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Why Meta Knight Makes Bad Players Good, and Good Players Great. [Unfinished.]

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-Ran

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Contributors:
JackKieser - Proofreading.
UTD Zac - Proofreading

Status: 10% complete - Not to be finished.
Preface:
Whenever I started the MK temp Ban group months ago, I decided that the best method of increasing awareness of how GOOD Meta Knight was would be to write an extensive document detailing all of the information that was available. The goal was to create a stone solid article that would have few possible points of contention, if any at all. Every bit of information that I was going to place in the document was going to be the truth with evidence to back up each and every account. It was truly meant to be the end-all reference to Meta Knight's place in the Metagame.

Unfortunately, my attention wained from the subject, so I have instead simply decided to post the framework of the document to hopefully inspire someone else to finish the document. I personally just reached a point where I realized that the education of the layman isn't important when it comes to competitive Brawl. My view has shifted that only a handful of already informed individuals are in control of the current Metagame. By no means is this thread about banning Meta Knight, it is about detailing the strengths of MK relative to the Metagame that we play in. Do not post about banning MK. If anyone wants to pick up this document, they are welcome to. Please remember, anything that you read beyond this point is an unfinished document. At the same time, I feel that the document is just wasting away on my hard drive, so it wouldn't hurt to make it public.

-------------------------

Before I begin, I suppose I should come forward about the origin of this document. Originally, I planned to write a tutorial on how to become better at Brawl. The guide was meant to open the eyes of players into viewing Brawl in segments, rather than a single lump sum affair. Unfortunately, the further I broke down the game the more I realized how Meta Knights prominence was achieved so readily. You see, it was my goal to show players how to find their short comings in the game, yet I couldn’t help but end every single paragraph with the musing in the back of my mind that simply switching to Meta Knight would render a phase superficial.

Briefly the Phases of Brawl:
Character Selection - Counter Picking
Stage Selection - Avoidance of traps and gimmicks
The First Stock - Setting the Tempo with an early lead.
Edge Guarding - Denying your opponent the ability to get back on stage.
Recovering - The ability to return to the stage without incurring damage.
Punishment/Risk - Dishing out damage while being safe.
Taking a Stock - Either through brute force or a ‘gimp’.
Space Control - The ability to deny area.
Neutrality+ - The ability to return to a neutral or positive posture.
Defense - Maintaining the lead.
Offense - Building damage and making a comeback.

If we strip down Brawl to the essence of what every match is, the above is what we would derive. These eleven phases sum up the experience of a competitive level match as agreed upon by professional level players that I have held discussions with. Everything within a match hinges on a player executing each of those fundamental phases of Brawl at a level of proficiency. Thus, matches are won and lost based upon the grasp the players have of them. Yet, there is something mysterious about Meta Knight that allows him, almost without fail, to make players better if they decide to main him. I would like to submit that Meta Knight’s dominance stems from his ability to invalidate most of the areas of expertise in the game.

Even a layman could, without much deliberation, agree that of the above eleven, Meta Knight is ‘immune’ or highly resistant to six of the phases due to his various abilities: Character Selection, Stage Selection, Edge Guarding, Recovering, Punishment, and Space Control. At a glance, Meta Knight is beyond fifty-four percent of the states of the game. I shall now take the time to examine each of the eleven, in depth, and find just how many of the phases Meta Knight dominates, or ignores completely.

Which characters are selected can, in some cases, decide a match’s outcome before a single blow has been exchanged. In any fighting game, certain characters have qualities that make them perform better in particular match ups. The characters that are coveted as the best in the game are the ones that have the most matches in their favor due to the various abilities that they have. Typically, a character will have multiple match ups that aren’t in their favor, but Meta Knight as a character simply doesn’t.

The art of carefully picking a character and balancing the weaknesses and strengths of the match up is completely lost when someone is using Meta Knight. Though some match ups play out differently in terms of what moves are relied on, he is never dominated by another character. For many players, Meta Knight was once their secondary that evolved in the shadow of their primary character. They had picked Meta Knight as such, because they needed coverage from the poor match ups of their character; if a Pikachu player found himself playing against a Marth, he could switch to Meta Knight and instantly turn the match in his favor.

