Will Shiek Return?

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy, while I appreciate the fact that you believe Sheik will be removed... this post is almost nothing but flame bait that just makes this side look bad.

Sorry if you feel that way, but I didn't write this to provoke anyone. I meant every word. Sheik needs to go - badly.

 

[Stryks]

^^^ I second that...
Sheik will probably not return, u all know why, her chances are veyr slim...

 

[tstumo]

^^and I third it. time and time again people have been giving good valid reasons as to why shiek shouldnt and wont return.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Ok, but then...
If Zamus isn't a near-identical replacement for Sheik, then she has no bearing on whether or not sheik should return. Sheik shouldn't be taken out just because a character with a similar playstyle is added anymore than Bowser should be taken out if another heavy character gets added. You wouldn't argue against Marth if Sigurd made it in, right? Even if they both played the same?
Of course you wouldn't. Because, similar or not, two unique movesets is always better than one unique movsets. That's just math.

There's no practical reason to remove Sheik. Only the romantic notion that she no longer has a place in the Zelda series. It all boils down to preferences. Is it more important for smash to make sense, or is it more important for smash to be fun and diverse?

Im a Shiek Main, and your words are an inspiration to my favorite character :D

Well my -favorite- character is falcon, but my best is shiek, I have a natural ability to play her. I will want to experiment with other characters in brawl (duh) but Id love to see shiek make a comeback, just leave zelda in the game with shiek transform ability... maybe make zelda not suck this time, who knows.

 

[OysterMeister]

Wiseguy:
You seem to be saying that Sheik should go because she's an unfair character, am I right? That would be a valid argument for her removal from Melee, but not from Brawl. Since Brawl is as yet unfinished, and we know that there will be significant changes to characters in the transition fro Melee to Brawl, we also know that any judgment on characters as they appear in Melee has no relevance on Brawl whatsoever. None. Not even a tiny bit.
After all, ANY character can be given unfair stats and overpowered, I don't think it has anything specifically to do with Sheik. Pichu could be a freakin' unfair powerhouse in Brawl. Of course, he most likely won't even be in the game, but my point is that he could be cheap in Brawl.

You're also making the wrong assumption about Links new Twilight Princess look. Link in smash bros has always been based of his most recent appearance. Remember that when Melee was released Ocarina of Time was STILL Links most recent (and only) 3D appearance to go off of. Link looking like he does in TP isn't a step in some bold new direction, it's a continuation of representing link as his character continues to evolve.
And this applies to all Zelda characters in Melee, including Zelda herself. She got a TP look because it's her most recent, not because Sakurai has decided to suddenly put all this extra emphasis on the newer games. She'll very probably pull some new moves from TP, but this doesn't mean she'll ditch all her old ones. If Sheik can remain an interesting gameplay mechanic, then she'll stay, despite not being in TP.

Oops, I've gone on a little too long. Sorry about that...

 

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy:
You seem to be saying that Sheik should go because she's an unfair character, am I right? That would be a valid argument for her removal from Melee, but not from Brawl. Since Brawl is as yet unfinished, and we know that there will be significant changes to characters in the transition fro Melee to Brawl, we also know that any judgment on characters as they appear in Melee has no relevance on Brawl whatsoever. None. Not even a tiny bit.
After all, ANY character can be given unfair stats and overpowered, I don't think it has anything specifically to do with Sheik. Pichu could be a freakin' unfair powerhouse in Brawl. Of course, he most likely won't even be in the game, but my point is that he could be cheap in Brawl.

You're also making the wrong assumption about Links new Twilight Princess look. Link in smash bros has always been based of his most recent appearance. Remember that when Melee was released Ocarina of Time was STILL Links most recent (and only) 3D appearance to go off of. Link looking like he does in TP isn't a step in some bold new direction, it's a continuation of representing link as his character continues to evolve.
And this applies to all Zelda characters in Melee, including Zelda herself. She got a TP look because it's her most recent, not because Sakurai has decided to suddenly put all this extra emphasis on the newer games. She'll very probably pull some new moves from TP, but this doesn't mean she'll ditch all her old ones. If Sheik can remain an interesting gameplay mechanic, then she'll stay, despite not being in TP.

Oops, I've gone on a little too long. Sorry about that...

I agree that a character's appearance in Melee is not necessarily be extactly how they will appear in Brawl. Certainly, in the transition from SSB 64 to Melee characters like Kirby and Ness were nerfed to a significant extent. So, of charcaters who deserve to return, many could potentially be buffed or nerfed. Fox, for example, will almost certainly be toned down.

However, the point of my post (besides letting off some steam) was to establish that Sheik does not deserve to be included in Brawl. Being included as a playable charcater is Smash Bros. is greatest honour that be bestowed on a videogame character and even programing a returning charcater's moveset into the game is a time consuming process. Sheik's claim to fame is a supporting role in game that came out almost a decade ago (and as an ridiculously broken charcater in Melee). You may see Sheik as a gameplay mechanic, but including her would be just as time consuming as including a "pure character addition" like Diddy Kong or Ridley.

Bottom line: Sheik is only as popular as she is because of her excesive cheapness, not becasue the charcater is esspecially compelling. Since she would have to be drastically nerfed if she were to reapear, why bother at all? All the Sheik "fans" would just choose one the higher tier charcaters in Brawl. As a supporting charcater, Sheik was lucky to get a spot on the Melee roster. Now its time for her to be replaced by a charcater from the more recent Zelda games.

As for Twilight Princess Zelda, it would make no sense for her to have the ability to transform into Sheik since that ability was unique to OoT Zelda. TP Zelda is seperate individual entirely. I could potentially see her retain some of her magic moves, but the Smash team should focus on giving her a fun and unique moveset, rather than waiting time with Sheik who a seperate charcater entirely.

 

[Addled_Leper]

I wouldn't mind if Shiek stayed ... on the following conditions. 1. that she no longer can chainthrow just about every character in the game. 2. Her "lagless" ariels actually do have noticeable lag if not properly L cancelled. 3. Her weight is adjusted such that she can be combo'd a bit more easily. (no more samus floatyness with fox-like speed)

This would probably drastically reduce the number of shiek players. I even admit to using her if I feel my fox/falco isn't working against an opponent.

In this case she would still be the "same" character without the cheapness. God-forbid a shiek has to learn advanced techniques. I guess they could also do what wiseguy said, not bother changing her and just creating some other new character as well.

 

[OysterMeister]

Bottom line: Sheik is only as popular as she is because of her excesive cheapness, not becasue the charcater is esspecially compelling. Since she would have to be drastically nerfed if she were to reapear, why bother at all? All the Sheik "fans" would just choose one the higher tier charcaters in Brawl. As a supporting charcater, Sheik was lucky to get a spot on the Melee roster. Now its time for her to be replaced by a charcater from the more recent Zelda games.

I can understand why you would want to cut Sheik due to her lack of any appearance after Oot, but why then would you want a more recent Zelda character? I love Midna, but can you honestly believe she's going to appear in another Zelda game? Why would you bestow the "greatest honour that be bestowed on a videogame character" on a character that most likely won't be making a return appearance?

As for Twilight Princess Zelda, it would make no sense for her to have the ability to transform into Sheik since that ability was unique to OoT Zelda. TP Zelda is seperate individual entirely. I could potentially see her retain some of her magic moves, but the Smash team should focus on giving her a fun and unique moveset, rather than waiting time with Sheik who a seperate charcater entirely.

Yes Zelda in Oot and TP are different. But Zelda in smash bros is something different altogether. Zelda in smash bros, like EVERY character in smash bros, is an amalgamation of all of her appearances. In Brawl, Zelda will LOOK like she does in TP, because that's her most recent and best developed look, but she wont actually BE the same Zelda from TP. In Brawl, Zelda has access to all her appearances when creating a moveset. And that includes Sheik just as much as it does her magic.

