Wingdashing (11 Videos)

[kupo15]

4) This tech punishes stepdodging, lets take characters like link or rob who both have good step dodges (link does dodge to up tilt or jab and rob does step dodge down smash). If you wingdash d-smash then you can push your opponent away, if he is dodging during the push, then your d-smash is perfectly timed to hit them anyways so no worries.

That is awesome because I always get screwed over with spotdodging. I spotdodge and attack thinking it will connect but no, he dodges it. How? I don't know and he is IKE!
Do you need to properly execute Wingdashing to do this? What I mean is, there are many forms of perfection with this tech. You can either go very far or not very far and everything in between unlike wavedashing which only has two. It seems as if a perfectly executed Wingdash will space you to far out of reach.

How are you coming along with it? I love this tech but at the same time I am a little frustrated because it is soo hard to do consistently right now. because I use mote/chuck, I can up B too quickly, but thumbnailing down on the d pad helps with the timing. The most annoying this is when I do a jump and a reverse angle ring because I don't allow enough time for the up b before moving back. It is much harder than wavedashing but I'll get it.

Another problem I have is knowing when to use it. I knew how to wavedash in Melee but it wasn't something I did often so I don't know how to use it effectively. i'm going to ask my friend who was really good in Melee, but he was Falcon and I never saw him wavedash much since Falcon can basically jump across the entire FD. So, i hope he can help me. But any suggestions would be helpful.

3) If your opponent tries to drop a bomb or grenade next to the ledge, you can push it back. Also relating to the edge, its faster to do a ledge wingdash to get back up onto the stage rather than anything else.

So you do this? I remember Underdog saying it was a no no. I am wondering why?
Your right in saying that this is really becoming like wavedashing. You can move on the ground like it (running or standing still) you can to ledgehop wavedash and I think wave land but I haven't tested.

 

[sagemoon]

@4 there are other things you can do, like spotdodge yourself and punish, but the wingdash works as an approach.

Also this tech isnt applied in the same ways as melee, like in melee i wouldnt use a wave dash forward to be all up in their face as an approach. However in this I can because it will cancel a projectile, prevents a grab, and will punish spot dodge all at the same time. You just have to watch for the f-smash or something (which you can always wingdash back and forward tilt)

@3 If undrdog told you not to do this. Than he is wrong. Snake players tell me it really messes w/ their ledge guarding and combos. Also i dont think it moves quite as far as in melee but its definately becoming a huge part of my game. I'll try to get some vids up of how i'm applying it. I did a 0-death on my brother i think because i hit him with a d-smash, then wingdashed (he tried to grab me as link but the wingdash prevented the grab) and then i went on from there using different stuff and ending w/ wing refresh lol. It was pretty cool.


A drawback i found with this is it seems that i'm tripping a lot more often because of it. But i never have tripped in a place where i get punished so idk. Tripping is weird.

 

[lmnz]

omg pit is so technical.

 

[kupo15]

Yea, and people think that anyone can pick him up and be amazing but it takes skill to be a good Pit.

 

[Undrdog]

Against a couple characters it's a good strategy. However against any of the faster characters it really is a major no-no. Snake is one of the exceptions as is Lucario.

 

[kupo15]

Oh, ok. Can you explain why it doesn't work with anyone else and why it does with those two? Thanks!

 

[Undrdog]

I'm starting to think I'm misunderstanding what you all are describing. Wingdashing from the edge seems highly punishable. I can't imagine being able to do this against anyone with any metagame and not getting sent right back off the stage immediately.

 

[kupo15]

I see what you mean but wouldn't the wind effect from WoI push them away? Maybe this depends on the opponents spacing with the ledge. Maybe you should only do this if you are 100 percent sure that their distance from the ledge plus the distance you push them is enough to put them out of reach.

An example of when NOT to do it:
-Marth/Ike is charging a F smash right on the ledge.

An example of when you could do it:
-Marth/Ike is off of the edge a little bit.
-Any character is expecting you to roll from the ledge.

Thoughts?

 

[WhatIsPie?]

I'm having trouble pulling it off. Is the control stick supposed to be jammed into the upper left corner or just held slightly in that direction? When I try doing it, Pit ends up turning around in the opposite direction.

 

[Undrdog]

A simple short hop prevents you from being pushed back. Any character that has an aerial that hurts is risky. Unfortunately this goes for most characters.

