World 8 - The Mario Match-Up Index [8-2: Luigi, Doc]

[HeroMystic]

Last Day for discussion.

We can extend the duration of the discussion further since a lot of Mario mains wants to talk about the Rosalina MU.

 

[HeroMystic]

World 8-2: Sibling Rivalry

vs
vs

• This discussion will last for one week. However if needed we can shorten or extend the duration.
• Discussion is more important than the rating, so do not feel pressured in giving a ratio.
• --That said, if you do rate the MU, please giving a descriptive synopsis as to why.
• All discussion will account for both Default and Customs.
• Keep this civil and lively.

Also note I lowered the amount of MU discussions to two instead of three. Discussion isn't strong enough to go for three.

 

[Xeze]

Mario vs Luigi is funny because both can break out of each others combos with their fast nairs. However, Luigi gets more damage out of his own than Mario. He also has kill confirms, like d-throw->rising cyclone or d-throw->upB, which work, unlike Mario whose kill options are more percentage specific. Both have good options to edgeguard each other.
With customs Mario gets some interesting tools, namely Gust Cape and Scalding FLUDD. SF gives him a disjointed hitbox, which helps a lot. Gust Cape strengthens Mario's edgeguarding capabilities further and also improves recovery.
Overall, the matchup feels like in Luigi's favor, albeit by a small margin.

Mario vs Doc is mobility vs kill power. Haven't faced many Docs so I can't really provide a specific input on this one. In customs I see Scalding FLUDD working (once again) well against him. But the matchup seems even to me or slightly in Mario's favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As I've mentioned other places, F-throw is good against floaties like Luigi. Around 11-20% you should be looking for F-throw -> B-air setups on him. More rewarding than D-throw and less likely to result in you trading unfavorably.

The Luigi matchup also is one of few where F-smash is actually pretty good to depend on given Luigi's optimal range tends to leave him somewhat easily baited by F-smash, and his low traction also prevents him from punishing it easily. D-tilt a lot against him too given it makes it a lot harder for him to dashgrab you.

It's overall a really boring matchup. You basically never want to be approaching him ever if you don't have to, and in a custom environment you can at least guarantee he's forced to approach with Fast Fireballs and then wall him out with Scalding FLUDD and whichever custom Cape you prefer. His Jab, F-air, and Fireball are a chore to space against, most of your throw combos don't last long against him while Luigi's combo game has even pre-nerf Diddy envious, and chasing him in the air for anything other than hit and runs can often be counterproductive. Given his low aerial mobility and slow fall speed though, he is at least easier to catch with U-smash than most characters. I would say 55/45 Luigi's favor no customs, 55/45 Mario's favor with customs.


As for vs Doc, it's another super boring matchup where approaching on either side tends to be counterproductive. Doc gets more reward for walling and edgeguarding in this matchup (Doc is able to trade with and gimp Mario's Up-B with his D-air), but similar to Luigi his lower air speed makes him more vulnerable than he would like to being caught by Mario's U-smash and grab in juggle situations (though not quite to the same extent as Luigi). Both of them also get screwed by each others F-smashes in boxing wars. I would say this matchup generally speaking is about even, but edging out 55/45 Mario's favor in customs due to Scalding FLUDD walling being hard to answer. The Shocking Cape/Sheet are the optimal variants in this matchup given the disjoint beats out other aerial attacks.

 

[Kisatamura]

Going from a Mario point of view, versus Doc can be rather tedious since nobody is really going to be out zoning each other. Mario's better air speed allows him to weave in and out if needed. Mario's Dair has a decent amount of priority for anti-juggle purposes if you're getting juggled. Try not to trade attacks since Doc has a higher damage ratio.

Doc is much better at offensive edgeguarding than Mario is due to Dr. Tornado, Dair, a late nair and most of his other aerials. Always try to aim high when recovering with Mario since Doc won't be able to chase opponents high in the sky. If Doc has Soaring Tornado, then try to mixup which angle you recover since the custom tornado can cover any height depending on where doc decides to go.

Conversely, doc is at his worst when recovering so make good use of moves like Dsmash to force really tough recoveries with Doc.

