away air dodge otherwise the game would be glitchy.
2)short hopping...ok they can make this easier if they increased the time you can hold the jump button down but if they did this then you would be doing undersiable short hops sometimes.
3)The Pivot you cant make easier because of the way its performed because the frame you r standing strait is like when your not moveing so you can perform a smash attack.
4)Dash dancing you cant take out otherwise there would be a huge amount of lag time with your dashes.
These moves cant be made easier without takeing aspects of the game out. If you REALLY wanted to do these techs. you would practice. there not that hard

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also if you increased the time you could hold down the jump button for short hops then everyones jumps would be slower and wavedashing would be harder. Imagine if everyones wavedashes were as hard as bowser's just because you wanted to be lazy on the short hop.

 

[I feel asleep]

if they made them easier they wouldn't be 'advanced' now would they?

i would personally dislike it if they made them easier to do, for several reasons.

1:-learning curve, these techniques give the player who practices them an advantage over the players who don't. therefor, if they made them easier to do, any scrub could potentially beat someone who has spent far more time and dedication in the game, just by pushing a few buttons. which honestly, should not happen.

2:-as i said earlier, advanced techniques would not be advanced if they were simple. not everyone is meant to become a pro.

3:-if they change it at all, it would slightly alienate a greater portion of the smash comunity for a while.

what i think they should do is just list the techniques in the instruction manual and/or the training video. then its your own fault if you don't know what the technique is. and if you can't do it, again, it is your own fault.

 

[BigRick]

-learning curve, these techniques give the player who practices them an advantage over the players who don't. therefor, if they made them easier to do, any scrub could potentially beat someone who has spent far more time and dedication in the game, just by pushing a few buttons. which honestly, should not happen.

This argument is stupid. A newbie to a game isn't automatically a scrub, and he deserves to be able to kick an experienced player's *** if he's simply better than him.

This isn't WoW guys... time spent played shouldn't automatically equal skill

 

[ph00tbag]

Okay. I have a better idea of what you're saying, but I'm still not convinced that they are going to try to remove them. It's likely that l-cancelling was unintentional in SSB64, but maybe they liked it, as it enhanced the game's ability for competitive play. It's likely that wavedashing will be the same situation.

I'm not saying they'll remove them. Although with many of them, I highly doubt they'll keep them. In the case of wavedashing, the speculation is that rolling will be taking on several aspects of the wavedash, thus reducing the advanced technique's utility. They might take it out and replace it with the modified roll.

Regardless, I predict that the most useful advanced techniques will be unforseen by anyone, and thus asking the designers to make them easier is like asking someone to wipe off the spot on the back of their neck.

By the way, L-cancel definitely is not the hardest intentional advanced technique. Powershielding or Smash DI would carry that title. Short hopping with certain characters (Samus, fox, others) is also much harder.

Fair enough on Powershielding and smash DI, although short hopping with Samus isn't that hard. I'm not sure, though, that the designers intended that these techniques be used with the explicit intent to use them. That is, we aren't expected to wait for a projectile to come up, then put up our sheild at just the right time. We are expected to get some close calls, though. Smash DI could also possibly be put in this area.

 

[I feel asleep]

This argument is stupid. A newbie to a game isn't automatically a scrub, and he deserves to be able to kick an experienced player's *** if he's simply better than him.

This isn't WoW guys... time spent played shouldn't automatically equal skill

did i state the word 'newbie' once? no. i said 'scrub' big difference.

all i was saying is that people who spend the time to practice said techniques have an advantage over the people who don't simply because they spend the time to learn them.
by making them easier it would just reduce the red line that seperates 'bad' from 'good'

also, how does spending time practicing a game=WoW????? back in the days of virtua fighter 1, people spent days and days learning the timing and execution of techniques....so obviously, virtua fighter, or any other game that actually takes time to get decent at is WoW?? logic denied. also, i never stated that 'this guy plays more he's automatically better' time spent=skill is not true. but time spent=feel for the game. thats a different story

please try to think before you say something is stupid.

 

[Fawriel]

This actually raises an interesting moral question. *grins*
What is more important, effort or talent? Should an absolute moron be able to beat awesome tacticians and whatnot because they trained for years and years? Should talent, which is something one is born with and thus not responsible for, be the deciding factor? Nobody wants to lose to an idiot, but on the other hand, working hard is a virtue. Putting it like this, Advanced Techniques being hard seems more morally sound ( and also like a decent compromise considering that smart and talented people generally pick up stuff more quickly ).

Now if there was a system that favors people who are simply cool, that would be morally awesome, but something tells me we don't have the technology for that...

 

[Problem2]

If it's easier, it will become used more universally which may give more time for building strategy and mindgames.

 

[rsc_390]

I think Advanced Techniques are a good thing because apart from MAYBE a few that require really fast fingers (I honestly can't think of any at the moment lol), anyone can learn them with practice.

They're good because they separate those with and without dedication. Perhaps learning certain adv. techniques will be easier for some (I learned wavedashing very quickly, but I still occasionally have trouble Fast Falling SHFFL attacks when I connect them, because the hitlag throws me off).

I guarantee that all who put a good amount of effort to learning a technique will succeed. For those who are having massive trouble, chances are you're doing something wrong. I had the wrong instructions for wavedashing way back when, and I almost gave up trying to learn adv. techniques after failing at them.

Honestly, I don't want to go to tournaments with people who aren't very dedicated to the game.

 

[BigRick]

After seeing some comments posted here I feel that some ppl like advanced techniques for the wrong reasons... I have nothing against ppl that bash scrubs and stuff, but watch out your words because some of you may act like scrubs in the process...

- Scrubs will usually complain about advanced techniques because they give an ''unfair'' advantage to the guy that uses them.

- In this thread I see scrubs that complain against the removal of advanced techniques because it is ''unfair'' that ''morons'' without ''dedication'' can beat ''awesome tacticians''. Omg this ''should not happen''...

To every1 that says that advanced techs makes the difference between good and bad, I tell you guys that you are very wrong. Advanced techs only makes a difference between bad and less bad... so all those arguments about ''time'', ''dedication'' and ''effort'' shouldn't be brought on the table in the first place. If you talk about this stuff instead of game mechanics, than you're no better than the scrub and his ''honor'', because now you guys are putting some kind of ''honor'' in learning and using the said ''cheap tactics''.

Scrub 1: ZOMG YOU WAVEDASH THAT **** IS UNFAIR!!!
Scrub 2: ZOMG HE DOESN'T WAVEDASH JUST C-STICK ALL TIME!!! HE DOESNT DESERVE THE WIN!!!

EDIT: Also lots of points to ph00tbag, didn't read all your posts but I like some of the things that you pointed out.

 

[BigRick]

w00t! looks like I won this thread.

 

[Fawriel]

I can only agree with that assessment. A WINNER IS YOU

 

[Keta]

Nothing is cheap, do what it takes to win imo. ..but having the advanced techniques allows for so much more depth in the game. Also, everyone has gotten so use to using them. It would suck to not have them, but it would be easy to get use to.