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From that match i noticed a few things that aren't even wolf specific that cost u the game...
Stop landing right in front of their grab range. Their standing grab is rather mediocre. Idk if u just weren't paying attention to his zoning in or what but each time u didn't DJ away or jump shine or anything u just landed right there and gave him the free grab. Almost every time u got grabbed it was cuz of this.
On SV follow the platform with your movement. By having yourself flow with the movement of the platform it gives u an escape in emergencies. I feel this is better in the long run than the momentary relief of pressure simply retreating provides.
Don't attempt a dacus at the beginning of the match @.@(even though u didn't get punished for it...horrible idea)
It's the moment of impending doom after they grab that I hate. Watching your character get thrown back and forth without being able to do a d*** thing about it.
I mean, if you are playing on FD, yeah. But on BF wolf has a lot of options, shine becomes WAY more viable if you platform camp because if you miss, you aren't gonna get grabbed for a punish. (
for IC's imo). Dair becomes way more viable because of platform camping. Retreating fair becomes more viable if they are on a platform above you. Blaster becomes safer if you jump jump/blast to get rid of the air-zone in the middle.
Delfino is like the same design as BF against IC's (not against sharks), in that you can always retreat below or above you, much like the fight vs the
. Your moves are always viable because you can retreat above where you can't get grabbed or you can just start over and go to the bottom, or better yet when they are on the highest peak you can u-air those mofos with wolfs disjointed claws. When you get to a land area with water, water camp assuming nana is still alive. You have to know the stage and when the transformation is coming so you don't get gimped/ledge guarded. When the stage doesn't have water to escape from, use wolfs superior air speed to camp whatever area you can find. Side-b cancelling can be godly in that one spot with the walk offs on both sides.
D-tilt is good if used sparingly on all stages because no one expects it, it's a good shield poke making bair's more likely to hit nana at least.
Brinstar makes the matchup +3 wolf
BF is probably +2
DF/RC is probably +1
SV/PS1 is even.
All other stages are in IC's favor or I don't know enough about. Halberd has nice things like bombs and lasers and grappler arms, but the stage overall is in his favor, but I could see Wolf doing well there with a good gameplan.
I actually think my advice here is good, since I have
made Hylian switch off of IC's
Beat Future
Twice reverse 3 stocked Lux (once in a MM and once in the most hype match at Jokers tournament [and it was a friendly].)
Last year around this time I used to think IC's wolf was +3 IC's, but now I think it's even, and it's because of the CP system, if SOLO IC's don't win game 1, they won't win unless they outplay their opponent super hard on their opponents CP.
There are a few MUs where Link does a little better than Wolf. ICs is one imo. My problem is I don't play any characters who do well vs several high tiers. AKA the most common MUs :/ .
As someone who basically co-mained Link and at minimum has a LT champion caliber Link
1st at Jokers and 4th out of 30+ people at a kansas super regional
I do NOT agree with that.
Link does have ONE move that's safer on shield than bair and d-tilt blaster, BOMB. However, air dodge makes getting around links arrows/boomerang a joke. Retreating nair is pretty good, but bair is better unless you have some ledge games I'm not used to, I've seen it with Samus's Zair vs IC's before.
Link can for sure get out of CG's easier than Wolf due to BOMBS. And yeah, you can just do the % game and throw a bomb up once you pluck it and then grab another and hold it there forever and just spam projectiles or f-smash (AT's baby!) and know that the falling bomb or the cooked one will save you.
I've messed around with this matchup because, yeah, on paper it looks good for Link, but...they can just knock you off stage and kill you. IC's have moves that aren't just grabs that are good too, and you can get gimped by fresh bair at like 90%.
From that match i noticed a few things that aren't even wolf specific that cost u the game...
Stop landing right in front of their grab range. Their standing grab is rather mediocre. Idk if u just weren't paying attention to his zoning in or what but each time u didn't DJ away or jump shine or anything u just landed right there and gave him the free grab. Almost every time u got grabbed it was cuz of this.
On SV follow the platform with your movement. By having yourself flow with the movement of the platform it gives u an escape in emergencies. I feel this is better in the long run than the momentary relief of pressure simply retreating provides.
Don't attempt a dacus at the beginning of the match @.@(even though u didn't get punished for it...horrible idea)
There are a few MUs where Link does a little better than Wolf. ICs is one imo. My problem is I don't play any characters who do well vs several high tiers. AKA the most common MUs :/ .
This is wrong. If played to the fullest potential, Wolf in theory goes even. Not many Wolf players push that potential though.
@ Rob: That hype friendly reverse 3 stock? Beat me in tournament and a real MM please. Last time we played you were pretty bad at the MU >_> Holms is like the only Wolf that really scares me in the MU, but he's retired. Kain probably too. Your stage analysis is also wrong.
General Advice:
If you are not retreating your Bair, you are doing it wrong
If you projectile enough, it'll most likely hit the lead climber (since you should be using your absurd air speed to get them into chasing you)
If you hit one climber with projectiles enough more than the other, Bair will separate.