Scalding FLUDD was covered in our MU against Mario, so I would always use it favor of regular FLUDD, just don't blindly throw out since Doc can throw a pill. Scalding FLUDD is good for edgeguarding, and is more effective on stages without platforms since Doc can't easily avoid it.

Speaking of platforms, avoid stages like Battlefield if your Doc knows about setting up tech chases. On stages like battlefield, Doc can Dthrow you to force you onto platforms at really early percents. This allows him to read your getup options and attack you with something (I usually do UpB due to it's huge range).


Also, if doc hits you with a USmash and you land close to him, he can potentially do an UpB or a FSmash while you're facing the wrong direction, so be aware of a doc using USmash to set up ambiguous followups!

 

[HeroMystic]

What's the proper way to respond to Luigi's Jab > Up-B setup?

 

[A2ZOMG]

What's the proper way to respond to Luigi's Jab > Up-B setup?

Shield. iirc Luigi's frame advantage from Jab is only like +1 or 2 in this game on most characters, and his Up-B is frame 8. Usually he'll Jab cancel into grab.

 

[Gidy]

I suggest we treat MUs like the Shulk boards do in terms of organization if there are gonna be character discussions again.

Luigis are always trying to buffer their nairs, so after one dthrow utilt always shield. If they nair then punish them. At around 70 percent they go up pretty high from dthrow utilt so if you see them put out a nair put out Usmash since you won't get hit from the nair and that's the best punish really. BE SAFE WITH DTHROW follow ups since his nair kills and does a reasonably high percent.

Cape luigis fire balls if he approaches you with them and they can lead to a hit or grab if they hit. Mix up Di against his combos and buffer nair if you are stuck in a string. Do not get grabbed at high percents since that one grab is basically a stock with luigis down b. Space fire balls, space bairs, cross up dairs, and JC Pivot Usmash approach. It's rather safe in shield considering the amount of cool down it has and the shield push back from Luigis slipperyness.

Always go for off stage gimps unless he's in position to down b. Cape missiles, nair up b's, etc. When I fight luigi I get most of my kills by offstage kills/gimps.

Really I feel like Luigi can dominate Mario, especially if you are not experienced with the character, but I think Marios can win if they play really safe with their approach, combos, and spacing. Personally I'd opt for my secondary Shulk since he ruins Luigi.

40 : 60

 

[Spirst]

Hello, everyone. Here to let you guys know that the Mewtwo MU thread is discussing Mario this week. Hopefully this place isn't too dead to contribute. I understand Mewtwo is a character not many have experience with outside of FG so it'll mostly be impressions without too much depth to go off of. Regardless, anything is appreciated.

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

 

[Ffamran]

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

Teleport Mario! Mario, use Telepor' Attack! Well done, Mario!

 

[HeroMystic]

I suggest we treat MUs like the Shulk boards do in terms of organization if there are gonna be character discussions again.

I'm not going to make 50+ threads dedicated to MU discussions if they're going to have very little posts. That's just a waste of space and clutters the boards.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's Jab -> Up-B isn't a true combo. I'd rather Jab -> D-tilt. But Mario has F3 N-air so.... Luigis better off doing their whole jab combo.

Luigis are always trying to buffer their nairs, so after one dthrow utilt always shield. If they nair then punish them. At around 70 percent they go up pretty high from dthrow utilt so if you see them put out a nair put out Usmash since you won't get hit from the nair and that's the best punish really. BE SAFE WITH DTHROW follow ups since his nair kills and does a reasonably high percent.

Luigi can N-air you at 0% before the first U-tilt even starts. Depending on the Luigi, they may try to not N-air after the first or second U-tilt. It's a mindgame honestly, but Mario is generally at an advantegous position.

And no Luigis will N-air after an U-tilt at 70%. You better off chasing him to the air rather than charging an obvious U-smash below (Unless the Luigi reeeaaaaaaallllllyyyyyy likes to retaliate, like me. Though, I don't remember flinging a N-air that high). Luigi's D-air isn't good at hitting downwards, so below him is usually a safe place to be.

 

[Gidy]

Luigi's Jab -> Up-B isn't a true combo. I'd rather Jab -> D-tilt. But Mario has F3 N-air so.... Luigis better off doing their whole jab combo.


