Wolf's Shield Pressure

[Jecks]

In Melee, i picked up Fox as a main and shield pressure was a very big part of my game. picked up wolf in PM and the shield pressure can't really be compared between the two characters. It just doesn't feel as threatening. I try to just waveshine til their shield pops. Any thoughts?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Your aerials aren't safe on shield, try to use fade away aerials, crossup aerials, shinegrabs, multi- and waveshines to shield pressure. Also one little trick Wolf has is to use his slow-travelling lasers to make his moves safe. When you hit a shield and a laser will hit soon it is suddenly safe. Lasers that hit shields inbetween can also guarantee you aerial->grab.
Slower lasers also have an advantage, so to speak. Keep using the Fox stuff that still works and use Wolf's lasers too.

 

[Ogopogo]

IIRC it said somewhere on here that his nair was 0 on shield, which I assume means good but not enough to shine afterwards safely. Someone wanna correct me or elaborate?

 

[SpiderMad]

IIRC it said somewhere on here that his nair was 0 on shield, which I assume means good but not enough to shine afterwards safely. Someone wanna correct me or elaborate?

0 is very safe for shine since it hits on frame 1, it'll start being -1 and -2 or more if Nair is staled or hits high on shield but that's still really safe

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The thing is, it is hard to get it down that one hit of the nair actually hits on the last airbourne frame, otherwise nair is pretty unsafe.

 

[Jecks]

i have to time wolf's nair so that when the hitbox comes out, i can land right after and shine? and if i land after the duration of the intervals its not safe?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah, basically that. There is a little window so it doesn't need to be frameperfect but always try to be as safe as possible

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Just don't shield pressure with Wolf. He's not very good at it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Just don't shield pressure with Wolf. He's not very good at it.

Why isn't he?

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

People who are saying wolf doesn't have good pressure need to stop talking. You are spreading falsehoods through ignorance or malice and neither is welcomed. New people watch this video and the series.

Yes this is for Melee but a lot (if not all) the techniques apply.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Tech-Nelium the Shark
While Wolf's shield pressure is good, please don't be so rude, he has <50 posts and maybe isn't that experienced yet

 

[Xcite]

Just wondering, doesn't wolf have a similar setup like Lucas from shine to footstool? I would think that's safe.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

@ Tech-Nelium the Shark
While Wolf's shield pressure is good, please don't be so rude, he has <50 posts and maybe isn't that experienced yet

If they don't know things they shouldn't pretend like they do and spout BS.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Just wondering, doesn't wolf have a similar setup like Lucas from shine to footstool? I would think that's safe.

Depends on the opponent but it is not completely safe most of the time. Still very hard to react to, because between the shine and the footstool there are depending on the opponent's footstool hurtbox around 15 frames and they can only sense you go for it from around frame 10 on, and nobody has a reaction time/ a character fast enough good enough to punish that. If they try any quick OoS though (maybe reading nair shield pressure or sth.) your setup won't work.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm my math is right, Wolf's advantage for shine on shield is the same as falco, -2.

so double shine looks like:
Double Shine
green = in stun. Red= no stun
(frame in game/Frame for wolf)
1 / 1 (hits)
2 / hitlag
3 / hitlag
4 / hitlag
5 / hitlag
6 / 2
7 / 3
8 / 4 jump starts
9 / 5 stun ends
10 / 6
11 / 7
12 / 8 (first airborne frame, shine hits[after this shine the window of no stun between shines becomes 3 frames because you have to wait extra frame before jumping out of the shine or you'll get a double jump, thanks 8adge])

and shine>footstool looks like:
1 / 1 (hits)
2 / hitlag
3 / hitlag
4 / hitlag
5 / hitlag
6 / 2
7 / 3
8 / 4 jump starts
9 / 5 stun ends
10 / 6
11 / 7
12/8 airborne, then its character dependent on the number of frames to get your feet above their head for the footstool.
I dont have a numbers but taller characters=more of a hole inbetween.


Getting the footstool>shine to land is character depended though. Most characters you have 1-3 frames I think to get the shine out so it hits, but ROB and Ike in particular (might be more of them) have animations that you pretty much NEED the first frame shine. On them I'd rather just do footstool>fast fall dair/nair and go for the frame trap there. As stated before nair can be +-0 on shield so thats good if the continue to hold shield, you can keep wailing on them.

