Why Stages Deserve To Be Banned (And Why You Shouldn't Ban Pokemon Stadium)

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What's the value of a stage in Super Smash Bros? What purpose does it serve? Well, as far as I can see it, from the perspective of a competitive ruleset, the goal is simple: uphold the depth of the game. We want the better player to win, and with more depth comes a higher skill ceiling, and more room towards the top.

The purpose of a competitive ruleset is to test the skill of the player in the game. However, if an element of the game makes testing this either impossible (due to randomness messing with the test results, such as on Warioware in Brawl) or trivial (due to the skill ceiling being phenomenally low, such as on Temple), then clearly the ruleset has failed.

But the flipside to depth when dealing with stages is that forcing players to adapt to different environments and different play states increases depth, and increases the number of things they have to know. The way the game is played is different on Final Destination compared to the way the game is played on Battlefield or Smashville, and players need to be able to adapt to that.

That word, adaptation, is the key here. Because when the adaptation to a stage leads to a degenerate state (say, the optimal strategy is trivial to execute, such as circle camping), then we have a problem. When it doesn't, it's up to us to figure out how to play on it.

For example.

• Temple Hyrule is the prime example of a degenerate state. A player adapting optimally to the stage might as well just not pick anyone other than Sonic or Fox, because the stage has a clear optimal strategy that is virtually skill-free. Here's a good metric - I am not a top player. Would I have a decent chance of beating, say, Mew2King on that stage if he didn't switch characters to abuse the optimal strategy? If the answer to that is anywhere near "yes", then we have a problem.
• Port Town Aero Dive is another great example. A player adapting optimally to the stage will still need to know how to play, but there are many mechanics thereon that make small mistakes incredibly unforgiving. Throwing your opponent into the path of the moving cars is a degenerate strategy. Couple this with the randomizing factor of one segment where you cannot see the cars coming more than a second in advance, and the stage is very bad for testing a player's skill.
  
• Pokemon Stadium 2 is the prime example of a stage that encourages player adaptation without degenerate game states. A player adapting optimally to the stage still needs to be really, really good at this game. They need all the same skills they need on any other stage, plus they have to understand how to fight in a low-gravity state, plus they need to know how lowered traction affects their character, plus they need to figure out how to maneuver around the rollers. The stage does nothing to take away from the game's depth - instead, what it does is increase it. Another simple rule of thumb - would you feel like you have a better shot against a better player on that stage than on, say, Smashville? If not, there's probably not an issue with the stage. And such is the case with Pokemon Stadium 2. It's a prime example of why "different" does not mean "banworthy".

You really can pare the valid reasons to ban a stage down to "Degerenate gameplay states" and "randomness". This cuts out basically everything that could interfere with legitimate competition. The problem is, many people seem to think that stages that move interfere with legitimate competition. That stages with hazards necessarily interfere with legitimate competition. That stages with odd layouts necessarily interfere with legitimate competition. That stages which occasionally break up the neutral necessarily interfere with legitimate competition. That stages which change the physics of your character temporarily are inherently disruptive to competitive play. This simply is not the case. We cannot immediately disregard any stage just because it's weird and different, unless we can find some degenerate or broken strategy, or some significant randomizing factor.

On a more subjective note, this difference and weirdness is large part of what makes Smash so damn cool. The fact that you can fight on a flat arena, or a tower of platforms, or on a moving tour of Delfino Island, or on the wing of a plane that's tilting up and down, or through the midst of a raging space battle on constantly shifting ground, or on a nearly boxed-in arena surrounded by pipes and solid blocks. Whether or not any of those things mess with competition needs to be tested (obviously, some of them listed do not pass muster - Pilotwings in particular is really broken), but reducing the game to a handful of mostly-samey flat+plats takes a lot of the spirit out of the game for me. And more importantly, there are really good, non-arbitrary reasons to consider stages that you often wouldn't.