 

[Wiseguy]

I can understand why you would want to cut Sheik due to her lack of any appearance after Oot, but why then would you want a more recent Zelda character? I love Midna, but can you honestly believe she's going to appear in another Zelda game? Why would you bestow the "greatest honour that be bestowed on a videogame character" on a character that most likely won't be making a return appearance?

My reasoning is that the idea of including a minor characters like Sheik for a single game is fine. At the time of Melee's realease, OoT was the most important Zelda game to date so Sheik inclusion was justified. However, since she is such a minor charcater, she does not deserve to be a permanent charcater in Smash Bros - only a guest character.

Likewise, Midna was the most influential supporting character in the most recent game in the Zelda series so she too deserves to appear in one Smash Bros game. Since Midna will likely never appear agin, she can be cut for SSB 4.

Yes Zelda in Oot and TP are different. But Zelda in smash bros is something different altogether. Zelda in smash bros, like EVERY character in smash bros, is an amalgamation of all of her appearances. In Brawl, Zelda will LOOK like she does in TP, because that's her most recent and best developed look, but she wont actually BE the same Zelda from TP. In Brawl, Zelda has access to all her appearances when creating a moveset. And that includes Sheik just as much as it does her magic.

Your claim is depatable. Certainly, characters like Mario and Kirby borrow moves from various games that they have apeared in, but Link and Zelda in Melee had moves exclusively from OoT and obviously their appearnce was taken directly form OoT. Wheras there is only one Mario and Kirby who appear in multiple games, every Link and Zelda in the Zelda series (with a few exceptions) are separate and unique individuals. Therefore, the Link from Twilight Princess with be given an appearnce and moveset consisistent with the game he appeared in and likewise the Twilight Princess Zelda will reflect the game she apeared in. That means no Sheik transformation. Having TP Zelda tranform into Sheik would make as much sense as her transforming into Tetra.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik was just there in Melee to make Zelda more unique. Keep in mind; even Fox -a character that didn't even needed it- got a little overhaul, Sakurai said he'd remade the characters from the start and Zelda needs the change much more than Fox. Say bye bye to Sheik.

Also Oyser I find it funny how you keep on saying that the Smash characters are an amalgamations of all appearances, cause you don't even know. Link's both Smash apperances are both heavily based on Ocarina of Time. But keep in mind that the character Link never really changes, he'd always have a sword, shield, bow, boomerang and bombs nomather what. Zelda is a whole diffrent story...

 

[OysterMeister]

Also Oyser I find it funny how you keep on saying that the Smash characters are an amalgamations of all appearances, cause you don't even know. Link's both Smash apperances are both heavily based on Ocarina of Time. But keep in mind that the character Link never really changes, he'd always have a sword, shield, bow, boomerang and bombs nomather what. Zelda is a whole diffrent story...

Well, as someone who didn't help to make melee, yeah, a can't really know, but I can make an educated guess. Here's the edvidence, I'll try to stick with Link:
Links Dair and Uair are directly from LoZ2. Yet, up until TP, these moves hadn't appeared in a single Zelda game since their creation. These moves weren't invented for Link by the smash bros team, they were taken from a game different from the one he got his look from.
Also, smash bros link can use the boomerang, which is something he couldn't do in Oot. And have you wondered WHY Link was given the Bombs, Boomerange, Bow, and Spin attack? Surely there was plenty more to draw from in Ocarina? Why doesn't he use the Megaton Hammer, or the Biggorron sword? Or Bombchus, or Din's Fire? Or any of the other treasures he got in Oot? Is it just a coincidence that they decided to give Link the four abilities he always gets in all of his games? No, of course not. They gave him his most common abilities because they wanted the Link in Smash Bros to represent all his appearances as best he could. Because that's the true Link, not just the hero of one game, but the hero of ALL the games.
Zelda is of course trickier, in that she hasn't been as consistent as Link. But this doesn't mean that one version of the princess from one of the games should suddenly become the official version to represent all of them. She can give and take certain aspects from certain games and other aspects from other games. The point is that she won't take ALL her aspects from just ONE of her games.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well, as someone who didn't help to make melee, yeah, a can't really know, but I can make an educated guess. Here's the edvidence, I'll try to stick with Link:
Links Dair and Uair are directly from LoZ2. Yet, up until TP, these moves hadn't appeared in a single Zelda game since their creation. These moves weren't invented for Link by the smash bros team, they were taken from a game different from the one he got his look from.
Also, smash bros link can use the boomerang, which is something he couldn't do in Oot. And have you wondered WHY Link was given the Bombs, Boomerange, Bow, and Spin attack? Surely there was plenty more to draw from in Ocarina? Why doesn't he use the Megaton Hammer, or the Biggorron sword? Or Bombchus, or Din's Fire? Or any of the other treasures he got in Oot? Is it just a coincidence that they decided to give Link the four abilities he always gets in all of his games? No, of course not. They gave him his most common abilities because they wanted the Link in Smash Bros to represent all his appearances as best he could. Because that's the true Link, not just the hero of one game, but the hero of ALL the games.
Zelda is of course trickier, in that she hasn't been as consistent as Link. But this doesn't mean that one version of the princess from one of the games should suddenly become the official version to represent all of them. She can give and take certain aspects from certain games and other aspects from other games. The point is that she won't take ALL her aspects from just ONE of her games.

O.K., so Link borrows one or two moves from LoZ2 - but bombs, arrows and boomerangs are all moves taken directly from OoT (although old link never uses bombs). Anyway, what does that say about Zelda? Her moves and appeanrance in Melee were all taken from OoT. Therefore, how is she in any way representative of other Zeldas? Short answer: she isn't. She is the Zelda from OoT, just like the new Zelda will be the Zelda from TP.

As I previously said, having TP Zelda transform into Sheik makes no sense because Zelda/Sheik from OoT and TP Zelda are completly different individuals (even though they share the same name). It would make as much sense as having her transform into Tetra.

 

[OysterMeister]

O.K., so Link borrows one or two moves from LoZ2 - but bombs, arrows and boomerangs are all moves taken directly from OoT (although old link never uses bombs). Anyway, what does that say about Zelda? Her moves and appeanrance in Melee were all taken from OoT. Therefore, how is she in any way representative of other Zeldas? Short answer: she isn't. She is the Zelda from OoT, just like the new Zelda will be the Zelda from TP.

As I previously said, having TP Zelda transform into Sheik makes no sense because Zelda/Sheik from OoT and TP Zelda are completly different individuals (even though they share the same name). It would make as much sense as having her transform into Tetra.

First off, I'm just going to say that Adult Link uses bombs in Ocarina of Time. It's the Boomerang he losses, the boomerang.
Also, you're wrong. The bombs, arrows, and boomerang are NOT all taken from Oot. They are all weapons that have been in Links arsenal since the very first Zelda game, and have remained with link even to the present day. THAT'S why link has them; because out of all the weapons he's ever weilded those are the most iconic. And why are they the most iconic? Because Link's always had them.
Link looked like his Oot self in smash bros because at the time that was the only 3D model to go off of. He looks like his TP incarnation in Brawl because the TP model is the most developed 3D look he's ever had. It would be silly to use anything less.

Now, in melee, SOME of what Zelda had was taken from Oot. But by far most of it was just flat-out made up, because Zelda didn't excatly have what you'd call a whole lot of face-time in the Zelda series at that point. At the time melee came out, Oot was Zeldas biggest appearance in the franchise, and the melee team STILL had to steal most of her moves from link! The only move Zelda got from Oot that she actually USED in the that game was, well, Sheik. Everything else she had in Melee was stolen from Link.
With characters like this, who don't have enough material to make a moveset on their own (Captain Falcon, Fox) the smash bros team tends to instead focus on a moveset that FEELS right. Something that's true more to the idea of a character, rather than their actions. This is excatly what happened to Zelda, which is why her moveset is so ambiguous. But in Brawl, Zelda WILL have multiple games to draw from, and that's why I say that in Brawl she'll start to do whay Link and others already do: represent themselves across multiple appearances in multiple games.

