Wobbles Infinite...

[Captain_Obvious]

So to execute this technique you need Popo to grab the opponent and have Nana reach him and start tilting the opponent before he breaks out. I think that though this tech is dominating, it can be avoided easily enough if you just keep Popo and Nana far enough apart. It just makes splitting up the ICs and/or killing Nana a much higher priority. If you can keep them apart and are grabbed by Popo, you should be able to break out before Nana gets there. If not, then you probably have enough damage to be ready to die anyway.

I say leave it. It's like getting waveshined into a shinespike - yes, it sucks, but there are ways to avoid it.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

 

[ChozenOne]

I say leave it. It's like getting waveshined into a shinespike - yes, it sucks, but there are ways to avoid it.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

Play a pro and then come talk to me after you're not grabbed in a four stock period.

 

[Ignatius]

You'll get grabbed, but the goal is to minimize them, or have it at a time where nana is either not close enough to be able to do it, or when nana is dead. If you really dont like it, counter the ICs on a moving level as well like cruise or floats, limit their time and chances to Wobble you more.

If you're really against this topic, then ban fox drillshines against the characters he can infinite with those too, you can't ban one inescapable infinite and not another. Both have conditions they need for them to work.

 

[1048576]

You'll get grabbed, but the goal is to minimize them, or have it at a time where nana is either not close enough to be able to do it, or when nana is dead. If you really dont like it, counter the ICs on a moving level as well like cruise or floats, limit their time and chances to Wobble you more.

If you're really against this topic, then ban fox drillshines against the characters he can infinite with those too, you can't ban one inescapable infinite and not another. Both have conditions they need for them to work.

The thing is, Wobbling is easy and yields great results, therefore being "cheap." Fox's infinites are extremely difficult to pull off when you factor in the opponent's DI, but yield the same results. However, because the difficulty matches the outcome, it is not "cheap." It's cool though. If you don't like it, Chozen One, learn Samus or IC's. (Like I did)

 

[Ignatius]

The thing is, Wobbling is easy and yields great results, therefore being "cheap." Fox's infinites are extremely difficult to pull off when you factor in the opponent's DI, but yield the same results. However, because the difficulty matches the outcome, it is not "cheap." It's cool though. If you don't like it, Chozen One, learn Samus or IC's. (Like I did)

Difficulty doesn't matter, an infinite is an infinite.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Iggy for god tier.

Toe jam and earl comes out on wii on christmas.

Chozen one sucks at smash.

 

[Ignatius]

Oh, I did want to point out, that so far, no IC have won using this infinite. Wobbles got 9th, and Chu got his lowest placing at MLG thusfar trying to use it. Now for CHu that may just be an offday in general, but that's his lowest placing out of both seasons of MLG so far.

The one thing that everyone does agree is that the Wobbles has potential to stall too well, and we are looking for a way to prevent that. I personally say just force a kill at 300%, which takes about 30 seconds, I think a bit less.

And yes, I'm jumping on Toejam and Earl as fast as I can.

 

[The 5th Police]

I really would call this a gay tactic because this can only be done when they are together. It is annoying yes but its not like you can just tell him to not use it right? That is like me telling someone not to spam Falco's lasers. He has it so he will use it. However, that doesn't mean he will win either.

 

[The 5th Police]

sorry for double posting but I meant to say " I really wouldn't call this a gay tactic."

 

[StripesOrBars]

This shouldn't be banned.

It's no gayer than Falco's infinite lasers or Fox's drillshine infinite, or Shiek's infinite chain grab(which makes every character in the game suck besides the top 7).

 

[Ignatius]

Correct Doodah, I would like to see a limitation on the % you can take the person you're fighting to, though. As long as the IC get a kill from it, it's fine; I just don't want to see an IC land one grab and wobbles for 8 min.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Correct Doodah, I would like to see a limitation on the % you can take the person you're fighting to, though. As long as the IC get a kill from it, it's fine; I just don't want to see an IC land one grab and wobbles for 8 min.

most tournaments ban anything that is used to stall the match indefinately, not only things like rising pound/wall bomb, so i think this would fall under that catigory if someone tried to wobble for 8 min.