TL;DR: If your ruleset doesn't have PS2 legal you might be bad at ruleset design.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think the main problem people have with PS2 is that the Electric transformation actively discourages fighting. You've hit your opponent off stage, what do you do now? Go for a gimp? Try to cover their recovery options? No, you go back to the center of the stage, because anything else is completely unsafe. Not to mention that it removes the possibility of a ledge getup attack or a normal ledge getup, since both of them will just force you back off the stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think the main problem people have with PS2 is that the Electric transformation actively discourages fighting. You've hit your opponent off stage, what do you do now? Go for a gimp? Try to cover their recovery options? No, you go back to the center of the stage, because anything else is completely unsafe. Not to mention that it removes the possibility of a ledge getup attack or a normal ledge getup, since both of them will just force you back off the stage.

First of all, a segment of a stage that discourages fighting is nothing new. See also: half the transformations on Pokemon Stadium 1, several on Delfino, Wuhu, and Skyloft. It's not degenerate or random; if you knock your opponent offstage, you get the very strong temporary positional advantage of the middle - it is a strong position. However, nothing is stopping you from going after your opponent offstage. You can't trap their ledge options very well, but what you can do is ledge trump for free. The new ledge mechanics actually open up a lot more aggressive options on that segment.

And more in keeping with the thread, is it degenerate? Is it really a problem that, for 30 seconds (and it is exceedingly unlikely that it hits the same transformation more than once per game), the stage forces you to back off and play a little campy? I don't think so. I mean, we don't even know if the optimal strategy there is "stay in the middle". It might be for some matchups. For others? If I knock my opponent off with ZSS, you can bet that I'm going to be trying to abuse how the stage encourages ledge trumping. And yeah, you can't use two of your getup options... But most ledge traps aren't going to work very well either, because you can't sit there and throw out smashes - you'll just end up offstage. But either way, it's clearly not broken or degenerate, and one transformation of a stage encouraging stalling doesn't make for a bad stage. Pokemon Stadium 1 was legal in Brawl and Melee and it had two transformations that made approaching almost suicidal.

 

[Pazx]

Yes to all.

/subscribes to thread

 

[Raijinken]

I agree with most of this, but...

The machines on Port Town are too infrequent to centralize the strategy around, much like those in Mute City. They're absurdly powerful, but the threat to the throwing player is just as great if they misstep, making them more akin to a walkoff in terms of the 50/50 they provide. I don't think Port Town should be legalized (specifically because of the no-warning transition), but I don't think throwing players into a hazard is overly centralizing unless it's a permanent hazard (i.e. Great Cave's Danger Zones, though it has its own issues obviously). Skyloft's cliffs, Norfair's lava, Brinstar's acid, et cetera are all to temporary to be centralizing, in my opinion (though the frequency of hazards in Kalos convinces me more that it should be scratched from my already liberal list).

But yeah, good post.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm pretty stage conservative but I have a hard time banning PS2 from a ruleset. Not that I actually run events. People who read smashboards and people who run events are two pretty disjoint sets sometimes. I think Kongo Jungle warrants banning more than PS2.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm pretty stage conservative but I have a hard time banning PS2 from a ruleset. Not that I actually run events. People who read smashboards and people who run events are two pretty disjoint sets sometimes. I think Kongo Jungle warrants banning more than PS2.

Halberd warrants banning more than PS2. It's a really, really good stage.

 

[popsofctown]

Halberd warrants banning more than PS2. It's a really, really good stage.

I already indicated I'm stage conservative, so that means I pray for a cruise missile to destroy Halberd before eating my meals.

 

[digiholic]

I think the main problem people have with PS2 is that the Electric transformation actively discourages fighting. You've hit your opponent off stage, what do you do now? Go for a gimp? Try to cover their recovery options? No, you go back to the center of the stage, because anything else is completely unsafe. Not to mention that it removes the possibility of a ledge getup attack or a normal ledge getup, since both of them will just force you back off the stage.

The Rock transition of PS1 in Melee often lead to players simply standing still until it changes. I think having one bad transformation out of the bunch is forgivable.

 

[Raijinken]

The Rock transition of PS1 in Melee often lead to players simply standing still until it changes. I think having one bad transformation out of the bunch is forgivable.

Fire basically did the same thing if either player made it to the left-side of the tree quick enough.

 

[popsofctown]

The Rock transition of PS1 in Melee often lead to players simply standing still until it changes. I think having one bad transformation out of the bunch is forgivable.