Some characters like Zard (still trying to find more) need you to be facing a specific direction relative to the way they are facing for the shine to hit, or jump to the side with the footstool. It has to do with the specific release positions after the footstool, for zard you have to be facing the opposite direction he is (which is pretty normal when you're approaching so its not too bad.)

the frame advantage for footstools is roughly 8 frames or so, character dependent. I don't know exactly how many frames a perfect FF after a short-footstool is for wolf, but I don't think it couldnt be more than 20 frames or so. So if you're aiming for that frame trap, depending on when you nair/ff its probably a semi-large window. Not enough for most OoS options based on human reaction times imo, some up-bs can get you and if they predict it you're boned. They can also always just buffer a roll or side-step.


Edit: I might be off my a frame because jump-squats still mess me up. I always get jump-squat and first airborne frame mixed up, but I'm pretty sure that frame by frame is right.
Alternatively I could be off for hitlag, I don't have dolphin available to me to double check. fixed a few of the typos on the frames for wolf


Edit edit I can do the exact frames for nair> shine and Dair>shine repeats on shield. Its not too hard, people did it for fox/falco in melee in like 2010. Don't know how useful that would be though

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Okay, I suppose I shouldn't say that Wolf's shield pressure isn't good-- it's just not as good as Fox's. I find that it's pretty much always a better option to blaster on their shield and follow up with a grab, or just dd in front of their shield. If Wolf does go in, shine grab or multishines are probably the best way to go. Or multishine grab if you're feeling up to it.

 

[Soft Serve]

Its roughly equal to fox's sheild pressure. Fox's pressure is a bit better because he can mix up nair and dair shines, IE earliest vs latest to change the opening windows.

Wolf's nair>shine is safe pressure, and he has tons of options otherwise. He can't brute force nair shine all day on shield but he gets a lot more off of grabs imo so shine-grab is amazing, and nair does shield stab VERY well so nair>double shine>nair catches alot of people.

Frame by frame for shine grab:

1/1 (hit)
2/hitlag
3/hitlag
4/hitlag
5/hitlag
6/2
7/3
8/4 Jump starts
9/5 grab starts, stun ends
10/6
11/7
12/8
13/9
14/10
15/11 grab comes out.


I don't know how to calculate hitlag, and multi hit moves confuse me. Once I figure it out I'll do nair>shine and stuff.

 

[FlashingFire]

Earlier in this thread people were saying you had to Nair on the last airborne frame to make Shine a safe follow-up. This is not true. Nair has a hitbox that activates on landing with the move, so as long as you land and L-cancel the Nair while Wolf is still spinning, the move will be +/-0 on shield.

 

[Soft Serve]

If thats true then that make everything a lot easier (and a lot better)

Idk who to tag to confirm this.

edit: okay yeah i see the landing hitbox in the frame data thread. it has to do some substantial amount of stun for it to be +0 though (5 frames+whatever the hitstun is). I believe it though, its probably has something to do with the property of it being un-cc able that does it.

 

[Soft Serve]

Double post, sue me

Shine>nair>shine frames (should be correct, hitlag for shine might be off by a frame but yeah, I'll need someone to confirm this for me later, i'll ask aerodrome or something tonight to cheeck in dolphin because it changes everything by a frame if i'm off)

assuming instant Nair on airborne and a perfect SHFFL (wolf's is 21 frames, 4 for jumpsquat, 17 to reach apex and fastfall [Taken from mach-go's compilation thread])
frame
1shine hitlag
2/hitlag
3/hitlag
4/hitlag
5
6
7Jump starts
8 stun ends( last frame of stun)
9
10
11 First airborne frame, Nair begins)
12
13
14
15
16
17 Nair hit on frame 7 of move (all hitlag occurs here)
18 stun
19 stun
20 stun
21 Nair hitbox on frame 11 of nair (all hitlag happens here)
22 stun
23 stun
24 stun
25 nair hitbox on frame 15 on nair (hitlag)
26 Land, Lcancel Nair, Nair landing hitbox hits, Hitlag happens here
27 L-cancel Stun
28 L-cancel Stun
29 L-cancel Stun
30 L-cancel Stun
31 L-cancel Stun
32 L-cancel Stun (last frame of stun)
33 Shine

Where I might be wrong is shine's exact hitlag/stun (might be offf by 1 frame, + or -, but I'm pretty confident on that) And there might be a frame or so during nair (frame 20 or frames 23-24) where they aren't in shield stun, but it doesnt matter at all because its 1 frame.

If someone wants to double check my work that'd be great, Not 100% confident this is right frame-by-frame, but its pretty close.

So theres an 8 frame window between the Shine and the Nair where they aren't in stun. Enough to grab us if they act within a 2 frame margin, and a lot of up-b OoS's will hit us easy.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hnrghhhg? I don't use Dolphin.

Only use the game for 100% authentic data.

