World 8 - The Mario Match-Up Index [8-2: Luigi, Doc]

[Luggy]

After facing some players and seeing the match of Ally at Apex (even though he didn't know the matchup at that time apparently), I think Mario doesn't have a good matchup against the ninja frog. Can someone confirm that or am I simply an idiot who doesn't know his MU ? (The second option is probably the right one.)

 

[Xeze]

I can second that. All good/decent Greninja players I face I either lose or struggle to win.
The matchup is in Greninja's favor, can't say any values though.

 

[Mr.Lee]

Hey guys, I also have problems with sheik. For some reason I am unable to punish anything. Once I get a combo started, my combo gets broken my either N-air or F-air. Sheik can gimp Mario pretty well, but I figure out a way to recover; Sheik will usually B-air when you UpB( solution by teching or by stalling) or they will try to F-air Mario, but that's alittle more predictable or I am just able to react to it better By using cape. If you get juggled off stage watch out for bouncing fish, I can't punish it so I air dodge, and the only thing they can do is either recover or proceed attacking. They will try to B-air after they miss bouncing fish so DI up or you might get stage spiked. The real problem for me is getting up from the ledge. Maybe I am alittle too predictable with my ledge options, but I can't get passed the ledge with Mario.

 

[NairWizard]

Hey guys, I also have problems with sheik. For some reason I am unable to punish anything. Once I get a combo started, my combo gets broken my either N-air or F-air. Sheik can gimp Mario pretty well, but I figure out a way to recover; Sheik will usually B-air when you UpB( solution by teching or by stalling) or they will try to F-air Mario, but that's alittle more predictable or I am just able to react to it better By using cape. If you get juggled off stage watch out for bouncing fish, I can't punish it so I air dodge, and the only thing they can do is either recover or proceed attacking. They will try to B-air after they miss bouncing fish so DI up or you might get stage spiked. The real problem for me is getting up from the ledge. Maybe I am alittle too predictable with my ledge options, but I can't get passed the ledge with Mario.

The reason that you're having difficulty punishing Sheik is that Sheik is difficult to punish. f-air is basically safe on block, and she has very fast, low-end-lag options, such as b-air (which comes out on frame 4, yikes!).

Here are a few tips for you:

• Try to sweetspot the ledge with your up-b; if you time it correctly Sheik usually won't be able to intercept and kill you. She can ledge trump b-air you, but you can play mix-up mindgames with her here by getting up before she can ledge trump (her on-stage options are not as scary as her b-air, but watch out for Vanish because she can Vanish at the edge and just grab the ledge for safety, and Vanish will destroy you--best to avoid the ledge roll option, therefore).
• You can punish Sheik when she hits your shield with your up-b, making Mario one of the best characters at punishing Sheik in the game. Even slight misspacing on her part results in her getting clobbered here
• Don't shield Bouncing Fish on the ground, as that gives Sheik a bounceback and that's safe. Try spotdodging or just walking out of its range, then pivot f-smash or up-smash to punish it.
• Sheik's f-air outspaces n-air so try not to just throw out n-airs in neutral, even though that's a great strategy in many MUs
• Sheik is a fastfaller with a humanoid frame, so maximize your punishes on her (don't let her go until you get every last % you can squeeze out of her from your combos!)

 

[Ffamran]

But your challenger is in another world!

Hello, Mario players, the Falco boards restarted their Mario match up discussion. Link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-match-up-discussion-01-mario-redux-edition.392988/.

The original thread by Legend Vermillion had Mario and Dr. Mario together and that would be too confusing, especially since they don't play like each other. Here's the original thread which you can look through: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-01-dr-mario-mario.370768/.

 

[Mr.Lee]

OK so... I have another bad match up and it wasn't too hard till today at a tourney. Rosie and Luma K.O.'ed me %58 on Smashville with U-air.

Once luma is gone it's not too hard to combo Rosie, but her D-air is freakin ridiculous, It's the only move that actually causes problems when making combos(imo) her F-air is kind of high up that it usually doesn't hit, but since Mario's combos more than often send the opponent up, Rosie's D-air is in my face.

Stopping Rosie from getting to the ledge is not too hard since N-air last forever and hitting her big head before the ledge invincibility frames start isn't so hard.

The only problem I have is getting in with that luma in the way. I know back throw knocks luma away, but just getting past the wall of luma is a challenge that really shouldn't be so difficult. I know N-air goes through some of luma's attacks but I didn't want to try and test anything during my tourney match. I lost with my Mario. Afterwards I switched to DDD, who I also play and won with, but I want to be able to win with Mario in this match up. help?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Rosalina is def hard if they space carefully, and when juggling her you kinda need to hit a bit from the side usually.

