Wolf moveset discussion. W00t.

[ElPadrino]

I love F-tilt. When it doesn't hit a shield... <_<

Seriously if Ftilt hits its good damage, enough knockback to avoid punishment and almost no startup lag or cooldown.

The problem, as stated many times already, is when it is shielded. Any decent opponent will grab or roll and then punish you.

It's good as a surprise attack and depletes the shield fairly well if the opponent doesn't punish on time.

I tend to use dtilt a bit more for presuring because all in all it's safer on shield.

 

[AssaultX]

Does the knockback vary upon angle?

 

[ArcPoint]

That's a good question o.O

Also, can Metaknight Dtilt or Ftilt in between the two hits?

 

[ElPadrino]

I don't think you can attack in between the hits, because putting away your shield will make the second hitbox appear and you'll get hit, I think you can just grab (because grab priority beats the hit) or roll.

I might be wrong though, so don't take this post too seriously.

 

[AssaultX]

Marth's Up-b gives him 5 invincibility frames starting at frame 1, so the thought of it is pretty viable. -1 for our f-tilt there.

 

[Dv8tor]

I've tried using different angles to send someone in a more horizontal trajectory, but it doesn't seem to matter enough to be significant.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

F-tilt is a decent technique for spacing on ground level.

 

[Ishiey]

I've been jabbed by a lucario during ftilt, so... yeah, MK can probably throw out a tilt at you.

 

[FatalX]

Ftilt definitely ain't worst, that's dtilt lol.

Ftilt can actually be pretty helpful, it can be a shield poker, and helps distance your opponent in tight spots.

 

[Blazer]

Ftilt is Wolf's best tilt. Utilt is ridixulously hard to hit with and Dtilt pretty much serves no purpose at all. Ftilt can usually hit if the opponent tries to just perfect sheild, has SOME kill power, and okay range.

 

[ElPadrino]

Utilt is not hard to hit at all in the right circumstances...

It has a falrly nice hitbox, very decent killing potential out of Wolf's moves, decent damage, amazing priority and comes out really fast.

The only downside that is very significant is that it has a LOT of cooldown lag, and if you don't hit with it you WILL get punished.

But yes, Ftilt is wolf's best tilt. But not by as much as people give credit for.

Dtilt is very underrated, it can trip for a free grab at low percentages, it's very quick and it's a nice follow up for almost anything, most importantly a jab cancel.

 

[ArcPoint]

I honestly don't like using Ftilt. That's just me, the risk far outweighs the rewards in my opinion. I mean, you have to space it PERFECTLY, I don't even space Bair perfectly every time I use it, so why should I expect Ftilt to be spaced perfectly every time it hits a shield?

The move is great for punishing, however its uses do not extend far beyond that.

 

[arch knight]

I honestly don't like using Ftilt. That's just me, the risk far outweighs the rewards in my opinion. I mean, you have to space it PERFECTLY, I don't even space Bair perfectly every time I use it, so why should I expect Ftilt to be spaced perfectly every time it hits a shield?

The move is great for punishing, however its uses do not extend far beyond that.

true but it serves its purpose of shield eating and punishment all moves done by wolf are usefful his down A is great near edges at 50% or higher as it has good distance and knocks them pretty far even when you use it middle stage

 

[ArcPoint]

Second hit doesn't do crap to their shield (But it's still safe I think) while hitting with both hits is a free grab/jab/any other fast move.

 

[arch knight]

Second hit doesn't do crap to their shield (But it's still safe I think) while hitting with both hits is a free grab/jab/any other fast move.

the second hit isnt really ment to hurt shield but either hit them if they drop the guard or push you away but since you suffer moment lag better be quick on your next move as you said

 

[AssaultX]

100th post ^.^ Anyway...

So in other words knight, f-tilt's second hit can either punish a dropped shield, or give your opponent a free shield grab, depending on the opponent's experience of being attacked by f-tilt?

In my opinion, the situation does'nt seem very favorable.

 

[ArcPoint]

Which is why I choose not to potentially put myself in it.

 

[AssaultX]

Exactly why f-tilt is one of Wolf's (riskiest?) moves. Does it reliably follow up to anything? Laser and boost smash come to mind here, given that the victim doesn't DI upward...

 

[castorpollux]

well anytime u can safely f-smash, why not f-tilt if ur in range? It'll keep f-smash fresher

 

[Dv8tor]

In my experience so far the fsmash gets me punished a lot more than when I ftilt. If you miss with the tilt then cool down is pretty fast. One other use for the ftilt I've found is using it against DDD. Some players use a waddle doo in front of them to extend their fsmash, this can be used inversely against DDD with the ftilt at the right moments. Not something amazing, but any Wolf mains should learn every little thing to use against anyone, especially DDD.

 

[Captain Sa10]

In the Case of Arc: I have no other choic but to agree with the fact that yes, it is a risky move. Although, it's his playstyle really, so it's really harder to judge f-tilt from another point of view since most of the pros and cons outweigh each other.

If you think about it, your target has 50% chance of guessing what you'll follow up with. An intelligent player will usually sheild expecting a follow up such as the f-tilt. That's way the whole spacing thing comes into play, in order to turn the odds in your favor.

Yes: A well spaced F-tilt can usually be avoided from sheildgrabs and connect with the second hit.

Yes: You have about the same chance of being grabbed if your spacing is incorrect.

