Wolf's Shield Pressure

[Yashichi]

how do i get good at waveshines or multishines? should i just grind it out or is there some better way to hold the controller that makes it easier

 

[Frost | Odds]

Waveshines: just grind it out.
Multishines: Don't bother usually, shinegrab is better.

 

[Sail]

Waveshines: just grind it out.
Multishines: Don't bother usually, shinegrab is better.

I would definitely recommend learning double shining. Shine grab is beaten by buffered roll OOS and doubleshine as a mixup can catch that. What got me to be able to multishine is that I kept my thumb really close to the controller when going from y to b. It's almost like instead of presing down on b I press from the side and it goes down if that helps. Oh, and make sure to practice on the walls of shadow moses or on an invincible opponent from a starman to get the timing right on sheild.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's worth learning, but imo not a priority. I'd still regard lasers, b-reverse, waveshining, the DI mixups from throws, DACUS, and shinegrabbing (and shine turnaround grabbing, and doing the aforementioned out of laser and nair) vastly more important.

Pleasant surprise: wolf's dacus is just a 1 frame link just like cstick attack pivot ftilt, and therefore actually pretty easy for me now :D

Super useful too holy fox

 

[Ogopogo]

Doubleshine is also good against CC. It should be something all wolfs know how to do at some point

 

[1FD]

Shinegrab and straight grab beats CC
Don't forget flash hits
Get those down
It's serious sadface that it has taken so long for it to be normal
Seriously if I can end 50% of my enemies stocks with it and I'm a scrub who players against players almost always better than me who also know wolf then anybody can figure out how to line those up

 

[Yashichi]

Thanks for the advice, guys. Wolf is one of the most fun characters to play in Project M and it's a character that seems really rewarding to get good at

 

[Venom_909]

That bait's out pretty much every oops option, although it loses to delayed grabs and up oos from like bowser and snake
I tried to do cool things on heysues's shield but I just kept getting grabbed >.>
For now I've been playing more melee to get the rust off, once 3.5 drops I'll use debug mode to make cool gift of the shield pressures

Im ready for that gift <3

 

[Soft Serve]

I wanted to do gifs, but I thought there was shield stun indictators in debug mode, and I'm too lazy to do the math for the shield pressure for dair.
the frame by frames above should be accurate still for the most part, although nair is something like -1 instead of +0 on shield

 

[Venom_909]

4sure. i thought there was shield stun indicators as well havnt checked yet

 

[Soft Serve]

Wolf's dair unstale does 15 dmg, plugged into the shield stun calculator for melee (x+4.45)/2.235 is 8.7, rounded down so 8 frames of shield stun. Dair has 11 frames of L canceled landing lag, so if you hit with dair on the frame right before you land, its -4 on shield, but thats not counting hitlag frames eating up some of the shield stun. I dont remember how to calculate hitlag frames tbh, but I dont think dair is very good on shield unless you're full hopping and hitting the top of thier shield, or landing behind them with it so they cant grab you (they should still be able to do most Up-B OoS and quick nairs OoS depending on the characters options.)

its not bad, but from watching recent Xanadus, Hat already started blowing Chillin up for relying on only Dair shield pressure because Shiek's Nair OoS is definetly fast enough to hit between the Wolf's Dair and his shine.

Its a good option, not something to rely on in most situations

 

[Venom_909]

Yeah i found myself getting punished for dair unless it was spaced behind them on shield. SO prolly rely on Nair / shine and spaced Fairs / bairs. Im loving how his pressure feels. Its like a mix of marth out ranging you and spacies being in your face. I feel the point thats going to get me to level up is utilization of his sour / sweetspot of fair.

