Why should you use SHLs as fox?

[XAQ]

if there's no flinching, then wouldn't using them in a full jump or on the ground be better? maybe?

 

[omgwtfToph]

cuz theyre faster?

 

[Animal]

pretty much alot less punishable, since they have no stun or knockback on them someone can just rush you full jump

 

[RaynEX]

if there's no flinching, then wouldn't using them in a full jump or on the ground be better? maybe?

-Using lasers on the ground leaves you open to attack.

-Full-jump laser is good, but most of them miss. Its good for characters that have slow recoveries and are coming back to the stage from high in the air. Also good against characters that stay in the air/platforms/SH alot (Peach, Sheik, Ganon, Jiggs, etc.)

-SHL is good because you get free damage, but you never put yourself at risk. The animation of Fox putting his gun back into his holster is canceled by his landing animation. Every single hit is a step closer to an usmash or stock-depleting grab.

If you're going to SHL for mobility and damage purposes, then learn to SHDL. It makes NO sense to do SHL. Same strategy, same benefits, more lasers. Learn it, love it.

 

[XAQ]

i've seen alot of people in vids use shdls, but when i try they usualy miss because my opponent jumps

 

[RaynEX]

Great. Do you understand why its better than the other methods of lasering?

 

[mastermoo420]

Another important key is that you camp and apply pressure (especially to characters without projectiles such as Marth and Falcon. Applies to Peach, even, because her turnips aren't that fast and you can react pretty easily to them).

And why is SHDL better for mobility purposes? Never heard this before. o_O

And, if you're going to learn to SHDL, if you're going to use X/Y, you might as well incorporate more double-shines into your game since the timing is the exact same thing.

 

[Nihonjin]

This can't be a serious thread.
I refuse to believe anyone would argue standing lasers > SHL with a straight face.

 

[mastermoo420]

This guy only has 74 posts and has a Brawl friend-code. You never know.

 

[XAQ]

well, i joined a week ago, and i actually am seroius about standing lasers vs SHLs because although shls are more versatile, standing lasers are simply easier.

 

[mastermoo420]

I made this point before somewhere. I'll bring it up again: don't be lazy. Just a disclaimer before I start: I don't mean to offend, either. But Melee isn't a game where you can afford to be lazy and just do things that are "simply easier." Not L-canceling is simply easier because you don't have to worry about if you get it or not. Not teching is simply easier because you don't have to worry about timing it and hoping you get it. I swear, I think if I was playing a Fox who spammed his lasers without SH'ing them, I could just go Falcon and SH behind them and Punch them. If they spam without thinking and until they notice I'm behind them, I think that's a legit tactic.

tl;dr - can't be lazy in Melee unless you're Mango

 

[12345678910]

well, i joined a week ago, and i actually am seroius about standing lasers vs SHLs because although shls are more versatile, standing lasers are simply easier.

Standing lasers are just inferior to SHLs. SHLs should be a very natural thing to do. If you can't short hop as fox and press B, then I am sure you can't attempt at using any of his aerial approaches. Even if you play brawl, using "easier" tactics doesn't necessarily make them any better against other more difficult techniques to use that are strictly better. It's assumed any average player can take advantage of these basic techniques. Like Rayex said, full jump lasers do have their advantages in certain situations while I could be hard pressed to find situations where you would do standing laser over SHL or even SHDL.

You should look around threads and guides more before you keep making all these threads. You know there's the advice / questions thread for these little things under here for fox.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=98202

 

[XAQ]

i totally agree that falcos SHLs are much better than standing ones, partially becuase they interrupt jumping, and because they're easier to hit your opponent with. but its often hard for me to reliably do SHDLs with fox and hit my target

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Briefly what are the pros and cons of SHDL vs SHL when spamming (not asking about horizontal mobility)???

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

isn't SHL better for mobility and safety because you're in the air for 9 less frames?

 

[Aves]

i totally agree that falcos SHLs are much better than standing ones, partially becuase they interrupt jumping, and because they're easier to hit your opponent with. but its often hard for me to reliably do SHDLs with fox and hit my target

You just have to practice. And if you're really struggling, it might help to get it down with Falco first. It's a lot easier.

Briefly what are the pros and cons of SHDL vs SHL when spamming (not asking about horizontal mobility)???

SHDL is twice the lasers, and twice the damage. SHL is just a lot easier to pull off. But like somebody else said above, you can't afford to be lazy! It just takes a lot of practice.

 

[mastermoo420]

SHDL:

Pros:

- Double the damage
- Double damage = double pressure? lol idk
- Looks cooler​

Cons:

- Harder to be consistent
- More frames in the air
- Using control-stick (which, imo, is easier) deprives you of a lot of mobility. If you can do with X/Y, then you're good enough to double-shine so use that, too.
​

SHL:

Pros:

- Applies decent pressure - definitely enough to get someone with no projectile running towards you
- Easy to do
- Faster to do than SHDL due to the FF which means SHDL != double damage since SHLs come out with more frequency
- Safer due to less time in air and easier to react
- All the cool kids except for M2K do it​

Cons:

- Less damage (but c'mon, you should SHL for pressure mainly, anyways)
- Doesn't look as cool
​

That's all I could think of.

 

[RaynEX]

When I said mobility purposes, I didn't mean that SHDL was faster or whatever.

I meant that if you plan on running around and shooting them (being mobile), better to do it in a way that deals more damage i.e.: makes it worth your time to camp.

SHL is easier, but the single laser doesn't do enough damage to serve a purpose. SHDL actually becomes useful if you connect it at least 3 times. That's over 30% I think.