Luigi can N-air you at 0% before the first U-tilt even starts. Depending on the Luigi, they may try to not N-air after the first or second U-tilt. It's a mindgame honestly, but Mario is generally at an advantegous position.

And no Luigis will N-air after an U-tilt at 70%. You better off chasing him to the air rather than charging an obvious U-smash below (Unless the Luigi reeeaaaaaaallllllyyyyyy likes to retaliate, like me. Though, I don't remember flinging a N-air that high). Luigi's D-air isn't good at hitting downwards, so below him is usually a safe place to be.

I always trade with Luigi's after one uair chase :/

 

[TriTails]

With what?

Trading with Mario's U-air is hard because it comes out at F4. The fastest aerial Luigi has is N-air, and the sweetspot only lasts for three frames. D-air comes out at F10 and is hard to trade with.

And Cyclone has lackuster hitbox below him, so he better off resetting to the ledge or surprise you with a FF late N-air.

 

[xBlitz]

Any thoughts on the Fox matchup, with regards to neutral?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any thoughts on the Fox matchup, with regards to neutral?

Fox technically beats like everyone except Sheik in neutral imo, but he has no way to easily end stocks if you play super conservatively. Ledge resets are almost totally free against him, and should be abused.

 

[TriTails]

Fox technically beats like everyone except Sheik in neutral imo

's crawling and anyone who crawls lower from or at least the same height of him say hi.

Kind of funny Fox is the only one who has the fastest DA (F4) that doesn't involve him doing something goofy.

 

[Gidy]

With what?

Trading with Mario's U-air is hard because it comes out at F4. The fastest aerial Luigi has is N-air, and the sweetspot only lasts for three frames. D-air comes out at F10 and is hard to trade with.

And Cyclone has lackuster hitbox below him, so he better off resetting to the ledge or surprise you with a FF late N-air.

I keep trading with nair sour spots, so :/

Also, what do you guys do against Rosaluma in neutral? I always look for the Bthrow to kill luma but when you can't get the Bthrow what do you do?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I keep trading with nair sour spots, so :/

Also, what do you guys do against Rosaluma in neutral? I always look for the Bthrow to kill luma but when you can't get the Bthrow what do you do?

Hope she does something punishable like DA your shield.

Now on a more serious note, if she whiffs an attack with Luma, DO REMEMBER TO ATTACK LUMA. This applies pretty much universally, but if you have nothing else to do, swatting Luma during a whiff helps set you up to approach her.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Marios out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Mario. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Mario match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/404695/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Xeze]

Probably time to move on to the next matchup, don't you think?

 

[Suspect]

What's the proper way to respond to Luigi's Jab > Up-B setup?

Slapping your opponent

 

[WispBae]

You guys talking about Mario Vs Doc?

Uhhh... ok..? *ahem*... anyways...

The Duck Hunt forums are talking about this MU this week and would love your input!

Click this picture of Mario being molested by a slinky toy to go to the thread!

 

[shrooby]

Hey ya'll, we're discussing Mario in the Dedede forum.
http://smashboards.com/threads/read...ntly-discussing-supah-mario-6-19-6-23.395045/
Input from the other side would be most appreciated. Thanks.~

 

[M@v]

You'll be seeing a lot of luigis out there, so it's important to know the matchup. Personally, I think its 6:4 luigi's favor. I'll start with my favorite set of this matchup that I've seen:

