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Will Alternating Throws be banned in tournament play?!?!?!

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
535
Location
Fayetteville, NC
There are three key rules you should consider when deciding to ban anything in a video game. I'm going to go through each one and show how difficult it would be to ban alternating throws if the decision was ever made:

1) Enforceable:

This means that the ban should be easy to enforce. Players could accidentally press the throw button at the right time and do an alternate throw. It isn't exactly the players fault since he didn't intend to do it, so should we punish him? How many accidents are we going to allow, and who will be the judge of whether it was an accident or not? Will we have referees watch every single match involving the IC's? What if we don't have enough referees to accommodate for the number of IC matches being played? Do we force players to stop the game and wait for a referee, which will end up sacrificing valuable tournament time? Do we honestly want a referees biases to decide the punishment? What if one referee punishes someone for doing an alternating throw once while another referee punishes someone after they do alternating throws 5 times? Are there going to be set degrees of punishment for each violation? What if a player uses alternating throws when a referee isn't present, and his opponent complains later on, do we punish that player from word of mouth from another player? As you can see there is a lot to consider when trying to enforce a ban like this.

2) Discrete:

This means that the ban should be clearly defined. How many alternating throws is a player allowed to do? Are they even allowed to do any at all? What if they mix and match their alternating throws, is there a set number of each throw you can do? What if a player throws in a completely different CG in between each alternating throw, does it still count? Say if someone does an alternating Fthrow into a squall hammer CG, technically they're only doing one alternating throw each time, is that acceptable? Are we just going to put a ban on CG's altogether? If so then what constitutes as a CG? Is there going to be a set time limit or damage limit to alternating throws? Say if we had a time limit, but one player does 50% while the other player does 30% during the same time span, is that fair? If there's a damage limit then would it matter at what percent your opponent started at? Are we still allowed to do KO moves out of an alternating throw? As you can see, the game basically devolves into who can play as closely to breaking the law without actually breaking it.

3) Warranted:

This means that the ban is actually worth banning. Seriously the IC's aren't even the best in the game, they're hardly even top tier even with those throws. They have some pretty bad match-ups against characters who can space them out well. They don't particularly dominate many characters outside of the ones who have really laggy attacks making shield grabbing easier. They aren't anywhere near ST Akuma level brokenness where all their match-ups are 9/1 against everyone. We allowed wobbling in Melee which was a whole lot easier than alternating throws, so whats wrong with allowing this infinite, which happens to be a crap load harder to pull off?
 

brawlpwnge

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
9
It is pretty cheap if they spam it. Although it shouldnt be banned the infinite ice combo should..
 

AXE 09

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
3,825
Location
Avondale, AZ
i could understand why tournaments would ban alternating throws, but i think all of the other chaingrabs that the IC's have should still be in. kinda like the way they some tourneys banned wobbling in melee, but not any of the other chaingrabs.

i can see why tourneys would ban it, but i don't think it should be banned. like most of the people here agree on, it shouldn't be banned because people took time and practiced hard to master it
 

distr0ia

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
160
Location
St. Clair Shores, MI
the amount of hard work and practice put into mastering a specific technique has no relevance whatsoever regarding whether or not said technique is utterly broken for tournament play
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
Here's two nice little articles you might want to read.
What should be banned
Scrub
thanks for posting those, btw.

"The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics."
I don't play any IC that can do the infinite cg, but if the IC can do a chaingrab that completely dominates the game, it cannot be stopped mid-exectution, it CAN be perfected, and it WILL end in a kill everytime it's used, then I think that's enough to ban it from tournament play.

"It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game."
If the cg (that i described above) is NOT banned from tournament play, then the IC should be banned as a character.

If not, then I'm going to quit any match against IC, quit playing olimar and lucario, and quit this game entirely.
 

billythegoat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
212
Well I guess the question is then, is it worth it even to learn this technique if it is just going to get banned?
 

Dr Pepper

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
14
It seems to me that banning the ice climbers' chaingrabs is an unenforceable rule; the only way to ban it would be to just ban the ice climbers altogether. I doubt it will happen, though.
 