Fire also. 'd

 

[mobilisq]

Why exactly does kongo jungle end up being banned anyway? It's symmetrical and moves at a fixed rate

 

[Octagon]

Why exactly does kongo jungle end up being banned anyway? It's symmetrical and moves at a fixed rate

Yeah i miss it, it was a great stage

 

[_glook]

Why exactly does kongo jungle end up being banned anyway? It's symmetrical and moves at a fixed rate

There was degenerate gameplay revolving around Peach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA2HOoOnAbk

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There was degenerate gameplay revolving around Peach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA2HOoOnAbk

That looks really matchup-specific and not particularly relevant in the modern metagame.

 

[mobilisq]

Yeah, that's ridiculous, but I don't think it would be an issue in this particular iteration. Just about everybody has good aerial mobility now, and you could just use the barrel to shoot up to and potentially cause damage anyway. Let's bring it back!

 

[Ulevo]

The problem with Pokemon Stadium 2 is the electrical transformation because it places characters in an unforgiving edge guard situation. The difference between this transformation and say, Pokemon Stadium 1 or some of Delfino's is that the opponent cannot 'opt out' of the match for a brief duration until the transformation passes. They're forced to play against the stage and the opponent, often times to a stock loss. This is why the stage should not be legal.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem with Pokemon Stadium 2 is the electrical transformation because it places characters in an unforgiving edge guard situation. The difference between this transformation and say, Pokemon Stadium 1 or some of Delfino's is that the opponent cannot 'opt out' of the match for a brief duration until the transformation passes. They're forced to play against the stage and the opponent, often times to a stock loss. This is why the stage should not be legal.

Care to explain what about it is degenerate or broken? Or show some evidence? Because I gotta tell you, I've played on that stage probably 50-100 times since this game came out, and so far, I haven't seen this "unforgiving edge guard situation" turn even a single match.

 

[Jaxas]

The problem with Pokemon Stadium 2 is the electrical transformation because it places characters in an unforgiving edge guard situation. The difference between this transformation and say, Pokemon Stadium 1 or some of Delfino's is that the opponent cannot 'opt out' of the match for a brief duration until the transformation passes. They're forced to play against the stage and the opponent, often times to a stock loss. This is why the stage should not be legal.

I feel like that's better than being able to "opt out" of a period of a match, but perhaps that's just me.

Anyways, edgeguarding is also difficult here because you can't position yourself to cover all their options as the treadmills move you; it does definitely heavily reward stage control though, and I'm of the opinion that that's a good thing.

 

[Ulevo]

The problem with it is the layout of the stage combined with the conveyor belts that push the player to the edge. Whoever has control of center stage, or the closest control to the center, dominates the neutral game during that transition because the conveyor belt constantly forces the player who doesn't have that control off to the ledge. While the player tries to fight the conveyor belt to reach center again, they have to fight the enemy player. This isn't trivial when you consider that the platform in the middle is both low and wide, meaning that if the player tries to reach center by jumping, the player who is controlling the center stage has complete control since the defending player can't attack or air dodge without hitting the platform. This problem is compounded further with characters who can zone heavily with disjoints or projectiles as well. On top of this certain get up options from the ledge, such as neutral get up or get up attack, are removed as safe options from the ledge thanks to the conveyor belts which pigeonholes you in to predictable recovery patterns that are easy to punish.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem with it is the layout of the stage combined with the conveyor belts that push the player to the edge. Whoever has control of center stage, or the closest control to the center, dominates the neutral game during that transition because the conveyor belt constantly forces the player who doesn't have that control off to the ledge. While the player tries to fight the conveyor belt to reach center again, they have to fight the enemy player. This isn't trivial when you consider that the platform in the middle is both low and wide, meaning that if the player tries to reach center by jumping, the player who is controlling the center stage has complete control since the defending player can't attack or air dodge without hitting the platform. This problem is compounded further with characters who can zone heavily with disjoints or projectiles as well. On top of this certain get up options from the ledge, such as neutral get up or get up attack, are removed as safe options from the ledge thanks to the conveyor belts which pigeonholes you in to predictable recovery patterns that are easy to punish.

Yep.

Now how does this play out in practice?

Well, half the time, both players end up fumbling around the conveyer belt, jostling for position and trying to land a ledge trump.
The other half the time, one player ends up zoning with projectiles while the other hangs out near the ledge.

