Wobbling Compromise

[adumbrodeus]

Didn't magus prove that planking is completely beatable in melee (with FALCON no less)?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yeah he did.

Either way it's not nearly as hard to deal with as Jigglypuff's planking, because Jiggs has the same options, but the reward for stealing the ledge is practically nothing. She's also safer attacking you, and safer near the ledge in general.

Then why bother grabbing the ledge at all?

Jigglypuff is not invincible when she goes to grab it.

I haven't tried any of these, but they seem like solid ideas to me.

Spoiler

"impossible to grab the edge because of ledgehop invincible f-air"

If your character has a difficult time doing it or you don't want to risk it, do you really even need to grab the edge if you have a decent ranged low hitting attack? It always seemed to me like Jiggs poofs up above edge height a bit from her DJ unless you interrupt it and grab the edge using sing everytime. I don't have experience against it myself and this could be a dumb question, but have you tried staying out of range of ledgehop invincible f-air anytime immediately following an edge grab, moving in a bit when they drop back from the edge, and then if they dropped low enough maybe look to d-tilt or something them out of the jump?

Kinda like that I guess. Stay out of range, then once you see them drop far enough below/away from the edge go in and maybe attack like those gifs, or sometimes just go in and put up your shield to see if they jump early and do something expecting you to attack their regrab that you can punish and if not then just roll back to safety.



"ledgehop on/off stage f-air camping only"


Ok then.

Jiggs is vulnerable for at least 12 frames before the f-air animation can end and is able to grab the edge. About 9-10 of those frames are while she's still above stage height. If you're using an attack that can hit below the stage a little then you may be able to hit for all 12.

In this example with CF you'd jump right when Jiggs grabs on. You have time to react to them committing to going far on stage with the f-air and then you come down with a b-air, and if you see they didn't then you DJ back to safety.

[/quote]

 

[EPsilon933]

this is why we have an edge grab limit

It sounds like a dumb idea, to be brutally honest. It seems a bit unenforceable. You have to wait until the end of the game to find out and see if the limit was hit, and if both players accidentally hit start out of impatience of they forgot to check, you would never know.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But BRAWL does it.



*waits for the boos*

 

[EPsilon933]

But BRAWL does it.



*waits for the boos*

barlw is a fun game. But I can only play it in heavy gravity and reflect status because then the camping game is nerfed and there's a little bit more reward for playing a little bit more aggressive.

 

[BBQTV]

It sounds like a dumb idea, to be brutally honest. It seems a bit unenforceable. You have to wait until the end of the game to find out and see if the limit was hit, and if both players accidentally hit start out of impatience of they forgot to check, you would never know.

i've never been to a tournament that has this and i think MLG started this. i think you need to have 2 people to count for the 2 players

 

[EPsilon933]

i've never been to a tournament that has this and i think MLG started this. i think you need to have 2 people to count for the 2 players

As in like two judges counting during the whole game?

 

[BBQTV]

As in like two judges counting during the whole game?

yes, thats i how i imagine it's done

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just require players to keep track.

 

[Ballistics]

That video is stalling, hardcore, and in melee, we have unwritten stalling rules. I think we just need to take off the time limit. What is the time limit for anyway? So that people can get away with bs like this?

 

[Pengie]

Honestly without the time limit he could have done the same thing until the other person just decided to quit. With the time limit it prevents any match from running over 7-8 minutes. If you take away the time limit you aren't preventing things like that from happening, you're just letting it happen for a longer time.

 

[Ballistics]

but if there were no time limit there would be no timing out which is what happened, they would have been forced to fight it out, I think the jigglypuff stayed on the ledge because he knew he had the advantage and all he had to do was wait

 

[Pengie]

Yeah but by taking out the time there is nothing preventing Jiggs from saying on the edge anyway, and in that situation where the Jiggs had a clear lead, why would she ever bother approaching and getting involved in a fight with Fox when Fox is the one that has to now work if he wants to win. Basically, Removing the time limit would not do anything except make the same match last potentially much, much longer.

 

[EPsilon933]

Let's just make the time limit 6 minutes, because the 8 minutes almost never gets hit anyways. Ir maybe cut it down to 5 because even games longer than 5 minutes are rare. Unless, that's too extreme of a change. Yeah, stalling camping can be gay, but what if when winning by timeout can become a new viable strategy? If I'm wrong and it's mad gay(er than I though it would be), well, at least it's only 5 minutes of mad gay.[/RANDOMIDEAS]

 

[Ballistics]

Pengie I dont think the jiggs would stay on the ledge if the fox never came to her, she would have to approach sometime if there were no time limit. The only reason the fox had to approach, was because there was a time limit and if he didn't the jiggs would win by having more stocks.

