Would it be better if they made the Advanced Technicues easier?

[SmashChu]

No,it doesn't.

You can WD all day with a character,it won't help you win at all.It depends on how you use it.And the typical"I think WD is unfair" arguement is getting really old.

Ywes, it does. Just being able to do it gives you an unfair advantage. Now you can move faster as well as move in and out of attacks easier. While I don't beleive in tiers, one can argue that WD started it. Fox can wavedash into a shine. While, that alone isn't much, adding it with a combo means alot. Marth is another eample. This speed up and his fast >smash gives him the ability to strike quick and efficiant. It puts some characters at an unfair advantage and makes fast characters faster.

Also, it's unnatural, and feels to much like a glitch anyway. Also, with online it puts the WDers at an advantage. Much like snaking ion MKDS you probobly don't know when they are doing it. And I assum some players would be confused as they wouldn't even know what it is.

Now, I beleive that L-canceeling and short jumps should be added into the player manual. They aren't the most complex, and aren't an advancement on previous actions. They're basic, just most people don'tt know about them.

 

[Wolf_FTW]

Absolutly dont make them easier then they are. I think stuff like WD and L canceling added alot to melee and should not be taken out. I think that by makeing the adv. moves hard to learn made it more fun because it takes time. I dont want to turn on brawl and have everyone right at the start being able to wave dash and stuff like that. The Techs are advance for a reason

 

[Chromeless]

Absolutly dont make them easier then they are. I think stuff like WD and L canceling added alot to melee and should not be taken out. I think that by makeing the adv. moves hard to learn made it more fun because it takes time. I dont want to turn on brawl and have everyone right at the start being able to wave dash and stuff like that. The Techs are advance for a reason

The fact that it takes time to learn them is exactly why I want to make them obvious and simple, it is simply not fun for me (and I'm sure for many others) to 'learn' moves the could just as easily be put into practice in the blink of an eye. The only reason techs are 'advanced' is because Nintendo didn't completely consider how we were going to put them into practice, if they were aware of WDing from the start I can assure you that it would be much easier to pull off, and with good reason.

I would absolutely hate it if I started to play online brawl and found that no-one WDed, because it is simply boring to fight people who do not know how to do the basics of the compeditive game. It is not fun for me, not fun for my opponent and on top of that, neither of us will end up learning anything from the fight exept that one of the contenders needs to learn some super secret advanced technique that other people have known about for years...


The 'advanced' techs are the most basic fundamentals of the game as it currently stands, combos and finishing attacks are the only things that should ligitimately be advanced. If a noob can wavedash around and beat you, then you just suck and have no excuse.

 

[RoyOhBoy]

The fact that it takes time to learn them is exactly why I want to make them obvious and simple, it is simply not fun for me (and I'm sure for many others) to 'learn' moves the could just as easily be put into practice in the blink of an eye. The only reason techs are 'advanced' is because Nintendo didn't completely consider how we were going to put them into practice, if they were aware of WDing from the start I can assure you that it would be much easier to pull off, and with good reason.

I would absolutely hate it if I started to play online brawl and found that no-one WDed, because it is simply boring to fight people who do not know how to do the basics of the compeditive game. It is not fun for me, not fun for my opponent and on top of that, neither of us will end up learning anything from the fight exept that one of the contenders needs to learn some super secret advanced technique that other people have known about for years...


The 'advanced' techs are the most basic fundamentals of the game as it currently stands, combos and finishing attacks are the only things that should ligitimately be advanced. If a noob can wavedash around and beat you, then you just suck and have no excuse.

wow you're an idiot, When u can't do something....don't talk about making it easier

 

[Wolf_FTW]

It is a fact that most of the advanced techs are gliches in the game, and honestly i think if nintendo did know about it they would have just taken it out or fixed it. and how secret do u think the moves are i mean you go on youtube and theres over 100 vids telln you how to do them. If you really wanted to know how to do it you would learn it

 

[Takalth]

Ywes, it does. Just being able to do it gives you an unfair advantage. Now you can move faster as well as move in and out of attacks easier. While I don't beleive in tiers, one can argue that WD started it. Fox can wavedash into a shine. While, that alone isn't much, adding it with a combo means alot. Marth is another eample. This speed up and his fast >smash gives him the ability to strike quick and efficiant. It puts some characters at an unfair advantage and makes fast characters faster.