 

[Chef2]

Boys! I wanna revive this thread because I think we've been off on how good our shield pressure is this whole time, specifically 2 frames of hitlag on the shine. So the hitlag formula is:
floor{floor{floor{(Damage * 0.3 + 3)}*electric}*CC}
Where floor just means to rounded down to the nearest whole number, CC means crouch cancel (if the victim is crouch canceling, they get 2/3 hitlag only) and I want to highlight electric. Shine is an electric attack. The electric hitlag modifier is 1.5, however THIS MODIFIER IS FOR THE VICTIM ONLY (source is @strongbad http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/) which means wolf actually suffers less hitlag than his opponent during shine. The math works out that before the electric modifier, wolf and his victim suffer 4 frames of hitlag, so multiplied by 1.5 means his victim suffers 6 frames while wolf only has 4.

I haven't labbed this yet but if it's true everything we've calculated after a shine should have the victim in two extra frames of hitstun, meaning our first double shine is 0 on shield and multi shines thereafter are -1 between shines.

Or I'm totally wrong here, will lab later when I'm not at school.

Also, just looking at some of the previous frame-by-frame calculations, what are those 2 frames after the shine hitlag where nothing is said? It's in every calculation and I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. Is that shines cooldown? I know you can't JC shine till frame 4, but is that the same with hitlag? Cause if it is, my guess is that those two blank frames are meant to be shine cooldown, but then if that's the case, shouldn't there be 3 blank frames since it's cancel-able on frame 4?

 

[XF_Awkward]

I thought it was discussed somewhere that the electric modifier doesn't effect shields, only actual hits.
Also, it would be cool if this thread was revived. I got to reading through most of it and was sad to see it didn't take off when 3.5 hit, though I can understand the difficulty of measuring everything accurately.

 

[Chef2]

First wanna say that this is a work in progress and suggestions and criticism are greatly appreciated and encouraged. The more theory crafting and concrete data we make the better

On study breaks lately I've been writing up wolfs shield pressure frame by frame for various move combinations. The general formula is shine->aerial->shine. I included some of wolfs and shines properties for clarification.

Note: I also assumed all aerials are started on the first airborne frame. Aerials could be delayed (except for nair) to increase the before aerial and reduce the after aerial windows by (roughly) 10 frames. For example, an instant Bair has a 8 frame front end and 11 frame back end window, and a delayed Bair (last airborne frame) has a 18 frame front end and 2 frame back end window. When considering delaying aerials remember that nair true links into shine and is tied for smallest before aerial window, so it is probably the better option.

Wolf Properties
-4 frame jumpsquat
-17 frames for a fastest possible short hop fast fall
-26 frames for a short hop no fast fall
-34 frames for a fastest possible full hop fast fall
-41 frames for a full hop no fast fall

Shine properties
-electric element (50% more hitstun and hitlag on hit to victim only (does not apply to shields))
-hits on frame 1
-4 frames hitlag wolf and victim
-can JC on frame 4. Hitlag is combined additively, so if shine hits something, you can't jump until frame 8
-4 frames shield stun
-2 frames to turnaround in shine
-Shine->shine has a 4 frame window for your opponent to escape (would like this 100% confirmed but on paper this should be the window)

Other Useful Stuff for Shield Pressure
-standing grabs generally grab frames 7-8. Shield grabs are the same.
-roll intangibility starts on frame 3 or 4 (5 for bowser)
-spot dodge intangibility on frame 2 or 3 (not 100% sure if there is chars with slower spot dodges than that)

Shine->Wavedash->shine
-14 frame window between shines
Pretty bad option, remember shield grabs only take 7 frames. I believe shine->nair will almost always be better a option for getting behind your opponent because of the smaller window and the fact that wolf has a short Wavedash and needs to be hella close to actually get on the other side of the person.

Shine->grab
-7 frame window between shine and grab
-shield grabs take 7 frames
I think port priority dictates who wins a grab tie. Regardless, this is still one of our best options after shine, especially when behind the opponent. Should beat all but the fastest OoS options. Blaster->nair->shine->grab is a pretty safe and difficult approach to deal with. Note it takes two frames to turnaround in a shine, so if you cross up a shield and shine->turnaround->grab this gives your opponent some extra frames. For the super technical, shine->turnaround->shine->grab would be slightly superior.