If there was no time limit and the fox did not go to the ledge (like a good player) than the jiggs would have to come off.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Jiggs would never have to come off of it. That's just you assuming that the Jiggs player will run out of patience before the Fox player.

There's also the TIME issue since....tournaments have limited time at the venue.

 

[Pengie]

^ Pretty much what I was getting at. Also, for Jiggs to Plank she needs to get a decent sized percent lead on most char before she can plank. If you keep your distance, avoid her grab (and for god's sake DI the up throw if you do get grabbed.), and keep the pressure to approach on her, then planking mostly urns into a minimal issue.

That is until we get perfect Foxes that shoot one laser and grab the edge and firestall but I'm pretty sure EVERYONE has agreed that that's the most ******** thing to discuss.

 

[Ballistics]

if both players dont approach eachother for a minute they should be disqualified, wat a bunch of pvssies

 

[Dark Sonic]

That would be ridiculously hard to enforce, and also unjustified as a large part of certain matchups is forcing the other player to approach.

If Jigg's planking is really broken (and maybe people should study the **** game before deciding that. Magus found answers with CAPTAIN FALCON!), then only Jigg's planking needs to be addressed. No need to make arbitrary rules that extend far and beyond the actual problem.

 

[BigD!!!]

one time at fc3 or 6, overswarm counterpicked jv3x3 to green greens and realized they forgot to turn the time limit on

overswarm said "hey man, we should turn the timer on", jv said "nah dont worry about it"

overswarm went down a stock, and camped jv out

jv eventually approached into situations where he was at a disadvantage, and lost, because overswarm had more patience than jv

overswarm one the match, it took 25 minutes, but the timer wasnt on

at least thats the way overswarm tells the story

timer makes you at least have to be winning to camp, and thats the best we can do

epsilon, samus vs peach matches and other similar samus/peach matchups regularly take more than 5 minutes, even when both players are trying pretty hard to fight. watch a hugs vs peach video, or a plank vs peach video (not sure if there are vids of this but ive seen him vs cort and him vs vidjo at tournaments), those dont really even look too campy but they still frequently take almost 8 minutes due to players being extremely safe

 

[EPsilon933]

if both players dont approach eachother for a minute they should be disqualified, wat a bunch of pvssies

I don't think loose rules like this should be part of the ruleset. A timer is a good thing because if there's a timer out, the player with the most stocks wins. Or if stocks are equal, the player with the lowest percent wins. If both players are trying to out camp each other, the one who would lose if time ran out would have to approach and rack up damage/kills before it runs out. Otherwise, that player at the disadvantage would lose during the stall out.

Oh, wait, I got side tracked. I don't like the idea of these kinds of loose rules because they can be unenforceable and you can not make them part of the in game rules. And having the need to have a judge decide when a stallfest has reached a minute would be too open to interpretation. Would the stallfest start when a player first grabs a ledge? Would it happen when a player hits and then runs to the ledge? I

Spoiler

'm sleepy and I have this inability to realize when people make jokes.

 

[Pengie]

if both players dont approach eachother for a minute they should be disqualified, wat a bunch of pvssies

What does "approaching" mean? What if they don't approach for 59 seconds, hit the opponent once, then run away and don't approach for another 59 seconds? Why one minute why not two minute or one and half, or one minute 47 seconds and three frames? Why don't people man up and admit that camping is only broken when you don't know how to deal with it? Why don't people admit that camping is a legitimate strategy?

 

[EPsilon933]

Why don't people man up and admit that camping is only broken when you don't know how to deal with it? Why don't people admit that camping is a legitimate strategy?

Melee scrubs that think hating on barlw is cool.

 

[Pengie]

Honestly, I hate the Brawl community far more than the actual game (I hate the game quite a bit mind you.) but seeing the Melee community act like the Brawl community in regards to this is just sad.

 

[EPsilon933]

Honestly, I hate the Brawl community far more than the actual game (I hate the game quite a bit mind you.) but seeing the Melee community act like the Brawl community in regards to this is just sad.