Meta Knight is the solution to Character Selection. Most characters require perfect execution against Meta Knight just to keep the match up even, while Meta Knight’s most basic tools apply to most of the cast. Even though Meta Knight isn’t always the best choice against a character, such as going King Dedede vs Donkey Kong, he is never a poor choice. The constant juggling of counter-picking is nullified when all you have to worry about is playing as one character who dominates all but a few of the competition.

Most characters rely on certain stage features to perform adequately, even high tier characters. No one would argue with you if you told them that Diddy plays his best on a stage with a level playing surface, or that Marth performs significantly better with platforms. Every character has certain aspects of stage design that they work best with. Stage selection for Meta Knight, on the other hand, focuses simply on avoiding stages his opponent does well on, since he operates optimally on almost every stage in the game; the worst case scenario when fighting Meta Knight is that he utilizes a stage’s features better than your character does.

With his multiple jumps and numerous methods of recovery, Meta Knight has no need to worry about the pressure that stage transitions or hazards can cause; it is quite easy for him to simply avoid them. Give Meta Knight platforms, and he’ll juggle his opponents better than they could hope to juggle him. Remove the ‘solid ground’ from a stage, and he’ll shark with his Up Airs, out of the reach of a counterattack. Pick a stage with smaller boundaries to kill him easier, and he’ll defeat you with aerial shuttle loops instead of going for a gimp.

In the event that Meta Knight wins his first match, his opponent is hard pressed to defeat him with the aid of a stage. Stages with Gimmicks, such as Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and Norfair, are all Meta Knight’s favored levels. All that remains is for his opponent to select a stage that is closest to his best stage (which MK is able to ban). In the event that he loses, Meta Knight is able to pick the above stages and will typically win, unless he is completely out-skilled by his opponent.

For most players, Counter Picking a stage after a loss is one of the most thought filled moments. For example, let’s observe a match between Marth and Rob. On the first match on a neutral, Marth defeated Rob, but knowing the limitations of Marth’s recovery, the Rob player decided to take Marth to Frigate. During the first segment of the stage, the right side of the level has a moving platform that ascends/descends into the air. There is absolutely no edge on that side for Marth to grab upon. Due to this, the Rob play can utilize the stage to get an early gimp on Marth who has an incredibly vertical recovery, but lacks the ability to govern his horizontal progress. This can lead to easy damage for Rob, a window to do a killing smash attack and even shocking gimps at low percent. Rob, given his recovery isn’t at a loss by not having the edge.

As said before, with Meta Knight it is simply a matter of denying your opponent their best stage in the striking process, and banning their best when it comes to their counter-pick. Stage gimmicks won’t work, nor will varied topography. While most characters are looking for aspects of stages that amplify the strengths of their character, Meta Knight remains neutral or better when cast in the light of a different stage.

Ask any top level player, and they’ll tell you that the first stock is the most important one in a match. It determines the tempo of the set, often times setting the players into the roles of attacking and defending. A commanding lead after the first stock allows a player to play exceedingly defensive, without having to approach their opponent. This opens up every defensive option they have, while providing their opponent very few opportunities to bring the game back in their favor. The further the difference in the stocks become, the more risky the loser has to become. Meta Knight as a character is designed to chip and poke away at any window given, while remaining safe.

Though Meta Knight lacks a chain grab to bring in early leads like Falco, his down-throw leads to a plethora of opportunities due to the pressure that Meta Knight can place on an opponent.

Everything that follows is nothing more than a framework to be actually written and added to. This is just brainstorming. Obviously, feel free to add what you needs to be done, and I’ll get to writing it soon.

The First Stock - Setting the Tempo with an early lead.
-Plethora of low percent combos.
-Tornado
-The ability to gimp.
-Ease of stuffing approaches with Shuttle Loop.
-Up air x 4 to tornado death.