When you separate, don't push too hard and end up getting yourself grabbed trying to capitalize. Popo can Solo DThrow Wolf for days and days so even when separated, getting grabbed could still end up meaning a stock.
Be patient. Most ICs are bad and the opportunities will come.
If you have a death wish, by all means CP ICs to BF.
this is wrong. If played to the fullest potential, wolf in theory goes even. Not many wolf players push that potential though.
@ rob: That hype friendly reverse 3 stock? Beat me in tournament and a real mm please. Last time we played you were pretty bad at the mu >_> holms is like the only wolf that really scares me in the mu, but he's retired. Kain probably too. Your stage analysis is also wrong.
General advice:
If you are not retreating your bair, you are doing it wrong
if you projectile enough, it'll most likely hit the lead climber (since you should be using your absurd air speed to get them into chasing you)
if you hit one climber with projectiles enough more than the other, bair will separate.
When you separate, don't push too hard and end up getting yourself grabbed trying to capitalize. Popo can solo dthrow wolf for days and days so even when separated, getting grabbed could still end up meaning a stock.
Be patient. Most ics are bad and the opportunities will come.
If you have a death wish, by all means cp ics to bf.
I stand by what I said a while ago when I said I don't remember playing you >_>
I don't think we've played in tournament, but remind me next time I come by a Socal tournament to play with you.
However, I know by reputation you're pretty good and would probably be wary. Pretty much any one of the top 5 wolf's I'd be worried about, but Holms and Kain the most by a large margin.
As someone who basically co-mained Link and at minimum has a LT champion caliber Link
1st at Jokers and 4th out of 30+ people at a kansas super regional
I do NOT agree with that.
Link does have ONE move that's safer on shield than bair and d-tilt blaster, BOMB. However, air dodge makes getting around links arrows/boomerang a joke. Retreating nair is pretty good, but bair is better unless you have some ledge games I'm not used to, I've seen it with Samus's Zair vs IC's before.
Link can for sure get out of CG's easier than Wolf due to BOMBS. And yeah, you can just do the % game and throw a bomb up once you pluck it and then grab another and hold it there forever and just spam projectiles or f-smash (AT's baby!) and know that the falling bomb or the cooked one will save you.
I've messed around with this matchup because, yeah, on paper it looks good for Link, but...they can just knock you off stage and kill you. IC's have moves that aren't just grabs that are good too, and you can get gimped by fresh bair at like 90%.
Well if you think the MU's even for Wolf then I agree he does have a better ICs MU than Link. I thought it was closer to 6/4 ICs.
Now as someone who's been to 4 tourneys (before our scene died), 2 wifi Ladders, 2 wifi tourneys (one I placed 25 of 90) going all Link and exclusively played Link until about a year ago, I can safely say I know Link and all his MUs by now,including playing good ICs offline and on. And if you think Link has only 1 move that's safe on shields you're not spamming right. Spaced right Bombs, arrows, boomerang and Zair are shield safe. And Link can moving camp with all his projectiles while being covered by a bomb.
I sadly don't have good videos vs ICs; BF was mentioned as ICs best stage, here's Link camping there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jFjvJWqrTI
I'm NOT the best Link out there either. I don't know Wolf as well as most people here but if the MU's 6/4 ICs for Link and Wolf, I still think Link is slightly better.
Any character can gimp Link, which is why several of hi MUs are so bad, but a good Link can survive over 230% and recover too. Link IS bad, don't get me wrong.
Now, as someone who's been hanging around the Link community since mid '09 and played Link, I know damn well that what looks good on paper doesn't work in real life. We were almost constantly plagued by new people saying "Link should be higher", or "I found a new AT or combo" or "this MU's better for Link", and so on. Most older Links stopped caring and flamed them out of AiB.
We had a joke, how to troll a Link main: say Link sucks (duh) or say Link is good.
If you are not retreating your Bair, you are doing it wrong
If you projectile enough, it'll most likely hit the lead climber (since you should be using your absurd air speed to get them into chasing you)
If you hit one climber with projectiles enough more than the other, Bair will separate.
When you separate, don't push too hard and end up getting yourself grabbed trying to capitalize. Popo can Solo DThrow Wolf for days and days so even when separated, getting grabbed could still end up meaning a stock.
Be patient. Most ICs are bad and the opportunities will come.
If you have a death wish, by all means CP ICs to BF.
Agreeing with Lux here, IC have adventage on BF, as a former IC secundary, I prefer sending out BF isntead of FD depending on the matchup, heck climbers are too good when people try to step above them using the plataforms.... so dont!
And dude, platforms? Just shine, it beats SH uair (dodges hitbox + hits ICs). Frame 1 invincibility against a 5-frame jumpsquat + 6-frame aerial is reasonable enough to pull off, although to be fair 11 frames isn't really slow at all, but there's only one thing for me to react to / respond with, and I can still just jump away if I don't feel like paying attention to things...