 

[Wiseguy]

First off, I'm just going to say that Adult Link uses bombs in Ocarina of Time. It's the Boomerang he losses, the boomerang..

Doh! You're right, obviously. I meant to say that old Link doesn't use his boomerang, although it still apears in OoT. You were right to correct me on such an obvoius blunder.

Also, you're wrong. The bombs, arrows, and boomerang are NOT all taken from Oot. They are all weapons that have been in Links arsenal since the very first Zelda game, and have remained with link even to the present day. THAT'S why link has them; because out of all the weapons he's ever weilded those are the most iconic. And why are they the most iconic? Because Link's always had them.
Link looked like his Oot self in smash bros because at the time that was the only 3D model to go off of. He looks like his TP incarnation in Brawl because the TP model is the most developed 3D look he's ever had. It would be silly to use anything less.

This whole argument is what is silly. Link uses bombs, arrows and boomerang in every game in which he has ever appeared in, including OoT. What else would he use other than his primary weapons?

Still, the appearance of these weapons vary slightly from game to game, and their appearance in Smash Bros is straight from OoT. Likewise, we can likely expect TP Link in Brawl to have his weapons modified slightly to be consistent with the game in which he appeared (ie: the gale boomerang, etc.) but I'm just speculating.

Regardless, the Smash team will still make a moveset that stays true to aspects of Link that have remained consistent since the begining - because all the Links share common attributes. In that regard, we are both correct, so there is no point in arguing semantics.

Now, in melee, SOME of what Zelda had was taken from Oot. But by far most of it was just flat-out made up, because Zelda didn't excatly have what you'd call a whole lot of face-time in the Zelda series at that point. At the time melee came out, Oot was Zeldas biggest appearance in the franchise, and the melee team STILL had to steal most of her moves from link! The only move Zelda got from Oot that she actually USED in the that game was, well, Sheik. Everything else she had in Melee was stolen from Link.

With characters like this, who don't have enough material to make a moveset on their own (Captain Falcon, Fox) the smash bros team tends to instead focus on a moveset that FEELS right. Something that's true more to the idea of a character, rather than their actions. This is excatly what happened to Zelda, which is why her moveset is so ambiguous.

I'm failing to see how these points support your argument. As you pointed out, all of Zelda/Sheik's moves are either taken from OoT (ie: Din's fire, Sheik's telportation, etc.) or completly made up. This points to the character in Melee being modeled entirely after the OoT Zelda, not a hodge-podge of all the Zeldas in the series. For all we know, you could still be right about the Smash team's overall intentions when designing the character, but frankly your just jumping to conclusions without any evidence. All we have to go by is what moves they actually did include.

But in Brawl, Zelda WILL have multiple games to draw from, and that's why I say that in Brawl she'll start to do whay Link and others already do: represent themselves across multiple appearances in multiple games.

The problem with drawing common moves from all the Zeldas is that, unlike the various Links in the series, they all varry in their abilities and (to a lesser extent) appearance & presonlity atributes. Zelda/Sheik in OoT had magic as well as the ability to transforn into a Ninja; Zelda/Tetra in Windwaker weilded a curved sword as a pirate and light arrows at the game's finale; likewise, the Zelda in TP can weild a sword and light arrows in addition to her magic. Trying to make one moveset to reflect all these Zeldas would be akward and out of place because all Zelda playerd are aware that these are separate individuals with unique attributes.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Since the new Zelda with be remodeled after TP Zelda, she cannot transform into Sheik - that was an ability unique to OoT Zelda. Please explain how this would be any less out of place than having her transform into Tetra.

 

[tstumo]

Wise guy kudos to you caus your reasoning is great. Oyster, you are right when you say Zelda hasnt gotten much face time. we all know this is true. you say that maybe Zelda will be based off of her appearnces in all the games she's been in. I think weve all known Zelda to always use magic so just like Link using a sword and some bombs in each iteration of Smash it will remain the basis for their moves. I do expect Zelda to still use magic in brawl.

However i dont see how Shiek will fit into that equation. This is what it comes down to. Sheik was a one time thing. think of it as Mario wearing that frog suit in brawl because he wore it super mario bros 3. to me it wouldnt make much sense. For mario it was a one time thing. Shiek's inclusion in melee wasnt because Shiek was so popular and important to the series but because OOT was the most recent Zelda game that included Zelda actually doing something at that time. And in Brawl it will be the same way. just like Link, Zelda and Ganondorf will get their TP look along with the appropriate moves because TP is the most recent iteration in the Zelda series just like OOT was for melee. in Zelda's moves that doesnt include transforming into something that isnt really needed anymore. Zelda needed to disguise herself in OOT as shiek. in TP or in any other Zelda game Shiek is not acknowledged because she is not needed. simple as that. If Sheik had made many apperances and was a Signature thing to Zelda then i'd be like okay. but it's not and if im not mistaken a Shiekah isnt the only thing she can transform into.

just like the frog suit for mario Shiek was a costume/disguise for Zelda which was in one game and wasnt the basis of their moves hence no frog suit transforming mario in any of the SSB's and same goes for no Sheik transforming Zelda. Shiek being in melee actaully made sense but her being in brawl doesnt. Now people will actually play as zelda for once.
whew!!

 

[OysterMeister]

This whole argument is what is silly. Link uses bombs, arrows and boomerang in every game in which he has ever appeared in, including OoT. What else would he use other than his primary weapons?

Still, the appearance of these weapons vary slightly from game to game, and their appearance in Smash Bros is straight from OoT. Likewise, we can likely expect TP Link in Brawl to have his weapons modified slightly to be consistent with the game in which he appeared (ie: the gale boomerang, etc.) but I'm just speculating.

Regardless, the Smash team will still make a moveset that stays true to aspects of Link that have remained consistent since the begining - because all the Links share common attributes. In that regard, we are both correct, so there is no point in arguing semantics.

Exactly. All Link's share common attributes. And in Melee, Link's moveset was built to reflect these common attributes, and not game-specific attributes. In this way, Link in Smash Bros can represent any link, and not just Link from one game. The only way in which Link from Smash Bros represents Oot Link is that he shares the same model, but considering that the smash team had no other 3D appearance of Link to go off of, I don't see this as indicitive of anything. I mean, Link has a set look, and generaly each new game in the series develops that look even further, becoming the new canon look for Link. It would be weird if they went to the trouble of creating a whole new look for Link when they didn't have to.

The problem with drawing common moves from all the Zeldas is that, unlike the various Links in the series, they all varry in their abilities and (to a lesser extent) appearance & presonlity atributes. Zelda/Sheik in OoT had magic as well as the ability to transforn into a Ninja; Zelda/Tetra in Windwaker weilded a curved sword as a pirate and light arrows at the game's finale; likewise, the Zelda in TP can weild a sword and light arrows in addition to her magic. Trying to make one moveset to reflect all these Zeldas would be akward and out of place because all Zelda playerd are aware that these are separate individuals with unique attributes.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Since the new Zelda with be remodeled after TP Zelda, she cannot transform into Sheik - that was an ability unique to OoT Zelda. Please explain how this would be any less out of place than having her transform into Tetra.

