Wolf moveset discussion. W00t.

[AssaultX]

The only time I use n-air is to combo break, but even that is situational. Generally, the people that favor it would say it's a nice combo starter, but in my experience, it isn't. You're giving the opponent a free shield-grab if you approach with it.

...This move needed more hitstun. Then it would actually become a decent move.

 

[Ishiey]

Try using two jabs, not one. Two connected jabs will either move your opponent far from you or not at all depending on his DI. If he doesn't DI during the jabs and he has his shield up, you can quickly space yourself a little back from the opponent and try Ftilt so you won't be shield grabbed, OR if he does move farther away then just let the Ftilt off because he's already spaced himself for you.

Edit- You can also angle the Ftilt for shield poking to make this strat better.

I don't really know 100% though. TEST PLZ.

True for the jabs, I just neglected the spacing bit in favor of being lazy speed. It actually sounds like a good mixup though... I'll try this stuff out a bit when I get the chance, along with the angling, and get back to you once I have enough to say about it.


On to nair. Mediocre at best, but your quickest aerial, so yeah, keep that in mind. Shine is better in the air for combobreaking and all though. Main point about nair is that it has very little landing lag, so use it to hit people in front of you in situations where fair would have bad landing lag. It can lock with weak hits and be used for gimping sorta, but you almost always have better options. Nair works better on people who lack matchup experience though, so it might be worth a shot then.

Edit: This.

...This move needed more hitstun. Then it would actually become a decent move.

 

[AssaultX]

Oh, right, forgot about the n-air gimp. That's most likely one of its better uses, even though I usually try to stage spike with b-air when I choose to go off stage.

NEEDS MOAR HITSUN

 

[Blazer]

Hitstun on nair is bad, and usually I don't prefer to be right on my opponent like nair requires. It's useful for getting a surprise hit in once in a while, and sometimes combo disruption, other than that I'm not fond of it.

 

[ArcPoint]

What is interesting though: Those hits that don't have hitstun are flinch hits, if they hit an opponent, they make them flinch, any move that they were previously starting up, will cease to start up (And thus not happen)

 

[Dv8tor]

The only problem is that the opponent only has to hit the A button to stop that in its tracks. Nair can flinch people, but usually I get punished for using it so it's very rare that I use it. If you can gimp with the nair then is there a vid or something for it? I've heard of doing this to Fox or Falco, but does it work on all characters?

 

[Ishiey]

^ Personally, you're better off gimping fox and falco with shine. Nair can work though, because the weak hits can go through their upB iirc.

 

[Sirus109]

Nair is faster then bair??

does that make it the better recovery??

 

[Blazer]

Nair is faster then bair??

does that make it the better recovery??

No, since it takes longer to let you have control again I believe.

 

[ArcPoint]

I've heard from Omniswell that Nair has that "sucking in" property, similar to Ganon's Utilt. However shine is better than Nair for gimping space animals. And they will need an attack where the hitbox will come out before the next flinching attack comes out. So you won't get like a Warlock Punch or a Falcon Punch when you do Nair, but you will get hit by a fast attack >_>

 

[Zen127]

If done and practiced right, you can Nair to Fast fall for much better DI survival from the Star KO.

 

[Ishiey]

If done and practiced right, you can Nair to Fast fall for much better DI survival from the Star KO.

Would nair be better than bair?... Because the main purpose would be to have the fastest attack to come out so you can fast fall asap for a star KO, right?

And not all hits of nair have flinch properties, I believe.

 

[Miso]

I'm actually pretty fond of Nair for some reason. I use it sparingly, but whenever I do decide to mix it into my game its unexpected and therefore not a lot of people react to it quickly. My main use is combo-breaking; the first hit is a nice "get away from me" attack (especially since you can follow it up with a DAC or Autocancelled Bairs)

One of my favorite things to do with Nair is tech chase however -- usually after a Dthrow. Dthrow -> Nair -> Ftilt/Jab usually finds its way into my matches once or twice. I know there are better options (like DAC or pivot-grab after they get back up) but I find that those are expected...therefore are easy to read.