 

[SpiderMad]

Hnrghhhg? I don't use Dolphin.

Only use the game for 100% authentic data.

You said you'd teach me your methods

 

[Soft Serve]

Teach us your ways, oh great name searching frama data god

 

[Crin]

So the best option would be to Shine-Grab? At least the safest? Nair into Shine isn't good enough pressure? I've found it pretty safe as long as you can get the shine to come out as soon as possible. There have been multiple times where they drop their shield in order to do a shield-grab and I'm able to hit them with the shine before the grab.

Is it their mistake for me being able to do this? I don't really know the frame data for this. My group of friends play Marth, Falco, Capt. Falcon, and Pit. (for their frame data and what not) I'm able to do this to all of them occasionally when they try to go for the grab after the Nair.

Other than Nair -> Shine -> Nair or Grab I'm not sure how else to pressure their shields.

 

[Soft Serve]

So the best option would be to Shine-Grab? At least the safest? Nair into Shine isn't good enough pressure? I've found it pretty safe as long as you can get the shine to come out as soon as possible. There have been multiple times where they drop their shield in order to do a shield-grab and I'm able to hit them with the shine before the grab.

Is it their mistake for me being able to do this? I don't really know the frame data for this. My group of friends play Marth, Falco, Capt. Falcon, and Pit. (for their frame data and what not) I'm able to do this to all of them occasionally when they try to go for the grab after the Nair.

Other than Nair -> Shine -> Nair or Grab I'm not sure how else to pressure their shields.

Nair>shine is completely solid string and is a great approach, as shone above. its after the shines that you're vulnerable.
If you do shine>nair, they have a large window to punish (8 frames at the minimum). Shine grabs and double shines are you best options imo. Don't forget that you can always use wolfs great Air mobility to just jump behind their shields after the shine to get away from grabs.

Shine>footstool is really really good if you're comfortable doing footstools and confiming off them

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Shine grabs are the best bet I think, as you need to have some serious reflexes to properly capitalize off multishines. Unless, of course, you're just reading that your 2nd/3rd/whatever shine will hit and get lucky. This is why I prefer to dd in front of their shield to bait out something I can punish with nair->shine or running shine, or use the gun.

 

[Spiffykins]

Wolf's pressure is good but you have to execute it properly and understand when/where certain things are unsafe. All his aerials except nair are tricky to use on shield safely, we all know nair-shine, shine-grab, and multishines are good but it's not your only option.

Fair basically needs to be tippered to be safe. Bair is good if you do it retreating because it autocancels, but is also okay if you do it very close to the ground and is usually fine if you space it well. Up air isn't very safe but has decent horizontal coverage so you can retreat or cross up with it sometimes. Dair needs to be done extremely close to the ground or at least behind their shield, but you can also do full jump dair which is good for getting shield pokes (Chillin does this a lot).

Plus, you can never underestimate the importance of good spacing. Wolf's jab has really good range on it. Tipper fair into jab will catch a lot of people off guard and often get you free grabs, down smashes, and tilts if the jab hits. If you're patient and dash away after hitting shield occasionally, you can punish rolls/whiffed shield grabs/spot dodges easily with dash attack.

 

[SpiderMad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixZR3-YiMw#t=83
Fade away Autocancel Fair to DAC pivot grab

 

[SpiderMad]

K now I made a vid for it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqYjcFkGRzA

 

[Soft Serve]

K now I made a vid for it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqYjcFkGRzA

That bait's out pretty much every oops option, although it loses to delayed grabs and up oos from like bowser and snake
I tried to do cool things on heysues's shield but I just kept getting grabbed >.>
For now I've been playing more melee to get the rust off, once 3.5 drops I'll use debug mode to make cool gift of the shield pressures

 

[FlashingFire]

You could do this with Bair as well, since it has roughly the same autocancel window.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Isn't Wolf's best shield pressure option shine wavedash double shine turnaround grab? You wavedash after the first shine to get behinthe opponent and then from there goham and try to force stuff. If they roll or spotdodge you can hit them or either follow up in reaction.

 

[SpiderMad]

Isn't Wolf's best shield pressure option shine wavedash double shine turnaround grab? You wavedash after the first shine to get behinthe opponent and then from there goham and try to force stuff. If they roll or spotdodge you can hit them or either follow up in reaction.

Make a video, and record your hands of how you multi-shine

 

[Soft Serve]

Isn't Wolf's best shield pressure option shine wavedash double shine turnaround grab? You wavedash after the first shine to get behinthe opponent and then from there goham and try to force stuff. If they roll or spotdodge you can hit them or either follow up in reaction.