Edge Guarding - Denying your opponent the ability to get back on stage.
-Up air to bait air dodge, to dair to send to low trajectory.
-Multiple jumps to continue to pressure the opponent.
-Aerial kill moves of Nair and Shuttle Loop.
-Insane ability to work off the edge [and deny it.]
-Multiple recoveries to avoid being countered.
-Invincible Nair kills most recoveries, or sets them up for a shuttle loop which finishes the job.

Recovering - The ability to return to the stage without incurring damage.
-Multiple jumps.
-Multiple high priority moves that override attacks.
-Multiple directional recovery moves: Tornado, shuttle loop, Drill Rush.
-The ability to Glide to the opposite edge.
-The crazy edge game he has once on the ledge.
-If MK can reach the ledge, he has recovered. Most characters are still in a tenuous situation on the ledge, not MK.
-The constant ability to gimp his opponent, even when recovering.

Punishment - Dishing out damage from poor choices or moves.

Taking a Stock - Either through brute force or a ‘gimp’.
-Down Smash.
-Nair.
-Offstage game.
-Shuttle Loop.
-Gimps
-Glide attack.
-Up Tilt.
-Uair.

Space Control - The ability to deny area.
-Tornado.
-Shuttle Loop.
-Rising Dair, falling Up air.
-F Tilt.
-Grab game to set ups

Neutrality+ - The ability to return to a neutral or positive posture.
-Very little lag in all moves
-Superior roll.
-Air dodge
-Recovery
-Glide
-Multiple Jumps.

Defense - Maintaining the lead.
-Ledge Stalling.
-Up B
-Tornado approaches
-Dair camping
-Shield camping.
-U air Stalling for DI
-Invincible Shuttle Loop

Offense - Making a comeback.
-You can’t ‘airdodge’ away from him, ever. Up air +Up air all day.

Summary Extreme Rough Draft.

Touch on the fact that everyone has to strive to improve in the areas above, but MK players are able to universally ignore most of the aspects of the game in most match ups. Though there are exceptions to the rule, most of them are only from doing a Meta Knight ditto.

Currently, 40% of the top 100 players use MK in some capacity. it should be evident to everyone why this trend has manifested, and why it will continue to occur. Players that are seeking a way to overcome their defeats, can switch to Meta Knight and remove vast portions of the game that they would otherwise have to practice heavily with on their previous character. Instead of having a weakness in those areas, they are able to prey upon the deficiencies of their opponents thanks to the panacea of Meta Knight.

---

DO NOT POST ABOUT BANNING MK. If you wish to discuss the article or add to it, feel free to do so. If your post so much as has the word 'ban' in it, you will compromise the integrity of this thread and result in it being closed.
 

Ripple

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I approve of this.
edit: sorry, read your last part
 

-Ran

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I'll be honest, if this thread is closed then it will simply show the mismanagement of the forum by the moderation staff. This thread isn't about banning MK, but rather the exploration of why he is the current top character in the Metagame. This is a discussion that impacts players beyond simply MK users, which is why the thread belongs in the Tactical discussion section.

Discussion points should be entirely about why [and what] the tools that MK has are effective. Explore him to his fullest.
 

Raziek

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Well, I think perhaps his strongest point is being able to render the counter-pick system null and void.
 

eschemat

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tl;dr

Meta Knight is too good.

Pro Tip: Use Diddy against M2K

:)

Seriously though, it's ridiculous how he can just own without even trying. Doesn't that compromise skill slightly, to the point where you have to be mountains better than the MK player to win?
 

Life

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WTB this for every other character in the game.

Since that's obviously way too big of a project for any individual among us (?), I'll read over this a little more, and more carefully. I'll contribute if I can find anything.

EDIT re Punishment: MK's shuttle loop, f/dtilt, fsmash, and instant dash attack (most chars have a good iDA tho) all come out very quickly (I'm not sure of frame data, IIRC the tilts are frame 5), and that's assuming MK is grounded.
 

z00ted

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God -Ran I'm not **** riding or anything, but you post some of the best **** in the tactical discussion.

Great read.
 

BSP

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A MK player still has to try to win. He's just got so much more going for him that it seems like he's got it made (which he pretty much does if he gets stock 1 first).