Well, at the risk of making this post WAY to long...
Link had a few transformations too, right? He could become a Deku, or a Wolf. But all of these abilities are unique to just one Link, not the Link we see in Smash bros, who's pretty much the all-purpose-Link who fits any situation. I see the same thing with Zelda. Some abilities aren't realy true to who and what she is. For instance, Tetra. In Wind Waker, you had the character Tetra, who was revealed to be Zelda. In this sense, Tetra was the original, and Zelda the transformation. I would view this as something not to be included in a final moveset, similar to not having wolf-link, who requires twilight powers to exist.

Besides, I see Tetra as belonging to the world of the cartoony young-link, not to the more realistic world that Oot and TP are part of.

Now, this is just my opinion, but... Zelda can become Sheik on her own. She doesn't require a mask, or some alternate world, or any powerups. She just does it. The same way she performs any of her magic: it's just an ability of hers, a representation of her use of her magical powers. So I don't see why context puts this ability out of reach. Maybe Zelda doesn't feel like becoming a ninja when she's got a sword. You wouldn't say Oot Zelda was incapable of swordfighting, right?

My point (my long-winded point) is that not everything Zelda does has to make it into her moveset. But not everything has to be cut, either, especialy since she's been so different each time she makes an appearance lately. And I think that the idea of Zelda useing her magic to enable her to fight is the closest to what the 'true' Zelda would do. Sheik is just an extension of this idea.

 

[RyNo 86]

at the risk of sounding like an idiot, nintendo developers must realize that shiek is a very popular char, so ehy not just separate sheik and Zelda into two completly different chars. I know that Zelda and shiek are the same person, but so is Link and young link, if the developers wanted they could have made link and young link into the same char but instead the separated them, why not do the same with shiek.

 

[Da N]

yeah hes got a point why wouldnt the nintendo developers just separate shiek and zelda in brawl, if they even come back in brawl.

 

[GreenMamba]

Roy is very popular with scrubs, which outnumber pros by a wide margin, yet it's okay he's likely to be cut?

 

[Wiseguy]

Exactly. All Link's share common attributes. And in Melee, Link's moveset was built to reflect these common attributes, and not game-specific attributes. In this way, Link in Smash Bros can represent any link, and not just Link from one game. The only way in which Link from Smash Bros represents Oot Link is that he shares the same model, but considering that the smash team had no other 3D appearance of Link to go off of, I don't see this as indicitive of anything. I mean, Link has a set look, and generaly each new game in the series develops that look even further, becoming the new canon look for Link. It would be weird if they went to the trouble of creating a whole new look for Link when they didn't have to.[/COLOR]

Obviously I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that the moves common to all Links and specific to OoT Link are one and the same, proving nothing.

Well, at the risk of making this post WAY to long...
Link had a few transformations too, right? He could become a Deku, or a Wolf. But all of these abilities are unique to just one Link, not the Link we see in Smash bros, who's pretty much the all-purpose-Link who fits any situation. I see the same thing with Zelda. Some abilities aren't realy true to who and what she is. For instance, Tetra. In Wind Waker, you had the character Tetra, who was revealed to be Zelda.

Once again, I don't understand how this supports your argument. You seem to be saying that Link in Smash can't transform into a Deku or Wolf because they are abilities unique to specific Links and therefore not representative of the charcater as a whole. By this standard, Sheik could not be included because she was specific to OoT Zelda.

In this sense, Tetra was the original, and Zelda the transformation. I would view this as something not to be included in a final moveset, similar to not having wolf-link, who requires twilight powers to exist.

Besides, I see Tetra as belonging to the world of the cartoony young-link, not to the more realistic world that Oot and TP are part of.

While these points are good reasons not to include Tetra as a transformation, the main reason why is because WW Zelda and TP Zelda are completly different individiuals. Having TP Zelda transform into Tetra or Sheik would be completely out of place.

Now, this is just my opinion, but... Zelda can become Sheik on her own. She doesn't require a mask, or some alternate world, or any powerups. She just does it. The same way she performs any of her magic: it's just an ability of hers, a representation of her use of her magical powers. So I don't see why context puts this ability out of reach. Maybe Zelda doesn't feel like becoming a ninja when she's got a sword. You wouldn't say Oot Zelda was incapable of swordfighting, right?

Your logic makes me question my own santity.

OoT Zelda didn't weild a sword in Melee because she never weilded a sword in her game. TP Zelda in Brawl won't transform into Sheik because she never transformed in her game. It's as simple as that.

My point (my long-winded point) is that not everything Zelda does has to make it into her moveset. But not everything has to be cut, either, especialy since she's been so different each time she makes an appearance lately. And I think that the idea of Zelda useing her magic to enable her to fight is the closest to what the 'true' Zelda would do. Sheik is just an extension of this idea.[/COLOR]

I was in agreement, until the last sentence. Magic moves are all well and good, but Sheik is unique to OoT Zelda.

Also, Sheik is not just a cool ability like Link's boomerang, she requires as much time and effort as any other character. Her inclusion would mean that some other character, undoubtably more deserving, won't make the cut.

at the risk of sounding like an idiot, nintendo developers must realize that shiek is a very popular char, so ehy not just separate sheik and Zelda into two completly different chars. I know that Zelda and shiek are the same person, but so is Link and young link, if the developers wanted they could have made link and young link into the same char but instead the separated them, why not do the same with shiek.

Sheik isn't popular, her stupidly cheap moveset is. The only reason so many people use her is because she can destroy anyone not playing as a high tier character. If she were not so powerful, all her "fans" would disapear. Far better to include a more recent Zelda charcater in her place, like Midna.

 

[HideousBeing]

Roy is very popular with scrubs, which outnumber pros by a wide margin, yet it's okay he's likely to be cut?

Exactly. It's not like Nintendo doesn't appeal to the scrubs. We at SWF don't but they could care less- scrubs are, after all, the majority of the customers.

 

[OysterMeister]

Obviously I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that the moves common to all Links and specific to OoT Link are one and the same, proving nothing.

Not true. Oot Link had weapons not represented by Link in smash bros. He had the Megaton hammer, Din's fire, and the Ice arrows, just to name a few.
Similarly, the Link from A Link To The Past had an ice wand and that invisibility cape thing. Link from Link's Awakening had the Rocs Feather. He got the seed shooter in the oracle games, and he had a ladder as a treasure in the first game.
My point is that Link has moves specific to Oot that don't appear in his Smash Bros moveset. Link has moves in ALL the Zelda games that are specific to just that game and not Link as a whole. None of these moves appear in Link's Smash Bros moveset, instead it's only the moves that hold true over all the games that did.
Now, if Link in Smash Bros was really Link from Oot (and not a combination of all Links) then he would have something other than his appearance to tie him to that game. He doesn't. In smash bros, Link has no move that could only have come from Oot. But carry this a step further. Does Link have ANY move that is specific to just one game or appearance? No, no he doesn't. Link in Smash Bros has no moves that tie him to just one game, because the developers did their best to make Link in Smash Bros a representative of ALL Links from each Zelda game. He's just been visually patterned after his Oot model, which seems to have fooled quite a few people.

Link in Melee isn't the Link from Oot. Link in Brawl isn't the Link from TP. An by extension every other character in smash bros who comes from a series will be based of more than just one appearance in that series.

 

[Wiseguy]

Not true. Oot Link had weapons not represented by Link in smash bros. He had the Megaton hammer, Din's fire, and the Ice arrows, just to name a few.
Similarly, the Link from A Link To The Past had an ice wand and that invisibility cape thing. Link from Link's Awakening had the Rocs Feather. He got the seed shooter in the oracle games, and he had a ladder as a treasure in the first game.

This is getting ridiculous. The obvious fact that OoT Link doesn't weild all of his moves from OoT proves nothing about Link's role as a representative - and even less to support your argument about Sheik returning. All of his weapons in Smash (sword, sheild, bow, boomerang & bombs) look exactly as they did in OoT, not as they did in ALttP or any other Zelda game.

