Wolf's Shield Pressure

[FlashingFire]

If you were facing away from the opponent, sure. I think Fair would be better at punishing whiffed grabs though, considering its slight pullback and vertical knockback.

 

[5ully]

So I've been trying out these fadeaway Fairs and it seems kinda difficult to do it using the A button. And the C-stick seems a little too far to pull it off regularly. I can RAR it but sometimes I can't auto cancel it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Using Z to jump is a beautiful thing, can't recommend it enough.

Can't you autocancel bair too? In that case wouldn't that work better?

Autocancel frames on bair start late enough that you'd be better off L-canceling given the speed of his SHFF. It's a little faster if you're already facing away, otherwise I'd just stick to fadeaway fair.

 

[NFST4R]

In Melee, i picked up Fox as a main and shield pressure was a very big part of my game. picked up wolf in PM and the shield pressure can't really be compared between the two characters. It just doesn't feel as threatening. I try to just waveshine til their shield pops. Any thoughts?

I am a Wolf Main as well, and I find that nair shine kinda just scratches the shield. Multishining is a good way to scare, but not to shield break. Chillin does full hop dair to shine and repeat but I feel like simply wave dashing out of shield is easy. Just shine grab after nair dude, works every time. Another good option may be to also to be simply hair l-cancel grab, but this can get predictable. Whatever you like, man Wolf is tricky.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I am a Wolf Main as well, and I find that hair shine kinda just scratches the shield. Multishining is a good way to scare, but not to shield break. Chillin does full hop fair to shine and repeat but I feel like simply wave dashing out of shield is easy. Just shine grab after hair dude, works every time

... You should correct your post, just saying.

 

[NFST4R]

... You should correct your post, just saying.

Thank you sir for the heads up I did. Lol none of that made sense until i corrected it.

 

[Sail]

Is there any reason to not just always multi-shine sheilds until it pokes?
I don't know how long buffered rolls take to start-up but it seems like 2 frames is too small if a window. If for some reason multi-shines aren't perfect it seems like mixing up how many shines before shine-grab is the best option.

 

[Soft Serve]

Is there any reason to not just always multi-shine sheilds until it pokes?
I don't know how long buffered rolls take to start-up but it seems like 2 frames is too small if a window. If for some reason multi-shines aren't perfect it seems like mixing up how many shines before shine-grab is the best option.

Check the last page, I made pretty accurate frame by frame things of it. pretty much every character can roll away even if you do it perfectly. Its fantastic to catch Oos options though, it's great pressure

 

[Sail]

Check the last page, I made pretty accurate frame by frame things of it. pretty much every character can roll away even if you do it perfectly. Its fantastic to catch Oos options though, it's great pressure

Ok thanks. It sucks that no matter what I do my can opponent always buffer a roll OOS to escape. Is it possible to react to some characters' rolls and punish or will I need to read the roll?

 

[Soft Serve]

You can totally react and keep the pressure up, just be alert and don't get stuck in a pattern or put blinders on and get fixed on trying to make one thing work

 

[Sail]

Ok so correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like because multishines only have 2 frames of the opponent out of stun that buffered rolls wont work. I've looked at some PM frame data and most chars' rolls begin invincibility on frame 4, so why wouldn't shine hit them first?

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah you're right, I was thinking spot dodges I guess. That gives you 1 frame to catch them out of buffered rolls, If i'm counting frames correctly.

Also, I might have been wrong with my hitlag calculations and it could be 3 frames between perfect multi shines (I'm waiting till 3.5 to make gifs with the debug mode to be 100% sure)

Buffering a roll is still the best option because it gets out of everything but perfect multi shines, and wolf has easy means of punishing rolls and chasing them back down.

Everytime I look at the character his shield pressure gets better and better lol.

 

[Sail]

Yeah you're right, I was thinking spot dodges I guess. That gives you 1 frame to catch them out of buffered rolls, If i'm counting frames correctly.

Also, I might have been wrong with my hitlag calculations and it could be 3 frames between perfect multi shines (I'm waiting till 3.5 to make gifs with the debug mode to be 100% sure)

Buffering a roll is still the best option because it gets out of everything but perfect multi shines, and wolf has easy means of punishing rolls and chasing them back down.