 

[KirbyKaze]

SHDL does like 11% if you hit it 3 times starting with fresh lasers.

SHL does like 6% if you hit 3 times starting with fresh lasers.

 

[RaynEX]

If you hit 3 seperate SHDLs with BOTH lasers, it only does 11%?

lol bull**** david

 

[L/A/W]

theres literally no way that six lasers do 30 damage lol

 

[RaynEX]

Yeah, I tried it last night. They're so much weaker than I thought.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Ok thanks for answering my question. So if I am learning fox and I use x/y to jump and I can double laser relatively fluidly... I should prob stick to SHDL right? I am just as comfortable doing either one and more likely to connect if two come out instead of one.

9 frames can make or break you if you're pulling them off and and your opponent makes a beeline for you all of a sudden tho...

Im still stickin with SHDL (its good double shine practice... which is much harder)

 

[Lovage]

shdl sucks ****

except against like ganon and samus

everyone else only 1 laser hits so there's no point

shl is much faster and gives you more mobility

 

[XAQ]

I've noticed that Even SHLs are sometimes too high to hit pichu

 

[Return]

When would you ever need to play against Pichu.
...

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

If you time it right then you can hit Pichu every time... even a ducking Jiggs but thats a lot harder.

And Lovage I guess you would know how much it screws up mobility... Is it a lot? Granted Im not great at mobility as is, I can't tell the difference between SHL and SHDL. The control stick does the exact same thing, just as easily so horizontally, they feel equally as fast other than SHDL may have more frames after landing before the next jump?

 

[Metal Reeper]

XAQ is worse that disturbance.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Do any pros use shdl throughout their entire game?

 

[soldat]

SHDL is cool and all but i find its only really useful against tall slow dudes like ganon or someone.
SHL is just a lot quicker and though it probably does less damage overall its a lot safer and you get more mobility and its a lot easier. but i sometimes find SHL has too much mobility because when doing a retreating one i sometimes fall off stage haha.

 

[mastermoo420]

Oh, speaking of crouching jiggz/pichus and whatnot, I'm usually too lazy to time my SHLs (a john for saying I can't) to hit them so I usually SHDL and the lower one always hits them. I mean, if they're just ducking, trying to wait it out, I might as well.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

If any character is camping a particular spot, SHDL may be better for barraging them with lasers to make them leave. If they stay then 2 lasers may hit better than one

 

[XAQ]

yeah but then they can wavedash over to me, do a combo, and then run away and repaet

 

[makoforce]

yea why'd you do it that close the only way they would get that close to you if your at a range is they would have to be luigi

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I mean if you get enough distance between the two of you, the 9 frame difference between SHL and SHDL shouldn't make a difference. If they penetrate into your "safe zone" which is typically about half a stage or so, then finish whatever you are doing and don't repeat... You should always have enough time to react.

And if you are SHDL in their face then make sure you're able to have good horizontal mobility.

I guess the other issue is finger speed. You may be able to react faster from a SHL compared to a SHDL cause your one finger is bent on hitting that B button twice.

It may even be useful to mix up SHL and SHDL in certain situations if you have the timing ability

 

[XAQ]

well I've noticed that on Falcon if you time the lasers right they will do twice the damage(4 times for shdls)

 

[SwiftBass]

I think SHDL deals mainly with a consistency issue. The margain of error for some SHDL's is really small and can end up in an illusion of stage. Particulary the one where you jump backwards and shoot the opposite direction. Its hard enough worry about spacing the opponent and worrying about how they will react....pushing your execution threshold in tourney is not always a good idea. The reward for executing is POSSIBLY one extra lazer which I do not think is enough for the trouble its worth. Its not even a guaranteed lazer on the whole cast standing, let alone the whole cast while they are moving. I selectively choose when to SHDL because of this.


I only SHDL when they are far enough out of range to the point where they cannot do anything and like when they are off stage.(or if a jiggly is ducking on the other side of the stage.) That way i never have to do a SHDL like the one described above(fade away SHDL is what i call it). I try to not lazer in singles as much as possible.(ESPECIALLY IN FRIENDLIES) there is no need when you have a million options and answers for every matchup in the game. Why shoot lazers when you can be within someones comfort zone exercising matchup concepts.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol bull**** david

I'll let you do the math

3 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2

Does that equal 30?

If someone is across the stage and trying to laser camp you in Fox ditto and you don't feel like approaching you can SHDL and hit them with one laser when they're airborne and the other while they're falling. It will outpace a SHL. But that's dumb anyway because laser camping doesn't really work that great in Fox vs Fox.

I also think SHDL is okay for racking damage on Puff if she's moving with SHs a lot.

Both lasers will hit Peach. Which is kind of cool. But she's usually dashing or floating so not really.

Edit:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2706216&postcount=1

^ Information on when both lasers will hit the opponent.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I only SHDL when they are far enough out of range to the point where they cannot do anything and like when they are off stage.(or if a jiggly is ducking on the other side of the stage.) That way i never have to do a SHDL like the one described above(fade away SHDL is what i call it). I try to not lazer in singles as much as possible.(ESPECIALLY IN FRIENDLIES) there is no need when you have a million options and answers for every matchup in the game. Why shoot lazers when you can be within someones comfort zone exercising matchup concepts.

Excellent point. I pretty much agree cept against falco

 

[MT_]

Am I the only one that things SHL (with fast falling) is MUCH harder than SHDL? I can SHDL with amazing consistency but when I try to SHFFL things just get jumbled for me.