 

[Negative Zero]

Well, wallbombing and rising pound is allowed, unless it becomes apparent that it's done to stall the match. I say the same for Wobbling. If you use it and then smash out of it for the kill, that's fine. But if you're up past 400%, it's quite obvious that you're just stalling the match and could have gotten a kill some time ago.

 

[BrTarolg]

This shouldn't be banned.

It's no gayer than Falco's infinite lasers or Fox's drillshine infinite, or Shiek's infinite chain grab(which makes every character in the game suck besides the top 7).

<ahem>

1. falcos lasers arnt an "infinite"

2. fox's drillshine combo can be DI'ed out of VERY EASILY by ANY character. if you shine someone, and have them ASDI AWAY from you, whilst holding away from fox, then he will move well out of wave-drillshining range. there are several videos on youtube demonstrating this, and how thus it is actually very easy to escape using a combination of away+up DI and ASDI, or crouch ASDI so he waveshines past you.

3. shiek cannot chainthrow in pal. i am a shiek player, i play PAL. in fact, shiek can barely combo most of the floaties in pal with dthrow because they can DI so far away.

 

[StripesOrBars]

1)Falco's lasers are infinite. They never run out.

2)Fox's drillshine is still an infinite.

3)We dont care about PAL. Europe isn't as good as the states, canada and Japan because of the pathetic version that is PAL. HAL gave u guys the easy way out.

I'm comparing the gayness of the IC's grab infinite to other gay tactics in this game.

The community has overcome many gaynesses, they'll have no problem with this(as long as its not a stall).

 

[BrTarolg]

if we assume an infinite to be something that you can escape out of, none of those are infinites except for ice climbers grabs.

this is because when popo hits, theres a stuntime where you *cannot* get out of the grab, and same for nan's dtilt.

mix it up right, and then there are zero frames per second total where you can escape.

fox's one on the other hand, you have plenty of smash DI, asdi to use to escape with. shieks is tougher cause you only have regular DI

falco's laser cannot "infinite" someone.

though its IS infinite ammo.
then again, all projectiles are like this.

 

[StripesOrBars]

I never said falco's lasers were an "infinite" they're just infinite.

And Fox's drillshine can and is an infinite. Peach and Ganon especially are infinite material.

Dont even let me get started with Poke Stadium, Peach's Castle, and Onett.

 

[mcc]

wobbling is a TRUE infinite xD, the other ones are escapable.

i thought dair->dthrow->reverse grab was unescapable

 

[DynamicDuo]

hmmm, i never thought of using ic's infinte to stall and then just kill at the last second. I'm gonna use that from now on unless mlg bans it, and yea just cuz they can do it doesn't mean they're going to win, i myself am trying to perfect my IC's.

P.S. is fox drillshine only done when there is a wall?

 

[AzN_Lep]

Dynamic Duo, MLG did ban the infinite if used for stalling purposes. At MLG Anaheim this year I asked M3D (or JV can't remember) whether or not the IC infinite was banned. Their response was "It's not banned as long as you don't use it to stall a match"

I'm gonna assume by drill shine you meant Fox's infinite. It's easiest when done against a wall since all you have to do is jump -> d-air -> L cancel -> shine -> repeat. However you can do it without a wall, although it's quite a bit harder. SHFFLC d-air -> shine -> perfect wd -> repeat. It only works on certain characters like Link, Sheik, Peach, etc. Problem is this can be smashed DI'd.

 

[DynamicDuo]

Ah ok thanx.

 

[BrTarolg]

against walls, its different cause you can only smash/normal DI upwards <which still leads to an escape> when being drillshined by fox.

if you are link, peach or ganon on FD, simply holding "away" on the stick will send you much too far for him to drill you.

 

[Ignatius]

against walls, its different cause you can only smash/normal DI upwards <which still leads to an escape> when being drillshined by fox.

if you are link, peach or ganon on FD, simply holding "away" on the stick will send you much too far for him to drill you.

He can still wavedash and easily catch you in another shine.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Peach is too easy to drill shine.