 

[Corigames]

Way to go cutting out the part of my post that answers this question,

Ok, I don't give a ****.

...as yes, done correctly you refresh your up B.

Also, so what if you get hit while doing the Up+B and get sent off the stage, you still have all but one of your jumps and a glide, a smart player would be fine. Your not going to want to retreat at the edge using this. the Wingdash is utilized best to retreat towards the center of the stage, away from your opponent. You might as well take off and fly (using jumps) over your opponent if your at the edge, or better yet, shield grab them and toss 'em off the edge themselves.

Except, if you didn't know, any character that gets hit out of their Up B loses all other jumps. this happened to me a lot at the beginning of this game when I would use Samus' Up B out of shield and get hit, resulting in me getting knocked away with no mid air jump. Graned with her, it is easy to get back. There's a tether, bomb jumps, and the Up B comes back. If you leave the ground (with out refreshing) with Pit's up B and get knocked out of it, you shouldn't have ANY recovery due to the mechanic of his moves.

I'm not saying this thing is bad, I just don't want to be hit while doing it, where as with a regular wavedash (in comparison only) didn't have such a problem.

 

[kupo15]

Ok. But if they are charging up while you are on the ledge(as Ike's tend to do), it seems fine. Also, it could be a fake out. They think you are going to jump from the ledge so they jump to but you stay on the ground. Also, don't you have enough mobility to dodge there attack?

I see your point but I'll have to play around with it

Whatispie: You need to cancel it with a Dair. The Original Post has a method I feel is the easiest.


Wingdashing
2. This is similar to ''wavedashing'. Do exactly like variation 1 expect add the Dair to cancel the Icarus Wings. The result should be a backwards movement with roughly the same distance and time as a wavedash.

An easy way to perform this backward is to rotate your joystick counter clockwise starting at 12 o clock to 3 o'clock:
-12:00 (WoI)
-6:00(Dair)
-3:00(forward dash if applicable)

Vise versa, an easy way to perform this forward is to rotate your joystick clockwise starting at 12 o clock to 6 o'clock:
-12:00 (WoI)
-6:00(Dair)
-3:00(forward dash if applicable)
Forward is a little more tricky

Doing it this way ensures you get the most consistent and maximum backwards launch (12:00-6:00) without Bair canceling. (Bair canceling has the most lag)

 

[kupo15]

Coreygames: I see your concern but I guess my only answer for you is to wait until people post videos using this. I know Sagemoon will soon. Maybe your timing is off but you really have nothing to worry about. If you do it Perfectly then the moment you Up B you perform wing refresh which gives you back all of your jumps and up B.

I don't know what else to say. Sorry. :/

 

[Undrdog]

Wing Renewal gives back all of your recovery options, including all of your jumps. You will not lose any jumps or your Up-B by performing this technique.

@Kupo, who powers up at the edge? I guarantee you that no high level players will even consider doing something that hinders their ability to move and react to their opponent.

Anyway, I'll add this into the next UndrWorld if you're cool with it Kupo.

 

[kupo15]

You are right. I was thinking about my noobish friends who I play sometimes. I only have a couple who are really good but I haven't played the in a while. I need to call them up soon.

And sure, you can add it. That would be great! Thanks!

 

[CorruptFate]

So i'm having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this I can pull off the sh, WOI, Dair, but I can't get any real movment on it. And when I try to cancel it after I slide along the ground I can't cancel it until it does it for me. What am i doing wrong?
Also shouldn't we cancel this with an Nair it has 0 lag doesn't it?

 

[WhatIsPie?]

Thanks, Kupo. I completely missed the dair part.

Also, I think if you get hit during the beginning frames of Pit's WoI, it gets renewed. It happened to me a couple of times. Either that, or I somehow managed to scrape against the edge.

 

[sagemoon]

I'm starting to think I'm misunderstanding what you all are describing. Wingdashing from the edge seems highly punishable. I can't imagine being able to do this against anyone with any metagame and not getting sent right back off the stage immediately.

I think you are getting this idea wrong. Theres two things people are talking about. The first (to push back grenades, etc) is just simpally ledge stalling with the up b, the wind push still pushes back the grenades and you grab the ledge right after. The 2nd is actually getting up onto the ledge, you first ledgehop, than cancel any more upward momentum when going to the stage w/ the up b, then cancel the up b. You can get up much faster this way and follow w/ any attack.