Shine->nair
-hits on frame 7
-shield stun varies on multi hits, but an opponent is stuck in shield stun as long as they keep getting hit
-before aerial: 8 frames
-after aerial: 0. True comboes into the next shine as long as the landing hitbox connects.
Probably our best shield pressure option, this is our only after aerial true combo into shine option, as well as having the same (and shortest) before aerial window as uair and Bair. Shield stabs very nicely, an opponent with a small shield will have to do some slick shield angling to block this.

Shine->Bair (auto cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 7
-8 frames hitlag and shield stun (-2 for sourspot)
-before aerial: 8 frames
-after aerial: 11 frames (+2 for sourspot)
Works great if you cross up shield and start pressuring from behind. As long as wolfs back is to the opponent, you should be able to hit the sweetspot (which is both hitboxes on wolfs leg, these also override the sourspot on wolfs junk). Three bairs and three shines will pop a shield (factoring in shield decay); impractical but that's all it takes. A favorite shield string of mine is to nair->shine->dair (space it so the next shine hits at max range)->shine->retreating Bair.

Shine->bair (l-cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 7
-8 frames hitlag and shield stun (-2 for sourspot)
-before aerial: 8 frames
-after aerial: 12 frames (+2 for sourspot)
Pretty much the exact same as auto cancelling the Bair. Doesn't really matter which one you use. This is because for l-cancel you save 5 airborne frames at the cost of 6 frames of landing lag.

Shine->dair
-hits on frame 13
-8 frames hitlag and shield stun
-before aerial: 15
-after aerial: 7
A fan favorite but out of all our aerials this has the biggest before aerial window. The after aerial window isn't bad though and delaying the dair can make it as small as 2 frames. This is a good beginners shield pressure option (or vs. a very scared opponent) because of how easy it is to do. Keep the control stick down for both shine and dair, then all you have to do is hit special->jump->normal and repeat. If you start this in front of the opponent, try to drift behind them else you'll be shield grabbed. Pops a shield with 3 dairs and 3 shines.

Shine->uair
-hits on frame 7
-6 frames shield stun and hitlag
-before aerial: 8 frames
-after aerial: 15 frames
Our worst option because of the poor damage/landing lag ratio. Should always be better to nair or Bair when we want a quick aerial.

Shine->fair (l-cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 11
-8 frames hitstun and hitlag (-2 for sourspot)
-before aerial: 12 frames
-after aerial: 11 frames (+2 for sour spot)
The 13 frames of l-cancel and 11 frame start up are the bane of this moves shield pressure. Not as bad as uair, but nair or Bair should almost always be better. Sourspot is flat out worse as the only difference is less damage = less shield stun.

Shine->fair (auto cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 11
-8 frames shield stun and hitlag (-2 for sourspot)
-before aerial: 12
-after aerial: 12 (+2 for sour spot)
So you got smart and were thinking "hey if I autocancel the fair and avoid that 13 frame l-cancel, then maybe fairs shield pressure gets juicy". Sadly no, it's even worse by a frame. This is because you have to stay in the air long enough to autocancel, and autocancelling itself has 4 frames of lag, so this is virtually the same as l-cancelling it. Sourspot is still worse.

In conclusion: we can't link any aerials out of shine without giving our victim a chance to roll/spot dodge, but shine->shine can only be beaten by buffered rolls/spot dodges and shine->grab takes the same time as their shield grab. We can link a nair into a shine, and Bair has pretty small windows. Dair is like a slightly easier to hit Bair with a larger before aerial window. Uair and fair should be avoided. I feel like combining multishines, shine->nair/Bair/dair and shine->grab gives us some pretty threatening shield pressure. Specific scenarios I opt for shield pressure vs a shield grab is when my opponent is at a % where I can't covert off of throws, usually high % floaties. Instead I'll whittle their shield and try to poke with a dmash.

Closing note: on tall characters who can be hit by a full hop dair, we have some next level pressure. This is because we can do a falling nair/Bair after the dair.

 

[Ogopogo]

Awesome info, chef. Time for me to practice those shinegrabs.