It depends on what the character is and how the player reacts to shield pressure with their OoS options

waveshine behind the shield has like 15+ frames of lag on it, so you'll just get grabbed(most characters have grab boxes in/behind them on standing grabs, its a melee thing) or Up-OoS (pretty much every good OoS would hit when you're just moving past them)

Its a great option that Fox and Falco use A LOT in Melee, but if the opponent doesn't flinch they can do whatever they want to get out of it.

Examples include:
Most importantly, just rolling away for free
Wavedashing OoS away from you
average speed aerials OoS if the hitboxes line up
grabbing, most viable up-OoS's, etc

I'm not saying its bad because I use similar set-ups ALL the time, but its not the best because waveshines on shield are only good if you scared them to staying in shield. If they aren't Bowser, every character can just buffer a roll OoS and get out of everything except Nair>shine. My prefered movement that works like this is just waveshine behind>dash away>dash in, if they stayed/spot dodged I grab, if they rolled away I chase, if they rolled in keep DDing and go for grab/upsmash, If they did an OoS attack I try to punish it accordingly. Most of this is just Fox things that follow super well to wolfs kit

You can definitely still chase them down after the roll, although that turns from clear advantage/shield pressure to just "pressured neutral" for lack of a better term. Depending on positioning, you might have even given up middle stage and given them time to dash away or stuff your chase down attempt. When people roll away I'm pretty sure seting up laser pressure to make another opening is your best bet

For the doubleshine turnaround grab, Ideally you should do the turn around between the shines (yeah, thats ****ing hard) but otherwise you lose the 1-2 frames of advantage that you have in shine>grabs

Idk, I think I just want to say that wolf doesn't have a "best" shield pressure option, meaning he doesn't have the godlike varying frame traps that fox has with early/delays nairs and Dairs. He has a lot of different set-ups that are great at catching people out of their common panic buttons and baiting said options to punish.

MU dependent, my favorite shield pressure is Shine>empty jump away, although it only works if you conditioned them to respect his other options. Against like Tether characters and DDD you'll just get grabbed (I money matched heysuess last week and almost got 3x 4 stocked because I was trying different things and just getting grabbed>gimped lol)

TL;DR, I'm not the greatest wolf but I do know that there is no such thing as a best shield pressure option (after of course nair>shine because that link is broken) because getting predictable with your shield pressure and approaches will just get you read like a book and gimped.


@ SpiderMad Once 3.5 drops I'll make a **** load of videos, I already have a page in my notebook of things I want to slow-mo gif and I add pretty much everything anyone says here to the list.

 

[Strong Badam]

Last time I checked, Nair was +0 on shield. Wolf's pressure is great.

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah I made this based on what people made for fox/Falco and there shield pressure

Spoiler

1shine hitlag
2/hitlag
3/hitlag
4/hitlag
5
6
7Jump starts
8 stun ends( last frame of stun)
9
10
11 First airborne frame, Nair begins)
12
13
14
15
16
17 Nair hit on frame 7 of move (all hitlag occurs here)
18 stun
19 stun
20 stun
21 Nair hitbox on frame 11 of nair (all hitlag happens here)
22 stun
23 stun
24 stun
25 nair hitbox on frame 15 on nair (hitlag)
26 Land, Lcancel Nair, Nair landing hitbox hits, Hitlag happens here
27 L-cancel Stun
28 L-cancel Stun
29 L-cancel Stun
30 L-cancel Stun
31 L-cancel Stun
32 L-cancel Stun (last frame of stun)
33 Shine

But I'm not certain everything is correct, shield stun and hit lag wise. It's pretty close though, and repeated nair shines on shield if done ASAP only has an 8 ish (?) Frame window I think
Nair > shine is god like but I'm still hesitant on how good shine > instant nair is because I don't know if I'm right with the frames

 

[FlashingFire]

Would Nair > Shine > fadeaway Fair work as a shieldgrab bait? Depending on the character, you could probably jump far enough away that the grab would whiff and get punished with a sweetspot Fair (which you could then autocancel and combo out of).

Goodness I can't wait for debug mode.

 

[5ully]

Question! Can you RAR fair auto cancel?! If you could that'd be sexy as all get out cuz you can run past the and have the hitstun on shield and go for the grabs or more shield pressure.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why wouldn't you be able to

 

[victinivcreate1]

Would Nair > Shine > fadeaway Fair work as a shieldgrab bait? Depending on the character, you could probably jump far enough away that the grab would whiff and get punished with a sweetspot Fair (which you could then autocancel and combo out of).

Goodness I can't wait for debug mode.

Can't you autocancel bair too? In that case wouldn't that work better?