I don't think you have to be mountains better than an MK player to win, but you do have to use someone who doesn't lose to him too badly, and you have to play your 100% A game. Mk's got so many options; he can punish pretty much any mistake, so you have to be on your game.

Personally, I think MK can cause less skilled players to beat other higher skilled ones, just because of how safe he is. Ran you should add MK's transcendent priority on nearly all his moves to offense, it's a pretty big deal. Or just mention it in general. If you do something, and MK does something else at the same time, you lose. No question :(. You've seriously got to outplay him to even touch him.
 

eschemat

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OK, I'll use a Chess analogy to explain the situation right now:

Essentially, in Chess, there are many imbalances that determine if your winning. Material is no more important than the space that you have on the board, or the squares that you aren't in control of. No advantage is better than another, it's just when you capitalize it that it's worth something.

It's essentially the same thing. To beat MK, with the character, you have to either be better than MK in a certain part of the game, or have a completely playing style such as Diddy. Wario has a better aerial game. You just have to capitalize on those opportunities to win.
 

Spelt

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Even though this is far from done, it's still obvious you've put a lot of hard work into this.
good ****.
 

HeroMystic

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This was only 10% complete? This is bigger than my college essay.

Great read, though most has already been regurgitated many times.

Personally, I think MK can cause less skilled players to beat other higher skilled ones, just because of how safe he is.
This is correct though, since nearly all of his moves, particularly his aerials, are obnoxiously safe and practically works as a shield.
 

Kewkky

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I can say with just one word, why MK makes bad players good, and good players bad: he's a league or two ahead of the rest of the cast, including the second-best character! whoops that wasn't a word

Still, I guess I could get to reading it once it's finished and structured together in an easier-to-read format. I'm not saying it's boring, but the huge white wall and lack of separations really kills my motivation to read, and drives me off. Take this as some positive criticism to people like me, who would like a way to find what they're looking for easier. ;)

Expect me back here once it's done! It's theoretical brainstorming as far as I can see, but that's what creates ideas as far as I've learned.

One question, though... Why is UTD's name in dark brown? Is it because he's an administrator, or BBR member, or...?
 

Zankoku

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I'll be honest, if this thread is closed then it will simply show the mismanagement of the forum by the moderation staff.
I'm trying to keep threadlocks to a minimum, but I do have to point out that, with the number of new threads today involving banning, Meta Knight, and a combination of the two, all this can easily be seen as a massive attempt at testing the bounds and patience of staff.
 

Hylian

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I'm trying to keep threadlocks to a minimum, but I do have to point out that, with the number of new threads today involving banning, Meta Knight, and a combination of the two, all this can easily be seen as a massive attempt at testing the bounds and patience of staff.
Pretty much this.

Also, this thread is entirely about metaknight. Why isn't it in the metaknight forums?
 

SuSa

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I'm trying to keep threadlocks to a minimum, but I do have to point out that, with the number of new threads today involving banning, Meta Knight, and a combination of the two, all this can easily be seen as a massive attempt at testing the bounds and patience of staff.
Now now, like 5 of those threads were mine.. be fair now to others.

1 = Mistake, I was just on 10 months of hiatus. Forgot about the no ban-mk discussion. Shut down by Omni.

2 = Loophole, shut down by Omni.

3 = Community House; shut down by Hylian - discussed in staffer shack, resolved for the most part.

4 = I quoted PM's from Pierce and got
Susa you're a douche.
a negative response. This was poorly done, but nothing was essentially wrong with the thread (as far as discussion pertained... the way I went around it + the response was horrible). Shut down by Pierce.

5 = I reworked the entire thread to present my argument, but let two sentences slip, get taken SLIGHTLY out of context, and the thread got locked by Omni. I've rewritten parts of it and and completel removed certain aspects of it. This has been taken care of by staff. [Shut down by Omni]


So don't go blaming the community for how far they're testing staff. When it's majorly my fault, although 3 of them weren't so much about the MK ban.... 3 was somewhat unwarranted of a shut down and makes the idea much harder, but I'll go the route Hylian stated to. 4 was just a **** up on my part, it was EXTREMELY rude and was closed for that reasons + the flaming of me that went on. 5 was a mistake and I've rewritten the thread to be OK, I removed the problem paragraph + rewritten a few sentences that may lead to the wrong impression.
 