Also, it's unnatural, and feels to much like a glitch anyway. Also, with online it puts the WDers at an advantage. Much like snaking ion MKDS you probobly don't know when they are doing it. And I assum some players would be confused as they wouldn't even know what it is.

Now, I beleive that L-canceeling and short jumps should be added into the player manual. They aren't the most complex, and aren't an advancement on previous actions. They're basic, just most people don'tt know about them.

Wow, where to start...
"I don't believe in tiers:"
You certainly need to do some proving for that one when the same characters consistently win tournaments. The argument that it's just the characters that most people play fails because link would be at the top and Ice Climbers at the bottom if that was the case.

"While I don't believe in tiers, one can argue that WD started it"
Peach has quite possibly the worst wavedash in the game, and she's fifth. Falco's wavedash is certainly in the lower half for value, and he's second. Ken rarely wavedashes and he's one of the very top players.

"Fox can wavedash into a shine"
Yes, but any character can wavedash into any ground move. The powerful part is wavedashing OUT of a shine.

"and makes fast characters faster"
You forgot to mention that it also makes slow characters faster.

Essentially, you are among those who have taken on the theory that wavedash=competitive play. I see them on both sides (both people that think the game will suck without wavedashing and those who blame wavedashing when they get beaten by somebody who's simply better). Wavedashing is a useful technique but too many people vastly overrate it. If you took it out, Smash would have nearly the same capacity to be an ultra-competitive game. Good players would still own the crappy ones (who would have less of an excuse), and the tier list woul still run strong. The exact order of the tier list would change, but it would have just as much influence on the game.

 

[Wolf_FTW]

i agree with takalth wave dashing=competitive play. If you think wavedashing is cauzing chars to be better your wrong its how the people use it. If you think the reason why you lose is cause you cant wave dash LEARN IT its not that hard. Even if you do learn it it means nothing. After a couple of years of wavedashn my friend got fed up and learned it... U know what happend nothing. Wave dashing isnt the reason why you lose

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Ywes, it does. Just being able to do it gives you an unfair advantage. Now you can move faster as well as move in and out of attacks easier. While I don't beleive in tiers, one can argue that WD started it. Fox can wavedash into a shine. While, that alone isn't much, adding it with a combo means alot. Marth is another eample. This speed up and his fast >smash gives him the ability to strike quick and efficiant. It puts some characters at an unfair advantage and makes fast characters faster.

Wow,you're just completely clueless.

For one,JC shines are use more than Waveshines because you can get out of an attack quicker,then you can space yourself.Waveshines are only used for follow ups for combo's or grabs.

F-throw>WaveDash>F-smash only workd when your opponent doesn't tech or tech in the right direction.If your opponent techs toward you,he can avoid the tip.But proper reading you can easily WD back though.

It really doesn't matter if your opponent knows how to WD,because if you are simply trying to avoid attacks,it will eventually get predictable,and you will get stocked if you don't change your battle tactics.

I bet you never even been to a tournament in your life,so I would just wait before you make more false assumptions.

Also, it's unnatural, and feels to much like a glitch anyway. Also, with online it puts the WDers at an advantage. Much like snaking ion MKDS you probobly don't know when they are doing it. And I assum some players would be confused as they wouldn't even know what it is.

Now, I beleive that L-canceeling and short jumps should be added into the player manual. They aren't the most complex, and aren't an advancement on previous actions. They're basic, just most people don'tt know about them.

I really don't want to say anything about this,it would just be reiterating myself again.

I'm just going to conclude that you are an idiot.

 

[Kazuya]

They wouldn't be advanced then would they?

 

[Foxman15]

I hope that the "advanced techniques" will be different in Brawl in comparison to Melee. By different I mean different to perform, as well new aspects being created. This will make Brawl more interesting, especially at the launch, because it will make everyone figure and get used to the new tactics and fighting adaptation that is needed converting to the new game.

 

[Kazuya]

Ican WD, but prefer just to run like mad an kill - it's HOW you prefer to play. When playing in tournys I WD when I feel its nesacerry, avoid an attack, get to my opponent quicker, start up a combo - but in normal play with friends, WD doesn't ever happen unless Iwanna show off.

Point is, they're Advanced Techniques because you're supposed to take time ot learn how to perform them. I would hate it if someone who'd never played an SSB game before could pick it up an WD aroud the arena an make me look like a donkey, when I'm clearly a Steed

 

[Mr.GAW]

Smashchu, I disagree. Mostly with the unnatural part. Playing Luigi and wavedashing is- to me, the most natural thing in smash. It is smooth, fluent, and useful.

