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Wofl Q&A/Social

Ishiey

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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I'm going to break things down into the pros and cons each character has against Wolf (imo) for simplicity. Let me know if you think I missed anything or have something wrong.


MK
+ very effective ledge pressure
+ able to stay very safe against Wolf's ledge pressure
+ so many options at neutral, basically what Kain said
+ safe as holy hell when we aren't, coupled with superior defensive options (especially OoS)
+ can harass us very effectively off-stage
- dies early
- can't CG us like most of our bad MUs lol

Wario
+ survivability advantage
+ lots of damage from CG
+ able to stay safe with mobility and exploit defensive holes with it
- lacks disjoints and range, making shine pretty awesome when it's not exposing you to grabs (aka jumpshine)
- no true setups into grab
- gets walled out


Mildly related, but if you space a bair really well on MK's shield he can't hit it with upB OoS. If they try to and whiff, run at him to get behind the glide attack hitbox and then jump > bair/uair for a punish. It's decently helpful, I find it easier than hoping they're slow and shielding > FH fair.


The main issue I have is that for characters of such similar difficulty (at least in my eyes), it's weird to see them in two different MU categories. Just because one has a CG doesn't mean they're automatically worse for us :x

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Wolf McBlue

Wolf McBlue

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Well I am going to be attending WABA and knowing this bit of info against mk is good to know. But all my friends say I should use my pocket Olimar instead of wolf against any mk I fight since the match up is better.

Also should wolf not approach from below on most characters since I've been watching my vids and I get punished for approaching from below (try to mix with uair, fair, nair) and when I watch other's vids they don't approach from below often.
 
M.C. Pee-Pants

M.C. Pee-Pants

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One grab = 1 stock wario doesent even have to do that much work all he needs is 40% wario doesent have to approach wolf wolf can bair and fair all day but all that is is just bait if the wario just has to wait for a mistake and bam its a stock you have to think of this mu in wario terms and mks worlds since I dont think any of you wolves have the this mu against wolf
 
Ishiey

Ishiey

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MCP, you should try using punctuation in your posts. It would make them a helluva lot easier to read :p

Wario has a harder time getting the lead imo, but it's nothing too substantial. And if Wario is going for nothing but the grab after you hit CG %s, he's going to lose lol. No setups into grab, remember? So just... stay away from his grab range.

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MegaRobMan

MegaRobMan

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*looks at matchup chart*

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that a character having a massive CG significantly impacts the supposed difficulty of the matchup.

Having played some really good Warios and some of the best MK's

Wario is almost as difficult as MK without the CG. Wario's ffnair is ********, bite is stupid, if Wario is under you ****'s whack.

Also I think MCP is saying that none of us play as Wario or MK (minus seagull) so we don't really know how it works from their POV.
 
Seagull Joe

Seagull Joe

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NNID
SeagullJoe
MegaRobMan said:
*looks at matchup chart*

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that a character having a massive CG significantly impacts the supposed difficulty of the matchup.

Having played some really good Warios and some of the best MK's

Wario is almost as difficult as MK without the CG. Wario's ffnair is ********, bite is stupid, if Wario is under you ****'s whack.

Also I think MCP is saying that none of us play as Wario or MK (minus seagull) so we don't really know how it works from their POV.
Click to expand...
My :metaknight: ***** :wolf: players. Matchup must be -3.

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Ishiey

Ishiey

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No, but he did play me. At APEX 2010. When I was bad and didn't know how to deal with MK.
I'm still bad and don't know how to deal with MK

SH nair on my shield > uair to beat out my usmashes OoS was really irritating though lol. Pretty sure a faster move can punish (nair for sure, maybe bair/fair), but usmash ;__;

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~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

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I mean, I can tell you my opinion on Wario vs MK / Wario but I don't want to be misunderstood, which is what I think is happening here. My goal in a discussion is to understand my counterpart's point of view and learn from it rather than to be 'right' in the end. Since you pretty much gave me what I wanted to know it's up to you whether you want to know my opinion as well.