Zankoku

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If you'd like me to revise that to "SuSa is testing the staff" I'd be completely fine with giving credit where credit is due.
 

Tesh

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It seems almost as if people WANT to talk about "him". Perhaps we just need more people to keep SuSa quiet.
 

etecoon

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SuSa might have initiated it but the timing of this thread is pretty suspect because of that tbh, it might be coincidence but I'd have waited a few days on this

that being said MK is the best character and is in his own tier, of course he augments anyone's abilities. I'd disagree that he completely bypasses all weaknesses in every phase of the game though, for instance yes some characters can actually ledge trap MK pretty well. this requires him to actually want to get on stage and we know he can plank, but with a good LGL he can't really afford to stay there forever
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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your post is too long and I didn't bother reading it however, I'd like you to name these bad players that MK has made good.
 

Tesh

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People are never going to shut up about how LGLs are wrong and that they don't work. Any viable solution will be shot down in favor of adding green greens or changing the damage ratio.
 

etecoon

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you know, I do agree that MK artificially inflates peoples skill, but that is a point. I don't think he makes bad players good, he can make good players great, but I haven't seen like a completely horrible MK have ANY degree of success. name names plz
 

iRJi

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Pretty much this.

Also, this thread is entirely about metaknight. Why isn't it in the metaknight forums?
Because while it is about metaknight, it is the analogy behind it as well as the character it's self. the info that is provided here applies to all players and not just Metaknight mains, and therefore also has a right to be here as well.
 

SuSa

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If you'd like me to revise that to "SuSa is testing the staff" I'd be completely fine with giving credit where credit is due.
I don't want the community blamed largely for actions which you know are mostly mine.

That being said, I only meant to test staff 1 time. That was with the loophole thread, the other 3 were brought up in staffer shack/forum support.

I still don't care what staff thinks about me. :) I care more for the community.


It seems almost as if people WANT to talk about "him". Perhaps we just need more people to keep SuSa quiet.
They do, but nobody has the balls to do so. Seems like everyone got a vis... wow I can't spell that word....People seemed to have gotten neutured (wow, can't spell that one either? =| ) at some point.

Also it's not just me. Many people are agreeing with me, but it's my methods that were causing the largest issue. Up until my last thread I was going about things the completely backwards and non-productive way possible.

Just because I let one sentence slip to try to make a point, it got locked. I fixed it and rewrote it, which is more than what an admin said was needed (which was just the removal of one paragraph, more specifically - one sentence)
 

uhmuzing

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SuSa is cool and doesn't afraid of anything.

This deal with banning all discussion about MK is pretty lame though. Obviously he's a huge *** part of the metagame and more than deserves to be a topic of debate, especially considering how many people seem to want to talk about him.
 

etecoon

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character specific things are supposed to go in character boards

they should make an exception for MK anyway though and allow an MK topic because pro-ban has a vindictive mindset where they feel the need to make ANY discussion no matter how irrelevant about MK, frankly it needs to be quarantined somewhere(see: last MK ban topic turning into a pro-ban circle jerk while the non-crazy people ignored them)
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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character specific things are supposed to go in character boards

they should make an exception for MK anyway though and allow an MK topic because pro-ban has a vindictive mindset where they feel the need to make ANY discussion no matter how irrelevant about MK, frankly it needs to be quarantined somewhere(see: last MK ban topic turning into a pro-ban circle jerk while the non-crazy people ignored them)
Careful how you word this.
 

Omni

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character specific things are supposed to go in character boards

they should make an exception for MK anyway though and allow an MK topic because pro-ban has a vindictive mindset where they feel the need to make ANY discussion no matter how irrelevant about MK, frankly it needs to be quarantined somewhere(see: last MK ban topic turning into a pro-ban circle jerk while the non-crazy people ignored them)
We did. Just take a look at the history of this specific forum and see how many MK discussions were created that spiraled into heated flame wars. Which was why during the time this was established:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263165

A thread where everyone can discuss Meta Knight. Was open for 6 months and closed down several times at a time. Eventually it got so bad that we had to close the only MK discussion thread which is why the regulation is set in place now that no MK ban topics can be created.
 