 

[DynamicDuo]

I find it easier to shine CF.

 

[ChozenOne]

hmm.. after watching more Wobbles as Taj videos i'm now convinced even more so that Wobbles [Infinite] is gay.

 

[N1c2k3]

I think we get your point. It's gay, but there are far gayer things. But the question remains: Will you have what it takes to do what needs to be done, when the time comes?

 

[BrTarolg]

its escapable. if fuzzy ever releases matches of his jigglypuff vs phrozenwaves IC, you can see him getting grabbed several times at low percents, with nana in position, and listening to him go completely spak and mash so many buttons he almost breaks his controller, and getting out before popo even does the first headbutt.

 

[ChozenOne]

N1c2k3.. what does that mean...

BrTarolg.. but once the combo is initiated you cannot escape it... and the average human being cannot mash their controller to the point of almost breaking it... and even if you can escape it's only at lower %'s..

? for Wobbles.. do you think Taj is better than you? B/c if you say yes then every game you beat him with the "Wobbles Infinite" makes perfect sence, and should be considered a legitimate win.. however if the answer is no then clearly the "Wobbles Infinite" is perhaps the cheesyist "so called gay thing" in the game. Jigglypuff's rest is cheesy , but you can recover if your below 60%.. the infinite... not so much.

 

[Wobbles]

Of course Taj is better than me. No doubt about it.

Look at it this way; each infinite, done right, takes a stock off. That's only a quarter of your total life. In most 2D fighting games, ordinary throws do about that much (or lead into even BIGGER combos), and they're even easier to land than an infinite. Plus they don't require continued effort, and once they're started you can't mess up. Oh, and depending when I land the infinite, it's not even technically a quarter of your total life, because you might be halfway through your stock by that point. Then it's more like an eighth.

Eh, whatever... yeah, Taj is better than me.

Oh yeah, and if you loved the infinite before....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlX6Z9AXJmI

 

[LuCKy]

wobbles...........amazing match lol makes me realize i need 2 get better with my climbers

 

[1048576]

Of course Taj is better than me. No doubt about it.

Look at it this way; each infinite, done right, takes a stock off. That's only a quarter of your total life. In most 2D fighting games, ordinary throws do about that much (or lead into even BIGGER combos), and they're even easier to land than an infinite. Plus they don't require continued effort, and once they're started you can't mess up. Oh, and depending when I land the infinite, it's not even technically a quarter of your total life, because you might be halfway through your stock by that point. Then it's more like an eighth.

Eh, whatever... yeah, Taj is better than me.

Oh yeah, and if you loved the infinite before....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlX6Z9AXJmI

I hate when you make that comparison. You can't compare the infinite to other 2d fighting games. For starters, smash doesn't have "life." It has a damage meter that sends you farther and farther away depending on a variety of factors. You are never halfway through your stock. At no point do you reach enough damage where you have to lose your stock. Also, every move in Smash, according to your logic, can only take away 1/4 of your life, max. There is no way to enter your opponent's second stock while they are still on their first. Comparing Smash to other 2d fighting games is like comparing apples and oranges. The fighting system is different, and thus, infinites should be treated differently.

Who was that poor Falcon?

And have you ever lost to a non-Samus player after mastering the infinite?

 

[technomancer]

I hate when you make that comparison. You can't compare the infinite to other 2d fighting games. For starters, smash doesn't have "life." It has a damage meter that sends you farther and farther away depending on a variety of factors. You are never halfway through your stock. At no point do you reach enough damage where you have to lose your stock. Also, every move in Smash, according to your logic, can only take away 1/4 of your life, max. There is no way to enter your opponent's second stock while they are still on their first. Comparing Smash to other 2d fighting games is like comparing apples and oranges. The fighting system is different, and thus, infinites should be treated differently.

Bogus, Smash borrowed a ton of stuff from other fighters, SSBM even more so, and the only difference are the controls, the forward/away facing attacks, and the more spacious enviroments, thus the gameplay mechanics that change to reflect them. The four-stock system can be compared to a Best-of-Seven match which is the standard in ST tournaments, except the percents don't reset in between.