In the former case, playing better than your opponent is rewarded, albeit not significantly more than on other stages.
In the latter case, one player is given a temporary positional advantage that is not particularly substantial (indeed, in many cases they'd be better off giving it up and going for ledge traps).

Seriously, how often have you played on this stage? It's not nearly the huge deal you think it is. God, this is almost as bad as the people claiming that every character in the game is broken on the air section in brawl (spoiler alert - they were all wrong).

 

[Ulevo]

I've played on it often enough to know that whoever controls centre stage has an unfair advantage during its transition exactly for the reasons I described.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I've played on it often enough to know that whoever controls centre stage has an unfair advantage during its transition exactly for the reasons I described.

"Unfair"? Being above Pikachu as Bowser is "unfair". Being stuck offstage as Little Mac is "unfair". This? This provides a weak positional benefit that goes away.

 

[Ulevo]

"Unfair"? Being above Pikachu as Bowser is "unfair". Being stuck offstage as Little Mac is "unfair". This? This provides a weak positional benefit that goes away.

Except that it isn't a weak positional benefit. It puts you in full control of centre stage and leads to edge guards that are hard to avoid.

Honestly I'm not arguing with you. I make a note not to. Anyone intelligent will be able to read what I've said, read what you've said, and make an assessment on their own.

 

[Depth_]

How long are the transitions on PS2? If the main concern is a transition, keep in mind that it is a transition. There are infamous transitions in Castle Siege and Delfino. Walk-Offs advocate degenerate play on those stages, but in a few minutes the stage changes and play becomes more traditional. The same thing (change) happens in PS2, but I don't see how having an advantage on a conveyor belt can promote degenerate play. It's a positional advantage similar to facing an decline on lylat while your opponent stands on bottom.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How long are the transitions on PS2? If the main concern is a transition, keep in mind that it is a transition. There are infamous transitions in Castle Siege and Delfino. Walk-Offs advocate degenerate play on those stages, but in a few minutes the stage changes and play becomes more traditional. The same thing (change) happens in PS2, but I don't see how having an advantage on a conveyor belt can promote degenerate play. It's a positional advantage similar to facing an incline on lylat while your opponent stands on top.

PS2's transformations last 30 seconds each, with the normal form lasting a full minute. The transformations also cycle such that each gets a turn before they repeat. Therefore any given transformation will be in play for 30 seconds out of every 6 minutes. Under 2S6M rules that means any transformation will appear no more than once, while in 3S8M rules one transformation will appear a second time if the game goes long enough.

 

[Jaxas]

Except that it isn't a weak positional benefit. It puts you in full control of centre stage and leads to edge guards that are hard to avoid.

You are correct, it is by no means a weak positional advantage. However if the player without stage control is simply waiting at the ledge, the player with stage control has to leave the area that is giving them the advantage to capitalize on it.

Now obviously this does not hold true if the opponent approaches the area with strong stage control (and it becomes a high-risk, high-reward scenario for most characters; if you can knock your opponent out of the stage control area, then hey look now you have it to abuse!), but there is counterplay.

Even if there wasn't real counterplay (looking at you, PS1 Rock/Fire areas), luckily it goes away on its own, adding "wait" as a type of counterplay to it.

Basically though, it's just standard stage control hyper-concentrated for 30 seconds; almost like a Stage Monado Art where whoever does better with it gets the advantage, but one player has the advantage of choosing for it to happen (by counterpicking to the stage).

Spoiler

And I don't blame you if my analogy doesn't make sense to you, I'm not the best at explaining sometimes

 

[Ulevo]

Just because a player leaves the center stage on to the conveyor belt to edge guard does not mean they suddenly lost their advantage. I specifically said anyone closest to the center has the edge, and it's true. Characters are more than able to edge guard a character that is on the ledge and trying to get back on without themselves being thrown off by the belt because they're not having to fight against the belt and their opponent. Floaty characters or characters with multiple jumps in particular have an easy time with this, though most characters can do it just fine.

30 seconds is a long time. The idea that this is transitional to me is irrelevant. The tournament standard for SWU is 2 stocks, and losing a stock due to this stage transformation because you have next to no options due to the center platform and conveyor belt while your opponent has all the tools to read your limited recovery options and hit you with a kill move is not acceptable. PS1 dissuaded fighting, but at least it was of neutral benefit for both players.