@ NairWizard Custom Charizard is really hard for Mario...it's basically the DK matchup all over again when he takes the custom Rock Smash that gives him frame 1 Super Armor (you can grab this, but still it's annoying). You're forced into not using your better strings, and he has a better command over neutral with Dragon Rush and better reward overall.

The good news is, Scalding FLUDD easily beats Dragon Rush, and Fast Fireballs can clank with it as well. Just in close midrange spacing wars and when he's juggling you, it gets really scary. I also haven't learned to punish it on block quite yet.

Atm I think the best set against Custom Charizard is 2312. Gust Cape is also very helpful for resetting spacing so you can charge Scalding FLUDD, and Up-B1 seems most reliable for combos, and recovery here overall.

Alternatively 2332 could possibly work if you use EJP strictly for damage dealing.

 

[they_want_my_soul]

I played a Rosalina + Luma last night who played an extremely conservative distance based style. Jokingly, I started blasting the Luma w/ fireballs. I gave up after 4 or 5, but now I'm curious--can you kill a Luma w/ fireballs?

 

[Ffamran]

You can kill Luma with basically anything. It's more about how much damage and knockback you can do to it. So, Mario's Fireball would take longer than his Side Smash.

 

[meleebrawler]

Like Master Shadow, it basically has both health and damage percentage. When undamaged
it doesn't fly as far, so the best Luma killing moves tend to have high base knockback (like Falcon multi-jab
finisher).

 

[Gidy]

I played a Rosalina + Luma last night who played an extremely conservative distance based style. Jokingly, I started blasting the Luma w/ fireballs. I gave up after 4 or 5, but now I'm curious--can you kill a Luma w/ fireballs?

Back throw works really well against Rosalina and Luma. It knocks Luma away and it may even get him off the stage, causing him to die.

I'm having trouble against Sheik. What should I do?

 

[smasher1001]

Sheik. You know gidy, rayquazas sheik in our scene is pretty sick and I've had some trouble with him each time i've managed to fight him so far. One thing to keep in mind if sheik properly spaces fair or bair you can't grab as a punishment. you may be able to up-b out of shield, im not sure since i really need to work on adding punish up b/up smashes from shield into my game. bair works reasonably as a counter spacing tool though sheiks still got the edge in this.

one nice thing is at 11% shiek can be up tilted like, 4ish times and you can try to add mixups to get combos off of it. if you're sucessfully with a read you can get 11% shiek to like, 60-70% with this. other than that, watch out once you're at high percent as sheik b-air and u-air are stron ko options at that point. bair's reach and being frame 4 is nasty.

 

[Gidy]

Sheik. You know gidy, rayquazas sheik in our scene is pretty sick and I've had some trouble with him each time i've managed to fight him so far. One thing to keep in mind if sheik properly spaces fair or bair you can't grab as a punishment. you may be able to up-b out of shield, im not sure since i really need to work on adding punish up b/up smashes from shield into my game. bair works reasonably as a counter spacing tool though sheiks still got the edge in this.

one nice thing is at 11% shiek can be up tilted like, 4ish times and you can try to add mixups to get combos off of it. if you're sucessfully with a read you can get 11% shiek to like, 60-70% with this. other than that, watch out once you're at high percent as sheik b-air and u-air are stron ko options at that point. bair's reach and being frame 4 is nasty.

Very useful information. Thanks.

 

[-Sensei-]

What are some good stage bans/counterpicks against Yoshi?

 

[Xeze]

I'd say stages with lower ceiling, so you can KO Yoshi earlier with up smash or d-air. Due to Yoshi's recovery (super armor on his double jump) it's harder to get a KO by edgeguarding. D-air KOs surprisingly well.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Although one good cape and Yoshi's done for after his doublejump. They're usually forced to edgeguard which can let you catch it with an Upsmash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Random: in custom environment, the optimal set in the ditto matchup is 2212. Mario is a semi floaty midweight so EJP combos work poorly on him for KO confirms. He has to respect both Shocking Cape and Scalding FLUDD significantly. Fireball is somewhat up to preference for stalling on some platforms or edgeguards, but Fast Fireball is much less likely to get punished by Shocking Cape.

Villager is also considerably heavier than I realized (he's Luigi's weight) which make throw combos into EJP work poorly, so while I originally suggested 2233 against him (and Olimar and Duck Hunt, who are light enough to make more of Mario's throw combos work pretty well), I actually now think that 2223 or 2213 is probably better against him specifically.

 

[Gidy]

So, I lost to a olimar today in a tournament. It was mostly because of lack of MU experience, but what options are available for Mario to use against Olimar? I know the reflector is useful for his smashes and side specials, but I had a hard time getting in.

Also, I don't feel comfortable with Mario dittos since nair just breaks the other users string so is Mario vs. Shulk a doable MU for shulk in your guys' opinions? Or what could I be doing wrong in ditto matches...?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Nair is only going to break your string if you're going for non-true up air strings. Stick to true combos and, when attempting to frame trap them, either bait the nair and punish with upsmash/grab or just hi them with bairs.