 

[Rachman]

So mixing up blaster -> nair shine-grab with shield cross ups with nair and dair into extended pressure seem to be a pretty good starting point for generic wolf shield pressure? Edit: Didn't they take out the lag from turning around in shine in pm? So could I cross up dair/nair -> turnaround shine grab too?

 

[Soft Serve]

First off wanna correct myself and the frame data by saying that shine is JC on frame 1 (1st frame after shine) not 4.

Second, electric doesn't effect shield stun, yes. But my understanding from the formula is that it effects hitlag, and only for the victim. I could be wrong though I have a hard time verifying this in the lab. Remember hitlag is the freeze frames that occur when an attack connects, and hitstun happens after hitlag. Be nice if I could find a concrete answer on this.

On study breaks lately I've been writing up wolfs shield pressure frame by frame for various move combinations. The general formula is shine->aerial->shine. Below I go into detail on the combinations. Note that in all this data I assumed shine caused 6 frames of victim hitlag instead of 4. If it is only 4, just add 2 frames to the window between shine->aerial. Shouldn't effect anything on the back end. Everything is also assumed to executed perfectly, obviously in practice this isn't always the case.

Note: I also assumed all aerials are started on the first airborne frame. Aerials could be delayed (except for nair) to increase the front end and reduce the back end windows by (roughly) 10 frames. For example, an instant Bair has a 4 frame front end and 11 frame back end window, and a delayed Bair (last airborne frame) has a 14 frame front end and 2 frame back end window. However, I think delaying aerials isn't the best option as we could just nair and true link into a shine and not have a fat front end window to be punished on.

Shine properties
-hits on frame 1 (JC next frame, but only after hitlag)
-4 frames HL wolf, 6 frames HL victim (assuming electric modifier)
-4 frames shield stun
-2 frames to turnaround in shine
Shine->shine has no window (with electric) and a 2 frame window without when fresh.

Shine->Wavedash->shine
-8 frame window between shines (10 without electric modifier)
Relatively small window if you're trying to get behind your opponent with a Wavedash. I believe shine->nair will almost always be better a option for getting behind your opponent because of the smaller window and the fact that wolf has a short Wavedash and needs to be hella close to actually Wavedash through a shield.

Shine->grab
-grab on frame 7
-3 frame window between shine and grab
I suppose even without the electric modifier, shine->grab should still beat a shield grab. That makes blaster->nair->shine->grab a pretty safe and difficult approach to deal with. 3 frame window between shine->grab (5 without electric modifier). Note it takes two frames to turnaround in a shine, so if you cross up a shield and shine->turnaround->grab this gives your opponent some extra frames. For the super technical, shine->turnaround->shine->grab would be slightly superior.

Shine->nair
-hits on frame 7
-shield stun varies on multi hits, but an opponent is stuck in shield stun as long as they keep getting hit
-front end: 4 frames
-back end: 0. True comboes into the next shine as long as the landing hitbox connects.
Probably our best shield pressure option, this is our only back end true combo into shine option, as well as having the same (and shortest) front end window as uair and Bair. Shield stabs very nicely, an opponent with a small shield will have to do some slick shield angling to block this.

Shine->Bair (auto cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 7
-8 frames hitlag and shield stun
-front end: 4 frames
-back end: 11 frames (+2 for sourspot)
Works great if you cross up shield and start pressuring from behind, especially if you can weave in for the shine and space outward for the Bair, but that's a pretty finicky control stick movement. This weaving is also beneficial as it ensures a sweetspot Bair instead of the weaker sourspot. Three bairs and three shines will pop a shield (factoring in shield decay); impractical but that's all it takes.

Shine->bair (l-cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 7
-8 frames hitlag and shield stun
-front end: 4 frames
-back end: 12 frames (+2 for sourspot)
Pretty much the exact same as auto cancelling the Bair. Doesn't really matter which one you use. This is because for l-cancel you save 5 airborne frames at the cost of 6 frames of landing lag.