My point is that Link has moves specific to Oot that don't appear in his Smash Bros moveset. Link has moves in ALL the Zelda games that are specific to just that game and not Link as a whole. None of these moves appear in Link's Smash Bros moveset, instead it's only the moves that hold true over all the games that did.

Listen very carefully: I don't disagree. Link in Smash Bros serves as a representative of all the Links, in spite of being modeled after OoT Link, because most of his attacks from OoT have been Zelda conventions since the beginning of the Zelda series. But since the Smash team cleverly designed him to serve as a representative of the Zelda series as a whole and OoT in particular, neither you nor I can use his moveset to support our arguments.

Now, if Link in Smash Bros was really Link from Oot (and not a combination of all Links) then he would have something other than his appearance to tie him to that game.

Why? By using moves from OoT that are staples of the Zelda series Link serves both purposes.

He doesn't. In smash bros, Link has no move that could only have come from Oot. But carry this a step further. Does Link have ANY move that is specific to just one game or appearance? No, no he doesn't. Link in Smash Bros has no moves that tie him to just one game, because the developers did their best to make Link in Smash Bros a representative of ALL Links from each Zelda game. He's just been visually patterned after his Oot model, which seems to have fooled quite a few people.

Assuming, for the moment, that it was the Smash Team's intention to make Link in Melee a representative of OoT Link, why would they give him an ability unique to OoT like the hammer? His other primary weapons in OoT (bombs, bow and boomerang) are more commonly associated with the Link character, thus making Link a represntative of both his OoT incarnation as well as all previous incarnations. Two birds with one stone, as they say.The same tactic will no doubt be applied with TP Link in Brawl.

Anyway, your argument still lacks any conclusive facts to support your interpretaion of Link in SSB. Hopthetically, if bombs didn't appear in OoT and the character in Samsh still used bombs, then you could assert that Link was solely a represenative of all the Links and not specifically OoT Link. As it stands, however, you are only speculationg.

Most imortantly, how does this prove that Sheik will return? Sheik was an "attack" specific to OoT Zelda. If you are right about the Zelda characters in SSB reflecting the characteristics of all their in-game counterparts, then Sheik would never have appeared in Melee.

Link in Melee isn't the Link from Oot. Link in Brawl isn't the Link from TP. An by extension every other character in smash bros who comes from a series will be based of more than just one appearance in that series.

Interesting claim. If only you had something other than unfounded speculation to back it up...

Regardless, this debate is supposed to be about Sheik - not Link. Try and bring your arument back to Sheik so we don't get too off topic.

 

[Deleted member]

I applaud the discussion in this thread. It went a little off-topic... Still, good discussion even if it did stray more to Link than Sheik. Sheik's presence only has a small impact on Link and vice versa. Even if Link were a representation of all his appearances in the entire series it doesn't mean Zelda was built around that rule too. For example, Ganondorf was only in one game at that time: OOT. The other games had him in his Ganon form.

The same with Link and Zelda. Every game before OOT had them both as children and as 2D characters, whilst Majora's Mask had Link as a child again and lacked Zelda for most of the time. What you may want to look at is Young Link - he is partially based off his Majora's Mask appearance except the numerous masks in that game. Whether that was to not spend so much time on one character or if they simple chose not to include it in the game is not for me to speculate, his OOT and Majora's Mask models are identical. Now I'm going off topic...

Basically, Sheik is a popular tournament character and a way to give something to Zelda that is origional. To be honest, alone she's less than perfect. In fact Sheik's become high tier and Zelda's medium-low. So... Removing Sheik would be a bad move. Without Sheik Zelda's only got light arrows and teleportation moves, because we simply haven't seen Zelda do anything in the games. Sheik is mysterious, fast and an important character. I won't look it up, but I think Sheik has more game time than Zelda in the game.

Maybe it's not sob bad that the characters are based solely on the 3D games, if they are. If SSB had started in the SNES/NES timeline they would have advanced in the same ways. And Link hasn't changed too drastically over time either, or Zelda, so it's just the models that ever need changing.

 

[Wiseguy]

I applaud the discussion in this thread. It went a little off-topic... Still, good discussion even if it did stray more to Link than Sheik. Sheik's presence only has a small impact on Link and vice versa. Even if Link were a representation of all his appearances in the entire series it doesn't mean Zelda was built around that rule too. For example, Ganondorf was only in one game at that time: OOT. The other games had him in his Ganon form.

Excellent point. You and I are in complete agreement in this regard.

Basically, Sheik is a popular tournament character and a way to give something to Zelda that is origional. To be honest, alone she's less than perfect. In fact Sheik's become high tier and Zelda's medium-low.

You've hit the nail on the head. Sheik is popular solely because she is the most broken character in the game, not because people like the character. Also, her high tier status makes Zelda obselete, which I can't imagine was the designer's original intention. It's worth noting that with the inclusion of Samus/Zamus, Zelda's ability to transform into Sheik would be significantly less original in Brawl.

So... Removing Sheik would be a bad move. Without Sheik Zelda's only got light arrows and teleportation moves, because we simply haven't seen Zelda do anything in the games. Sheik is mysterious, fast and an important character. I won't look it up, but I think Sheik has more game time than Zelda in the game.

My argument is this: since Link was given an undated look to reflect his role in Twilight Princess, Zelda will likely get a similar treatment. For Link, this change is purely cosmetic (as the Links in OoT anf TP were virtually identical) but not so with Zelda.

Just as OoT Zelda in Melee was given moves specific to the game in which she appeared (ie: Din's fire, Sheik) so also must TP Zelda in Brawl be given a moveset that reflects the game in which she appeared. TP Zelda at no time transforms into Sheik or anyone else throughout the entire game. It would be incredibly out of place for TP Zelda to transform into Sheik since that was an ability only used by OoT Zelda - a completly separate and unique individual.

In addition to weilding magic and light arrows, which you mentioned, TP Zelda also weilds a rapier. This provides an opportunity for the Smash team to do justice to the Zelda character by given her a unique moveset without waisting valuable development time on two separate movesets. It would be far better to spend that time on a character from a more recent Zelda game like Midna.

Maybe it's not sob bad that the characters are based solely on the 3D games, if they are. If SSB had started in the SNES/NES timeline they would have advanced in the same ways. And Link hasn't changed too drastically over time either, or Zelda, so it's just the models that ever need changing.

All the Links are certainly similar, but I wouldn't say the same about the various Zeldas in the series. Zelda/Sheik from OoT, Tera/Zelda from Windwaker and TP Zelda all had different abilities, personalities and atributes that make them each unique.

 

[Deleted member]

You've hit the nail on the head. Sheik is popular solely because she is the most broken character in the game, not because people like the character. Also, her high tier status makes Zelda obselete, which I can't imagine was the designer's original intention. It's worth noting that with the inclusion of Samus/Zamus, Zelda's ability to transform into Sheik would be significantly less original in Brawl.

Yes, without Sheik I simply cannot say what would happen to Zelda. Unless she's improved upon she'll be left in the dust, as the only reason people played her for even a second was to switch to Sheik. The reason for this is that Sheik is better in almost every way.

My argument is this: since Link was given an undated look to reflect his role in Twilight Princess, Zelda will likely get a similar treatment. For Link, this change is purely cosmetic (as the Links in OoT anf TP were virtually identical) but not so with Zelda.

Just as OoT Zelda in Melee was given moves specific to the game in which she appeared (ie: Din's fire, Sheik) so also must TP Zelda in Brawl be given a moveset that reflects the game in which she appeared. TP Zelda at no time transforms into Sheik or anyone else throughout the entire game. It would be incredibly out of place for TP Zelda to transform into Sheik since that was an ability only used by OoT Zelda - a completly separate and unique individual.