I'm having trouble pulling it off. Is the control stick supposed to be jammed into the upper left corner or just held slightly in that direction? When I try doing it, Pit ends up turning around in the opposite direction.

You have to hold directly up, then after the up b comes out, a direction and a dair, if you hold up and left you will not only lose some distance, but you might even not be able to cancel it as fast because you will lift pit off the ground a bit (even if its unnoticable).

A simple short hop prevents you from being pushed back. Any character that has an aerial that hurts is risky. Unfortunately this goes for most characters.

IF someone short hops the wind push effect will push them higher than they would go normally. This messes up their spacing and is actually detrimental to them, giving you an advantage.

So i'm having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this I can pull off the sh, WOI, Dair, but I can't get any real movment on it. And when I try to cancel it after I slide along the ground I can't cancel it until it does it for me. What am i doing wrong?
Also shouldn't we cancel this with an Nair it has 0 lag doesn't it?

I found out recently that if you try to cancel with nair as fast as you can w/ dair you will get the lag time. Theres a period with nair where you can cancel too early, and too late. Keep that in mind.


Any more questions or clarifications? I'll try my best to help before i post videos (working on them)

 

[CorruptFate]

K thanks sagemoon
So what you need to do, to do the (wavedash) is short hop then right as you leave the ground hit up B then right as that comes out you hold a direction then Dair, repeat am I right?

 

[kupo15]

Corruptfate: I understand where you are having trouble because I run into this occasionally. Here is a good way to practice this:

Step 1: Get the Timing down
First thing is to learn how much time you have before you can't cancel the WoI. Practice performing a WoI Cancel in place and stay in WoI as long as you can before it won't allow you cancel it. You are Dair canceling in this step. Also practice it so that you skip the short hop animation and go straight from standstill to WoI. It should look like magic.

Step 2: Get the momentum w/o cancel
This is where the first variation helps, the Glide back while facing forward. Practice going from a standstill straight to WoI and try to glide as far back and as fast as you can before Pit cancels WoI by itself. Make sure that you are facing forward the WHole time. You are not Dair canceling in this step

Step 3: Combine
Combine the secure timing you have from step 1 with the perfect momentum you learned in step 2. An easy way to do this step is to move your joystick counterclock smoothly from 12 o clock to 6 O clock.
-12:00 Short hop WoI
-6:00 Dair cancel

Step 4 Wingdash while moving
This is harder to do than from a standstill but it still works. You don't get as much distance but using that joystick trick help maximize the distance.

Hope this helps!

 

[CorruptFate]

Sorry if Im causing problems for other people with my little self help thing im asking for.

Corruptfate: I understand where you are having trouble because I run into this occasionally. Here is a good way to practice this:

Step 1: Get the Timing down
First thing is to learn how much time you have before you can't cancel the WoI. Practice performing a WoI Cancel in place and stay in WoI as long as you can before it won't allow you cancel it. You are Dair canceling in this step. Also practice it so that you skip the short hop animation and go straight from standstill to WoI. It should look like magic.

I can do step 1 but can always use more practice with how long the cancel gap is.

Step 2: Get the momentum w/o cancel
This is where the first variation helps, the Glide back while facing forward. Practice going from a standstill straight to WoI and try to glide as far back and as fast as you can before Pit cancels WoI by itself. Make sure that you are facing forward the WHole time. You are not Dair canceling in this step

Step 2 is where I think im having the most trouble I can get the momentum from a standstill straight into a WoI but how do I stay facing forward?

Step 3: Combine
Combine the secure timing you have from step 1 with the perfect momentum you learned in step 2. An easy way to do this step is to move your joystick counterclock smoothly from 12 o clock to 6 O clock.
-12:00 Short hop WoI
-6:00 Dair cancel

Thanks for the help and ya Ill practice.

 

[kupo15]

No worries. In my opinion, this is one of the hardest brawl AT's. As soon as you WoI, hold up and back then release the joystick at the right time. If you time it wrong, you will either not go back very far, or turn around. The goal is to release just before you turn around. Try to imitate the goods ones I do in my video.

 

[sagemoon]

well even if you turn around after you land, you can cancel it with an attack so i dont think thats as big of a deal. You can even use it to get more distance as a spacing advantage (ie wingdash to... craqwalk i think its called, basically a variation of a wavelanding.)

And I agree this is definately the most technical thing in brawl i've seen so far.