 

[chaddd]

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

"If they made the ADVANCED techniques EASIER."

I am so very confused. Wouldn't that make them 'Easy Techniques'?

I wonder why people consider all this stuff advanced, as though they were actually harder than everything else in the game. What makes it advanced is that it takes all the simple techniques and puts them together. This is where you have to practice. Even techniques considered 'easy' in a game still have to be practiced thousands of times in order to come anywhere the level of mastered. But making the advanced part of a game easier would defeat the competitiveness of the game. User-friendly games very rarely make it into the stages of tournaments and such.

Besides, a word like 'advanced' is entirely relative. To all who understand the previous statement, GOOD JOB. You're probably already on your way to making this game your b*tch.

 

[ph00tbag]

The question makes no sense. First of all, L-cancelling, fast-falling and short hopping can't be made any easier or harder, except by changing the character's physics, or the game speed. L-cancelling could be made easier by making it like teching, where you can tap L just before you land as well, but I doubt that's going to happen. Fast-falling is stupidly simple. Short hopping can only be made easier by lengthening a character's jump animation. Take a look at the high tier characters. How many of them have very long jump animations? Maybe there's a correlation.

Second of all, Many advanced techniques are not "made" to be hard. WDing wasn't even intentional. Pivoting probably wasn't even foreseen, at least not as something a human player would be capable of performing consistently. There are a whole lot of advanced techs that aren't actually difficult (well, pivoting is actually pretty difficult), but since most of them either weren't intended or weren't expected to be used, the difficulty that went into their design is non-existent, because their design itself is non-existent.

Brawl will be exactly the same. There will be a slew of things that people can do with the game that the designers never intended, and these will be advanced techniques. The designers, not even foreseeing them, will be completely unable to dictate their difficulty. Furthermore, the techniques that they do intend will be like in Melee: stupidly easy, as long as you're willing to devote the time to developing the necessary muscle memory.

So stop dreaming of a day when you can beat Ken because Sakurai made L-cancelling easier, unless you're willing to practice them and get good at them.

 

[Fawriel]

Second of all, Many advanced techniques are not "made" to be hard. WDing wasn't even intentional. Pivoting probably wasn't even foreseen, at least not as something a human player would be capable of performing consistently. There are a whole lot of advanced techs that aren't actually difficult (well, pivoting is actually pretty difficult), but since most of them either weren't intended or weren't expected to be used, the difficulty that went into their design is non-existent, because their design itself is non-existent.

Whoopdeedoo, an intelligent argument.
A bunch of people here need to stop thinking that "your an idiot" is a valid argument.

I still disagree that some of the advanced techniques are *supposed* to be hard. It's still a fact that you need to be able to use it well, not just use it. The last sentence of the above post ( "So stop dreaming of a day when you can beat Ken because Sakurai made L-cancelling easier, unless you're willing to practice them and get good at them." ) makes no sense at all, because Ken will have an even easier time using advanced techniques and will thus remain better. For the lower-leveled Smash community, it just means more serious competition. I don't see why I have to work so rigorously on my muscle memory just in order to have fun playing people from this community.
And Chromeless said it quite correctly: "If a noob can wavedash around and beat you, then you just suck and have no excuse."

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Whoopdeedoo, an intelligent argument.
A bunch of people here need to stop thinking that "your an idiot" is a valid argument.

I still disagree that some of the advanced techniques are *supposed* to be hard. It's still a fact that you need to be able to use it well, not just use it. The last sentence of the above post ( "So stop dreaming of a day when you can beat Ken because Sakurai made L-cancelling easier, unless you're willing to practice them and get good at them." ) makes no sense at all, because Ken will have an even easier time using advanced techniques and will thus remain better. For the lower-leveled Smash community, it just means more serious competition. I don't see why I have to work so rigorously on my muscle memory just in order to have fun playing people from this community.
And Chromeless said it quite correctly: "If a noob can wavedash around and beat you, then you just suck and have no excuse."

1.You actually do not have to learn the techniques,you can play your own way.

2.The professionals will not play you for FUN.Sure,a tournament is fun,but it isn't the main intention of the players.

Why do you think that you deserve to compete in high level play without work? It's like asking the school board to let you graduate high school,but you don't want to earn the credits.