Dizzynecro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
446
It only takes one of you 3 stock <sarcasm>and snakes fsmash kills at like 30% so lets ban that too, its a whole lot easier to pull off.</sarcacsm>
Its not that big of a deal people banning it would be stupid.
thanks for posting those, btw.


If the cg (that i described above) is NOT banned from tournament play, then the IC should be banned as a character.

If not, then I'm going to quit any match against IC, quit playing olimar and lucario, and quit this game entirely.
Your loss see ya.
 

samai

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
107
Location
Maine
I am going to agree with whoever said it should not be banned unless all tournaments are won by Iceclimbers but banning Ice Climbers is the worst choice anyone could make and slightly off topic what is wobbling:confused:
 

Dr Pepper

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
14
The Wobble was a grab glitch in Melee with the ICs that was basically auto-kill. Some people banned it from tournaments, I think.

I don't play any IC that can do the infinite cg, but if the IC can do a chaingrab that completely dominates the game, it cannot be stopped mid-exectution, it CAN be perfected, and it WILL end in a kill everytime it's used, then I think that's enough to ban it from tournament play.
It's not going to dominate the game at all. Do you see the Ice Climbers at the top of any tier lists?
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Well I guess the question is then, is it worth it even to learn this technique if it is just going to get banned?
YES


Things aren't banned by people (well, smart people) unless there is evidence to show they should be banned.

So if you can pick up the ice climbers and win every match with ease off of this one tactic, DO IT! You'll win a few tournaments and get some serious dough. When it is banned, you'll move on.


More likely though, you'll find that all this fear and hate comes from paranoia, like with wobbling. People complained about how wobbling was broken and soooooooo good, yet no one ever went and won large tournaments by wobbling. In fact, the only change wobbling made to the game was at lower levels of play! Chu Dat and Wobbles were the only two ICs that were able to do well, and they did well with or without it.

Chances are it'll just be a good technique they have, nothing more. There will be some matches dictated by it completely (like, say, Ganon vs. Ice Climbers; maybe ICs can easily grab Ganon, thus making the matchup heavily in their favor?), but this is no different than Sheik doing well against many of the chain grabbable characters in Melee.

Really though... ipck it up. abuse it. I probably won't because I know it won't win tournaments.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
If one was to ban the IC's chaingrabs, not only would that be incredibly difficult to regulate and enforce, but why stop at the IC's chaingrab? What about every other "broken" attack or tactic in the game? To name a few...

•GaW's turtle... If the GaW player is good, they will be amazing at RARing, and landing that turtle. Sure that's not GaW's only viable attack or strat, but it's absolutely a must... it's amazing.

•Falco's chaingrab / laser lock. May as well ban these too...

•Snake is so broken, notably his f-smash... It KOs at ridiculously low percentages. His u-tilt is also very powerful, KOing around 100%, and it has such unrealistic range. I could go on and on about Snake.

•May as well rule out any chaingrab that can be executed in the game. Like Dedede's and so on...

What would Brawl be like without everything I've listed above? Personally, I would never ask to have any of this banned, I believe that if you can pull it off and win, you deserved it. I listed as many things as I could think of that people (scrubs) consider "broken."

In the end, to those of you who detest the IC's chaingrabs, a word of advice... Don't get grabbed. Yes, it's that easy. Improve your game.

People usually consider any strategy that they can't overcome to be broken. So, one could whine that something is broken, and continue to do so, then one day said individual could discover a counter-strategy... Suddenly, the individual no longer considers the tactic to be "broken."

Funny huh?
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
Well... Orca those examples aren't quite the same, but basically if you ban ICs infinite chain grab then you have to ban alternating grabs all together, because you can't really police it anyways, we simple don't have enough interest to generate judges.

EDIT: /agree with Overswarm
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Well... Orca those examples aren't quite the same, but basically if you ban ICs infinite chain grab then you have to ban alternating grabs all together, because you can't really police it anyways, we simple don't have enough interest to generate judges.