ICs have frame traps but I think the biggest problem is people don't pay attention to there positioning on the platforms, which lets ICS get those traps on BF. If only people actually thought about that when they are playing -_-
I'd rather BF than FD tho. So if they're counterpicking, I'd strike/ban FD immediately, I wouldn't take them to Lylat, nor would I take them to YI but only because I hate those levels.
I know ICs are good on BF, don't get me wrong, but when we have good traction + stand in the middle of the platform to avoid the nair tumble > IB lock grab setup, and can hit them with shine when they jump up to hit us... idk. I feel like that's a pretty big plus alongside the typical jumping around all day :x
I think you're over estimating how good shine is in the MU >_>
It's good, but if it's baited, it sets up for some really janky stuff, ESPECIALLY if you're in the middle of the platform (which means more time before ledge slip occurs) at certain percents.
Wario's stupid hard to grab and he also has a charging ace up his sleeve, or somewhere, that lets him fart full power every 1:50 as he hops around. Other characters can eat away time by avoiding direct fights but Wario inflates more and more as he does.
I know ICs are good on BF, don't get me wrong, but when we have good traction + stand in the middle of the platform to avoid the nair tumble > IB lock grab setup, and can hit them with shine when they jump up to hit us... idk. I feel like that's a pretty big plus alongside the typical jumping around all day :x
Don't ICs have the best traction in the game? Do you mean platform drop>shine or shine on the platform? ICs can platform poke pretty well with the 6 frames between Popo and Nana's attacks. Can Wolf drop>shine>double jump before falling into grab range? That sounds useful.
Will blaster pass through icebergs? Icebergs have some weird properties. If blaster does transcend and the bayonet stops the ice Wolf would get a nice free hit in every time ICs iceberged on the ground.
Why is the MU even? It seems to me like Wolf's air game is great but ICs would be hard to KO and one dash PS>grab from ICs destroys Wolf's % lead. I'm wondering how to fight them so it's even?
TBH I often use my other characters vs ICs because they own my Wolf so I'm doing something wrong with him. Link platform camps, G&W Bair trolls>juggle and Zelda abuses bad lag with Fsmash and Din's. So I thought the MU was bad for Wolf but it looks like I just need to learn it.
I think you're over estimating how good shine is in the MU >_>
It's good, but if it's baited, it sets up for some really janky stuff, ESPECIALLY if you're in the middle of the platform (which means more time before ledge slip occurs) at certain percents.
I don't believe it to be quite as good as I was probably making it out to sound lol, I do agree with your points but I still don't understand why ICs would prefer this stage over Wolf in this MU since it gives us some nice mobility advantages. For a frame of reference, what stages would you say are better/worse for ICs in this MU than BF?
Don't ICs have the best traction in the game? Do you mean platform drop>shine or shine on the platform? ICs can platform poke pretty well with the 6 frames between Popo and Nana's attacks. Can Wolf drop>shine>double jump before falling into grab range? That sounds useful.
Will blaster pass through icebergs? Icebergs have some weird properties. If blaster does transcend and the bayonet stops the ice Wolf would get a nice free hit in every time ICs iceberged on the ground.
Why is the MU even? It seems to me like Wolf's air game is great but ICs would be hard to KO and one dash PS>grab from ICs destroys Wolf's % lead. I'm wondering how to fight them so it's even?
TBH I often use my other characters vs ICs because they own my Wolf so I'm doing something wrong with him. Link platform camps, G&W Bair trolls>juggle and Zelda abuses bad lag with Fsmash and Din's. So I thought the MU was bad for Wolf but it looks like I just need to learn it.
Nah, ICs have bad traction lol. So does Luigi, you can tell by how far they slide when their shield is hit. Someone gathered data for it somewhere, idk where though :x
Just standing on the platform and timing a shine will dodge the uair and hit the ICs. There isn't enough time for a drop > shine > dj
Blaster only hits one ice block, so it's kinda bad against it since the second one will hit Wolf during cooldown, unless you hit one with the hilt, but yeah. It never goes well for me, at least :x
To fight them so it's even? Hop around all the time outside of their grab range imo, poking away until separation like Lux said. Yeah, dash > PS > grab ruins Wolf, much like it ruins almost every character lol. They're really not hard to KO, it's mostly based around getting them separated or offstage though imo.
We friendlied and you didn't want to go ICs so you went wario instead
anyways
I think CPing ICs to something that isn't a neutral is a good choice like I mean Lylat isn't that bad if you know how to recover and junk so is SV Wolf can take ICs to time just gotta get the lead and when you kill nana do nothing but grab popo till time :3
That doesn't work unless it's last stock...most IC wise up and realize what you're doing and can kill themselves to give them their frame trap/cg options back.
Also, I think obviously when Lux quits being scared and plans an event on a day I didn't plan mine 3 weeks prior to his, we'll see how that 3-way goes.
![[FBC] Papa Mink](/data/avatars/l/166/166410.jpg?1363023093){kind=avatar}