I personally like barlw, the game. But only when played a certain way. Just take the tournament rules for that game and add heavy gravity, reflect status, and ban MetaKnight. It takes a away a lot of the camping game and rewards aggression more. And MetaKnight is unstoppable with these rules, so he's banned because he's God. I would honestly play barlw at tournaments like this, but social inertia.

epsilon, samus vs peach matches and other similar samus/peach matchups regularly take more than 5 minutes, even when both players are trying pretty hard to fight. watch a hugs vs peach video, or a plank vs peach video (not sure if there are vids of this but ive seen him vs cort and him vs vidjo at tournaments), those dont really even look too campy but they still frequently take almost 8 minutes due to players being extremely safe

I never knew about the Samus/Peach matchup. So maybe you're right. Cutting it down to 5 minutes instead of 6 is a bit much. But does this happen in other matchups as well (preferably regarding like the top 11 since they're usually the most common characters)? I heard Mewtwo vs Samus is a nightmare of a campfest, but that has less weight. Also, Ness vs Zelda with a 5 minute timer would be a very good thing. No one here has any idea how much of a stallfest that matchup is when both players want to win.

You don't think m2k studies the game? haha

he's far and away the most vocal person about jiggs' planking being broken

Character johns. Mew2King is retiring Melee anyways. He's says he likely won't, aka will won't, enter Melee at Apex.

 

[Winston]

That would be ridiculously hard to enforce, and also unjustified as a large part of certain matchups is forcing the other player to approach.

If Jigg's planking is really broken (and maybe people should study the **** game before deciding that. Magus found answers with CAPTAIN FALCON!), then only Jigg's planking needs to be addressed. No need to make arbitrary rules that extend far and beyond the actual problem.

You don't think m2k studies the game? haha

he's far and away the most vocal person about jiggs' planking being broken

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^When Magus comes in and says "no it's not" backed with Gif's showing how Captain Falcon of all characters (who doesn't hit that low below the stage) can cover it with relatively little trouble, I have a hard time believing that it's broken.

Yeah <_<

 

[Magus420]

I didn't claim it is or is not broken actually.

 

[Pengie]

You don't think m2k studies the game? haha

he's far and away the most vocal person about jiggs being broken

fixed

Spoiler

seriously

 

[KrazyKnux]

imo

10imos

 

[Ballistics]

If anyone tried to time me out in melee i would puke on them from sheer disgustedness

 

[ShootingStars]

Wobbling is like a combo, you get stuck in it, no way out, your fault.
In SSF4 you can grab with Ryu and launch his Ultra and 100% success EVERY TIME... and they don't ban that crap.

 

[EPsilon933]

fixed

Spoiler

seriously

All I can notice with my fatigue right now is the removed apostrophe.

 

[EPsilon933]

If anyone tried to time me out in melee i would puke on them from sheer disgustedness

Wait, humans are capable of regurgitating boredum?

I'm too tired to not double post.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I ran the timer out in a friendly last week. I'm so cool.

 

[Pengie]

Chu wobbled me in a friendly so he could get the JV >_>.

 

[VGmasta]

Watch this match and tell me who's the better player despite the turnout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbLZq7AUII

The end of that match was gay as ****, lol. Wobbling looks so cheap.

Also UberIce is very good. Hats down to Uberice for not using wobbling in tournament.

 

[EPsilon933]

The end of that match was gay as ****, lol. Wobbling looks so cheap.

Also UberIce is very good. Hats down to Uberice for not using wobbling in tournament.

He could have placed 1 higher.

 

[Strong Badam]

The True Wobbling Compromise

The Wobbler must make an honest attempt to initiate and keep going a conversation with the victim. Conversation can be about area of player origin, time player has spent in the competitive Melee scene, what his or her favorite alcoholic drink is, or any other not lame subjects. The player's failure to do this will be determined at the Tournament Organizer's discretion, and the punishment of which will also be granted at the Tournament Organizer's discretion, ranging from a warning to a game loss to complete disqualification from the tournament.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

The True Wobbling Compromise

The Wobbler must make an honest attempt to initiate and keep going a conversation with the victim. Conversation can be about area of player origin, time player has spent in the competitive Melee scene, what his or her favorite alcoholic drink is, or any other not lame subjects. The player's failure to do this will be determined at the Tournament Organizer's discretion, and the punishment of which will also be granted at the Tournament Organizer's discretion, ranging from a warning to a game loss to complete disqualification from the tournament.

i like this this is good