 

[kupo15]

Yea, good point. Or you can do that into a dashdance instead of the craqwalk, or short hop Bair. There is so many variations to perform this techniques it is mind boggling. You even have control over how much spacing you want as well.

 

[Leggo]

yeah i personally think this is most useful for spacing, and creating openings,

 

[kupo15]

Sagemoon is in the process of uploading footage of Wingdashing in action. Out of about 10 matches, I have uploaded two so far. Thanks Sagemoon!

 

[KratosAurion]

Hey there guys, I've been a long time lurker on this forum since the Melee days and after all this time I decided to participate in this comunity as well ^^. First of all I'd like to to thank UndrDog and everyone else here for their kind efforts in discovering and explaining these Adv. Techs.

Anyway, I wanted to ask a couple of questions regarding the execution and usefulness of the wingdash. Sorry if this has been answered earlier, I went through the 5 pages real fast:

1- Correct me if I'm wrong but I saw in another thread that you could cancel the WoI with the Z button. Can you do this with the wingdash instead of the Dair? I'm finding the Dair very complicated ><

2- Can you wingdash towards the enemy? Like, cancelling a projectile and gaining distance at the same time for an easy f-smash? In sagemoon's videos i only saw him going backwards by a little bit.

3- When gliding backwards without cancelling thwWoI (step 2 in kupo15's post), do I have to hold up and back in the joystick the whole time? Do I have to release it and rely on momentum for the rest of the move?

Anyway that's all for now. I guess this technique is very situational but it won't hurt me to learn it

 

[sagemoon]

1. You can cancel w/ z but the theres a point that you get a lot of lag if you do it too early. Also if you cancel with z its normally to bring the shield up right after. Dair is the best way to do it so just keep practicing and you will get it down ^_^

2. Yeah you can. I did it in the 2nd video. Idk why i dont do it more. Maybe i just get too intimidated?

3. nvm i dont fully understand the question

Edit: I have the remainder of the 10 videos in my profile on youtube. \

 

[kupo15]

3- Yes. At a certain point you must release the joystick or else you will turn around.

 

[CorruptFate]

I no this isn't the place to bring it up but sagemoon you said that the IC's can bring you up to 70% with there grab that is there max on some but they do have 2 infinite grabs: Z grabbing and 1 that as far as I know doesn't have a name but is easier to do so never get gabbed by them if you can help it.

 

[sagemoon]

Exactly. I should have said they can easily get you up to 70% off one grab. Although nana is very easy to kill with chain bairs to death because of her lack of DI

 

[kupo15]

I added pictures of a Training stage in case anyone would like to make one

 

[kotahlicious]

i dont want to sound negative but in sagemoons wd to spike video couldnt he have walked there in the same amount of time thus not even needing to do the complicated wing dash?

 

[Stryks]

Yeah I dont visit the character chat much, so sorry if I dont understand how exactly its performed...

So its jump + upB+???...

I dont get the next part, 'quickly move the joystick in the direction facing up and back' do u mean, that move the Joystick to the direction im looking, then back, or the direction im looking, up then back??

sorry if I sound n00bish, i just have trouble with the next action...

 

[kotahlicious]

Yeah I dont visit the character chat much, so sorry if I dont understand how exactly its performed...

So its jump + upB+???...

I dont get the next part, 'quickly move the joystick in the direction facing up and back' do u mean, that move the Joystick to the direction im looking, then back, or the direction im looking, up then back??

sorry if I sound n00bish, i just have trouble with the next action...

trust me its fricken hard i thing kupo told me to switfly move (if facing left) counter clockwise from 12 o clock to 6 o clock corect me if im wrong kupo or someone else.

 

[kupo15]

A video of my training stage will be up shortly. It should answer all questions. The best thing to do is to imitate what you see and make the button inputs your own. Just imitate and you should be able to at least understand it quickly

EDIT: Training Stage Video Up. Link is above video section

 

[Stryks]

U know u should record a vid where it shows how u do it on the controller, as in zoom in with ur cam over the controller, and do the wingdash, since the problem im having is how to do the joystick part...

 

[kupo15]

oh ok. Will it help even though I use the mote/chuck?

 

[Stryks]

well yeah, is if u can give it a whirl with the cube controller, it wouldnt hurt XD

 

[kupo15]

Here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elAWtlLE874
As you can see, I am basically doing a half circle. It is made so that R is special but since you are focusing on the joystick, its should be fine I hope.
Does this clear things up?