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Ishiey

Ishiey

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Well, I'm mostly curious as to which opinions of mine you agree with, and how/why your opinion differs. I'd like to get a better idea of why people think MK is easier than Wario (I really don't think the CG alone makes it a one-sided topic), and tbh I don't know much about your opinion besides Wario is almost as bad as D3 and MK is a reasonable MU.

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~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

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Ishieymoro said:
MK
+ very effective ledge pressure
+ able to stay very safe against Wolf's ledge pressure
+ so many options at neutral, basically what Kain said
+ safe as holy hell when we aren't, coupled with superior defensive options (especially OoS)
+ can harass us very effectively off-stage
Click to expand...
@Ledge pressure: MK can cover our options better but since we have to look out for RCO lag shenanigans Wario can get massive rewards from covering the correct option ... and getting a grab against an opponent that comes back from the ledge isn't that big an achievement.

@Staying safe agaist ledge pressure: I don't see really how. While MK can plank he's not a character who has an easy time getting back from the ledge. Bair and shine still covers his options or reset the situation.

@Neutral: Yeah he has a lot of options and good ones in neutral position but once again they aren't something Wolf can't reasonably deal with and they aren't much more threatening than Wario's [whose jab, nair, weak dair, clap and utilt all can either set-up a grab or put us in a bad position]. It's something both characters can use against us.

@Safe: Well yeah he has safe options but they aren't much safer than Wolf's. He punishes well but he still needs a read, a powershield or a mistake from Wolf's side.

@Offstage: Wario can do that as well, except that he's faster in the air.


Wario
- no true setups into grab
- gets walled out
Click to expand...
@No set-ups: All the moves I mentioned above require the correct reaction to not get followed up by a grab and the reaction can still be read by the Wario player [since it typically involves us DIing away, giving Wario chase options that can lead to grabs again].

@Walled out: Yeah, that is essentially the reason why without the CG the match-up is even. But MK isn't even anyway.

Wario without CG: 0
MK: -1
Wario with CG: -2

imo

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Ishiey

Ishiey

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@ ledge pressure, fair enough, but I really don't think it's hard to, y'know, not use options that put you in a grabbable position from the ledge vs Wario. What big risks do we take by jumping from the ledge? If he's on the ground for the grab we can get high enough to shine uair on reaction, or sideB cancel away / land on a platform if he's still waiting on the ground.

@ staying safe on the ledge, he can just sit there. Idk, maybe I haven't figured it out, but if we're not at max blaster range we have no safe options to combat him getting off unless he's stupid or we make a hard read. Much harder than it is for us to ledge pressure most other characters imo. If we're too far away, he can AD through blaster and shield/react from there; if we're too close he can uair plank or tornado us. This is over-simplified of course, but his options are a lot better than most other characters imo.

@ neutral, they're hard to deal with just because of how many there are and, as I'll get to next, safety compared to ours. Wario is a lot slower from neutral and lacks the range as well to really pose much of a threat if we're playing safe. Like, really, of those moves only dair kinda applies pressure at neutral imo :x

@ safeness, I disagree. He has more viable options, that are faster, safer, and allow for more (viable) mixups. I don't want to pull up frame data, but his ftilt/ftilt2/dtilt/grab/dsmash/fsmash/upB/tornado/nair/fair vs our fair/bair/dsmash/jab/grab/ftilt maaaaybe. Just the fact that he has a go-to OoS move for every tiny mistake we make (upB) vs our varying responses to his ridiculous amount of options that only work off of a read / secondary punishment (a read) / insane reaction time makes this a pain. I also should've clarified that I meant staying safe in a range where we usually threaten the rest of the cast (bair range).

@ offstage, Wario's hits don't put us in positions anywhere near as bad as MKs imo. He also has a harder time forcing us to recover in positions that leave us overly vulnerable (easy to shine through if we're above stage and don't flow together as well)

@ Wario stuff, fair enough I suppose.