EDIT: /agree with Overswarm
Yeah, that's kind of the point I made. I agree with overswarm as well, if it works.. and you're good at it, use it! :D
 

RushHour1049

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13
I have yet to see any 0-death ICCG performed against a HUMAN OPPONENT. And I've looked all over youtube for a video of one.

Also, I've tried using the ICCG against my friends myself, but I kept getting gimped by the IC's sucky recovery, nana dying, and just getting the timing wrong and ending up with a 6% damage throw. The more I play the ice climbers the more I am convinced that their grabs are MEANT to be really good if they are together.

Definitely will not be banned at this rate.
 

sesshomaru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2004
Messages
303
Location
Inwood, WV
Banning the IC's as a whole is dumb, as stated it would just lead to a "whats next" collapse. Both cases are strong however. I dominate you with some terrible character only to lose by a technical skill. Other side, I CG you to death and win, doesn't matter how the IC's are victory dancing on the screen, win. Which one's right? Well IMO I would choose the latter, I WANT to say if you can't beat me with out inescapable combos, you can't win. Sadly (for me) this is not the case but that shows that I don't have that absolute desire to win, and THAT is whats been under discussion for years. If you want to outplay someone get good and do it, if you want to win kill their character with your characters moves.
 

AREL0E

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
105
Location
Bay Area
The topic is about banning their alternate throws. To me I do not think it will be banned but limited.

For Example, lets look at Wobbles, the insane, IC user known for his "wobbling"

At NCT2 I was watching most of his matches and noticed that once he grabbed someone he had a jab tilt infinite going. Looking around people did not seem to care because they were watching other matches.

It wasn't until a couple of months later when the smash community decidedly to limit "wobbling" to 3 seconds, which became standard rule set for tournaments.

Watch the original desynch video featuring NEAL, he stated that the infinite is cheap, therefore he will not show you how it is done.

But on the other hand, In games such as MVC2, KOF, SF, SC, Tekken.
There are very few banned characters, and most infinites are all fair play.

IE: i was at a tournament for MVC2 way back when, I was playing a match against a Magneto, god tier yes. But the only defense was not to get caught. Watch almost all Marvel videos they contain at least one infinite. Infinites are the staple of this game, the users choose when they want to stop it.

When they decided to limit the "wobbles" it was up to most of the melee IC mains to choose not to use it. What it comes down to is that, If we continue to use IC as our mains we have to chose whether we should limit ourselves or allow the infinite to judge our gamestyle.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
I don't have enough experience in this game, and the game has not been developed enough by our community to know for sure how grabs are going to be done, it seems to me like its HARDER to grab in brawl than in melee, but this infinite is definitely less escapable than wobbles if opponents have no control over DI during the throws.

Once people practice and discover all the opportunities they really do have for grabs they just might be as broken as people think, with the ease of powershielding and such there may be more openings than we even see right now.

To be good at this game, it will be similar to melee, it takes AT LEAST a year in melee of playing and learning match ups, watching vids and studying to really understand your match ups, once you understood your match up in melee, you pretty much knew when it was safe to grab or if you should choose another option, this game will be the same I would wager in that its going to take time, practice, and dedication to really start seeing those openings and capitalizing on them as you should and getting a stock from an infinite grab. Anyways my advice to any of you who are serious about tournament play is to learn and abuse this infinite until it is indeed banned, because even if it is it will have caused the people you play with to learn to avoid grabs, which helps them, also it will have taught you your openings for when you have to use other grab combos.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
is it banned now... no. can you use it now... yes. my question is if it is a move that was programed into the game, why not use it. elevate your game and stop having the scrub mentality. thats all there is to it. if it does indeed get banned, than by that point you should have made a good sum of money wiining tourneys where it wasnt banned, and you should also be good enuff to play at least competantly w/o it anyway. theres no way im gonna lose by two stocks to a guy that does four infinites in a row, and than say "no infinites" and than 4 stock the guy... thats just no gonna happen. so thats basically all there is to it, use it and win if you can or dont use it and win if you can, but if you are playing to win..... you should probably use it
 
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