Edit:

Also, even though I think engaging BPC is a waste of time, he brings up a point that I want to address in the opening post. What specifically does legalizing Pokemon Stadium 2 bring? To my understanding the argument proposed is that it brings "depth", but how does it do this? It does this by demanding a set of skills of the players (being adept at fighting in a floaty environment, and a frictionless environment) that is unique to this stage. And I mean, that's fine and all. But people need to realize that this is a skill set only required for this one specific stage; it's a niche skill set. Are players going to utilize these skills anywhere else? No. So do the benefits of legalizing this stage outweigh the problems I've just outlined?

In my opinion it's up to the players who want this stage legal to justify their reasons as to why the majority to change their mind and decide to allow it in tournaments, and showcasing the ability to play on ice and a moon like environment are not good reasons given the problems that come with it.

 

[Jaxas]

Just because a player leaves the center stage on to the conveyor belt to edge guard does not mean they suddenly lost their advantage. I specifically said anyone closest to the center has the edge, and it's true. Characters are more than able to edge guard a character that is on the ledge and trying to get back on without themselves being thrown off by the belt because they're not having to fight against the belt and their opponent. Floaty characters or characters with multiple jumps in particular have an easy time with this, though most characters can do it just fine.

30 seconds is a long time. The idea that this is transitional to me is irrelevant. The tournament standard for SWU is 2 stocks, and losing a stock due to this stage transformation because you have next to no options due to the center platform and conveyor belt while your opponent has all the tools to read your limited recovery options and hit you with a kill move is not acceptable. PS1 dissuaded fighting, but at least it was of neutral benefit for both players.

All right, I can definitely see what you're saying. And yeah, multi-jump characters would get a big advantage there.

The point I'd like to argue, however, is that my leaving center stage (under the 2 platforms) you're lessening your stage control; it's still there of course, as it would be on any other stage, but it's no longer absolute and oppressive. Your opponent now (theoretically; not if you're Mac/Ganon/etc) has the ability to jump to the platforms to escape punishment, and you have to get back there before they take control of the SuperArea(tm).

Also, yes it being transitional is important because it goes away after 30 seconds, but it's also important because you have an alert (the screen in the background) and the whole transitionary phase to claim that stage control; both players theoretically have the same chance of getting it, and if your character can't get/keep stage control very (and can't stall for 30sec) well then you should probably ban Stadium against characters that are good at that. Again, it's really just a temporary, super-concentrated version of the stage control (and on-stage ledgeguarding) that happens on every stage.

 

[Ulevo]

"Absolute" is a strong word, but you still have a very strong advantage even if you leave center stage. Your opponent has to jump. They can't get up or get up attack from the ledge because it shoves them off again. Rolling can work but depending on the character roll it isn't effective nor is it safe to do. This means ledge drop double jump or ledge jump are your two main options, both of which require mostly the same thing. This is the problem. When your opponent knows how you're going to recover from the ledge, they get a near guaranteed follow up. This will lead to either a big percentage gain or a kill in most cases.

 

[Jaxas]

"Absolute" is a strong word, but you still have a very strong advantage even if you leave center stage. Your opponent has to jump. They can't get up or get up attack from the ledge because it shoves them off again. Rolling can work but depending on the character roll it isn't effective nor is it safe to do. This means ledge drop double jump or ledge jump are your two main options, both of which require mostly the same thing. This is the problem. When your opponent knows how you're going to recover from the ledge, they get a near guaranteed follow up. This will lead to either a big percentage gain or a kill in most cases.

Yeah, that's all true (though I'd like to add that some characters can get-up-attack and get the hitbox out, then retreat thanks to the treadmill so it's technically safe on shield, which is hilarious).

I guess I'm just saying that I don't feel like that's something that warrant a stage ban, as it would were it random who it favored, because it alerts the players as to when the transformation is coming. That's just a difference in where we draw the line though, and (unfortunately) there's no truly objective way to determine legal stages (past a certain dead-zone, anyways).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just because a player leaves the center stage on to the conveyor belt to edge guard does not mean they suddenly lost their advantage. I specifically said anyone closest to the center has the edge, and it's true. Characters are more than able to edge guard a character that is on the ledge and trying to get back on without themselves being thrown off by the belt because they're not having to fight against the belt and their opponent. Floaty characters or characters with multiple jumps in particular have an easy time with this, though most characters can do it just fine.