Do you think MK is closer to Wario or Snake/Diddy etc in terms of difficulty? Also, I know I said "imo" like 10 times but all of this is, obviously, imo :p

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Rizen

Rizen

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My 2 cents (what the heck, I'll say something):
General grab opinion: People (in general, not here) say 'don't get grabbed', which is duh, not helpful. ICs have the worst grab range in the game, bad air mobility and must have both together to CG. However they're CG is 0%-death. If people didn't get grabbed ICs would not be the 4th highest character. Brawl is an extremely PS/grab based game. Wario has better mobility and grab stats (range, etc) which is why I'm weighing the CG element so heavily.

Wario can survive to crazy %s and Wolf is not the most powerful character. Wario's weight, great recovery and building fart attack give him leeway to land a grab. But without the CG the MU is even; Wario can take Wolf down without landing a successful grab too and, like with ICs etc, the threat of the grab is a pain in it's self. Wario matches our mobility and has tricks up his sleeve like bike, fart and Bite to make the fight even less strait forward. Wario out-survives, overpowers, CGs and has a bag of tricks that dilute Wolf's reach/spacing advantage. And Wolf doesn't have great disjoint except for Fair/Uair so bite can get our leg.

MK is, well MK. But Wolf has a tools to deal with him that most characters, particularly under high tier, don't. We're fast, good reach, Shine/Blaster/Ftilt(?) can stop his specials. MK has the upper hand for sure but we can actually deal with his MK BS with smarts and mobility. Our recovery is better than most of the cast; MK is the gimp master after all. We have airspeed, fallspeed, a quick sideB with lightstep/scarring tactics and a decent range upB to fall back on. MK's light weight gives us a shot at quick KOing him without having to build tons of damage. Except for on certain stages we have a manageable slight disadvantage.

vs Wario or MK losing the lead sucks big-time. Wario lives forever and we must approach, which puts him in a good position. MK is the best non-range attack planker and also 'cuts' down approaches. However if MK's at a high % from the last stock then a smart Bair/Fair/Smash can take him out. Wario lives better and has more shots to land a CG.

Keep in mind that MK-1 (or -2 depending on stage choices) and Wario -2 are still only 1 point apart or arguably evenly bad.
 
~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

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I think Snake is kinda bad for us and definitely not compareable to Diddy Kong.

I think Diddy, Falco and ICs are 45/55, Snake and MK are 4/6 and Wario is 35/65. This is where I feel the +/- ratios are becoming ******** because we're definitely not even with Diddy but putting it as the same -1 that Snake and MK are also doesn't look right at all. Putting MK / Snake as -2 would be a complete stretch in my book though.

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Ishiey

Ishiey

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Damn, it's going to be crowded again lol. Can you guarantee that the two people coming with you won't make anything difficult for me and be good guests and blablabla? Because if so, sounds good :p

Man, I was so lucky last year, all of my guests were great. Looking forward to an equally awesome batch this year :3

EDIT @ Gheb: speaking of Diddy, is LP interested in coming to APEX?

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tekkie

tekkie

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Gheb_01 said:
I think Snake is kinda bad for us and definitely not compareable to Diddy Kong.

I think Diddy, Falco and ICs are 45/55, Snake and MK are 4/6 and Wario is 35/65. This is where I feel the +/- ratios are becoming ******** because we're definitely not even with Diddy but putting it as the same -1 that Snake and MK are also doesn't look right at all. Putting MK / Snake as -2 would be a complete stretch in my book though.

:059:
Click to expand...
i agree with this completely :O

Ishieymoro said:
Man, I was so lucky last year, all of my guests were great. Looking forward to an equally awesome batch this year :3
Click to expand...
YEAH WE WERE <3

edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzFtUgxx_j4&t=1m9s

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sorry seagull but that was awesome :#
 
rsr2

rsr2

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No, I am going to have them take a dump on your pillow. I am going to make it the worst experience possible.
 
~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

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Lp is interested in coming along to Apex with me. I'll try to book by the start of october but as usual I can't make any promises.

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rsr2

rsr2

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Booo you have foiled my plans.

Also Tekkie, you better be going to Apex again. Needs to be super kawaii time!!!
 
Rizen

Rizen

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