 

[Fawriel]

I wasn't talking about tournaments. I'm talking about, for example, online play. Or just playing in general. There's not a lot of Smashers here in Germany. Anyone I could play against either has no skill at all or is a professional. Easily creaming someone or easily being creamed are no fun. I could probably get better thanks to the experience of playing against a good player, but I'd actually need to work months on learning the techniques for a *video game* before this experience does me any good. If we're going to throw about stupid analogies, that's as if someone wrote an awesome book that you first have to learn the fictional language it was written in for to read.

 

[Kazuya]

You can't change the controls from normal play to online play - its simply impossible and would just cause confusion.

No offense, but I think this thread is pretty ignorant and useless. (You can work out for yourself why I called it ignorant).

Sorry bro.

 

[Fawriel]

...did anyone even suggest that?

 

[End Game]

I say "dont fix something that isnt broken. You dont have to learn the advanced techniques, no one does. Why? because no one can make you. Now, if you want to learn advanced techniques and you cant because they are a bit difficult, then thats a whole different story.

I say keep them just as hard -or easy, depending oh who you ask- as they are now.

 

[Takalth]

I wasn't talking about tournaments. I'm talking about, for example, online play. Or just playing in general. There's not a lot of Smashers here in Germany. Anyone I could play against either has no skill at all or is a professional. Easily creaming someone or easily being creamed are no fun. I could probably get better thanks to the experience of playing against a good player, but I'd actually need to work months on learning the techniques for a *video game* before this experience does me any good. If we're going to throw about stupid analogies, that's as if someone wrote an awesome book that you first have to learn the fictional language it was written in for to read.

The problem with your theory is that killing competitive play wouldn't make all of the competitive smashers into casual smashers. It would make all of the competitive smashers look for fun in different games, which means that you still wouldn't have a significant increase in the number of people you can play against. If not for the competitive side of Smash, my gamecube would have been listed on ebay about 3 years ago.

 

[Fawriel]

.... when did I say anything about killing competitive play? Jesus Christ...

 

[Takalth]

.... when did I say anything about killing competitive play? Jesus Christ...

You're talking about the problem of not being able to compete against people unless you log a lot of time into the game. The only way to solve that is to kill competitive play, because otherwise, there will always be people who will spend a lot of time mastering the game and thoroughly cream those who haven't.

A game doesn't have real competitive play if 20 hours of playing time will put you on the same level as people who have logged in hundreds.

 

[Fawriel]

Advanced Techniques != skill level

 

[OysterMeister]

People who log hundreds of hours into a game should always be able to beat people of the same general skill level who only log in dozens. Making what we now call the advanced techs any easier (which is a good idea) won't change this.
Here's my argument:
Marth has a sword, and a sweet spot on the end of that sword. Hitting with the sweetspot takes skill in that you have to have the proper spacing and timing. Attack too soon or too late and you don't hit with the sweet spot, agreed? Now, both a noob and a veteran have full access to being able to use the sweetspot, but the veteran will STILL be better than the noob because he's got his spacing and timing down to a science, and will hit with the sweetspot almost constantly, whereas the noob doesn't really know what he's doing and will hit with the sweetspot pretty much out of luck. The skill in useing Marth's sweetspot comes not from being able to do a move, but from knowing when and how a move should be used.
And I think most of the regular techniques are the same way. Skill and victory comes from timing and strategy, not from being able to use a move that your opponent can't/doesn't know about.
And once you can actualy pull off the advanced techs isn't this still the same picture? Doesn't the peron who knows when it's the right time to wavedash win against the person who wavedashes erraticaly and without reason? Both can wavedash, but the person who knows how TO USE THE WAVEDASH beats the guy who only knows HOW to wavedash, am I correct here?
I think skill in smash bros, advanced or otherwise, is based on timing and planning, and thus I am not threatened by the idea of everybody being able to use advanced techs. In fact, I welcome it. I don't want to win just because I have access to more of the game, I want to win because I'm better at the game.
Doesn't anybody else feel the same way about this?

 

[Takalth]

Advanced Techniques != skill level

First of all, advanced techniques partially equal skill level. The total competitive value of the game would go down if they were all taken out, because it would leave fewer options and less depth in the game. Certainly there's a fairly high degree of skill one can obtain without advanced techniques, but after a couple hundred hours of competitive play, you would hit a point where you couldn't really get any better, which would mean that tens of thousands of people would all be reasonable candidates for "best player in the world" which certainly wouldn't make it much of a competitive game.