30 seconds is a long time. The idea that this is transitional to me is irrelevant. The tournament standard for SWU is 2 stocks, and losing a stock due to this stage transformation because you have next to no options due to the center platform and conveyor belt while your opponent has all the tools to read your limited recovery options and hit you with a kill move is not acceptable. PS1 dissuaded fighting, but at least it was of neutral benefit for both players.

And in practice, if you're losing a stock due to this segment, you still got outplayed, and you might need to adapt.

I encourage anyone - learn how to play on this stage, abuse it, put up a video showing how broken this is on a character who isn't ****ed silly by anything more complex than Smashville. I'll paypal you a tenner. Seriously. Or better yet, play me online and screw me over. Hell, I'll even pick Little Mac to make it easy on you.

But from my experience, what Ulevo is describing doesn't happen. If you're on the ledge and your opponent is in the middle, you can ledge roll, drop and jump onto the stage, or ledgehop. From there, you're on the bands and your opponent is in the middle. They can keep camping, or they can leave their fortified position to go after you, at which point it's no longer particularly advantageous. If your character is mobile enough, you can move to the top platform in the center, which places you below your opponent, a position we all know all too well from, say, battlefield, and which isn't that abysmal, especially when the platform in question is going away soon. If you're on the left ledge, you can go onto the platform hanging around over the bands, which is another pretty decent option.

Also, even though I think engaging BPC is a waste of time, he brings up a point that I want to address in the opening post. What specifically does legalizing Pokemon Stadium 2 bring? To my understanding the argument proposed is that it brings "depth", but how does it do this? It does this by demanding a set of skills of the players (being adept at fighting in a floaty environment, and a frictionless environment) that is unique to this stage. And I mean, that's fine and all. But people need to realize that this is a skill set only required for this one specific stage; it's a niche skill set. Are players going to utilize these skills anywhere else? No. So do the benefits of legalizing this stage outweigh the problems I've just outlined?

In my opinion it's up to the players who want this stage legal to justify their reasons as to why the majority to change their mind and decide to allow it in tournaments, and showcasing the ability to play on ice and a moon like environment are not good reasons given the problems that come with it.

Every single stage presents a unique environment for players to adapt to. Battlefield, Smashville, FD; on each of these stages, matchups may play out very differently.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'll just drop this cause otherwise I enjoy PS2 as a CP. Just when it comes to running into people that want to win, they'll camp you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RXfxrdf12E#t=16m50s

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'll just drop this cause otherwise I enjoy PS2 as a CP. Just when it comes to running into people that want to win, they'll camp you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RXfxrdf12E#t=16m50s

That was actually ridiculously hype at the end.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The venue exploded when that happened. The entire set was hype, especially the little mac comeback on skyloft.

 

[Terotrous]

Pokemon Stadium 2 is the prime example of a stage that encourages player adaptation without degenerate game states. A player adapting optimally to the stage still needs to be really, really good at this game. They need all the same skills they need on any other stage, plus they have to understand how to fight in a low-gravity state, plus they need to know how lowered traction affects their character, plus they need to figure out how to maneuver around the rollers.

How is camping the middle of the electric transformation not degenerate? It's pretty unapproachable for a lot of characters thanks to the stupid rollers.

Ground transformation is very campable too.


I think a good way to look at this stage is to ask yourself "If PS2 didn't transform, but instead picked one of its transformations randomly at the start of the match and stayed that way the whole time, would it be anywhere near legal?" I think the unquestionable answer is no. The ice transformation is the closest to being tolerable, but they're all quite disruptive and generally degenerate for the most part. True, some of the other travelling stages have a couple poor stops, but none of them are 75% bad stops.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How is camping the middle of the electric transformation not degenerate? It's pretty unapproachable for a lot of characters thanks to the stupid rollers.

Because a strengthened camping position that's around for an average of 30 seconds per match is simply not broken. Congratulations, you have a fortified position. I'm just going to wait until it goes away.