Everytime I look at the character his shield pressure gets better and better lol.

I so hyped for debug mode too haha. How would you recommend practicing frame-perfect multishines alone? I have no idea how to test when I get it perfect except with my toes buffering a roll OOS which sucks lol. I want to make most chars who sheild my nair approaches completely screwed ya know?

 

[Soft Serve]

I so hyped for debug mode too haha. How would you recommend practicing frame-perfect multishines alone? I have no idea how to test it except with my toes buffering a roll OOS which sucks lol.

Unless you have a training partner willing to let you practice shield pressure and buffer rolls for you, I'd just practice double shines on the walls of Shadow Moses Island and do them as fast as possible. If you start with the top halfs of the walls you get 4 walls to wail on before you have to reset.

Alternatively you can drop starman onto a training dummy, both the walls and the starman have the same amount of hitlag as a shield (100% certain on this, magus said so a while ago). The starman method is better to get a sense of spacing against a real character, But I prefer the walls just because Its easier (Doing the re-set code[I'm pretty sure you hold y/x with the rage quit] after LRAstart is less tedious to me than pausing training and dealing with the starman's random bounce patterns)

Oh, If you really want to you can take a controller and set the controls on a tag to all shield then Tape a button down, then put that tag on a character and do the buffered rolls with the c stick with just one foot. I did the foot thing when I made a few Diddy shield pressure tech videos (footstools are broken). I'm putting off making anything for wolf because i'm waiting for 3.5 (plus wolf doesn't need it in his arsenal to be effective, but shine>footstool>instant shine is my favorite thing in the game)

 

[Sail]

Unless you have a training partner willing to let you practice shield pressure and buffer rolls for you, I'd just practice double shines on the walls of Shadow Moses Island and do them as fast as possible. If you start with the top halfs of the walls you get 4 walls to wail on before you have to reset.

Alternatively you can drop starman onto a training dummy, both the walls and the starman have the same amount of hitlag as a shield (100% certain on this, magus said so a while ago). The starman method is better to get a sense of spacing against a real character, But I prefer the walls just because Its easier (Doing the re-set code[I'm pretty sure you hold y/x with the rage quit] after LRAstart is less tedious to me than pausing training and dealing with the starman's random bounce patterns)

Oh, If you really want to you can take a controller and set the controls on a tag to all shield then Tape a button down, then put that tag on a character and do the buffered rolls with the c stick with just one foot. I did the foot thing when I made a few Diddy shield pressure tech videos (footstools are broken). I'm putting off making anything for wolf because i'm waiting for 3.5 (plus wolf doesn't need it in his arsenal to be effective, but shine>footstool>instant shine is my favorite thing in the game)

Thanks that tag idea is brilliant I'm definitly going to use that :D The worst part was holding the sheild button.
EDIT: I'm using Jiggs so the sheild will reset every stock

 

[Phaiyte]

You don't even have to bother with shines that much. Land behind them with nair and hit their shield with an ftilt. They aren't going anywhere safely.

 

[Sail]

You don't even have to bother with shines that much. Land behind them with nair and hit their shield with an ftilt. They aren't going anywhere safely.

If you predict them to go for a sheild then good job but you can't do that everytime or you'll get punished. It should mostly safer to just multishine after nair because the only downside is human limitation and that's not a worthy excuse XD. It's pretty good to mix those up but idk if ftilt would sheild poke after one nair and if not then they can escape nearly unharmed. Even if ftilt would sheild poke it should mostly be a better option to go for a grab or multishine anyway to start a combo if you successfully crossup nair on their sheild. Plus multishines are flashy

 

[Phaiyte]

If you predict them to go for a sheild then good job but you can't do that everytime or you'll get punished. It should mostly safer to just multishine after nair because the only downside is human limitation and that's not a worthy excuse XD. It's pretty good to mix those up but idk if ftilt would sheild poke after one nair and if not then they can escape nearly unharmed. Even if ftilt would sheild poke it should mostly be a better option to go for a grab or multishine anyway to start a combo if you successfully crossup nair on their sheild. Plus multishines are flashy

If they leave their shield they get hit without **** they can do about it.