It's the same principle as the luigi matchup.

 

[Gidy]

Nair is only going to break your string if you're going for non-true up air strings. Stick to true combos and, when attempting to frame trap them, either bait the nair and punish with upsmash/grab or just hi them with bairs.

It's the same principle as the luigi matchup.

Useful information but I dunno about Luigi since his fireball is a lot better.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Fulljump fireball and platforms deals with Luigi's fireball as well as just perfect shielding, not that that is even slightly relevant to what I said lmao.

 

[Berserker.]

What's up, fellow Mario mains!

Shulk boards decided to talk about Red Luigi

JOIN US. Please

http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-match-up-thread-jumping-solves-everything.394271/

 

[Xeze]

I recently started to like Wario as my second main (Mario's always first though). What do you guys think of the Mario vs Wario matchup?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I recently started to like Wario as my second main (Mario's always first though). What do you guys think of the Mario vs Wario matchup?

Wario's superior damage probably gives him the edge, like it did previously. Winnable but annoying matchup simply because he gets more out of hits than you do.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wario's superior damage probably gives him the edge, like it did previously. Winnable but annoying matchup simply because he gets more out of hits than you do.

I'll disagree. Wario has the better damage per hit but unlike in Brawl he has to commit. The lack of commitment in Brawl was the main reason why he had that edge previously. He also no longer has extreme aerial mobility and is forced to become more grounded. Mario's B-air still beats everything Wario has and he can combo and juggle Wario harder than vise versa. His bite no longer has grab armor, so Mario no longer has to worry about that either.

If Wario has the edge it'll be because he's a heavyweight and he has the motorcycle which not only converts into juggles if it hits, but is also a safe option to use, along with lowering the timer to get Waft. Being as safe as possible gives him massive benefits due to Waft, which can lead to very clutch kills. Otherwise, I would edge it to Mario.

 

[Galaxian]

Would it be safe to say that Mario has an okay MU against Diddy? While Diddy Kong is...well, Diddy Kong, he does seem to preform well against Diddy with aerial chains and so forth.

How does Mario preform against Space Elsa Rosalina anyhow? I need someone that helps me stop her, since 3/5 of my characters are primary projectiles. Mario seems to do okay against her once you get rid of Luma.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's matchup against Diddy on default settings is really awful, except that Diddy's game falls apart against Mario completely if he throws away the first stock. If for any dumb reason you manage to get the first KO, you probably can win very convincingly because of Rage assisted combos and because hopefully if you survived to high percents, Diddy will have a much harder time comboing you into a KO move. Diddy does very poorly coming back from a stock deficit against Mario for those reasons, but in most situations he generally outclasses Mario. Can break out of his combos with his 3 frame U-air, is really short and thus hard to space aerials against, has a giant F-air that beats almost all of Mario's attacks head on, and his grab game is better than Mario's.

Vs Rosalina is okay. Not really favorable for Mario, but doable. B-throw often instakills Luma which is nice, but what's not so nice is getting juggled by Rosalina's huge aerials and U-smash.

 

[Galaxian]

Mario's matchup against Diddy on default settings is really awful, except that Diddy's game falls apart against Mario completely if he throws away the first stock. If for any dumb reason you manage to get the first KO, you probably can win very convincingly because of Rage assisted combos and because hopefully if you survived to high percents, Diddy will have a much harder time comboing you into a KO move. Diddy does very poorly coming back from a stock deficit against Mario for those reasons, but in most situations he generally outclasses Mario. Can break out of his combos with his 3 frame U-air, is really short and thus hard to space aerials against, has a giant F-air that beats almost all of Mario's attacks head on, and his grab game is better than Mario's.

Vs Rosalina is okay. Not really favorable for Mario, but doable. B-throw often instakills Luma which is nice, but what's not so nice is getting juggled by Rosalina's huge aerials and U-smash.

Tight, I'll keep these in mind. I need someone to help me deal with those two so I'll go with Mario. I'll pull out my Pocket Diddy if I lose :^)))

Yeah the Rosalina MU seems alright for Mario. Might be even or just +1 for Rosie. Hard to say.

The Mario/Samus MU is probably HUGE in Mario's favor. Mario outspeeds Samus, can juggle her in the air, usually where she doesn't want to be, etc. When I face Samus as Mario it usually goes my way since Mario outpreforms her.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's clearly in Mario's favor. Is it a huge advantage? That I can't say for sure. Samus has good combos and can put in some hurt when she gets going, and once she gets charged shot, Mario has to be extra cautious which gives Samus much needed breathing room.

It might be +2 for Mario but it's arguable.