You make an interesting arguement, but Zelda has only been in one 'Brawl and Adult Link was only in one game up until the first two SSB games. Now that the two have both starred in Twilight Princess we'll see how they incorporate new abilities. We can see Link has followed Twilight Princess' model... But has Link ever used that Super Triforce move? It doesn't seem like anything about his moveset has been revealed to have changed. It seems likely there will be a change... But saying anything at this point is merely speculation. As likely as it may be...

This is the sole reason Sheik still has a chance, and even if Zelda does have her Twilight Princess model we can't know for sure until they confirm/nullify the Sheik claims.

In addition to weilding magic and light arrows, which you mentioned, TP Zelda also weilds a rapier. This provides an opportunity for the Smash team to do justice to the Zelda character by given her a unique moveset without waisting valuable development time on two separate movesets. It would be far better to spend that time on a character from a more recent Zelda game like Midna.

Well... It would be nice for Zelda to have some origionality. Her old moveset is poor, thus why the semi-broken Sheik was raised on a pedestal and Zelda became one of the least popular. However, Midna may have ten times more importance in her respective game but how to utilize her moves is difficult to think of. That massive shadow hammer, for example, would need serious lag to equal it's big possible damage. Midna will be in there somewhere - as a character we can't be sure. I'm not against her, I just have my doubts. If she is in she ma end up like a floaty bowser - which is a fate worse than death in Super Smash Bros.

All the Links are certainly similar, but I wouldn't say the same about the various Zeldas in the series. Zelda/Sheik from OoT, Tera/Zelda from Windwaker and TP Zelda all had different abilities, personalities and atributes that make them each unique.

Remember that Tera from Wind Waker was also a child (if I'm off on this kill me). And, as I've stated already, there are only two Zeldas you can really base her off of. One of them being made after 'Melee. Although he's a seperate character, Fox seems to have incorporated his 'Command and 64 attributes. This could mean all characters will follow suit. Fox is the only character that has changed who is currently confirmed, as all the others are either new to the series (Pit, Wario, Metaknight) or are such staples they haven't changed since 'Melee (Pikachu, Mario, Kirby).

To conclude, you really do have a point, but there are counter-points. All of this is speculation, and I hate waiting for the facts, but maybe that is the only thing we can do right now to resolve things. If a new character is confirmed from the old games maybe we can study their changes from 'Melee to determine how Zelda may develop...

 

[OysterMeister]

...Anyway, your argument still lacks any conclusive facts to support your interpretaion of Link in SSB. Hopthetically, if bombs didn't appear in OoT and the character in Samsh still used bombs, then you could assert that Link was solely a represenative of all the Links and not specifically OoT Link. As it stands, however, you are only speculationg...

...Most imortantly, how does this prove that Sheik will return? Sheik was an
"attack" specific to OoT Zelda. If you are right about the Zelda characters in SSB reflecting the characteristics of all their in-game counterparts, then Sheik would never have appeared in Melee...

Well, now that you mention it... Link in Smash Bros also uses two moves (his Uair and Dair) directly from Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link. The "ending blow" as TP now calls it, makes no appearance in Oot, yet Link in Smash Bros has it. There.
Also, Link in AoL had no bombs or bows or boomerang, but Link in Smash Bros has them as well as some AoL moves. Because in smash bros Link is a hodge-podge of all previous appearances designed to represent the whole.

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that I believe the same can be applied to Zelda. She doesn't have to be limited ONLY to moves that she does in every appearance, that was never my point. My point was that she'll probably be given moves from many of her various appearances so that she can better represent the whole.

Sorry, I should has explained myself better earlier. But I didn't for some reason.

 

[Wiseguy]

Yes, without Sheik I simply cannot say what would happen to Zelda. Unless she's improved upon she'll be left in the dust, as the only reason people played her for even a second was to switch to Sheik. The reason for this is that Sheik is better in almost every way.

True, with Sheik gone Zelda would have to be improved drastically. However, even if by some cruel twist of fate Sheik did return (*shudders at the thought*) she would surely be nerfed into the next century. Either way, the days of unskilled players using Sheik's unfairly overpowered moveset as a crutch will surely come to an end.

You make an interesting arguement, but Zelda has only been in one 'Brawl and Adult Link was only in one game up until the first two SSB games. Now that the two have both starred in Twilight Princess we'll see how they incorporate new abilities. We can see Link has followed Twilight Princess' model... But has Link ever used that Super Triforce move? It doesn't seem like anything about his moveset has been revealed to have changed. It seems likely there will be a change... But saying anything at this point is merely speculation. As likely as it may be...

This is the sole reason Sheik still has a chance, and even if Zelda does have her Twilight Princess model we can't know for sure until they confirm/nullify the Sheik claims.

If I read that correctly, you're saying that we can't assume that the characters in Brawl will be 100% consistent with their game of origin as is made evident by moves and abilities already revealed in the game that have never appeared in a Zelda game.

While I agree that nothing is certain, I suspect that something obviously contrary to a character (like giving TP Zelda the ability to transform into Sheik) would be rejected outright by the Smash Team. Then again, we don't know if the TP version of Zelda will be used.

Well... It would be nice for Zelda to have some origionality. Her old moveset is poor, thus why the semi-broken Sheik was raised on a pedestal and Zelda became one of the least popular. However, Midna may have ten times more importance in her respective game but how to utilize her moves is difficult to think of. That massive shadow hammer, for example, would need serious lag to equal it's big possible damage. Midna will be in there somewhere - as a character we can't be sure. I'm not against her, I just have my doubts. If she is in she ma end up like a floaty bowser - which is a fate worse than death in Super Smash Bros.

Interesting point, but it really depends on what version of Midna they use. I could see them using the humanoid Twili version of Midna revealed at the conclusion of TP. She could easily be included as a clone of Zelda (if they get pressed for time) with Zelda having a moveset entirely of light magic moves and Twili Midna having dark magic. Just a thought.

Remember that Tera from Wind Waker was also a child (if I'm off on this kill me). And, as I've stated already, there are only two Zeldas you can really base her off of. One of them being made after 'Melee. Although he's a seperate character, Fox seems to have incorporated his 'Command and 64 attributes. This could mean all characters will follow suit. Fox is the only character that has changed who is currently confirmed, as all the others are either new to the series (Pit, Wario, Metaknight) or are such staples they haven't changed since 'Melee (Pikachu, Mario, Kirby).

Sorry, I spelled that wrong. It's actually "Tetra" and yes she is a young incarnation of Zelda.

As for which characters will get a major revision like Fox, I suspect Zelda and Ganondorf will be revamped to reflect their role in TP, Young Link will be remodeled to refelct his Wind Waker appearance and Falco (if he returns) will get an Assault/Command makeover.

To conclude, you really do have a point, but there are counter-points. All of this is speculation, and I hate waiting for the facts, but maybe that is the only thing we can do right now to resolve things. If a new character is confirmed from the old games maybe we can study their changes from 'Melee to determine how Zelda may develop...

I couldn't agree more, we need a new Brawl trailer. Still, a little harmless speculation can help to pass the time until Sakurai decides to emerge from his bunker.

Edit: I think I understand what you're saying OysterMeister, but given how much the Zeldas vary in abilities I'm not sure what a moveset consisting of all their attacks would consist of.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, now that you mention it... Link in Smash Bros also uses two moves (his Uair and Dair) directly from Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link. The "ending blow" as TP now calls it, makes no appearance in Oot, yet Link in Smash Bros has it. There.

That's true. However that doesn't mean OoT couldn't do those moves... It would be kinda stupid I think to just ignore these 2 set moves and make up 2 new ones for the sake of representing OoT to the max.

Also, Link in AoL had no bombs or bows or boomerang, but Link in Smash Bros has them as well as some AoL moves. Because in smash bros Link is a hodge-podge of all previous appearances designed to represent the whole.