 

[5ully]

Quick question can you short how behind shields? Cuz when i approch with a nair into shield, i always seem to stop right in front of them, which isnt always a problem cuz i have (multi)shine and shine grabs but sometimes my hands move too fast or not at all and i mess up. SO i guess my actual question is that do i always have to full hop and aim for their back, or can i run through it with a move?

 

[Soft Serve]

Jump later and you'll end up further behind them, if that's what you mean.

You could always running shine at them and If they shield you can nair

 

[Badge]

As I stumbled upon this thread I wanted to make two remarks on multishines:

1. If you shine on the first airborn frame you can still dj out of it for one frame, so perfect multishines become 1 frame slower after the second shine. This also makes it possible to escape via a buffered roll unless you double jump->something out of the multishines.
   
2. As you can't move during multishines, it's possible to get out of range via shield-di, because it can get you further than Wolf can move during them.

These are the reasons why multishines are only a mixup even if performed perfectly.

Edit: Oh, and you can't footstool on the first airborn frame, because you have to be higher than the opponent for the footstool to work.
Edit 2: Correcting myself: You can actually move during multishines, just not enough.

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah I realized the footstool thing a few weeks ago and was too lazy to fix it, was going to go back to it in 3.5

based 8adge with the knowledge drops, I didn't even think about that with multi shines

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm confused though. How come Wolf's multishine has holes in it? Doesn't Wolf have a faster jumpsquat than Falco, making his DS have -1? And also why is he more vulnerable after the second shine? Can't he just do another JC shine and so on so forth?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Speaking of Wolf's jumpsquat, what is it exactly?

Also, why have I never seen a wolf shinegrab? >=(

 

[Ogopogo]

I think it's 4 frames, or whatever is one more than Fox's but one less than Falco's. Which is probably 4

 

[Sail]

I think it's 4 frames, or whatever is one more than Fox's but one less than Falco's. Which is probably 4

Ya, the middle of 3 and 5 is probably 4 XD

 

[Frost | Odds]

Goddamn. That makes DACUS a pretty unreasonable option. =[

edit: says the guy who can now fairly consistently pivot ftilt

SIGH, BACK TO THE LAB I GUESS

 

[victinivcreate1]

If you get decent at performing Wolf's DACUS, you can do any DACUS in the game with significant ease.

I play Snake as a secondary, and I used to have trouble DACUSing with him. Then I played Wolf for two weeks, getting a feel for Wolf's combos, shine tech and DACUS. I play Snake after this and I DACUS 15 times in a row no problem.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I could do roy's (and therefore probably wolf's) dacus fairly consistently a few weeks ago, it's just so hard to nail a 1 frame window more than 80-90% of the time. :/

Whatever, I bound R to taunt for the sole purpose of howlflashing. Having never learned to flash without the howl, I do it literally every time >.>

 

[victinivcreate1]

My cotrol set up has X as grab, Z as jump (for fadeaway fairs) and R as attack (dor DACUS assistance). Howlflashing becomes easy to do with the dpad of you dont have slow fingers.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm confused though. How come Wolf's multishine has holes in it? Doesn't Wolf have a faster jumpsquat than Falco, making his DS have -1? And also why is he more vulnerable after the second shine? Can't he just do another JC shine and so on so forth?

Falco's shine does more damage (8% unstaled) which means more shield stun, making it a bit more busted when it comes to multishines and shine-grabs. If I recall correctly, unstaled shine-grab with Falco is guaranteed. Fox's multishine is faster than Wolf's and does the same damage.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Ohhhh.

So, how bout the PMDT hooking us Wolf players with an 8% shine eh?

 

[Spiffykins]

Ohhhh.

So, how bout the PMDT hooking us Wolf players with an 8% shine eh?

I dunno about 8% but I've always thought 6% would be perfectly fair. I doubt they feel like Wolf's in a position to deserve any sort of buff, though.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wolf will feel like he sucks a lot less when a bunch of other characters are brought in line. It's not really a secret that the other spacies are just straight up broken - Wolf kinda suffers atm because everyone in PM is designed to beat Fox, and Wolf is just a worse Fox.