Shine->dair
-hits on frame 13
-8 frames hitlag and shield stun
-front end: 11
-back end: 7
A fan favorite but out of all our aerials this has the biggest front end window. The back end is even kinda big. This is a good beginners shield pressure option (or vs. a very scared opponent) because of how easy it is to do. Keep the control stick down for both shine and dair, then all you have to do is hit special->jump->normal and repeat. If you start this in front of the opponent, try to drift behind them else you'll be shield grabbed. Pops a shield with 3 dairs and 3 shines.

Shine->uair
-hits on frame 7
-6 frames shield stun and hitlag
-front end: 4 frames
-back end: 15 frames
Our worst option because of the poor damage/landing lag ratio. Should always be better to nair or Bair. Uair can't auto cancel out of short hop, but if it could it would still be bad.

Shine->fair (l-cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 11
-8 frames hitstun and hitlag
-front end: 8 frames
-back end: 11 frames (+2 for sour spot)
The 13 frames of l-cancel and 11 frame start up are the bane of this moves shield pressure. Not as bad as uair, but nair or Bair should almost always be better. Sourspot is flat out worse as the only difference is less damage = less shield stun.

Shine->fair (auto cancel) (sweetspot)
-hits on frame 11
-8 frames shield stun and hitlag
-front end: 8
-back end: 12 (+2 for sour spot)
So you got smart and were thinking "hey if I autocancel the fair and avoid that 13 frame l-cancel, then maybe fairs shield pressure gets juicy". Sadly no, it's even worse by a frame. This is because you have to stay in the air long enough to autocancel, and autocancelling itself has 4 frames of lag, so this is virtually the same as l-cancelling it. Sourspot is still worse.

In conclusion: we can't link any aerials out of shine without giving our victim a chance to roll/spot dodge, but we can link shine->shine and shine->grab beats a shield grab. We can link a nair into a shine, and Bair has pretty small windows. Dair is like a slightly easier to hit but otherwise worse Bair (mainly because the front end window is 7 frames larger). Uair and fair should be avoided. I feel like combining multishines, shine->nair/Bair/dair and shine->grab gives us some pretty threatening shield pressure.

Closing note: on tall characters who can be hit by a full hop dair, we have some next level pressure. This is because we can do a falling nair/Bair after the dair.

Shine is not JC'able on the frame after hitstun. You still have to wait for the 4th frame of the move, I'm litterally doing it right now in debug mode.

It goes (as I detailed eariler in the thread)
Shine hit (frame 1 animation)
hitlag
hitlag
hitlag (all still frame 1 of animation)
frame 2 shine
frame 3 shine
frame 4 shine, can Jump on this frame

 

[Rachman]

Damn, I thought that they changed that in PM :/

 

[Chef2]

Aight I threw in a disclaimer that this is a work in progress as it has flaws haha

 

[Chef2]

So I hit the lab to figure out some stuff. Sadly I was off on a few things, our shield pressure is worse than I originally thought. I found:
1)shine is JC on frame 4. This means I was short two frames on every before aerial calculation.
2)shines electric modifier doesn't apply on shield. So shine causes 4 frames of hitlag for victim and wolf instead of 6 frames victim 4 frames wolf
3)essentially I was just short 4 frames on the front end of everything
4) Shine-> grab should be the same as shield grab (7 frames). Not sure who wins when you grab at the same time (port priority?)

Updated the previous post, should be pretty accurate now. Also changed the terms "front end" and "back end" to "before aerial" and "after aerial" as it just makes more sense.

 

[Chef2]

So mixing up blaster -> nair shine-grab with shield cross ups with nair and dair into extended pressure seem to be a pretty good starting point for generic wolf shield pressure? Edit: Didn't they take out the lag from turning around in shine in pm? So could I cross up dair/nair -> turnaround shine grab too?

I'm pretty sure it takes two frames to turn around in shine (appears like 2 to me anyways). When you try to turn, wolf will be facing outwards/inwards first, and the second frame he's facing the other way. Didn't check if you could act on the second frame or had to wait.

Yeah everything you said sounds like about as good as we can do with wolf for shield pressure. I think we rely on our opponent being a little scared and not executing properly haha