Actually, Link HAS all these items in AoL. The Bow and the Bombs can be bought in the village's store and the Boomerang you can get by trading it in for the Hookshot by some NPC character in the beach where you get your sword.

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that I believe the same can be applied to Zelda. She doesn't have to be limited ONLY to moves that she does in every appearance, that was never my point. My point was that she'll probably be given moves from many of her various appearances so that she can better represent the whole.

Yes, but most of Zelda's moves came from OoT. Din's Fire, Nayru's Love and Faore's Wind all made their debut in OoT just as Sheik. Heck, Sheik alone only explains that the Zelda cast is based from OoT.

I still strongly believe Sheik will NOT return.

 

[Deleted member]

True, with Sheik gone Zelda would have to be improved drastically. However, even if by some cruel twist of fate Sheik did return (*shudders at the thought*) she would surely be nerfed into the next century. Either way, the days of unskilled players using Sheik's unfairly overpowered moveset as a crutch will surely come to an end.

Sheik certainly needs some nerfing. He's way over-powered in the PAL version, while everyone else is slightly nerfed. This is why he has climbed the tier list... Maybe the developers forgot about him? He's not really that important. 'Pretty forgettable to be honest. What I see happening, possibly, is Sheik being made into a seperate character.

If I read that correctly, you're saying that we can't assume that the characters in Brawl will be 100% consistent with their game of origin as is made evident by moves and abilities already revealed in the game that have never appeared in a Zelda game.

While I agree that nothing is certain, I suspect that something obviously contrary to a character (like giving TP Zelda the ability to transform into Sheik) would be rejected outright by the Smash Team. Then again, we don't know if the TP version of Zelda will be used.

Like I stated previously, there's a possibility of taking Sheik and making him into a seperate character. Although it's not like Zelda will attain a TP-only moveset. The Smash team may use the Twilight Princess models but that doesn't mean they'll use the Twilight Princess abilities. As is evident with Fox, but not really anyone else. He's changed at least a little bit... We haven't seen enough of him really, all we know is that he now holds his gun at all times.

Again, most non-staple characters only appeared first in 'Melee and any that returned from the origional game were stuck with their "classic" attire. So we have no idea how it will effect their moveset, only when we see a demonstration of an updated character can we judge the importance of costume at all.

Interesting point, but it really depends on what version of Midna they use. I could see them using the humanoid Twili version of Midna revealed at the conclusion of TP. She could easily be included as a clone of Zelda (if they get pressed for time) with Zelda having a moveset entirely of light magic moves and Twili Midna having dark magic. Just a thought.

Hm... That could work, but wouldn't that be sort of a spoiler for the game? She'd play like a female Ganondorf if she was in as a Zelda clone.

Sorry, I spelled that wrong. It's actually "Tetra" and yes she is a young incarnation of Zelda.

As for which characters will get a major revision like Fox, I suspect Zelda and Ganondorf will be revamped to reflect their role in TP, Young Link will be remodeled to refelct his Wind Waker appearance and Falco (if he returns) will get an Assault/Command makeover.

Yeah. That sounds about right... There aren't too many who have changed, or need changing, since the last game. StarFox characters seem to change all the time now. The Zelda franchise also usually re-invents itself every game, but there is usually only one game or two every console.

I couldn't agree more, we need a new Brawl trailer. Still, a little harmless speculation can help to pass the time until Sakurai decides to emerge from his bunker.

Indeed. People may argue against this, but there is already a lot of evidence out there. Even if it is scarce and rare at that. Everyone's analyzed everything released to a tea, and have doe for a long time, so we need some new information and some clues as to how the game works. We're already five months into "2007", we should be getting constant updates. It seems that we're all being kept in the dark to build hype for the game...

 

[Wiseguy]

That's true. However that doesn't mean OoT couldn't do those moves... It would be kinda stupid I think to just ignore these 2 set moves and make up 2 new ones for the sake of representing OoT to the max.

Actually, Link HAS all these items in AoL. The Bow and the Bombs can be bought in the village's store and the Boomerang you can get by trading it in for the Hookshot by some NPC character in the beach where you get your sword.

Yes, but most of Zelda's moves came from OoT. Din's Fire, Nayru's Love and Faore's Wind all made their debut in OoT just as Sheik. Heck, Sheik alone only explains that the Zelda cast is based from OoT.

I still strongly believe Sheik will NOT return.

You are exactly right. I couldn't agree more.

Sheik certainly needs some nerfing. He's way over-powered in the PAL version, while everyone else is slightly nerfed. This is why he has climbed the tier list... Maybe the developers forgot about him? He's not really that important. 'Pretty forgettable to be honest. What I see happening, possibly, is Sheik being made into a seperate character.

But why is Sheik important enough to be included in Brawl? She only appeared on one game, as Zelda's alter ego. Her short, but memorable role was enough for her to be included in one Smash Bros, but two would be stretching it. Including Sheik would undoubtably be at the expence of a more worthy character, so I just don't see it happening.

Like I stated previously, there's a possibility of taking Sheik and making him into a seperate character. Although it's not like Zelda will attain a TP-only moveset. The Smash team may use the Twilight Princess models but that doesn't mean they'll use the Twilight Princess abilities. As is evident with Fox, but not really anyone else. He's changed at least a little bit... We haven't seen enough of him really, all we know is that he now holds his gun at all times.

Again, most non-staple characters only appeared first in 'Melee and any that returned from the origional game were stuck with their "classic" attire. So we have no idea how it will effect their moveset, only when we see a demonstration of an updated character can we judge the importance of costume at all.

But remember, although Fox got a new look he was still the same Fox from all his previous games - so there was no reason to give hime a completly new moveset (which custom designed for Smash Bros). TP Zelda, on the other hand, is a completly separate individual who (unlike TP Link) has completly different abilities. I think a completely new moveset (whether based on TP or completly made up) is what we can expect.

Hm... That could work, but wouldn't that be sort of a spoiler for the game? She'd play like a female Ganondorf if she was in as a Zelda clone.

It wouldn't spoil the game anymore than knowing that Sheik/Zelda are the same person before playing OoT (which actuallly happened to me).

As for the "female Ganondorf" thing... could you clarify what you mean?

Yeah. That sounds about right... There aren't too many who have changed, or need changing, since the last game. StarFox characters seem to change all the time now. The Zelda franchise also usually re-invents itself every game, but there is usually only one game or two every console.

Agreed.

Indeed. People may argue against this, but there is already a lot of evidence out there. Even if it is scarce and rare at that. Everyone's analyzed everything released to a tea, and have doe for a long time, so we need some new information and some clues as to how the game works. We're already five months into "2007", we should be getting constant updates. It seems that we're all being kept in the dark to build hype for the game...

I completly agree. I'll keep my fingers crossed that we see a new trailer soon.

Spoiler: I know the only new charcater who will be shown in the next trailer:

Spoiler

Donkey Kong.

 

[Deleted member]

But why is Sheik important enough to be included in Brawl? She only appeared on one game, as Zelda's alter ego. Her short, but memorable role was enough for her to be included in one Smash Bros, but two would be stretching it. Including Sheik would undoubtably be at the expence of a more worthy character, so I just don't see it happening.

Well, if Sheik does in fact return he'll have to be either a seperate character or break Zelda's character in half between her TP and OOT form. Maybe Zelda will have two different characters to include Sheik? That'd be really strange, though, and is very unlikely. I don't like Sheik any further than his attire, which I think is pretty interesting. His moveset's broken.

But remember, although Fox got a new look he was still the same Fox from all his previous games - so there was no reason to give hime a completly new moveset (which custom designed for Smash Bros). TP Zelda, on the other hand, is a completly separate individual who (unlike TP Link) has completly different abilities. I think a completely new moveset (whether based on TP or completly made up) is what we can expect.