Just my two cents

 

[ArcPoint]

---------------------------

Awesome, we're doing shine now ^_^

I just use it as an alternative to an airdodge. If people like using Snake's Ftilt to punish your landing lag, you can just shine and the Ftilt goes away =D

 

[Dv8tor]

Shine is basically an amazing counter, 6 frames of invincibility and stun with knock back, what more could you want? Oh yeah and it combo breaks! Right now I'm trying to figure out what all the good combo moves are after hitting someone with a shine.

 

[Dessie542]

I've been playing Wifi pretty much non-stop and have come to find that a lot of the time I can DI out of a star KO and when I hit the ground I can shine my opponent and sneak in a Dsmash or Fsmash while they are stunned. Most people on WiFi seem pretty bad though, like even worse than me D:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shine is one of Wolfs most important moves. His dair might be underrated but it's not a reliable counter for juggle traps...and that's exactly why shine is so important: Because it beats all moves and he has no other move that keeps the spot below him in the air safe.
As Arc mentioned above it's also an amazing replacement for airdoges. I see a lot of Kirbys trying to get opponents to airdodge with either uair or bair. Then he gets a good chance to land his SideB, which is lethal. Many characters can do similar things ... I've seen Bum using fair with DK offstage vs MK. The MK airdodged, DK went right through it behind MK then Bum stagespiked him with bair, which was amazing. Many people fall for such relatively simple traps because you're options are minimal in such situations. Having a reliable move like the shine that gets you almost always out of such situations is a blessing.

 

[ArcPoint]

It's not uncounterable, people could bait the shine if you just always spam it as an alternate airdodge. However it's one other option that you can use to keep your airgame unpredictable.

 

[Phantom7]

ftilt isn't that bad, it does have 2 hits. I use it near the edge to get people in the air so I can bair them off the screen.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Shine is pretty nice. You can like escape being juggled and stuff. Its pretty nice as it gives you a few framed of invincibility which can be handy. As for the reflecting projectile part it does what it does but usually I just avoid projectiles as your opponent could punish you for reflecting them. Another random thing is if your facing the stage you can randomly use the reflector to turn around in midair as you can turn around while using it.

and something random is SH B-air and then you double jump and use the reflector and follow it up with a reverse blaster. the odds of it working are pretty low(the opponent has to be like pretty low % too) but its kool if you actually pull it off.

 

[Ishiey]

What everyone else said. Does anyone use the rolling out of shine for anything useful?

 

[AssaultX]

^That seems like a viable way for a gtfo tactic if you're rolling away. Rolling toward and behind them sounds like a cool mindgame, but rolls are too easy to punish if the opponents know what you're doing...

 

[ArcPoint]

What are the mechanics of that? Isn't it you have to reflect a projectile then roll in the process? Or is it that the shine has to "Hit" something?

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, you have to reflect something. I've messed around with it a little before, but didn't come up with anything too useful.

 

[castorpollux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq1vCtv1wKU

 

[mith132]

Lol castor that is epic

 

[SelfPossessed]

Thread necro, for great justice. I propose a revival of a perfectly good thread that died for no good reason.

Nair

Weak nair steals jumps and interrupts ur opponents actions as well as combos into other moves. Example was against MK. It stole his jump and he messed up.

Shine

1) it stops all aerial approaches
2) it's a great way to escape being pressured

u know the standard lucario approach? the fair -> dair. Jumpshine OOS obliterates that approach entirely.

It's all theorycraft, but Wolf might be able to use jump Shine to position himself for a Bair punish the way Wario uses jump airdodge to position himself for a Dair. Wolf's AD just lasts too long considering his fall speed, but Shine ends even earlier than Bair. The invinc frames will hopefully get you out of most SH attacks even if the Shine isn't in range to hit the opponent. Again, theorycraft.

 

[Semifer]

Wolf can only do one combination of two attacks in a SH, that's shine and Nair, so you can do SH shine to Nair which is a true combo, and then you can follow up with Dacus, Fsmash, Dash grab etc. But it only works on Characters who can be hit by a SH shine, but most of them are.
Well this is nothing really useful, but it can't be bad to know =P.

 

[smashkng]

His reflector is useful for reflecting projectiles (obviously), escaping chain grabs and safely survive a KO in the last frame. Anything more?