With that, here's a bullet point list of important points in this matchup:
-Luigi can shoot fireballs faster than you, but you can outcamp him still thanks to the fact you can bounce your fireballs. Abuse the hell out of this. Forcing luigi to approach is always a good thing.
-In the neutral, his fair can beat most of your options, making it quite frustrating to win a footsie war with him.
-Your only guaranteed combos really are dthrow into upb, nair into jab combo, and dair into followup. True uptilt chains are out of the question, and upair strings are extremely risky. Any bonus combos you get outside of those I listed are going to come from reads/conditioning him not to throw out nairs. You can sometimes get one uptilt off after a dthrow too before an Upb.
-On the defensive end, Luigis nair is a much better escape move then our upb since its a lot safer. Mario can upb out of most luigi combos that aren't downthrow->fair or downthrow->downb, but Luigi gets a way harder punish for reading our upb than we do reading his nair.
-Off stage, mario wins. Luigi's recovery is good distance wise, but mario can punish it during the side b or down b phase of it. All of your edgeguard tools are pretty effective (Fair is used fantastically in the video I posted).
-FLUDDing him always helps onstage or off since his main weakness is mobility; Toss in fludds to get him where you want.
-The biggest disadvantage for Mario in this matchup is his lack of guaranteed kill setups on Luigi, while Luigi has a guaranteed one, and its extremely easy to get. I'm pretty sure its nigh impossible for Mario to di out of Luigi's down b, even if they screw up. I know I'm doing the DI right because I get out with my other characters when the Luigi mistimes their mashes, but not with Mario. As for getting the grab, one wrong shield will get you grabbed thanks to +1 frame advantage Luigi fireballs <.<

The TL:DR of why Mario loses 6-4:
1. Luigi Fair is fantastic in neutral vs Mario.
2. Luigi Nair is a much safer escape option vs Mario than Mario's upb is vs luigi. Nair also gets him out of more combos than upb does for us.
3. Luigi has an easy to land guaranteed kill setup; Mario does not.

TL:DR of Mario Pros:
1.Can out camp luigi
2.Luigi is vulnerable to pretty much all of Mario's edgeguarding tools
3.FLUDD is fantastic in this matchup, both offstage and on.

 

[Nu~]

Yo, Mario Mains!
The Pac-Boards are discussing the Mario matchup. Hop on over for a chance to fight an old friend!

http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-...sion-titans-clash.390418/page-8#post-19488456

 

[HeroMystic]

This will be moving on to session 3 tomorrow afternoon. Anyone have any MUs they want to discuss?

 

[Xeze]

Fox or Sheik I'd say.
Also the OP probably needs some update.

 

[33percentgod]

I main Bowser and have been having a lot of problems with Mario recently. Mainly, being combo-ed to death (like every match up vs Bowser) and getting back on the stage because of the cape.

I've searched this thread and found nothing regarding the Bowser v Mario match up. Which is odd, because this is like Luke vs Vader. I've come here trying to ask for some advice.

Once you get caught in the down grab into the up fists, is there ANY way to do anything? So far I just started to button mash and hope something happens because it seems the second you're grabbed for that down grab, you just accept 35% damage.

And the cape at the edge. Bowser's recovery is the fortress and once I get hit with the cape at all, from any direction, the match is over. Period. Your character is flashing, immobile, because that's his recovery move. Am I missing something with being able to recover from Mario? I've lost both stocks in matches in under a minute because the minute you get hit with the cape you literally can't do anything, your character has no control.

Thanks for any help!

 

[Xeze]

I main Bowser and have been having a lot of problems with Mario recently. Mainly, being combo-ed to death (like every match up vs Bowser) and getting back on the stage because of the cape.

I've searched this thread and found nothing regarding the Bowser v Mario match up. Which is odd, because this is like Luke vs Vader. I've come here trying to ask for some advice.

Once you get caught in the down grab into the up fists, is there ANY way to do anything? So far I just started to button mash and hope something happens because it seems the second you're grabbed for that down grab, you just accept 35% damage.

And the cape at the edge. Bowser's recovery is the fortress and once I get hit with the cape at all, from any direction, the match is over. Period. Your character is flashing, immobile, because that's his recovery move. Am I missing something with being able to recover from Mario? I've lost both stocks in matches in under a minute because the minute you get hit with the cape you literally can't do anything, your character has no control.

Thanks for any help!

Bowser's fire breath is a good tool vs Mario, specially for edgeguarding. Try to block Mario's approaches and do an UpB on the floor for an instant punish. Abuse f-tilt and down tilt since they outrange Mario's options. Down tilt is also good for edgeguarding.

As for recovery, try to go as low as possible and prepare to tech an eventual stage spike attempt.

Escaping Mario's low % combos is hard to do as Bowser due to his large hurtbox. Just be sure to escape as soon as you can.

 

[Luggy]

This will be moving on to session 3 tomorrow afternoon. Anyone have any MUs they want to discuss?