Again, the reason Fox had an origional moveset was because in the origional game he didn't have any games except StarFox 64 out. He's changed now because of Adventure/Assault/Command coming out between 'Melee and 'Brawl. Zelda is different, she was only in 'Melee and has only been in TP since. They may go the same way as Link, but we can't tell. I can see a chance of Sheik coming in along with some form of OOT Zelda. Only time will tell, and Sheik is a contender.

It wouldn't spoil the game anymore than knowing that Sheik/Zelda are the same person before playing OoT (which actuallly happened to me).

As for the "female Ganondorf" thing... could you clarify what you mean?

I mean as in Ganondorf was just a stronger, darker version of Captain Falcon. I'd think Midna would undertake the same transformation as Ganondorf did.

I completly agree. I'll keep my fingers crossed that we see a new trailer soon.

Spoiler: I know the only new charcater who will be shown in the next trailer:

Spoiler

Donkey Kong.

Haha... I'm hoping they reveal a few characters over the next couple 'months. We've certainly waited long enough.

Spoiler

Donkey Kong

won't reveal anything about the game. He'll still have his

Spoiler

tie attire

.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well, if Sheik does in fact return he'll have to be either a seperate character or break Zelda's character in half between her TP and OOT form. Maybe Zelda will have two different characters to include Sheik? That'd be really strange, though, and is very unlikely. I don't like Sheik any further than his attire, which I think is pretty interesting. His moveset's broken.

Being a playable charcater in Smash Bros. is the greatest honor that can be bestowed on a videogame character and, no matter how you slice it, Sheik is unworthy.

As a Zelda character, she is among the most insignificant. With only one game cameo under her belt (which is almost a decade old now, I might add) she is tied with Link's uncle in ALttP in terms of importance in the series. Her spot on the roster should rightfully go to a character from a more recent Zelda game.

In terms of having an interesting moveset, I think Sheik is no longer anything special. Zero Suit Samus' attacks are nearly identical to Sheik's, so why include Sheik at all? Why waiste time on this outdated and redundant character when there are countless other potential newcomers who are far more unique and deserving?

As for Sheik's broken moveset, this is a reason why she should axed with extreme prejudice. As the character of choice for spammers, Sheik destroys all the skill and balance in tournaments and friendly grudge matches. Super Smash Bros. will be infinitly more fun when Sheik is cut.

Again, the reason Fox had an origional moveset was because in the origional game he didn't have any games except StarFox 64 out. He's changed now because of Adventure/Assault/Command coming out between 'Melee and 'Brawl. Zelda is different, she was only in 'Melee and has only been in TP since. They may go the same way as Link, but we can't tell. I can see a chance of Sheik coming in along with some form of OOT Zelda. Only time will tell, and Sheik is a contender.

To be fair, we don't know how drastically Fox has been altered (aside from his appearance) so its a little early to start drawing corelations with other characters.

Actually, since Melee there have been numerous Zeldas (Windwaker, Four Swords, Minish Cap and Twilight Princess) and they have all been separate individuals. Realistically, we can only expect one of them to get in and the most recent one (Twilight Princess) seems like the logical choice - given the inclusion of TP Link.

 

[Deleted member]

Being a playable charcater in Smash Bros. is the greatest honor that can be bestowed on a videogame character and, no matter how you slice it, Sheik is unworthy.

As a Zelda character, she is among the most insignificant. With only one game cameo under her belt (which is almost a decade old now, I might add) she is tied with Link's uncle in ALttP in terms of importance in the series. Her spot on the roster should rightfully go to a character from a more recent Zelda game.

In terms of having an interesting moveset, I think Sheik is no longer anything special. Zero Suit Samus' attacks are nearly identical to Sheik's, so why include Sheik at all? Why waiste time on this outdated and redundant character when there are countless other potential newcomers who are far more unique and deserving?

As for Sheik's broken moveset, this is a reason why she should axed with extreme prejudice. As the character of choice for spammers, Sheik destroys all the skill and balance in tournaments and friendly grudge matches. Super Smash Bros. will be infinitly more fun when Sheik is cut.

Yaa, as I said I'm not for Sheik more than most other characters. There is a small likelihood of him being in, but that's pretty small. It is, however, possible, and his chances are greatly enhanced by already being in a SSB game, having a developed moveset and a following in the 'Smash world. I'm not so sure about how important he is, without him Zelda would indeed have been cast aside as useless in 'Melee. Now she may have a good moveset, if she uses her TP model and uses her TP moves primarily, Sheik would really not be needed.

However, this doesn't mean Sheik won't appear. His chances are irrefutable. He's not a clone, he's not un-popular and he's not low tier. What is going against him is Zelda... Which seems almost ridiculous, as he let Zelda get a glimpse of the high tiers. I still don't want him in.

Actually, since Melee there have been numerous Zeldas (Windwaker, Four Swords, Minish Cap and Twilight Princess) and they have all been separte individuals. Realistically, we can only expect one of them to get in and the most recent one (Twilight Princess) seems like the logical choice - given the inclusion of TP Link.

Well, in-between OOT and Twilight Princess there were no Adult Links, who is not as important in the Zelda world as he is the 'Smash world. Sort of odd, but yeah, between SSB and 'Melee there were no Adult Links shown. In the origional there wasn't a Young Link, and Young Link was made a clone of Adult Link, so he's the less important here anyway. So... Link couldn't change. The same thing with Zelda, either that or her version was 2D. Don't forget, 'Brawl was advertised alongside the Wii at E3 last year so they were probably asked to put a TP character in to help sales.

 

[OysterMeister]

Actually, Link HAS all these items in AoL. The Bow and the Bombs can be bought in the village's store and the Boomerang you can get by trading it in for the Hookshot by some NPC character in the beach where you get your sword.

Um, no he doesn't. Seriously, you're thinking of some other game. Perhaps Link's Awakening? But I can tell you as fact that Link had no boomerang, bombs, or bow in Adventure of Link. Seriously, look it up. He had some crazy level-up system and magic instead. For the record, he didn't have a hookshot either, so I don't know where you pulled that from.

Yes, but most of Zelda's moves came from OoT. Din's Fire, Nayru's Love and Faore's Wind all made their debut in OoT just as Sheik. Heck, Sheik alone only explains that the Zelda cast is based from OoT.

I still strongly believe Sheik will NOT return.

My answer to this is that at the time of Melee's release Zelda didn't really have any in-game examples of moves to use. I mean, what move would you have given her from an earlier game in the series? Is there one?
Nah, I think that Oot was all they really had to go on, so they drew from it really heavily. Now that Zelda's had a chance to develop more as a character, I exect to see here moveset change, but I don't expect them to scrap the old one completely, as you seem to be suggesting with the whole "TP Zelda can't do what Oot Zelda did" argument.
I mean, come on. Right now Zelda has three magical attacks based of the three gods of the triforce. That's about as good as magic weilding from the Zelda series can get. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

 

[Saimdusan]

Having Midna in Twili form would be more of a spoiler than Zelda/Sheik because OOT came out years before SSBM.

 

[Wiseguy]

Having Midna in Twili form would be more of a spoiler than Zelda/Sheik because OOT came out years before SSBM.

By the time Brawl is released (assuming its this fall), it will have been roughly a year since TP's release. Seems like enough time will have passed that the Smash team can pay proper tribute to one of the finest game endings in history.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh... Finest game endings in history? Seemed like a lot of grunting by ugly people to me.

 

[Wiseguy]

Eh... Finest game endings in history? Seemed like a lot of grunting by ugly people to me.

Come again? Are we talking about the same game?

 

[Deleted member]

Ya. There was way too much straight dialogue for a game transitioned from scene to scene by boxes of text.