Yes: It's useful as an edgeguard as it can be angled in different degree's, thus giving it some flexibility.

Yes: There are better opinions such as the D-tilt for poking and gaurding with tilts(perferably if your opponent is below the stage).

Yes: This is a risky move, but its up to you as the player to determine weither or not the situation calls for an f-tilt.

In my case, I would much rather preserver my f-smash, and use my f-tilt after spaced bairs and such. In fact, I would feel safer f-tilting after I sheild an act since it'll most likely connect because its unsuspecting. IMO, edgegaurding with f-tilt is more superior then the d-tilt since you have to add in the arc radius of the f-tilt, which actually reachs rather far and about the same length as the d-tilt. Jab>f-tilt can vary just as any mix-up can, making f-tilt an even more viable compilation to wolf's moveset.


SO IN THEORY:

The f-tilt is a double edged sword in which it can help you in one case, and destroy you in another.

 

[ArcPoint]

There are no guaranteed followups for the second hit of Ftilt or both (Melee perhaps?) but you can chase, see what they do and punish accordingly. Example: They do their Fair, it hits your shield, you grab and Dthrow =D

 

[Dv8tor]

Is there any combos that incorporate this move?

 

[Ishiey]

Bair > ftilt, or dtilt (trip) > ftilt. At least, that's as far as true combos go.

 

[ArcPoint]

On an the side, does Bair help with the actual spacing of the Ftilt (As in, it allows you to get the proper spacing for the second hit?)

 

[Dv8tor]

They seem to have similar range, if you test it you could find out how to perfectly space the tilt by judging a bair correctly then ftilting to surprise someone.

 

[Phantom7]

Jab is a fast attack, and it's really good, i've actually KOd with it before. But you can be punished if it misses, I've noticed that.

 

[Dv8tor]

We're on ftilt now, jab was earlier

 

[Ishiey]

Arc, if you space a bair to it's fullest, you really shouldn't be hitting with your ftilt... I've never understood why exactly everyone does bair ftilt, I've never used it and don't see it being too helpful. Can someone please clarify it's purpose for me?

 

[Dv8tor]

It's supposedly an inescapable combo as shown on the tactics discussions

 

[ArcPoint]

At what percentages? On what type of character (Light heavy etc)?

 

[Ishiey]

It's just a standard bair combo, once you start to send them airborne, a badly spaced bair can combo into many things. I just see people do it automatically, and then I keep wondering why their moronic opponent doesn't shieldgrab.

 

[Captain Sa10]

the reason why you spaced Bair>F-tilt is to connect with the tip which is slightly disjointed. It also has the chance to hit more likely with both hits since an opponent they may be guarding your wall pull sin and gets that damag from the f-tilt. In a sense, f-tilt is a defense tactic, better then using f-smash if you dont connect with the bair, and usually keep you a safe distance away from others except for maybe D3 if he's close enough. Works well on most characters from 0-70%ish.

 

[Zen127]

Ftilt is a pretty situational move. I'd rather use this to punish than with Fsmash depending on my position where the punishing is guaranteed. This can also trick the opponent at times but if shielded perfectly it WILL be punished. Spacing with ftilt isn't that hard either, but I wouldn't go into that.

I'm starting to wonder about mixing jabs up with ftilt because I think it may prove useful with spacing away from punishment. Can someone test this?

 

[Sirus109]

at wat percentage can ftilt ko??

 

[Ishiey]

Thanks for the explanation Captain. That's what I thought, but I guess my personal preference would be more bairs >_>

@ Zen, I honestly haven't tried jab ftilt, but assuming my opponent knows well enough to shieldgrab it, I wouldn't ever try it. I'll try to remember to try it out sometime though, and get back to you. I don't really see how it would be useful for preventing punishment though, ftilt is quick but not quick enough, and very punishable if shielded at that range.

Another question, I read on the jiggly boards that ftilt angled down would outprioritize tether upBs (I think, they mentioned olimar at least), maybe our ftilt can do the same?

 

[Blazer]

Now that I`m thinking about it... Ftilt seems to get the 2nd faster hit in more when directed up or down, at least from my experience. Maybe I'm wrong though. If it is though, that could help avoid sheildgrabs and such couldn't it?

 

[ArcPoint]

Really....that deserves some looking into.

 

[Zen127]

Thanks for the explanation Captain. That's what I thought, but I guess my personal preference would be more bairs >_>

@ Zen, I honestly haven't tried jab ftilt, but assuming my opponent knows well enough to shieldgrab it, I wouldn't ever try it. I'll try to remember to try it out sometime though, and get back to you. I don't really see how it would be useful for preventing punishment though, ftilt is quick but not quick enough, and very punishable if shielded at that range.

Another question, I read on the jiggly boards that ftilt angled down would outprioritize tether upBs (I think, they mentioned olimar at least), maybe our ftilt can do the same?

Try using two jabs, not one. Two connected jabs will either move your opponent far from you or not at all depending on his DI. If he doesn't DI during the jabs and he has his shield up, you can quickly space yourself a little back from the opponent and try Ftilt so you won't be shield grabbed, OR if he does move farther away then just let the Ftilt off because he's already spaced himself for you.

Edit- You can also angle the Ftilt for shield poking to make this strat better.

I don't really know 100% though. TEST PLZ.

 

[ArcPoint]

Okay, time to discuss Nair.