I think a good way to look at this stage is to ask yourself "If PS2 didn't transform, but instead picked one of its transformations randomly at the start of the match and stayed that way the whole time, would it be anywhere near legal?" I think the unquestionable answer is no. The ice transformation is the closest to being tolerable, but they're all quite disruptive and generally degenerate for the most part. True, some of the other travelling stages have a couple poor stops, but none of them are 75% bad stops.

By that criteria, we'd ban Skyloft, Wuhu, Delfino, and Castle Siege. So literally every other transforming stage as well.

I wonder about your definition of degenerate - what, exactly, is degenerate about 30 seconds of it being hard (not impossible, just hard) to approach? Was that degenerate on Pokemon Stadium 1, where you had 2 segments where it was virtually impossible to approach? I don't think so.

What, exactly, is degenerate about 30 seconds of lowered gravity? It's awkward, but once you adapt to it, there's really nothing wrong there, other than the possibility of the occasional quick kill if your opponent doesn't know how to handle it. ZSS can get a little stupid if she can land a grab, but she has to land a grab to do anything there - almost all her other approaches are stopped dead by making it impossible to SHFF aerials.

Again, I'd like to see some video evidence of degenerate play on this stage. I haven't seen it yet. That time-out between Denti and Espy? It almost certainly would have happened on Pokemon Stadium 1, and neither player did much to make use of the air segment - I feel like sonic could have gotten much more out of that if he had gone in.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be fair, we also have 7 minutes in TX for some reason as opposed to 8 minutes. I can say with utmost certainty that if we had the regular 8 minute timer, there'd be next to no timeouts, cause so far most of the timeouts that have happened they're on their last stock around 110+%

Also wanted to bring up the electric transformation has a platform on the left side, soooooo why is this transformation bad again outside of conveyor belts?

 

[Terotrous]

Because a strengthened camping position that's around for an average of 30 seconds per match is simply not broken. Congratulations, you have a fortified position. I'm just going to wait until it goes away.

That sounds great until you consider that the Ground and Sky transformations also frequently end up having people wait them out. Now it's more like 1 minute per match rather than just 30 seconds, which is a fair bit in a 5 minute match.

By that criteria, we'd ban Skyloft, Wuhu, Delfino, and Castle Siege. So literally every other transforming stage as well.

Skyloft, Delfino, and Wuhu have a much lower rate of degenerate stops, though that IS the logic they use to ban Wuhu. For Castle Siege I think you can make some case for it based on the second transformation, but I don't care about it quite as much.

I wonder about your definition of degenerate - what, exactly, is degenerate about 30 seconds of it being hard (not impossible, just hard) to approach? Was that degenerate on Pokemon Stadium 1, where you had 2 segments where it was virtually impossible to approach? I don't think so.

Yes, no question. Pokemon Stadium 1 is even worse and would never have been legal if Melee didn't only have 5 good stages. I was pushing to ban this horrible stage in PM from Day 1.

What, exactly, is degenerate about 30 seconds of lowered gravity? It's awkward, but once you adapt to it, there's really nothing wrong there, other than the possibility of the occasional quick kill if your opponent doesn't know how to handle it. ZSS can get a little stupid if she can land a grab, but she has to land a grab to do anything there - almost all her other approaches are stopped dead by making it impossible to SHFF aerials.

The bigger problem with the gravity is that it frequently results in a situation where the players literally can't hit each other for 5-10 seconds while they wait to get back to the stage. Also, I think the most abusive character here would be Ness with PK Thunder. If you use the transcendent version (so no clanking it), it's basically just free hits until the thing goes away, you can't fastfall fast enough to get out.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That sounds great until you consider that the Ground and Sky transformations also frequently end up having people wait them out. Now it's more like 1 minute per match rather than just 30 seconds, which is a fair bit in a 5 minute match.

This isn't EVO. So 6/7/8 minutes is what most people have.

Skyloft, Delfino, and Wuhu have a much lower rate of degenerate stops, though that IS the logic they use to ban Wuhu. For Castle Siege I think you can make some case for it based on the second transformation, but I don't care about it quite as much.

Skyloft Delfino and Wuhu either have 1. walkoffs 2. Terrain that hits you or 3. A place to camp for the entirety of the transformation.
Skyloft has all three, Delfino two and wuhu all three.