 

[Xeze]

Mario vs Samus is in Mario's favor, no doubt in that.

What about the Mario vs Fox and Mario vs Ness matchups? I feel they are more or less even.

 

[Galaxian]

Mario vs Samus is in Mario's favor, no doubt in that.

What about the Mario vs Fox and Mario vs Ness matchups? I feel they are more or less even.

Yeah, those are even or just a little in one's favor, probably Mario's.

Mario can reflect PK Fire, although Ness can juggle him well - Mario escapes with Nair, and Ness can escape with his Nair as well. Hard to say, but it does seem pretty even. If you want to say it's a little in one or the other's favor, then that'd make sense. Seems even enough, though.

Same goes for Fox/Mario, though Mario might have an upper hand. Hard to say. Fox combos pretty well, so does Mario.

I'm bad at deciding but they do seem pretty even.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I hate playing vs Ness. Really short, better grab game. Mario can't really approach him easily, and he can punish your mistakes disproportionately hard. FLUDD edgeguards thankfully are actually good vs Ness, but I feel like Ness has more control overall.

 

[Xeze]

Also normal Fireballs are good to gimp Ness if he recovers low.

 

[Galaxian]

I hate playing vs Ness. Really short, better grab game. Mario can't really approach him easily, and he can punish your mistakes disproportionately hard. FLUDD edgeguards thankfully are actually good vs Ness, but I feel like Ness has more control overall.

I don't tend to have trouble against Ness. Maybe that's because I play him a lot so I know what they're doing? Hard to say, really. While it's annoying to face him, it's not too awful.

Also normal Fireballs are good to gimp Ness if he recovers low.

True, they can intercept with PK Thunder. I'd feel awful if I did that to someone, but I'm gonna do it anyway

 

[IronMario31]

So as of late I've been having trouble with skilled Villagers. Mainly those that spam his Bair over and over again. When I try to go aerial it kills all the momentum that I have and while I would cape his attacks, he can shoot his bair again pretty quickly making my cape useless. He likes to hang off the edge, drop and do a bair to hit me while grounded. I do cape his approach which involves gyroids half the time, but overall I'm being overwhelmed by his aerial attacks. Any tips on approaching a spam happy villager?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hello mains of Jumpman, we've started discussion on the vs MU.

You can find the discussion here. We look forward to your input.

 

[Locuan]

Hi everyone! We are about to start the Mario Match-up Discussion on the Marth Match-up Thread. It would be awesome if you guys could help us out!

 

[Ulevo]

What are your thoughts on the Lucario match up, Mario mains? Who wins? What does Mario need to do in order to win? What does Lucario need to do in order to win?

 

[Galaxian]

What are your thoughts on the Lucario match up, Mario mains? Who wins? What does Mario need to do in order to win? What does Lucario need to do in order to win?

I don't really play against Lucario much thank goodness.

I can say that the MU seems pretty even. Mario can combo Lucario pretty quickly and get his damage up, and his fast smashes can punish Lucario's rather slow ones. But again, we're talking about Lucario here, who benefits from getting more damage because it powers crutch mode Aura.

Mario can reflect Aura Sphere and I believe Force Palm too, and if a Counter is baited out from Mario it's a free punish. It seem even or just a tad in the plumber's favor.

How does the Mario / R.O.B MU look for Mario anyway? R.O.B is the bane of my existence, and I've heard Mario does okay against him.

It's that or I pick up Sheik purely as a R.O.B counter.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lucario vs Mario is Mario's advantage. Mario has a pretty strong attack speed advantage and Lucario can't do much to bat him away when Mario is in his range. FLUDD also wrecks Lucario's recovery, which means when he's thrown off stage at high percents we almost always have the ability to trap him into U-Smash, making our trouble to securing a KO less of an issue. His D-air isn't nearly as annoying as it was in Brawl either.

Aura/Rage shenanigans is legitimately scary, which keeps this MU in check for him, but his kill options are limited since Aura Sphere and Force Palm can be reflected and both kills him pretty easily

How does the Mario / R.O.B MU look for Mario anyway? R.O.B is the bane of my existence, and I've heard Mario does okay against him.

Mario wrecks ROB. ROB's N-air is the only thing that stops this from being severely in Mario's advantage because you have to respect it and it has Mario-tier landing lag (i.e., incredibly little). Mario juggles ROB for free and edgeguarding him is a breeze. You can also do Down-Angled F-Smashes at the ledge and it'd hit ROB because his ledge snap mechanics are legitimately bad.

ROB's D-throw > U-air is powerful and he can get early kills off of this from platforms, but this is avoidable (I've also been told this can be DI'd out of but I've yet to confirm it myself), and U-Throw is a potent kill throw. ROB has to be on point with his spacing and projectile game because once Mario is in he's in for a world of hurt.