However, even if it wasn't the case, removing advanced techniques still doesn't solve the problem you stated above. People who devote themselves to getting extremely good at the game would still cream you and people who don't try to get good would still get creamed by you.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

@Fawriel: You still don't understand,you cannot automaticaly succeed in everything.

If you want to be successful,you should earn it.It's not that advanced techniques are the peak of absolute skill in smash,it's just that they shouldn't be used so rampantly when one doesn't know how to use them correctly.

If not,that would only hinder your skill in the game,as it did for me when I first tried to implement more"Technique" in my playing style.

 

[Fawriel]

I fully agree with you, Oyster.
Takalth, again, I never said anything about taking out advanced techniques. But whatever. I guess we're just of different opinions.
And yes, a better player would still cream me without advanced techniques, but if both of us were either not using them or if both of us had access to them, I could actually learn something from it. If I can't use those techniques yet and my opponent is of the advancedly technical persuasion, I won't even be able to touch them, which won't let me learn anything.
But whatever, I guess it's just a matter of preference.
And as I said, in the end, stuff WILL apparently be easier to pull off since Sakurai is aiming for "moderated speed", which equals "easier timing" and "more time to use your head". So I'll be good. *yawns and quits argument*

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Guys, Smash Brothers isn't a game about trying to do complicated controller motions in order to get off some variety of large fast combo attack. Its oriented on placement more than anything else and making the timing a little more forgiving on wave dashing and L canceling isn't going to ruin any pro's game. All it would do is make the motions quicker to adapt to for newcomers to the series so that they could accelerate their adaptation to advanced play. It wouldn't throw off the curve of better players being better at the game or anything silly like that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

People who log hundreds of hours into a game should always be able to beat people of the same general skill level who only log in dozens. Making what we now call the advanced techs any easier (which is a good idea) won't change this.
Here's my argument:
Marth has a sword, and a sweet spot on the end of that sword. Hitting with the sweetspot takes skill in that you have to have the proper spacing and timing. Attack too soon or too late and you don't hit with the sweet spot, agreed? Now, both a noob and a veteran have full access to being able to use the sweetspot, but the veteran will STILL be better than the noob because he's got his spacing and timing down to a science, and will hit with the sweetspot almost constantly, whereas the noob doesn't really know what he's doing and will hit with the sweetspot pretty much out of luck. The skill in useing Marth's sweetspot comes not from being able to do a move, but from knowing when and how a move should be used.
And I think most of the regular techniques are the same way. Skill and victory comes from timing and strategy, not from being able to use a move that your opponent can't/doesn't know about.
And once you can actualy pull off the advanced techs isn't this still the same picture? Doesn't the peron who knows when it's the right time to wavedash win against the person who wavedashes erraticaly and without reason? Both can wavedash, but the person who knows how TO USE THE WAVEDASH beats the guy who only knows HOW to wavedash, am I correct here?
I think skill in smash bros, advanced or otherwise, is based on timing and planning, and thus I am not threatened by the idea of everybody being able to use advanced techs. In fact, I welcome it. I don't want to win just because I have access to more of the game, I want to win because I'm better at the game.
Doesn't anybody else feel the same way about this?

If that's true then they should make Marth's sweetspot much bigger so that it's easier to use? Are you out of your mind?! As it is everyone has equal access to the "advance techniques" and in fact the most widely used ones take no more than a few hours of practicing. L-canceling is extremely easy already, all you have to do is hit L before you land. My little sister can do it after 30 minutes of practicing. If you make it any easier than the game is no longer worth even practicing. What do you do when there's no one to practice against or all the peeple around you suck? You polish your techskill so that you don't get rusty. I agree 100% that smashbros is based on timing and guess what tech skill is. TIMING!
The planing part is MINDGAMES! They are seperate catagories and need to be treated as such. Each catagory needs room to grow in order to make the game more fun and worth getting better at. If you get rid of the advance techs then you cut out a large part of the TIMING section and thus cut a large part of the game.

 

[Sundown]

Whats the deal with all these WDashing feels unnatural bull****? I really dont get it.. how does it "feel" unnatural?, and what the hell is natural about this game?

You know, in a real fight, you actually dash in and away to make your opponent miss, to faint him/her, etc., when your opponent attacks you in a fight, you dash away from the attack, you dont turn around and run, so actually, if you look at it from that perspective, wavedashing isnt unnatural at all, it is the CORRECT movement that should be used to avoid your opponents attacks, it doesnt matter how the wavedash is performed, what matters is the outcome, which is a fast dash in/out that is used not only in like every fighting game, but also in real life...