Wobbles is correct. A full combo, Shinespike, or Infinite, even under the worst circumstances, only takes away 1/4 of your lives, max. Though I agree that an infinite landed at 70% damage takes more than 1/8 of your life, Infinite != match loss. The invulnerability from spawn gives you a chance to reset yourself and agress, the same as after a round in any other fighter, in fact actually better.

If you want to make an arguement, there's less gay stuff in smash than most fighting games, so by comparison, the infinite is pretty gay, but ... I don't see IC's owning the MLGs every time, or even the local tournaments, so GG that arguement.

And have you ever lost to a non-Samus player after mastering the infinite?

I'mma have to say lol.

 

[Bronze]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that he has lost a match since being able to do the infinite

But I'm confused by all the references to other games. So what? Thats their problem if their filled with abusable infinites in which good play consists of landing an infinite first. We're trying to deal with Smash

It might be annoying, cheap, disproportionately rewarding etc etc. But for the moment its legal. The obvious ways of 'beating' it are:

Avoid grabs:
1. Space well
2. Jab/shine/etc
3. Don't shield as much

4. Abuse nana's AI, kill her early, keep them separated etc
5. Mash all the buttons very quickly as soon as your grabbed and if they aren't set up perfectly ready for it you can get out.

Alternatively - Hope the IC player messes up, hope the SBR ban it.

Is there anything I missed?

 

[ChozenOne]

Nothing against you Wobbles. You pioneered this "combo" so props to you. You also seem like a pretty chill guy.

Glad that people agree with me. Unhappy that Chudat uses this against the ChozenOne.

 

[BrTarolg]

chozen i say "get out" - i mean that at the lower percentages you should be able to get out before nana gets into position before she does her dtilt.

if you are grabbed at a higher percentage, then you should be dead anyway.

 

[Wobbles]

Of course I lose; I lose to people better than me. Sometimes I lose to people who are equal to me in skill, and occasionally worse players. I think the same can be said about EVERY PLAYER ever, and using the infinite has not changed this fact at all.

And the reason we compare Smash to other tournament fighting games is because they are the only things we CAN compare it to; we need to in order to understand what we're dealing with.

An infinite does not immediately win you the match; it takes a stock. There are numerous ways to keep me landing an infinite. Players better than me continue to beat me. I do not win tournaments automatically. I also don't use it to stall, and I still have the opportunity to mess up (which I do on occasion, when I'm nervous). Just because no other tactic exists that is as powerful as this doesn't mean it should be banned; we already accept that some characters, and some things that those characters do, are more effective than others. This one may be very much ahead of the game, but it's also one of the most situational; furthermore, your game against the IC's ALREADY revolves around the preventative measures against the infinite. Being unable to handle those means you're going to lose anyhow.

I think the term you guys should be looking for, instead of "cheap" or "gay," is "effective." VERY effective, yes, but not broken.

 

[DynamicDuo]

yea wobbles is cool .

 

[1048576]

Yes, Wobbles is cool.

No, the word I'm looking for is definitely cheap. If you've read any of my posts in other threads you know why. If you need me to repeat myself I will, but we've been over this a thousand times. I don't see the infinite as situational. The whole point of the IC's game before the infinite was to land a grab with Nana present. The opponent tries to avoid this. That was all well and good when the average player needed at least two grabs per stock (except against Sheik). Now the scale is tipped. The IC's opponent needs to be playing as well as the IC player for the whole match, minus three points. The IC's can make many more mistakes than that. It doesn't seem right when I go in for a wild smash, leaving Nana behind and missing my smash attack, and I eat 50 damage from a random combo, yet my opponent puts up his/her shield and loses a stock. I now three stock people that I got two stocked by a month ago because of this infinite. It cuts the number of grabs required to take the stock drastically. The move comes out in seven frames (the grab), out prioritizes every attack, and takes a stock after 20% if both players are in an alert state. The requirements for performing the move are to look at another game while going dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. That's cheap.

 

[chu12ch]

If it wasn't for nana's love of getting hit, i would say that wobbling is too broken and should be banned... But since nana has to be relatively close im okay with it...