I posted a thread before, asking some help for the Sheik matchup. People seem to struggle a bit with her, at least for beginners with Mario.

I suggest we explore this matchup. With top players playing her more and more, as well as Zero Suit Samuus, Sheik is now a threat to any character. Sheik is a must, even if she gets nerfed, wich I doubt since she's still pretty balanced.

 

[StardustBamma]

This will be moving on to session 3 tomorrow afternoon. Anyone have any MUs they want to discuss?

With the current meta, Sheik is definitely someone we need to discuss as everyone has said so far. I'd also like to add ZSS to the discussion list as well for my own personal reasons. Oh and this might not be too important but at some point maybe we could re-evaluate Diddy because of the nerfs?

 

[Feziggy]

How does the Pikachu matchup look? I've been struggling to fight them mainly because Thunder is so quick that it interrupts combos often and a good Pikachu is almost impossible to gimp.

 

[M@v]

I know I said the matchup's 6-4 luigi, but the more I play it the more I lose hope in it ;_;

 

[Xeze]

I know I said the matchup's 6-4 luigi, but the more I play it the more I lose hope in it ;_;

So you think it's even worse?

 

[TriTails]

So you think it's even worse?

Funny. I usually frown when facing against Mario. He is just too mobile to catch.

Though. I can't see the MU going over 55:45 Luigi tbh. He does offensive much better overall, but Mario has great speed to back him up and the fact that he doesn't lose hard in frame data (Only losing hard in F-air) enables him to keep up with Luigi. Mario players are also usually great with their reads.

Had Mario sacrificed some of his speed but having better damage output (Brawl!Mario? SSF2!Mario?), I'd argue this is even, as long as it doesn't end up like Doc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How does the Pikachu matchup look? I've been struggling to fight them mainly because Thunder is so quick that it interrupts combos often and a good Pikachu is almost impossible to gimp.

Pikachu has to fish for kills as long as you can avoid his gimps and meanwhile Mario has slightly more leeway to throw out U-smashes when looking for kills against Pikachu. However he does beat Mario in neutral due to being short and having better tilts.

Funny. I usually frown when facing against Mario. He is just too mobile to catch.

Though. I can't see the MU going over 55:45 Luigi tbh. He does offensive much better overall, but Mario has great speed to back him up and the fact that he doesn't lose hard in frame data (Only losing hard in F-air) enables him to keep up with Luigi. Mario players are also usually great with their reads.

Had Mario sacrificed some of his speed but having better damage output (Brawl!Mario? SSF2!Mario?), I'd argue this is even, as long as it doesn't end up like Doc.

I just think Mario is really boring to play against given he can't really kill you if you never make certain mistakes, has mediocre approach options not named Dashgrab, and his mobility mostly really only helps him run away from things even though he can't really safely get in against several characters with better forward facing options. It's just convenient enough for him that his worst matchups aren't explicitly top tiers.

And I do think Luigi wins 6/4 in default, but loses 55/45 in customs. Mario has to hope for a really long game just generally speaking to beat Luigi, but Luigi's poor traction at least means Mario can fish for F-smash safely most of the time.

 

[TriTails]

And I do think Luigi wins 6/4 in default, but loses 55/45 in customs. Mario has to hope for a really long game just generally speaking to beat Luigi, and Luigi's poor traction at least means Mario can fish for F-smash safely most of the time.

I hope you're not another one of those Marios who think spamming F-smash shuts down Luigi.

Yes. I have seen a tourney player does it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I hope you're not another one of those Marios who think spamming F-smash shuts down Luigi.

Yes. I have seen a tourney player does it.

It doesn't. But Luigi has to generally space really conservatively against Mario's F-smash especially since Mario runs faster than him. Most of the time against anyone who knows the matchup, the only time Mario will land F-smash is during boxing wars.

 

[TriTails]

IMO, Luigi's F-smash is better. It's far better to use in footsies due to its low lag. It has safetiness on shield and comes out really fast. To me, range and power < speed and safety. But that's on my end.

Speaking of Mus, shouldn't you guys move on? You guys have been discussing Luigi and Doc for two whole months.