 

[Seagull Joe]

short hop shine can lead to dsmash at certain percentages.useful for killin.works on certain characters better then others.also jump air shine to bair.odd but it works everytime i used it.probably cause no one would do that to begin with

 

[Vista]

Good for ledge pressure, can interrupt ledge jumps into Dsmash

Extremely useful for edgeguarding, it goes through everything and can shinespike.

 

[Darxmarth23]

The initial flash of the shine contains very decent priority, and range causing it to stop most approaches and recoveries. The pre lag frames have invincibility. And it is a great move to back yourself up with.

Hello Wolf boards.

 

[ArcPoint]

Indeed, the shine I think has a lot of potential, especially with JJ's jumpshine.

Okay, with the revival of this thread, props to SelfPossessed, I have finished the summaries on all of the moves we've (Semi) discussed so far, obviously they're not the best, and I would like your guys' input on them before I finalize these summaries. The next moves in the moveset discussion we will summarize as we go, just kinda put things together from the discussion.

 

[Semifer]

short hop shine can lead to dsmash at certain percentages.useful for killin.works on certain characters better then others.also jump air shine to bair.odd but it works everytime i used it.probably cause no one would do that to begin with

No, shine to Dsmash isn't a true combo, and wtf @ certain percentages, shine does always have the same KB and hitstun. The only true combos are shine to jab, shine to Nair and I think shine to Bair. Btw: A good chance to use shine to Bair is if your opponent is on a platform, just do a FH shine and then Bair, but the timing is not easy.

I suggest blaster for the next move to discuss =O.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I suggest blaster for the next move to discuss =O.

I second this.

Shine is a nice fast and defensive maneuver in which you can change the direction the battle is leading.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Sebastian

I can't get SH Shine -> Nair to combo. The Shine pushes them pretty far away.

-----------------

Arcpoint

Hurray, the thread is revived! About your summaries though:

1. The summaries should be the general consensus of the discussion, not your own personal opinion about the move.
2. Some information is missing from the summaries.
3. Provide a link for each move to where the discussion takes place.
4. I'd personally prefer a list of points for the summaries.

 

[ArcPoint]

List of points...that'd be easier to read. Only Nair had something of my opinion =P I tried to get the general census as I remembered it.

Information missing....for example?

Link to each discussion...we kinda did it in the same topic =S I guess the next discussions we'll have in separate threads.

 

[Semifer]

Sebastian

I can't get SH Shine -> Nair to combo. The Shine pushes them pretty far away.

You have to run (I think going works as well) and press almost (< Important! Otherwise you do SideB) diagonally down in direction to your opponent. You also have to use it close to your opponent. It's a bit tricky but quite useful, because you can still jump away if your opponent shields the shine. So it's a low risk medium till high (If you can follow up with Fsmash) reward approach. Other than shine to jab: If you opponent shields it, you will be punished. But that combo is more flexibel, because you can use it whenever shine hits him most of the time.

And please call me Semifer^^. (It's a pain not to be able to change the nick)

 

[SelfPossessed]

@ Arcpoint

Ftilt: This move in my opinion is Wolf's worst move. But that's just my opinion, discuss away ^_^

Summary for Ftilt: It can be good if you don't have anything else to punish something with. But generally the best way to go is to space it at the edge so you don't get that massive/punishable lag in between hits. I don't like it lol.

There's a lot of your opinions in the summaries. I could point out more examples if you like.

For information missing, an example is Jump Shine being used to stop approaches.

For links, I mean linking to the specific page the discussion started on and indicating the post number on that page.

 

[ArcPoint]

That first part wasn't part of the summary, that was part of the discussion starter. So I had a little bit of opinion in a summary.

If you want me to list each use of each move....I'm gonna be there for a while. I think (lemme check) that I said that there's invincibility involved with it, so one can infer that it can go through attacks. I am honestly not going to bother trying to list every single use for a move, because uses change and vary from person to person and as time goes on.

And I personally have 40 (or 45?) posts per page, so where the discussion starts for me (And others using different posts per page) is different from where the standard 15 posts per page is. I think I'll just do threads.

Thanks for your input, I do appreciate it. And as per request, I'mma start up the blaster discussion ASAP.