I dont get the "unnatural" feel of wavedashing people talk about

 

[OysterMeister]

If that's true then they should make Marth's sweetspot much bigger so that it's easier to use? Are you out of your mind?! As it is everyone has equal access to the "advance techniques" and in fact the most widely used ones take no more than a few hours of practicing. L-canceling is extremely easy already, all you have to do is hit L before you land. My little sister can do it after 30 minutes of practicing. If you make it any easier than the game is no longer worth even practicing. What do you do when there's no one to practice against or all the peeple around you suck? You polish your techskill so that you don't get rusty. I agree 100% that smashbros is based on timing and guess what tech skill is. TIMING!
The planing part is MINDGAMES! They are seperate catagories and need to be treated as such. Each catagory needs room to grow in order to make the game more fun and worth getting better at. If you get rid of the advance techs then you cut out a large part of the TIMING section and thus cut a large part of the game.

...what? Oh, wait, I get it. You missundersand me. Well, whatever, that happens. Easy to do.
One big point: based on your use of the words "get rid of advanced techs" you seem to think that I'm in favor of removing advanced techs. This is wrong. You're wrong. I don't think that and never said it. Anyway, now that that's behind us...

I used the Marth example as my way of showing how I think advanced techs should work. I mean, anyone can do a sword attack with Marth, right? That means that anyone could theoreticaly hit with the tip of the blade as well. The sweetspot is avaliable to all, all you need is the skill required to make sure that the opponent is hit by the tip of the sword, which is a skill set apart from the initial execution of the move. Now an advanced tech like samus' super wavedash.... how many people can pull that of? Less people than can hit someone with Marth's sweetspot, wouldn't you say? If that's true (and it is) then you'll admit that not everyone has access to advanced techniques, because not everyone can pull them off.
Now I'm not saying that the advanced techs should be as easy as pressing A, don't think that. But I am saying that they should be easier than they are now, so that more people can use them.

I think there's a fundamental difference in how we're defining "timing". When you say "timing", it sounds like you mean button presses. As in 'advanced techs are all about timing'. Your timing is seperate from mindgames (your words, not mine). When I say timing, I mean timing of moves. As in 'using the counter is all about timing' Timing as I mean it goes hand in hand with placement and mindgames, and is really just another side of the same elegant gameplay coin.
Marth's sword needs no improvement because it only takes timing (my definition: includes placement) to unlock the power of the sweetspot. Everyone can still attack with Marth, there's no difficulty in performing the move. The skill come from how you do it. Samus' super wavedash, on the other hand, should be easier because it requires timing (your definition: means button presses) to execute. Skill in how Samus' super wavedash is used plays second fiddle to the skill it takes in just being able to do the move in the first place.
That's what I'm saying should be minimized. The idea that a move requires skill to execute goes against the grain of what smash bros is. The skill should be in how a move is used, so to do this the move needs to be almost a no-brainer to perform.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Which advance techs in particular are you thinking of making easier? I was under the impression that the super wave dash was actually a glitch and that if they were to keep it in brawl then it would be made into a simpler technique anyway. It would have to be harder than the other techniques to some extent due to the larger reward of mastering it.

I guess our definitions of timing differ quite a bit. In my opinion, timing doesn't include placement because that would fall under spacing. I think that we should keep the advance techs at the same difficulty, but include instructions for them in the game booklet and in the instruction movie.

I think that the advance techs deserve to be difficult due to the reward that they bring when utilized. Imagine if every fox could drill shine infinite without even practicing or if Marth could pivot within a window of 10 frames.

If the "advance" techniques took no practicing then they wouldn't be "advance." It's not an unfair advantage, it's a reward for hard (not really all that hard) work that the other player wasn't willing to put in.

 

[Takalth]

One of the difficulties of making advanced techs easy to perform and including them in the instruction book is that it will make the game less accessible. It won't hurt veterans of SSBM, but new players or those who only played Melee at a very casual level will be intimidated by a wide array of moves and the more complicated controls (press y to short hop or x to full jump. Press L+over to wavedash or R to shield, etc.).

As it is in Melee, casual players can just go with what's in the instructions and have fun with their FFA's. There's no intimidation because everything looks really simple. However, the game loads in a lot of hidden depth (much of which comes through advanced techniques) that is really only intended for players who want a high level of competition.