Fixing that situation is gonna be pretty tough.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Wolf is really balanced. He actually has LOSING matchups even though he's a spacie. Fox arguably doesn't have losing MUs, and Falco is very confusing because it can be argued either way that he has a ton of losing MUs or still has no losing MUs.

 

[Ogopogo]

I love Wolf's design. Strong but still very beatable. And most of his moveset is centered around getting the enemy up into the air and keeping them there. Anyways, what's the window for Wolf's DACUS? Wish we had a page where we could see little pieces of info like that.

 

[Frost | Odds]

if a trigger is set to attack, it's a 1 frame window. o/w a 0 frame window.

it's always (character's jumpsquat) - 3

 

[Yashichi]

if a trigger is set to attack, it's a 1 frame window. o/w a 0 frame window.

What does this mean? I don't use either of the shoulder buttons to DACUS and I get it all the time. I use c-stick to dash attack and then do the control stick inputs for an up smash. Is there some terminology I don't know about or someting

 

[1FD]

Is there any reason to not just always multi-shine sheilds until it pokes?
I don't know how long buffered rolls take to start-up but it seems like 2 frames is too small if a window. If for some reason multi-shines aren't perfect it seems like mixing up how many shines before shine-grab is the best option.

I'd say it more like
Is there any reason to not just always shine-grab shields for free kills?
Seriously, you get so much off grabs if you get them to shield and blaster or nair or dash up approach or ANYTHING that can possibly lead to Grab, including a SHINE on their shield, then GET THAT GRAB
I never multishine more than like once every 20 matches at most
Grabs da bess

What does this mean? I don't use either of the shoulder buttons to DACUS and I get it all the time. I use c-stick to dash attack and then do the control stick inputs for an up smash. Is there some terminology I don't know about or someting

Most of the locals who need DACUS all play claw and for Wolf I just go down on the c-stick (thump) and Up + A (index finger) and get it about 8/10 times usually.
Warning there are some characters that can't use certain controls to DACUS. I think Wolf might be one of the characters that you can't use Z to do it with. I'm pretty sure that's the main reason why I learned claw. LOL

Goddamn. That makes DACUS a pretty unreasonable option. =[

edit: says the guy who can now fairly consistently pivot ftilt

SIGH, BACK TO THE LAB I GUESS

NONO it's not unreasonable YOU GOT THIS!!!
I can do it almost every time, cancel my SideBs like 100% (it's called out when I miss because it's so rare, like missing a knee), WL blasters anywhere any day (except for B-Reverse Wavebounce Fast Fall WLs lol) and DACUS ain't even a big deal since it's the same every time rather than a little different every time.
YOU GOT THIS!!!

+ You pivot ftilt. The local sempei is pivotgod (like I'm talkin DD pivot U/Dtilts with Marth mid combo in MELEE) and he doesn't even play the game more than a few times a year. Tech ain't shiz. Hammer it out and get it in your blood but practice PROPERLY with practice on your ATTENTIVENESS above all else and you wont have to lab much at ALL.

If you're facing in the right direction just keep on walking < sempei quote from ghandi or something

Quick question can you short how behind shields? Cuz when i approch with a nair into shield, i always seem to stop right in front of them, which isnt always a problem cuz i have (multi)shine and shine grabs but sometimes my hands move too fast or not at all and i mess up. SO i guess my actual question is that do i always have to full hop and aim for their back, or can i run through it with a move?

Same to you, land your buttons. THEY'RE JUST BUTTONS
OWN THEM BUTTONS
BE THE BUTTON

YOU'RE A HUMAN-BEING
YOU'RE BEING RIGHT NOW
LIKE YOU'RE BEING A BEING
SO BE THE BUTTON
THE BUTTON-BEING

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I would actually recommend to mix up between shinegrab and doubleshinegrab (a few more ordinary shinegrabs than doubleshinegrabs). It is the most efficient way to
- not mess up
- mix up between punishing instant OoS and waiting

Of course ordinary waveshines too, but those two help a lot.

You can't use Z for Wolf DACUS indeed because his jumpsquat is 4 frames, here is the confirmation