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your post is too long and I didn't bother reading it however, I'd like you to name these bad players that MK has made good.
So you ended up making a post without even reading. Good grief.
you know, I do agree that MK artificially inflates peoples skill, but that is a point. I don't think he makes bad players good, he can make good players great, but I haven't seen like a completely horrible MK have ANY degree of success. name names plz
I think you might be confusing two seperate groups. Anybody who is better than their opponent by a good margin will beat them no matter that character. The idea of skill > match-ups comes to play there.

Pretty much this whole thread seems to sum up the idea we already knew. "MK is an easy to pick character with enough spammable and safe options that it takes a player of considerable more skill to beat someone who randomly picks up MK." In groups of people of relativelly same skill, MK will come out on top. It takes someone of a higher skill bracket to overcome the MK user. This is not true in all levels of play, but it is true enough in many of them.
 

Coney

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meh, I'm not saying anti ban is less crazy, smarter pro ban people would've avoided that topic too, it was just a black hole.
ee-yohp

basically these threads come from one person's hard work and thought-provoking insight and eventually devolve into "kirbyfan12388392900188 plays metaknight and that big meanie-head kept me from getting fourth seed in a six-man pool, mk is so gay omfg"

i think it's evident that people might wanna start talking MK again; so long as it doesn't devolve into ignorant drivel and anecdotal bull****, as idealistic as that sounds, what's the harm?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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We did. Just take a look at the history of this specific forum and see how many MK discussions were created that spiraled into heated flame wars. Which was why during the time this was established:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263165

A thread where everyone can discuss Meta Knight. Was open for 6 months and closed down several times at a time. Eventually it got so bad that we had to close the only MK discussion thread which is why the regulation is set in place now that no MK ban topics can be created.
meh, I'm not saying anti ban is less crazy, smarter pro ban people would've avoided that topic too, it was just a black hole.

Personally, I would like a thread that allows intelligent people to debate the topic at hand. The last thread had quite a few trolls and people posting disrespectfully towards others which caused the BS flaming.

But since it seems people can't make threads about it, I've stuck to PMs doing research on the topic and social groups, which doesn't help since it's hard for many people to actually voice how they feel when they can't post threads or even let people know they want to do a ban discussion or even provide evidence for one side or the other.

People as of recent have become very very temperamental on the topic at hand, and it's causing the threads to be made because people want to talk about it, and the threads are getting locked.

I'm not going to say that it should be allowed or not again, but this is just my guess on what is going on as of recent.
 

Omni

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Well what it boils down to is the last post Hylian made in the thread that I posted.

This thread is going to stay closed. Any discussion regarding metaknight belongs in the metaknight forums. Any discussion regarding banning him or anything of the sort should be done in social groups. The SBR is not currently holding any votes or discussing metaknight.

I'm sure everyone who has been posting in this or one of the other four threads knows how redundant it gets. All this topic is doing right now is serving to be a playground for trolls and off topic discussion.

You are always free to make social groups to discuss this if you want, but topics about metaknight in anywhere on the forums but the metaknight boards will be closed.

If you have any problems with this you can direct them at me.
So it won't be a surprise to see this debate spiral into what it has consistently done.

That is why your best bet is to simply create a social group and invite "intelligent" people to the discussion.
 

eschemat

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I'd like to apologize for making my thread. It was dumb of me, I just wanted some discussion going on about MK but I didn't notice the Official MK thread... lol.

Anyways, Wario and Diddy are the counters to MK. lol

Wario = camp + **** aerial mobility
Diddy = too fast, too awesome
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Well what it boils down to is the last post Hylian made in the thread that I posted.



So it won't be a surprise to see this debate spiral into what it has consistently done.

That is why your best bet is to simply create a social group and invite "intelligent" people to the discussion.
Alright as a mod, tell me how I can make a group, and advertise for it without breaking the rules, to show support for either debating the issue or to help those who wan to support either side of the debate.
 
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