If you do want that high competition, it really doesn't take all that long to get the main advanced techs down. Practice 10 minutes a day for a couple weeks, make an effort to add them into your normal games, and you'll have them in no time. A few of the really fancy ones like the superwavedash will still be a long ways away, but the core ones (including wavedashing) will be learned quickly.

If you don't want the high competition, there's no reason to play against people who do, unless you like getting 4-stocked and they like doing it to you. Thus, making advanced techniques easier will not be beneficial.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

To put my opinion on the topic question, no.

I wouldn't mind if they added "short hop" to the "how to" or something, but saying "fast fall!" "now do an air move and L cancel to shuffle!!!" cause that would be weird. I like keeping wavedashing as sort of the "secret technique" too, it's fun that way.

Although, us gamers will ALWAYS find a way to use a move, combo, dodge, something, in a way that the game creators didn't design us to. But that is fine. Things will probably be ok, I just hope nobody has godly chain throws or anything infinite or too broken, like a rapid fire Marth f'smash or some BS you know?

But back to topic, I have to say, no it shouldn't be made easier. It's pretty simple, for the most part, just hard on the fingers. Shuffling isn't a very hard concept, nor is wavedashing, or short hop laser, chainthrows, etc.



and @ current discussion : takalth I almost entirely agree with you.

 

[Dark Sonic]

new players or those who only played Melee at a very casual level will be intimidated by a wide array of moves and the more complicated controls (press y to short hop or x to full jump. Press L+over to wavedash or R to shield, etc.)

I don't mean to change the buttons around or any thing like that. I mean find ways to explain advance techniques to a n00b and put that in the instructions. Something like
"Hit L or R right before landing to ...shows computer preform action... L-Cancel!"
"Don't hold L to long...shows computer shield after L-cancel...or this will happen."
"If you let go of X while jumping you can...shows computer preform action...Short Hop"
"Don't keep your finger on the button too long...shows computer full hop...or else you'll full jump"
"Accelerate you decent by pressing down at the top of your jump...pauses and points to computer Mario at the top of his jump, then shows action...to fast fall"
"Try combining techniques to speed up your gameplay...shows computer short hop and pauses...Short Hop...shows computer Nair and pauses...attack...shows computer fastfall...Fast Fall...shows computer after l-cancel and pauses on l-cancel to show reduced lag...L-cancel"
You know, stuff like that to explain it. I don't want to make any of the techniques easier, but I don't want to be the one explaining it to people every time someone asks for a detailed explination of what I'm doing.

 

[The_Famous_SK]

how would they make WD easier?
you sould still have to air dodge as soon as you jump

Hold R for roll, L for wavedash. Or however you want it.

Shuffles and L-cancelling
how can they make these easier?
you would still need a sense of timing to pull these off...

Remove the landing lag. X for jump, Y for short hop.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Would it be better if WD, Shuffles and L-cancelling and such stuff were easier to do in Brawl? I mean, it takes time to master the Advanced Technicues in Melee and therefore, not everyone can become pro. But if they made the Advanced Technicues easier to perform in Brawl, would it be better in that way, or would it be to easy to get good?

Spoiler

Sorry if there's any bad spelling here.

Making it easier would generally make it less useful (read: Slower). There's really no way to make an L cancel easier without extending the frames in which you can do it: Slower, and there's no way to do SH, FF, wavedash, etc., etc., etc., without doing the exact same thing. Besides: Are they still advanced techs if they're easy?

As to the above post, different buttons for SH and normal jump would really screw me over... So much thumb movement... ueeew.

 

[ph00tbag]

Why are you people still talking about stuff like WDing. Is it even likely that it will still be in Brawl? I still feel like I have to remind people that most advanced techniques will not be intentional. Ergo, we first of all don't know what they will be, and second of all no one can dictate their difficulty.

The only advanced technique that I can see carrying over is SHFFLing, and honestly, that can't be made any easier. Sure, they can tell you how to do them in the How To Play video, but that won't help, IMO. The video already tells people how to jump easily, and most beginning players still tap up, and have to struggle to unlearn the bad habit.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Hold R for roll, L for wavedash. Or however you want it.


Remove the landing lag. X for jump, Y for short hop.

If anything,that would make things more difficult because of button memorization.

Can you name me one fighting game that has 2 jump buttons?Seriously,it's rediculous the things that people would do to boast simplicity in a game.